Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

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Eyeburn
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Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Eyeburn » Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:45 pm

There's no viable alternative to powershifting. There's currently no reason to press rip or rake in a raid for all but 2 fights. There was an attempt made to make bleeds and claw relevant, or what seems like an attempt to make an alternative to powershifting, but it's all too weak.

Rake costs 35 energy for a 9s duration. That's wildly inefficient for damage. It's hard to justify using this even when leveling and questing for that energy:duration ratio. Rip is a bit energy cheaper, does more damage, lasts longer, but costs your combo points. As underwhelming as Ferocious Bite is, it's still better than spending on Rip. Both of feral's rotational bleeds need to be buffed in energy efficiency.

Something needs to be added that allows the bleed build to extend bleed durations and increase bleed damage. Ancient Brutality currently has a completely pointless energy restore effect that should be turned into something for the bleed build. Specifically, it should not only increase bleed damage but cause Claw to extend bleed durations. Then you'd actually have a bleed build that may stand up to powershifting.

In a nutshell, powershifting doesn't have to deal with debuff management, doesn't have to deal with bleed immunities, and can spend all of its combo points on Ferocious Bite. It is a braindead style of dps that players enjoy. To bring a bleed build anywhere near the performance of powershifting, bleed damage needs to be increased and the energy efficiency of using the bleed skills needs to be improved. An additional 3rd bleed to compensate for the loss of the pounce bleed in a raid setting, and in most settings, is another consideration. Please don't just abandon feral to leaning on an ancient oversight to do damage.
Last edited by Eyeburn on Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Grizb37
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Grizb37 » Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:48 pm

'braindead rotation' - powershifting - the most complex rotation to pull off in vanilla.

What's brain dead is just pressing rake rip then slamming claw lmao.

Eyeburn
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Eyeburn » Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:51 pm

Grizb37 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:48 pm 'braindead rotation' - powershifting - the most complex rotation to pull off in vanilla.

What's brain dead is just pressing rake rip then slamming claw lmao.
There's zero complexity or depth to powershifting. You shred until you need to powershift to shred more. You don't manage bleeds, and you don't manage tiger's fury. You literally spam shred while hitting FF on CD to proc omen. Thinking that powershifting is complex, or "the most complex rotation in vanilla" is pure delusion. It's popular because it's simple.

Grizb37
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Grizb37 » Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:57 pm

Eyeburn wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:51 pm
Grizb37 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:48 pm 'braindead rotation' - powershifting - the most complex rotation to pull off in vanilla.

What's brain dead is just pressing rake rip then slamming claw lmao.
There's zero complexity or depth to powershifting. You shred until you need to powershift to shred more. You don't manage bleeds, and you don't manage tiger's fury. You literally spam shred while hitting FF on CD to proc omen. Thinking that powershifting is complex, or "the most complex rotation in vanilla" is pure delusion. It's popular because it's simple.
Imagine thinking managing bleeds is a fun playstyle. It's tedious and that's why no one plays this build. You're not just spamming shred, you have to take into considering when to use TF as to not overcap on energy, whens the right time to use FB so as not to waste combo points, I tried the bleed build and found it tedious and boring, as there's no way to track the bleeds and half the enemies are immune to them.

If you don't want to powershift just play a rogue.

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Gantulga
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Gantulga » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:00 pm

Rogue suffers from the same issue. Bleedings need to actually scale and likely to be able to crit.

Grizb37
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Grizb37 » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:03 pm

Gantulga wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:00 pm Rogue suffers from the same issue. Bleedings need to actually scale and likely to be able to crit.
They won't scale bleeds much more because the reason is too strong in PvP.... Meanwhile we've got arcane mages, shamans and warlocks killing people in 2 spells.

Holy paladins never dying to melee, yet bleeds scaling would be an issue lmao.

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Gantulga
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Gantulga » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:06 pm

Grizb37 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:03 pm
Gantulga wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:00 pm Rogue suffers from the same issue. Bleedings need to actually scale and likely to be able to crit.
They won't scale bleeds much more because the reason is too strong in PvP.... Meanwhile we've got arcane mages, shamans and warlocks killing people in 2 spells.

Holy paladins never dying to melee, yet bleeds scaling would be an issue lmao.
Yeah but warlocks/spriests killing you with a single dot application is ok.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Bigsmerf » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:12 pm

In the scope of vanilla rotations- powershifting is very complicated. That isn't saying much considering 90% of classes are braindead 1 button spammers but I think it's safe to say timing your shifts for maximum energy efficiency and pushing like 3 buttons total takes... Some modicum of brain power. Again, I know, not very complicated, but "Apply bleeds and then claw" isn't a whole lot different, in a vacuum.

Difficulty aside, I would prefer powershifting stay the norm. If "It's too easy grr!!!" is the problem then that's your problem and (more or less) no one else's. People play something because they like it. Not because they hate it. Taking away something people like about a thing is inherently a dumb idea. Something like that should be for when something breaks balance or is universally hated. Powershifting meets neither of those criteria.
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Steakhouse
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Steakhouse » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:37 pm

Once again an interesting suggestion thread about new gameplay ideas gets derailed by pointless namecalling of other playstyles.

I really like the "claw extends bleeds" idea, it even makes sense. Idk if vanilla's client allows for buff/debuff extension other than resetting them completely, but even then, "your claw criticals refresh bleeds" or "clawing while under tiger's fury refreshes bleeds" would be dope. Only caveat to me is that it feels more like post-wotlk gameplay rather than vanilla but that is subjective.
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Fugus
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Fugus » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:45 pm

I don't see why anyone should have an issue with the thought of making the bleed/claw build viable considering they make you actually spec for it and take away talents that could be used for something else.

Then if you like the bleed/claw, go for it, if you like the powershred, go for it. Don't intentionally give us build options that just won't be worth it to even bother and requires you to take away from another build to do.

If they want to give us something that actually takes away from our build that many of us might actually find worth it, all I can say is "Nurturing Instincts".

Atreidon
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Atreidon » Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:55 pm

I heard Kara Bosses have ridiculous armor values.
That alone makes bleed actually attractive :-P

Jokes aside, Its almost impossible for bleed to be buffed to a "fair value" in current raiding content because you loot at situations where you get the maximum of external buffs and steroid abilities and the minimum benefits from bleeds armor ignoring properties.

But i fail to see why bleed should replace powershifting. You aren't limited to one or the other. Even bleed playstile benefits from extra 60 energy on the press of the button occasionally. So these two are not mutually exclusive and therefore don't need to be balanced as if they were

Fugus
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Fugus » Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:12 pm

Atreidon wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:55 pm I heard Kara Bosses have ridiculous armor values.
That alone makes bleed actually attractive :-P

Jokes aside, Its almost impossible for bleed to be buffed to a "fair value" in current raiding content because you loot at situations where you get the maximum of external buffs and steroid abilities and the minimum benefits from bleeds armor ignoring properties.

But i fail to see why bleed should replace powershifting. You aren't limited to one or the other. Even bleed playstile benefits from extra 60 energy on the press of the button occasionally. So these two are not mutually exclusive and therefore don't need to be balanced as if they were
If they hadn't created a talent tree situation where you HAVE to go into one or the other or be completely subpar at bear form I could understand some. But so long as you are stuck choosing one or the other while still keeping your hybrid nature, they kinda have to make them both viable or the other just becomes a waste of space talent points for many players.

Eyeburn
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Eyeburn » Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:32 pm

Grizb37 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:57 pm
Eyeburn wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:51 pm
Grizb37 wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 9:48 pm 'braindead rotation' - powershifting - the most complex rotation to pull off in vanilla.

What's brain dead is just pressing rake rip then slamming claw lmao.
There's zero complexity or depth to powershifting. You shred until you need to powershift to shred more. You don't manage bleeds, and you don't manage tiger's fury. You literally spam shred while hitting FF on CD to proc omen. Thinking that powershifting is complex, or "the most complex rotation in vanilla" is pure delusion. It's popular because it's simple.
Imagine thinking managing bleeds is a fun playstyle. It's tedious and that's why no one plays this build. You're not just spamming shred, you have to take into considering when to use TF as to not overcap on energy, whens the right time to use FB so as not to waste combo points, I tried the bleed build and found it tedious and boring, as there's no way to track the bleeds and half the enemies are immune to them.

If you don't want to powershift just play a rogue.
Imagine reading words that I never said. Why are you so defensive about powershift not being the only way to play feral dps? Why is it such an issue if someone could play bleeds instead and keep up in dps? You could still play powershifting. Very strange.

Eyeburn
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Eyeburn » Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:38 pm

Bigsmerf wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:12 pm In the scope of vanilla rotations- powershifting is very complicated. That isn't saying much considering 90% of classes are braindead 1 button spammers but I think it's safe to say timing your shifts for maximum energy efficiency and pushing like 3 buttons total takes... Some modicum of brain power. Again, I know, not very complicated, but "Apply bleeds and then claw" isn't a whole lot different, in a vacuum.

Difficulty aside, I would prefer powershifting stay the norm. If "It's too easy grr!!!" is the problem then that's your problem and (more or less) no one else's. People play something because they like it. Not because they hate it. Taking away something people like about a thing is inherently a dumb idea. Something like that should be for when something breaks balance or is universally hated. Powershifting meets neither of those criteria.
This sentiment that powershifting has complexity because you look at your current energy value is nonsense. It's not even more complicated that playing fury warrior and choosing to Heroic Strike or not. Powershifting actively disregards the majority of cat's buttons to focus only on shred, and also happens to be the best way to play the spec. There isn't even an argument for tiger's fury because managing it vs ignoring it is largely agreed to be a wash on overall dps. On the long checklist of why powershifting is superior, "ease of use" is right at the top.

Mundane
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Mundane » Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:48 pm

It's kinda weird when you guys speak about bleed rotation and powershifting as 2 separate things. You can powershift while doing bleed rotation, it's obviously a dps gain.

Fugus
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Fugus » Wed Feb 05, 2025 3:34 am

Mundane wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:48 pm It's kinda weird when you guys speak about bleed rotation and powershifting as 2 separate things. You can powershift while doing bleed rotation, it's obviously a dps gain.
Powershifting also removes Tiger's Fury which is also part of the bleed rotation, especially as those bleeds are also supposed to help regenerate energy to help replace the need to powershift.

Edit: One thing that could have been cool is if Rip refreshed the duration on Tiger's Fury so it was one less thing to babysit and build further into the bleed build mindset.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Bigsmerf » Wed Feb 05, 2025 6:36 am

Eyeburn wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 11:38 pm
Bigsmerf wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 10:12 pm In the scope of vanilla rotations- powershifting is very complicated. That isn't saying much considering 90% of classes are braindead 1 button spammers but I think it's safe to say timing your shifts for maximum energy efficiency and pushing like 3 buttons total takes... Some modicum of brain power. Again, I know, not very complicated, but "Apply bleeds and then claw" isn't a whole lot different, in a vacuum.

Difficulty aside, I would prefer powershifting stay the norm. If "It's too easy grr!!!" is the problem then that's your problem and (more or less) no one else's. People play something because they like it. Not because they hate it. Taking away something people like about a thing is inherently a dumb idea. Something like that should be for when something breaks balance or is universally hated. Powershifting meets neither of those criteria.
This sentiment that powershifting has complexity because you look at your current energy value is nonsense. It's not even more complicated that playing fury warrior and choosing to Heroic Strike or not. Powershifting actively disregards the majority of cat's buttons to focus only on shred, and also happens to be the best way to play the spec. There isn't even an argument for tiger's fury because managing it vs ignoring it is largely agreed to be a wash on overall dps. On the long checklist of why powershifting is superior, "ease of use" is right at the top.
In the scope of vanilla. V a n i l l a.

Every class is piss easy to play. My point is that feral is (or more accurately was) on the slightly less braindead end of the spectrum. Complex and slightly less braindead than most classes are two different things. I'm of the opinion that the former is the case. Now? Not so much. Just about everyone's gotten some added depth to their rotation, even if that "depth" is really quite shallow 'cause you're really only getting like one extra button to fuck around with. But- again, I don't see why simplicity is a problem. People clearly like powershifting, because someone wouldn't put themselves through the torture of playing something that outputs middling DPS if they didn't like it enough to disregard the performance gap in comparison to some other classes.

I do like the idea of a second playstyle, all that aside- though. Bleeds feel more retail-y in my opinion, and- while that's a travesty to some, I genuinely could care less so long as what I like stays either A) Untouched, for the most part, or B) Given decent attention. Unfortunately, it kinda hasn't been getting that lately. Turtle team is designing sets and the talents to favor this bleed playstyle more, and it just isn't getting results even despite that. I -want- to see this succeed, but it just isn't, and both playstyles are suffering for it because now we have one playstyle getting more attention and not getting decent mileage while the other is left with considerably less even though it performs better.
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Templar85
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Templar85 » Wed Feb 05, 2025 6:43 am

There are still huge amount of design flaws and holes with druid gameplay and toolkit. I wrote altogether more than 15k words in the last two years what wrong with them in detailed explanation so I won't do again this time.
I link my reworked talent calculator for the people who haven't saw https://talent-builder.haaxor1689.dev/c ... 0000000000

Cat abilities that not explained by the tooltip:

Ravage rework: Ravage doesn't need stealth anymore but can use only on enemies who are above 80% HP. Need to be behind of the target. If casted from stealth then grants 2 combo points

Tigers Fury rework: Increases damage by 50 and +5 damage and +25 armor penetration every 2 second while Energy not reached more than 60 and stayed in Cat form.

Pounce rework: Need to behind of the target and stealth. Stunning it for 2 seconds and reducing their casting speed by 35% for 3 seconds after stun ended, No more leaves bleed effect.

Rake
Energy cost reduced to 30
Duration increased to 16 second.

New Cat attack:
Intimidating Attack 50 energy
Can cast without stealth. Leaves a bleed effect 800 damage over 14 seconds. Damage increased by attack power. Also Decreasing target's attack speed by 5% +1% (Max 10%) each time it attacks and taking 150 damage and +10 damage added for further attacks. Max stacked retaliation damage per enemy attack is 210.

Optimal Bleed Cat rotation does not need stealth opener anymore and can look like this:
Tigers Fury - Ravage - Rake - Pwrshift - Claw - Rip - Pwrshift - Intimidating Attack - Claw - Pwrshift - Tigers Fury - Berserk - Claw - Claw - Claw - Ferocious Bite - Claw - Claw - Claw - Claw- Ferocious Bite

The reason tooltips are long because they are explanatory to the devs how should the spell behave, how they should implement to the game. In the final version designed for the players to read, it can be reduced much shorter, leaving out information elements like Vanilla talents tooltips not fully explaining everything about them.

Jamx72 and Innovatu also made talent proposals
Left side Innovatu, middle Jamx72.
https://talent-builder.haaxor1689.dev/c ... KaoAbY&c=0

There were 2 more people who did good complete rework but I don't find their work anymore :(

Turboman
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Turboman » Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:11 am

Powershifting is an ugly gimmick, a product of bad class design that should've been replaced a long time ago by something straightforward and normal looking, but because of these apologists we don't have a viable alternative for a cat.

Atreidon
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Atreidon » Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:36 am

Noone but the insistence to top dps meters forces you to engage with this ugly gimmick if you dont want to.
ou can play cat with bleed just fine. You can also play rend warrior or spelldamage hunter if thats what you want.

But demanding the powerlevel of a janky gimmik be baked into your class baseline because you dont want to engage with it is a weird request to have.

The whole discussion is over if we just change the energy bar to be prsistent with furor. But i dont see any druid ask for that...

Classic is full of these gimmicks. There are many excellent versions of the game that streamlined the gameplay. Yet we all chose to play the most janky version of the game instead.

Look at the mess paladin has become with the exact same mindset. Having all the power but cant have the jank that comes with it

Fugus
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Fugus » Wed Feb 05, 2025 5:01 pm

One thing that might help.

1) Merge Blood Frenzy into Primal Fury.

2) Blood Freny now becomes, "Anything that increases melee or casting speed also increases bleed tick rates and increase healing by 100% of your agility. Your bleeds still last their full duration".

Would allow your bleeds to scale a little better and also allows their heals to to scale at least someone which is something I genuinely miss from TBC.

Eyeburn
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Eyeburn » Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:02 am

Atreidon wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:36 am Noone but the insistence to top dps meters forces you to engage with this ugly gimmick if you dont want to.
ou can play cat with bleed just fine. You can also play rend warrior or spelldamage hunter if thats what you want.

But demanding the powerlevel of a janky gimmik be baked into your class baseline because you dont want to engage with it is a weird request to have.

The whole discussion is over if we just change the energy bar to be prsistent with furor. But i dont see any druid ask for that...

Classic is full of these gimmicks. There are many excellent versions of the game that streamlined the gameplay. Yet we all chose to play the most janky version of the game instead.

Look at the mess paladin has become with the exact same mindset. Having all the power but cant have the jank that comes with it
Powershifting is the only feral build in turtle WoW, that's the whole problem. The bleed talent effects that have been added don't even come close. Feral dps rotation is beat for beat identical to original vanilla on this server. The biggest changes are QoL around gear, being the MCP and Wolfshead changes. Feral dps is hard stuck in powershifting because on demand shreds are broken in the most accurate use of the term. Feral dps used wolfshead as bis until the end of TBC. It only got dethroned in WotLK because Furor and energy ticking were changed in that xpac. Hell, in WotLK classic, they added a glyph that was just "press FF and get a free shred" to "fix" feral dps. It's a broken interaction of mechanics that people cling to for the nostalgia of beating the system with a bad hand. Just look at the reaction to suggesting an alternate build options, not a replacement, but just an alternative. You get people rabid at the thought that feral dps be something other than shred spam.

It's not janky either, it's the easiest way to play feral, and it's one of the easiest specs to play on turtle. It's just pressing shred and dumping energy scraps into FB before poofing yourself another 60 energy.

Shockoladetwo
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Shockoladetwo » Thu Feb 06, 2025 3:57 am

Bleeds scaling a bit more would rly be nice but i doubt devs will do it... but currently the bleed ticks are a joke =D

Fugus
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Fugus » Thu Feb 06, 2025 9:41 pm

Eyeburn wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:02 amPowershifting is the only feral build in turtle WoW, that's the whole problem. The bleed talent effects that have been added don't even come close. Feral dps rotation is beat for beat identical to original vanilla on this server. The biggest changes are QoL around gear, being the MCP and Wolfshead changes. Feral dps is hard stuck in powershifting because on demand shreds are broken in the most accurate use of the term. Feral dps used wolfshead as bis until the end of TBC. It only got dethroned in WotLK because Furor and energy ticking were changed in that xpac. Hell, in WotLK classic, they added a glyph that was just "press FF and get a free shred" to "fix" feral dps. It's a broken interaction of mechanics that people cling to for the nostalgia of beating the system with a bad hand. Just look at the reaction to suggesting an alternate build options, not a replacement, but just an alternative. You get people rabid at the thought that feral dps be something other than shred spam.

It's not janky either, it's the easiest way to play feral, and it's one of the easiest specs to play on turtle. It's just pressing shred and dumping energy scraps into FB before poofing yourself another 60 energy.
Funny thing is, as much as I loathed what WotLK turned feral druid into (As well as much of the other stuff in the game), I saw that Furor change as an actual improvement. Hated having to powershift for optimum DPS. Typically saved my mana for my actual hybrid stuff like shifting to bear when needed or healing when I could depending on the fight.

If they created another talent that did that and added it to the tree as an alternative, many might actually take it.

Furor of the Lich King: Your energy regenerates even while you are out of form and you keep 100% of it when you go into cat form and retain up to 100% of your rage when you leave bear for. Can only gain rage while in Bear Form and stiill depletes when out of combat. Can't be taken with Furor.

Drubarrymooer
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Drubarrymooer » Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:03 pm

The bleed build was designed to be less effective than powershifting on purpose. Its supposed to offer an alternative to folks who don't want to powershift. It does exactly that. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to sweat and min max a 20 yr old game.

Fugus
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Fugus » Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:57 pm

Drubarrymooer wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:03 pm The bleed build was designed to be less effective than powershifting on purpose. Its supposed to offer an alternative to folks who don't want to powershift. It does exactly that. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to sweat and min max a 20 yr old game.
If its designed to be less effective, then it was designed to NOT be an alternative. If it was designed to be an alternative, then it would be designed to at least hit the same ballpark. That's like saying a Geo Metro was designed to be an alternative to a muscle car for drag racing. It most definitely was not and if it was, they failed at the attempt.

Eyeburn
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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Eyeburn » Fri Feb 07, 2025 2:53 am

Drubarrymooer wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:03 pm The bleed build was designed to be less effective than powershifting on purpose. Its supposed to offer an alternative to folks who don't want to powershift. It does exactly that. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to sweat and min max a 20 yr old game.
Nothing about that logic makes sense as something strictly inferior isn't an alternative playstyle. I'm willing to bet that this is 100% conjecture if not a baseless assumption.

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Re: Feral "bleed build" currently pointless

Post by Fugus » Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:10 am

Also weird how he phrased that.

Was he calling the powershifting build a sweat to min/max? Because if he did, it's far easier than maintaining a bleed build with its biggest issues being managing your mana if you aren't geared enough or get too aggressive with it or when your macro messes up and leave you in caster form because there isn't actually an ability to powershift reliably.

Or what he calling the bleed build sweaty because it definitely would be harder to pull off but it certainly isn't min/maxing if the powershift is superior to it while also being easier.

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