Rogues are weak!

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Du001984
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Du001984 » Mon Dec 02, 2024 5:07 pm

Nowadays, thieves give people a very constipated feeling. A pure DPS profession has fallen to this point

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Neechy
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Neechy » Mon Dec 02, 2024 5:19 pm

Rogues were consistently like 2nd highest dps in vanilla raids after warrior. WTH happened?? Also they were some of the kings of pvp.

Seems like an issue of other classes being buffed too much above baseline, so I would probably prefer curbing back other classes rather than buffing rogues too much. As has been mentioned many times already, there is a player power creep on this server and PvE content is beginning to feel trivial in some cases.

I kind of like that some support abilities were added to the Subtlety tree but I am firmly against the tree becoming exclusively support. It doesn't really fit rogue class fantasy to sacrifice their own interests just to support their allies. Subtlety had some of the best PvP talents in vanilla and I would hope the devs maintain that identity. Maybe just add 2 or 3 support talents so rogues can choose it if they wish to aid in difficult raid encounters.

I don't even play rogue but I am all for returning them to their rightful place as S tier pvp and at least A tier single target dps. But for the love of god PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ROGUES AN AOE. Fan of knives is an abomination as is hunter Carve and any other AoE-ification garbage that cheapens the game and homogenizes class identities.
More details here why abilities like Carve should be removed: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15877

I also just proposed a solution to lack of AoE for rogues/hunters here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=16280
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Bayanni
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Bayanni » Mon Dec 02, 2024 9:38 pm

If the weapon skill thing forcing gear changes is a big part of the issue, then the solution would be to add more weapon skill to rogue tier gear, would it not?

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Scgames12 » Tue Dec 03, 2024 2:34 pm

hi, i actually just made a similar post just now asking about why rogues were nerfed while warriors were heavily buffed, its completely messed up our sign ups we have practically zero rogues and tonnes of warriors, BWL sign ups are an issue and it seems theres really no reason to play rogue we even had an officer just up and Quit after spending a year with us after the patch, im not even a rogue main im a mage but ive noticed how they completely screwed up rogues with the patch, have turtle wow made any kind of announcement regarding if theyre gonna fix the class? before the patch they were worse than wariors and the patch made the gap even wider

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Akos1896 » Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:03 pm

bump
I don't like it if a class is treated unfairly and I think this is the case for rogues.
At least for PVE.
On a PVE server.

Sarai3
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Sarai3 » Tue Dec 03, 2024 4:44 pm

I agree, not sure whether this was the intention, however other classes have been buffed immensely, warrior, mage for example, it's obvious now that rogue needs changes but it's whether we have a representative to care enough to do something.

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:25 pm

Neechy wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 5:19 pm But for the love of god PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ROGUES AN AOE. Fan of knives is an abomination as is hunter Carve and any other AoE-ification garbage that cheapens the game and homogenizes class identities.
More details here why abilities like Carve should be removed: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15877

I also just proposed a solution to lack of AoE for rogues/hunters here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=16280
I disagree on this point. AoE is not a class identity, it's part of a kit. Rogues are possibly the only Class that cannot properly AOE without tools like items and gear.

And the tradeoff for this? Absolutely nothing. I'm not saying to make it baseline, or available for all 3 specs. Just give us something, and Blade Flurry isn't enough as is.

One solution would be to give Fan of Knives to us, another would be to have BF hit more than 1 extra target. Or hell, they could give us a poison that spreads to targets that are close to your target, if they wanted it to be Assassination only. None are too crazy of an ask and it certainly doesn't cheapen anything other than give us an option to remain competitive.
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Bayanni
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Bayanni » Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:03 am

Rogues shouldn't get real AoE because it would further homogenize the classes.

However, this argument's validity hinges on rogues having a role to begin with, and right now that's single target dps that's below warriors, mages, warlocks, paladins, and hunters. They're just above shamans, druids, and priests who all have at least one other role. If they're going to be single-target dps only and no AoE, they need to actually be worth the slot instead of being mid-tier. As is, it is actively a hinderance to raids to bring a rogue over any of the above classes, the only ones that have an argument for being replaced are priest dps (if fear wards/buffs are already covered) and druid dps (if buffs/decurses are covered and Leader of the Pack/Moonkin Aura would be redundant) and only if you don't need them to heal/tank later.

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Neechy
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Neechy » Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:14 am

Piacrt wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:25 pm
Neechy wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 5:19 pm But for the love of god PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ROGUES AN AOE. Fan of knives is an abomination as is hunter Carve and any other AoE-ification garbage that cheapens the game and homogenizes class identities.
More details here why abilities like Carve should be removed: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15877

I also just proposed a solution to lack of AoE for rogues/hunters here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=16280
I disagree on this point. AoE is not a class identity, it's part of a kit. Rogues are possibly the only Class that cannot properly AOE without tools like items and gear.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. I'd say AoE is very much a class identity/fantasy aspect. Think about it. Rogue is the quintessential assassin class - it's whole aesthetic is being stealthy, devious, and dealing deadly critical blows. Hence its design specialization was single targets dps - and the reason the devs should ensure they stay competitive on dps meter. (Also why it's sad to see Subtlety spec gimped so hard)

As a reply from my linked thread puts it:
Bigsmerf wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 7:54 am Rogue just needs to be the best ST DPS. There, I said it. Same goes for feral druids but to a lesser extent because of their hybrid nature and better utility. If you either A) Suck at something, or B) Literally can't do it whatsoever... You should be really really good at another thing to compensate. Right now rogues, by my knowledge, are great at single target damage which sounds cool, but we still have classes that just have better utility doing more or equal-ish damage compared to rogues.
If you disagree with the above and want rogues to not only maintain their vanilla level ranking in pve and pvp, but also now want them to get AoE mechanics on top of that, which was never part of the vanilla design philosophy - then you are looking at wrath+. This is wrath+ philosophy, which added fan of knives, etc. and it is a completely different game from vanilla and even tbc.
Piacrt wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:25 pm And the tradeoff for this? Absolutely nothing. I'm not saying to make it baseline, or available for all 3 specs. Just give us something, and Blade Flurry isn't enough as is.
The tradeoff is opening pandora's box to wrath, SoD, retail, etc. versions of wow, in which pve was trivialized, class identities obfuscated, and playstyles homogenized. "Everyone gets AoE! Everyone gets self heals! Everyone can solo dungeons! Weeee!"

So once again, if you like that then we just have to agree to disagree on what vanilla+ should entail.
Piacrt wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:25 pm One solution would be to give Fan of Knives to us, another would be to have BF hit more than 1 extra target. Or hell, they could give us a poison that spreads to targets that are close to your target, if they wanted it to be Assassination only. None are too crazy of an ask and it certainly doesn't cheapen anything other than give us an option to remain competitive.
I double down on no fan of knives. Gross. BF with 1 extra target maybe..

But I still much prefer the approach of enabling situational AoE playstyles for traditionally single target classes via the use of unique weapon procs. That was the whole point of the post that I linked but you either didn't read it or didn't like it.

I'll repost another reply from there that helps corroborate my points:
Atreidon wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:15 pm These classes are not meant to have good aoe. Arguing they need a aoe is like arguing every class needs a priest shield or the ability to self heal. They have good DPS capability and are in limited amounts able to deal AoE/Cleave damage. But they are not meant to excell at it. For classes to have distinguished strengths, that means other classes need to be weak at the same thing. If every class gets good AoE, why should i play mage?
At the end of the day it really just feels like there is a schism in the community over those who want to preserve vanilla integrity and those who want to keep bending it at the risk of becoming unrecognizable.
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Bigsmerf
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Bigsmerf » Wed Dec 04, 2024 6:03 am

Neechy wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:14 am
Piacrt wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:25 pm
Neechy wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 5:19 pm But for the love of god PLEASE DO NOT GIVE ROGUES AN AOE. Fan of knives is an abomination as is hunter Carve and any other AoE-ification garbage that cheapens the game and homogenizes class identities.
More details here why abilities like Carve should be removed: viewtopic.php?f=45&t=15877

I also just proposed a solution to lack of AoE for rogues/hunters here: viewtopic.php?f=32&t=16280
I disagree on this point. AoE is not a class identity, it's part of a kit. Rogues are possibly the only Class that cannot properly AOE without tools like items and gear.
I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. I'd say AoE is very much a class identity/fantasy aspect. Think about it. Rogue is the quintessential assassin class - it's whole aesthetic is being stealthy, devious, and dealing deadly critical blows. Hence its design specialization was single targets dps - and the reason the devs should ensure they stay competitive on dps meter.

As a reply from my linked thread puts it:
Bigsmerf wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 7:54 am Rogue just needs to be the best ST DPS. There, I said it. Same goes for feral druids but to a lesser extent because of their hybrid nature and better utility. If you either A) Suck at something, or B) Literally can't do it whatsoever... You should be really really good at another thing to compensate. Right now rogues, by my knowledge, are great at single target damage which sounds cool, but we still have classes that just have better utility doing more or equal-ish damage compared to rogues.
If you disagree with the above and want rogues to not only maintain their vanilla level ranking in pve and pvp, but also now want them to get AoE mechanics on top of that, which was never part of the vanilla design philosophy - then you are looking at wrath+. This is wrath+ philosophy, which added fan of knives, etc. and it is a completely different game from vanilla and even tbc.
Piacrt wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:25 pm And the tradeoff for this? Absolutely nothing. I'm not saying to make it baseline, or available for all 3 specs. Just give us something, and Blade Flurry isn't enough as is.
The tradeoff is opening pandora's box to wrath, SoD, retail, etc. versions of wow, in which pve was trivialized, class identities obfuscated, and playstyles homogenized. "Everyone gets AoE! Everyone gets self heals! Everyone can solo dungeons! Weeee!"

So once again, if you like that then we just have to agree to disagree on what vanilla+ should entail.
Piacrt wrote: Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:25 pm One solution would be to give Fan of Knives to us, another would be to have BF hit more than 1 extra target. Or hell, they could give us a poison that spreads to targets that are close to your target, if they wanted it to be Assassination only. None are too crazy of an ask and it certainly doesn't cheapen anything other than give us an option to remain competitive.
I double down on no fan of knives. Gross. BF with 1 extra target maybe..

But I still much prefer the approach of enabling situational AoE playstyles for traditionally single target classes via the use of unique weapon procs. That was the whole point of the post that I linked but you either didn't read it or didn't like it.

I'll repost another reply from there that helps corroborate my points:
Atreidon wrote: Mon Dec 02, 2024 7:15 pm These classes are not meant to have good aoe. Arguing they need a aoe is like arguing every class needs a priest shield or the ability to self heal. They have good DPS capability and are in limited amounts able to deal AoE/Cleave damage. But they are not meant to excell at it. For classes to have distinguished strengths, that means other classes need to be weak at the same thing. If every class gets good AoE, why should i play mage?

Appart from this, there are weapons that deal AoE, so there is the possibility to add further AoE weapons. But nowhere near the powerlevel you propose. The ones below are examples of what powerlevel we look at in comparison.
The twohanders locking you out of doing anything for their procs duration and the one handers being rather tame. 500% weapon damage on a weapon that has endgame stats and no further restrictions? Sounds kinda retail to me

2H
Ravager
The Cruel Blade

1H
Masterwork Stormhammer
Dream's Herald
At the end of the day it really just feels like there is a schism in the community over those who want to preserve vanilla integrity and those who want to keep bending it at the risk of becoming unrecognizable.
I kinda suck at quoting and stuff but I'd like to clarify I'm fine with and would prefer rogue AoE being dogshit, they should simply excel at single target (which they used to, trust me) to compensate for that, which they don't, as I've been told by multiple people in this thread who likely have much more experience/knowledge than me with rogue or just the game in general.
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Wed Dec 04, 2024 6:00 pm

Neechy wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:14 am
I guess we just have to agree to disagree then. I'd say AoE is very much a class identity/fantasy aspect. Think about it. Rogue is the quintessential assassin class - it's whole aesthetic is being stealthy, devious, and dealing deadly critical blows. Hence its design specialization was single targets dps - and the reason the devs should ensure they stay competitive on dps meter. (Also why it's sad to see Subtlety spec gimped so hard)

If you disagree with the above and want rogues to not only maintain their vanilla level ranking in pve and pvp, but also now want them to get AoE mechanics on top of that, which was never part of the vanilla design philosophy - then you are looking at wrath+. This is wrath+ philosophy, which added fan of knives, etc. and it is a completely different game from vanilla and even tbc.
There is a reason Combat as a spec was removed in Retail. It's a spec that can be drawn up as a "Bandit", "Bruiser", "Hired Thug". They decided they wanted it be "Pirate" later on. Nothing about that screams "Single Target DPS" to me.

I think it is too late to say "No wrath+, no tbc+!" when other classes are already heavily borrowing tools from those expansions.
Neechy wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:14 am The tradeoff is opening pandora's box to wrath, SoD, retail, etc. versions of wow, in which pve was trivialized, class identities obfuscated, and playstyles homogenized. "Everyone gets AoE! Everyone gets self heals! Everyone can solo dungeons! Weeee!"

So once again, if you like that then we just have to agree to disagree on what vanilla+ should entail.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm saying we have no AoE, and the tradeoff for having no AoE is nothing. We aren't good ST DPS, we have no buff for the raid other than IEA, which only 1 rogue in the raid can use. The only thing we do have is the ability to stunlock a single person in PVP (Which is mostly useless in battlegrounds).
Neechy wrote: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:14 am But I still much prefer the approach of enabling situational AoE playstyles for traditionally single target classes via the use of unique weapon procs. That was the whole point of the post that I linked but you either didn't read it or didn't like it.
The issue with relying on items for stuff like this, is that you must gimp yourself to use it. There is nothing stopping me from slapping on Vampirism gear to do lasher farms. But in a raid, if I have to equip some crappy fist weapons instead of my BiS weapon setup to do trash you are going to see a huge dip in damage. Relying on items for solo content is fine, in raids it is meaningless. There's nothing stopping me from slapping a Thunderfury on with Fiery Blaze enchant and going "wow, look at me im cleaving!" but it's simply not worth doing when you could have done 2x overall damage hitting one or two targets in that time. Why do I have to rely on items to do what every other DPS class is doing naturally?
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Nablatidis » Wed Dec 04, 2024 7:30 pm

I'm fully expecting rogues to get buffed or get some utility that no other class has soon. And no, supporting other peoples dps isn't that. The devs has to be monitoring the raiding situation if they have any sort of interest in balance on their server. And if they are monitoring the situation, how do they see the current situation that the rogue population is rapidly dropping. And how do they see the fact that guilds stack warriors - is that good balance? Of course not, you've utterly failed balance if guilds are stacking one class like that. (that goes for cc1 balance too).

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Sat Dec 07, 2024 10:29 pm

Image

We have confirmation that changes are coming. What are these changes? Only they know.

We have not had a single dev ask us what the issues are, every time someone asks a specific member of the team they are told "im not the rogue dev" or "i dont play rogue", with no clue as to who *might* be willing to hear player feedback.

So, I will keep this thread alive until these changes come out, and if they are inadequate you bet I will be staying loud about it. Don't lose hope, fellow rogues!
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:21 am

BUMP!
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Wethand » Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:04 pm

we are now the worst melee according to logs, below enhancement shaman.
im glad for them, but man.... for a purely melee dps feels bad

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Sat Dec 14, 2024 7:24 pm

Wethand wrote: Wed Dec 11, 2024 4:04 pm we are now the worst melee according to logs, below enhancement shaman.
im glad for them, but man.... for a purely melee dps feels bad
It seems that a bug with OH damage is a likely reason for this drop off, where OH weapons are doing half the damage they should be. Should be fixed soon but still won't make up the huge gap we have right now.
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Blindtongue » Mon Dec 16, 2024 7:08 am

Hello people!

I just have to get into the argument and put my 2 cents on the whole state of rogues because its beyond sad at this point.

I like the general idea of class changes but i think they were done in really bad manner and with lackluster experience because who ever made these changes for a rogue - is not a main rogue.

There is no beating around a bush and I say this as a person who runs a ROGUE ONLY GUILD... i have yet to find 1 rogue who likes the state of sub tree.

Everyone else from other classes loves it.. because you basically turned sub rogue into raid support char that gives everyone a dmg boost with marked for death.

It literally feels like devs remade sub tree so some of their rogue playing buddy could go raiding with them and not be useless.

Sub tree

Lets get to the breakdown (starting from the bottom up) - THERE IS LITERALLY 0 INCENTIVE TO SKILL ANY SUB TALENT PAST 25 IF YOU PLAY MAJORLY SOLO. Like 0 incentive.

- Marked for death gives you 2 CP like Permediation did but for 5 wasted points to it its not worth it if you solo sub. If it would increase your dmg as well might make some sense but at state that its in its just meh. I see why everyone else loves it on rogue tho.

Because it makes their dps and class look better lol.

- Tricks of the trade - what the fuck is this shit??? Its like a 5 point Leader of the pack but clunky and uninspiring... literally you couldn't have come up with any other better thing except boosting your party crit???

- Honor among thieves - now this one ain't that bad but only because energy generation is a must on rogue so any source of it is wellcomed but again, 0 incentive or benefits for solo play.

Like except for priest holy tree, i don't think any other tree in the game is so much team party oriented as Sub tree is at the moment. Which makes 0 sense and is not at all in line with the power fantasy of playing a rogue for ANY rogue player out there.

Now for mid part of the tree;

- Hemorrhage - semi decent change with Sinister base going 40 now its an alternative for leveling at 45 but using 1 extra skill point to make the skill usable at 35 energy now takes 1 extra talent point as it takes 22 talents to round off and have a useful Hemo for energy point generation as before.


- Dust of Dissapperance - like... ok... so i'm a support now?? Most rogues i talk to don't even have raid party screens turned on.. like what am i supposed to do now worry about HP of my team as well? Maybe give us improved Smoke bomb talent so it heals party members while inside, lets go all in on support schtick why not. Give us a reason to ninja loot those healing daggers as well... i mean... literally NO ONE I talked to thinks this talent is rogueish AT ALL.

- Blinding Haze - oh thank god for something useful. Not the miss part, no one gives shit about that, just the fact that it unstealths players and mobs makes this talent so good, the hit miss chance is irelevant basically.

- Irritating Agent - this talent has the be the worst case of lack of ideas I ever saw. Its completely unsyngergistic to the skill itself. In pvp - if a target is blinded - IT CANT DEAL DMG... so its completely fucking useless for that part unless somehow it breaks blind off due to dot or something in which case.. is the dmg mitigation really worth it?? I only see this skill useful for PvE boss fights where rogue applies this before boss does some powerful stuff so you save and mitigate dmg for the team.... i mean... whats rogue about that?

Completely unimaginative and counter intuitive talent that makes 0 sense. One of worst talent points I ever seen in any game ever. Literally 0 synergy with the skill itself.

Could had been "target has 5% miss chance for 5 sec after blind wears off or if ressisted" or something to make it useful in solo scenario as well.

- Improved Ghostly Strike - again, cool that you made it a baseline skill but talent gives 0 use for solo play, if it gave like "chance to dodge falls of by 25% for 4 sec at end of duration" "30% of your current chance to dodge value is applied to your chance to avoid spells" so it offers some improvement for yourself as well would be worth it, this is only for hc raid - bg oriented rogues who wont ever leave their team.

Top part of tree was actually organized really nicely tho I dislike the removal of Setup into combat as Sub always struggled with point generation and setup was there to help and now it forces you to go half combat if you want those same benefits.

But overall there is no sugar coating it - no one except NON ROGUES ARE PLEASED WITH THIS TREE REMAKE - because you literally made us errand boys for dps of others and done us dirty.

Instead of putting interesting stuff like maybe % chance to not have your stealth be broken on hit so you can approach and open even if hit with some aoe spell by mob pack or something and be useful in your own role - and get a talent thats useful when you are on your own... nah. Find a party lol.


Combat tree

Combat tree was always in semi good state and i understand why you didnt change it much but tried to optimize but again I think a far better job could had been made at it.

Baselining Sinister to 40 energy and removing improved Sinister is actually a godsend for early leveling, especially considering 20 years later we are still struggling with that energy server roundown tick that leaves us -1 energy short and unable to complete our skills until next energy tick so it basically locks you out for 2-4 secs so this is a pretty nice change overall.

- Blade flurry got gutted and there is no nice way to go about it, same treatment as hemo, you split up a functioning 1 pointer skill into 2 parts so now we gotta waste 2 extra points to make them useful, except in Bladeflurry's case its HALF as useful as it only gives half attack speed.

If this was your intention you could had at least lowered its base energy cost to 15 or even 10 because without improved it feels meh and with improved you just feel scammed out of talent points.

- Surprise attack oh man... is this skill.. a surprise. When i saw it i was super excited but after trying it out its not worth jack shit. It just feels buggy and clunky, my excitement got the better of me and i imagined it will be like riposte but the queeing part sucks or I don't know but the skill doesn't even seem to activate half the time and the icon just bugs out and goes black from time to time also. Make it 20 energy but make it an instant attack, this just feels bad and worst part is it blocks out the weapon expertise talent so just forces you to take this and waste 1 to get to it if you don't like this skill. Which i wouldn't hold against you - as all rogues i talked to find it clunky. No feedback on use so it just feels bad, half the time without combat log i wouldn't even know if i did it or not. Give it some visual effect at least.

- Weapon masteries talent ... seriously.. after seeing the treatment warrior weapon talents got... why the fuck do we still half a tree cluttered up by scattered weapon masteries??

So a warrior can pick 1 talent, skill 5 points into it and swap weapons on spot and get the benefit. But if you are a combat rogue and better shit drops while you playing?? Oh guess what, you gonna have to respec if you wanna use that if you been using other type of weapon. It just doesn't seem fair at all to be honest, this versility on points alone makes Warriors masterie talent seem sooooo better compared to our combat tree, not to mention that doing that would actually allow for some new and interesting talents to be implemented (but please don't let the changes be done by same person who thought of new sub talents).

Put axe/sword/mace/fist mastery in combat under single talent point 5/5, give axes chance to bleed on swings so you could go for dot poison / garrote / rupture build with them, leave swords multiattack, mace stun and give fist something original like 5% chance to generate combo point on attack. Leave daggers inside this talent with crit if needed or maybe even put dagger weapon mastery separately in assasination as it lacks 4th collumn of skills under Improved S&D. I think this would give class a lot more flavor if it was done this way and would certainly feel much fairer treatment compared to what warriors got as it wouldn't force us to change our whole trees based on single weapon swap if something better drops (and you know it will).

Also in my opinion that weapon expertise talent for +5 should be lowered into 20 row so other trees could multi combat as for 20 years you have been forced to go combat if you wanna go raiding since weapon skill is so hard to obtain on items and no enchants for it it bacially shoehorned a whole playstyle around this fucking talent which is stupid as fuck as I see no reason why hybrid rogue builds wouldn't be allowed to raid as well?? Or you really want us to be only combat or total sub support while in groups?

- Setup - Combat tree already had adrenalin rush for point generation as it makes you god for 15 sec and doubles your CP output basically, Assasination has relentless strikes for cp after finishers and sub got shit because you took it and put it here. Yea i get its more thematical a bit i can agree on that but its lackluster and still a shitty talent that sometimes seems to fill 3 cp's on single dodge and sometimes doesn't proc for 20 dodges in a row it seems. Imo would be better if you put hightened senses into Combat and left Setup instead of irritating agent in sub but thats just me i suppose. Just would make more sense. But this talent needs an overhaul in itself anyway. Should be put more higher up and made 100% chance in Sub tree imo instead.

Assasination tree

Since top is the same gonna just review the bottom

- Envenom - Decent finisher but nowhere near a 31 pointer. Its duration should also be affected by Improved Slice and Dice same as Flourishes is.

- Seal fate - Should be made a 3/3 - 5/5 is really a fucking stretch with it and just feels like overcommitment. And since you fucked up Hemo so it requires 22 points to be useful as it was now you force us to either go halfway on either one or just use this for shitty backstab builds since its the only one that can afford it. Can go full hemo but then don't get prep and only semi partial extra combos so again... make it 3/3 so we can mix it with some other stuff except backstab, would be pretty cool after 20 years.

- Vigor - new Vigor is actually pretty good, finally a decent improvement, back then +10 solo from vanilla felt like waste and not nearly worth it or impactufl but this is a good change. Still think it should be every 6 sec as 8 is really a stretch also.. or be made 10/20 energy per 8 sec. Would compensate for that energy tick miss a bit more as well as 5 bearly cuts it if you get few bad ticks in a row.

- Taste for blood - 0 complaints, love it.

- Poison talents - not great not terrible, pretty decent. Improved Poisons should also increase the time your poisons stay applied to your weapons by 30 min or 1 hour, 30 min is really too little sometimes you waste a lot of poisons just on bad timing in game that you cant control.

- Deadly throw this talent... looks good on paper but that Deadly throw skill is utter shit. Its not even castable half the time it keeps saying "interrupted" and my character is standing still not moving literally only press the key once and no matter how i press it keeps saying "interrupted".

When it works... it doesn't generate Ruthlesness or Reckless strikes... which i reported as a bug and your mod said thats intended behavior??? This ability is a finisher.. it can only be activated IF i have COMBO POINTS ON TARGET - so how the hell do talents that modify finishers not work on this skill??

Thats for the mechanical part of the skill... now applicational part... who would use this skill at all??

THROWING WEAPONS ARE FUCKING DOG SHIT. Best ones are blue ones from LBRS still if i am not mistaken?? lol. There is 0 incentive to use throwing weapons on a rogue - so everyone uses bow / gun for equip / stat stick.

And now i cant use my cool skill (if it was even usable in first place) because the game simply offers no decent items to keep on that slot as keeping throwing weapons on myself to use this shit once a week means i gimp my melee dmg because i lose hit / attack power / crtic chance i get from equipipng guns / bows.

This is terrible game design, you give us skill but then 0 incentive to use it or items to use it with. You can easily make couple epic throwing knives and include them in the loot table but no one gives a shit about them.

Also would be really cool if we could get a standalone "Poison master" talent that branches from "Improved poisons" to the right and for 1 points gives "you can now apply poisons to your throwing weapon". It would give us an 3rd possible source of poison application and we could keep a backup poison on it for possible applications in some situations.

For example keep mind numbing poison on throwing blades for casters and keep your regular poisons on melee weapons so you don't have to switch poison just cuz you saw another enemy but have another source of application for it - ofc it wont apply always and its not 100% it will apply but it gives you another source and variable to play with and opens up new possibilites where now we got jack shit and its better to not even look at throwing weapons as you will just get depressed and sad because it feels like no one even thought about those after first dungeons which is a shame.


Or give us "deadly shoot" ability that gives same shit as deadly throw but allows to be used with ranged weapons as this whole situation is anti itself because you tried to give us option with skills like Deadly throw but the ingame items are not even made for it.

Like would a throwing knives with +1 hit really break the game? or +1 crit%??? Seriously?? Can they get some love i mean how hard can it be to come up with 5 throwing weapons and put them into endgame instances is beyond me...


Anyway is not a rant but a general overview of the situation as I only play rogues and really can feel playwise whats lacking to feel the general experience of the class more cohesive and enjoyable.

I don't think any of my suggestions need to be implemented, i'm just brainstorming ideas as thats the general concensus that the current changes in sub have 0 rogue theme behind it.

Also... is any dev playing Rogue in Pvp???

You are basically dead meat against dot's, unless you expect me to pop 3g restorative potion every battle engagement with a warlock / hunter / druid. I am not saying "I NEED TO BEAT THOSE CLASSES ALL THE TIME" - no - but seriously you guys need to go play a rogue in pvp bg's and see what sad state it is without Cloak of Shadows. You literally got no answeres a lock dots me from half a map away and i can just lay and die since their dots last 20 secs.

Put some talent in subtelty tree "all debuffs on you last 30% less time" or renormalize duration of shit like Fairy fire in Pvp because 45 fucking seconds IS FUCKING INSANITY.

"get a dispel" yea bro every fight i'll be begging for a dispell typing to people if they are even aware of chat at that moment. Even besides that it just locks you out and makes half your skills or gameplay unusable its like forbidding hunters to shoot bow for 45 seconds basically or silencing a mage.

Imagine kick silenced mages for 10 seconds? Everyone would lose their shit.. now imagine it lasted 45 seconds... if they can be feral form and its instant spell that can be spammed it feels bad that i have to waste 3g and potion cd just to get it off and he can re-apply again when my pots end... can it at least get Dimininishing returns if recast on same player over and over? like at least something or make druid not be able to cast it from ferla form or something because Mark of hunter you can vanish off but this shit just ruins your whole day. And no, this doesn't mean i cant beat druids in fight or that i complain about imbalance its just pointless to have a 45 second debuff in pvp that literally blocks out half your class unless you pop a fucking 3g resto pot.

Something has to be done about dots and fairy fire as this shit is completely out of line. Blind breaks if i look at my target wrong way but i can have 7 dots on me and still run around feared for 7 seconds x2 times without it breaking on dot ticks lol. Imagine blind did that... it would be fixed tomorrow.

Also besides sprint there is 0 abilities to close distance so those dots seem even worse when paired with movement impairing effects and you have 0 answeres to any of that as class except - get an upper hand and kill them first.

I feel like deep sub should offer at least something like that if you guys can't give us cloak of shadows then give us something like "20% per 1 talent point chance every 5 sec removes 1 debuff from you" deep down 25-30 sub it would
far more useful then this leader of the pack wanna be party bullshit.

Just give us something that gives us at least partial timed answer to this shit as i forgot how bad vanilla rogue felt in this regard. Or normalize the skill duration on other classes so it takes in consideration pve and pvp duration because 45 second fairy fire is just fucking mental.

Hopefully some dev reads this but doubt it, just glad to get this shit off my mind finally as I find very sad the state of my favorite and only class i play. None other class is fun to play as rogue but goddamn did you make it even more hard to have fun in some regards... please think about optimizing the class so new playstyles and builds can be made so we are not forced to take same shit we been taking for past 20 years or forced new talents just so we can go raid??

Seriously.. every fucking rogue on the server would appreciate that.. except Fatduck probably :)
Last edited by Blindtongue on Mon Dec 16, 2024 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Akos1896
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Akos1896 » Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:25 am

There's something I wanna ask from rogue mains.
Does assassination tree have any PVE or PVP build associated to it?
I've only seen (both) combat and sub for now. Sure, combat goes a bit into assassination but it's defined by the combat tree and just takes some assassination talents here and there.

If there's no real assa. build at this moment, how would you change it? Keeping the poison capstone? What would be the gameplay flavor of the tree besides the crit+poison gimmicks?

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Blindtongue » Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:25 pm

There's something I wanna ask from rogue mains.
Does assassination tree have any PVE or PVP build associated to it?
I've only seen (both) combat and sub for now. Sure, combat goes a bit into assassination but it's defined by the combat tree and just takes some assassination talents here and there.

If there's no real assa. build at this moment, how would you change it? Keeping the poison capstone? What would be the gameplay flavor of the tree besides the crit+poison gimmicks?
I run a 27/0/24 build with 2x stormfist fist weapons and its pretty fucking good. In all blues and with x2 Stormfists i took down many 6k hp warriors, also managed to get naxx geared druid with 9.6k hp to 2k hp. Would kill him if i had a pot.

Its pretty fucking good and poisons can deal shitton of dmg - if you go fast attack speed route so you get shitton of hits in small amount of time.

I didn't go for envenom as its not worth the commitment tbh. Experimented with it but I prefer having Preparation and improved Hemo just for energy efficiency which pairs up nicely with new Vigor.

I also have pretty good sustain with about 8% vamp and 2x crusaders plus ace of warlords trinket. My attack speed with S&D is currently at 0.93 so i can get 5/5 stacks of deadly plus corrosive on pretty quickly, with rupture and taste for blood in the mix it pairs up for some insane pvp dps but your poison bill will be 5-10g each day or two lol.

As for flavor not really much to it, its somewhat different but running into poison immune mob severley halves your dps, think maybe even 2/3rds it based on "approximation" since those 50% poison chance hits really stack up with fast attack speed.

My plan is to upgrade to that 30% attack speed buff MC claw and tempest rage sword for offhand in future, go 0.5 4 piece for 35 energy on hit and 2/4 piece naxx for heal on hit and energy on crit.

Should make a pretty sick all arounder build tbh as in duels 1v1 rarely any class gives me trouble even tho i am severley undergeared compared to everyone i fight mostly lol.

I'm in all blues except 2 epic trinkets so yea, i think its pretty good but you gotta build around that tree and you cant just apply meta to it since when I used it with 1.8 daggers the whole tree felt like shit.

I feel like fast attack speed weapons need some love, 2.9 attack speed fist weapons make 0 sense and just sucks to have all weapons shoehorned into same playstyle based on crit insta hit meta.


As for PvE i wouldn't recommend for raiding even tho glancing doesn't affect your dmg output that much but for solo play i regularly kill Stormwind fly master with this build and manage to solo couple instance bosses, pretty good for some soloing as I do many of my group quests alone xd definitely doing a lot of content solo no dagger rogue could ever do and I think even some combat rogues would struggle in my level of gear. But don't have decent pair of swords to test out so cant say for sure xd hahaha
Last edited by Blindtongue on Mon Dec 16, 2024 12:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Wethand » Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:38 pm

maybe they could incorporate envenom into slice and dice(i,e hit slice and dice and get both effects) it would remove the issues with trying to maintain 3 buffs at once.

hell make it passive even

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Isvya » Mon Dec 16, 2024 1:59 pm

Maybe theyll rework assa into a healer spec... Honestly would not be surprised after seeing so many nonsense changes

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Sat Dec 21, 2024 9:34 pm

Thread updated as some of the suggestions have been addressed and fixes are being implemented. As I previously stated I will likely still continue advocating for changes, but I will reserve most of my judgement for when the fixes are out and people can test builds out.
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Wed Jan 29, 2025 1:31 am

Alright. We've had a month or so to let the changes simmer. Here's what I've noticed:

While we can now parse on bosses once more, our overall dps is the worst of any dps class by far. Our single target dps does not justify such a discrepancy.

This is due to 2 reasons:
1. Trash dies far too quickly.
I can barely even get out a 2 point slice and dice before the trash is all dead. How am I expected to keep up as a single target dps against all these mages and warriors AOEing everything to bits?
2. We have no AOE
As a single target dps, our only form of "AOE/Cleave" is our Blade Flurry, currently tied to a 90 second cooldown and it only works on one additional target. The devs seem to be against adding Fan of Knives specifically, but we are in desperate need of some way to deal with large packs of mobs!

Our tier 3 set is in dire need of a rework. Our 6 piece and 8 piece set bonus are utterly pointless.
We are a class with a completely unused threat reduction ability (Feint), and the 8 piece set barely makes an impact, even as a Sword rogue.

Raw AP has no scaling, it would be much better if some of this AP was converted into Agility instead.

Subtlety is a disaster, and even the devs seem to have given up on it for the time being. Please revert the hemo nerf and remove Bloody Mess, making Hemorrhage cost 35 energy as a baseline.

A lot of stealth nerfs to Rogue Tanking were made with these changes as well, such as Heightened Senses being made baseline at the cost of some of its tanking prowess. Rogue Tanks could use a taunt, even shaman tanks were given a taunt, please give Rogues "Tease" from SoD or something similar.

T2 was changed to remove dodge from the shoulders and boots. Bloodfang is still severely underused due to the difficulty of obtaining the full set and the fact Darkmantle still remains supreme over the first 3 sets of rogue tier.

My suggestions for the rogue class:
-Some AOE energy dump for trash packs
-Tease taunt from SoD
-Alternate T2 set that is focused on tanking, replacing crit with dodge and parry
-Revert hemo and make it 35 energy.
-Rework t3 set bonuses and stats
-Remove the 4 pc set bonus of Darkmantle and offer it as a helm enchant instead
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Lkenzox » Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:00 am

t3 should get a rework, especially for 6 and 8pc, those are basically useless
some love for pvpers after the CC2 butchering of sub
our single target damage is still not on par with classes that either have tremendous AoE potential, or just bring way more utility to groups/raids overall
these are my honest thoughts so far, love y'all, great server turtle_tongue_head

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Wethand » Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:26 am

Piacrt wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 1:31 am
T2 was changed to remove dodge from the shoulders and boots. Bloodfang is still severely underused due to the difficulty of obtaining the full set and the fact Darkmantle still remains supreme over the first 3 sets of rogue tier.
i can 100% see them removing the Darkmantle energy gain from the set and leaving Bloodfang as it is right now. :(

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Wethand » Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:47 am

I wanna know why they're so dead set against giving us an AoE ability, as if that would make us so brokenly overpowered or something, we aren't even close to being in the top spot for dps.

That said Id rather they give us proper scaling on all our abilities over AoE(id like both but if I had to pick)

I agree our 6 and 8 piece bonus for t3 is pretty worthless.
Feint is also worthless, make it reduce AoE damage taken by 50% for like 5 seconds or something, as it is now I've never used it, if I need to reduce threat I vanish.

The devs have been against rogue tanking from the start and the changes to the spec and gear reflect that, I don't expect any changes on that front, which is weird since they gave us a parry finisher and threat generating poison.

Subtlety was controversial to say the least, it now does what the devs want it to do which it to be a fluffer for other dps(see warrior), its unlikely we will see a reversion.

In regards to changing all the T3 AP into agility, while id like it, I don't think they'd go for it as it would increase our dodge chance and they don't want us tanking at least that's my head cannon conspiracy theory.

As for making the Darkmantle 4 set bonus a head enchant, I would say make it the T3 4 set bonus instead, that way we can have it when we move into upper kara, since its so powerful I don't think they'd ever entertain the idea of being able to have both t3 4set and Darkmantle 4set as an enchant

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Wed Jan 29, 2025 3:25 am

Wethand wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:47 am I wanna know why they're so dead set against giving us an AoE ability, as if that would make us so brokenly overpowered or something, we aren't even close to being in the top spot for dps.

That said Id rather they give us proper scaling on all our abilities over AoE(id like both but if I had to pick)
Unfortunately, with where we are at on single target dps, it is entirely possible to beat out warriors on specific fights like Razuvious, Maexxna and so on. Still fights we lose hard on, Patchwerk being such a long fight we spend half of it auto attacking and Loatheb, the crit buff does nothing for a geared rogue. I don't think we will be seeing any further buffs to our single target dps.
Wethand wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:47 am I agree our 6 and 8 piece bonus for t3 is pretty worthless.
Feint is also worthless, make it reduce AoE damage taken by 50% for like 5 seconds or something, as it is now I've never used it, if I need to reduce threat I vanish.

The devs have been against rogue tanking from the start and the changes to the spec and gear reflect that, I don't expect any changes on that front, which is weird since they gave us a parry finisher and threat generating poison.
Yeah this is weird. They already addressed the fact that someone was abusing avoidance to solo stuff they shouldn't be. They even gave shamans a taunt, please just let us have fun.
Wethand wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:47 am Subtlety was controversial to say the least, it now does what the devs want it to do which it to be a fluffer for other dps(see warrior), its unlikely we will see a reversion.
Completely ruined rogue pvp imho, for a spec that offers some terrible buffs and debuffs quite honestly.
Wethand wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 2:47 am As for making the Darkmantle 4 set bonus a head enchant, I would say make it the T3 4 set bonus instead, that way we can have it when we move into upper kara, since its so powerful I don't think they'd ever entertain the idea of being able to have both t3 4set and Darkmantle 4set as an enchant
The inherent issue with this set bonus is that it is so powerful that tying it to a set is problematic, to the point ppl are debating 4pc darkmantle vs 8 pc t3. Moving it to a helm enchant fixes this issue.
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Piacrt » Wed Jan 29, 2025 4:00 am

Image

Here's a proposal for an alternative t2 tanking set. Numbers could be tweaked if they seem unbalanced, however I have taken current avoidance gear in the game as a reference for the power of this gear. The set bonuses would also lock you into using it so upgrades would be limited.
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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Wethand » Wed Jan 29, 2025 6:05 am

The changes Id like to see.

Make rogue skills scale with AP, I personally don't care about any other changes as much as this one.

Skill changes:

Baseline:
Imp sap
Blade Flurry

CD reduction of evasion, sprint, blind and vanish to 2 or 3 mins

AoE:
A 60 energy Fan of Knives 100% weapon damage to all enemies within 6 yards (or something)
not sure how they think this could be overpowered, you'd cast it twice then then tab out and watch youtube until you have the energy to use it again, meanwhile ever other class is AoEing their little hearts out.

On the discord we were told it was an absolute line in the sand "NO FAN OF KNIVES" but we are never told why then Dragunovi vanished out of the rogue channel faster than M&Ms vanish into my mouth. It wouldnt be OP give FoK

Changes to rogue T3:

Change all AP pieces to agi/str, if you don't want to change this is due to increased dodge and would encourage rogue tanking, lets be honest who gives a shit? Let em tank if they can figure something out or can be arsed to get all the additional gear and consumes, it negatively effects no one.

Change the set bonuses
4 set: Sinister Strike, Backstab and Hemorrhage critical hits cause you to regain 20 energy up from 5.

The reason I didn't lift 35 energy straight from Darkmantle is because energy return from critical hit is a bit more consistent than a chance on any melee to restore 35 energy and I think it would be way to powerful with the amount of crit we have.

6 set: Your melee strikes have a chance cause "infected wounds" increasing poison damage and effects from all sources by 50% for 10 seconds.

We can work shop the name, but 6 set in its current form may as well be blank since as rogues we can just use our "threat be gone" skill vanish, the idea behind this change is that the proc can help all classes with a poison or poison like skills mostly yourself and your other rogue brothers... and hunters I guess not sure if stings count as poison.

8 set: Finishing moves has a 20% chance per CP to apply Rupture(rank 6) of equal CP value to your target.

The current 8 set looks good however in reality its only a 5% chance per CP, even if it were 20% per CP it would be mediocre at best since if youre at the point where you have enough t3 piece to achieve 8 set you'd already have a shit load of crit. A rank 6 rupture at 5 CP isn't unreasonable imo, unspecced it only does 800 damage over 16 seconds, 50 damage a second truly terrifying.

T3.5
Make rogue 3 piece T3.5 Increase attack speed from Slice and Dice by an additional 10% instead of the current "stealth openers increase you attack speed by 15% for 6 seconds"

I dont know enought about sub to make any suggestions.
anyway thats all that comes to mind amt ill edit more in later if i remember anything or can be bothered.

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by Tenbo » Wed Jan 29, 2025 10:31 am

I've been playing Rogue since the open beta. Over 20 years in all expansions I have gone through all skill trees. Vanilla was very combat oriented but the other trees were also interesting and useful. It was refreshing from TBC, WotL, Cata onwards when all trees had their advantages and everyone could reach the top DMG. TWoW made the Rogue the worst class ever. I've never been so desperate for a skill tree. You are literally forced to go into the Combat tree. The other skill trees have no significant advantages and are completely useless in the endgame (in my opinion). I also play other classes but Rogue has always been my main and I couldn't stand being forced into a skill tree. It's actually a big reason for me to quit TWoW or at least take a break and hope for an improvement.
Assassination has bleeding as well as poisons. The last skill is useless because you need way too much energy and time for it and in pvp CC loses its effect, no gouge, no blind because the opponent is bleeding and poisoned.
Subtlety looks like a supporter. A selfish class like Rogue should waste all its energy to make others look better. Completely useless for soloing.
If you can't improve the Rogue, at least give us back the vanilla Rogue. There was more variety with it than with the Rogue+

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Re: Rogues are weak!

Post by killend » Sat Feb 01, 2025 5:59 pm

After two updates, the assassination talent tree has become even more useless. We hope the design team can consider the positioning of rogues and assassins and seriously think about the relationship between daggers and rogues. Rogues can now use axes to attack, which is cool, but this should be the forte of warriors. What assassins are prouder of is using daggers to find weaknesses and deal fatal blows. However, the new changes are making dagger weapons completely useless in the game. Therefore, we hope that improvements can be made:
1. Envenom, as the ultimate 31-point talent in the assassination tree, currently does not match its status as an ultimate talent. Judging from the actual performance of Poisoned Strike, even with a 25% poisoning effect, the two-handed fast-acting poison is still less effective than using the combination of Deadly Poison and Corruption Poison. Moreover, the continuous high-efficiency triggering of the double DOT poison only resets the poison debuff duration without causing additional damage, resulting in a very low damage ceiling for Poisoned Strike. Currently, it is almost never seen in 60-level team battles. The damage output of Poisoned Strike as a 31-point talent in the assassination tree is even lower than that of the 3rd and 4th layer talents in the combat tree. Could you consider adding a direct damage or refreshing the duration of the Eviscerate skill to Poisoned Strike, and increasing the trigger effect of the fast-acting poison to 50%-70% (refer to Blizzard's setting)? Merge this skill with the efficient poison.
2. Vigor, as the 31-point talent in the assassination tree before, it only required 1 point to increase the energy cap. Now, it requires 2 points to gain a 5-point energy recovery every 8 seconds. This is completely insufficient. In a boss battle, it can only result in 2 more Sinister Strikes or 1 more Backstab. If it could be changed to 1 point for a 10-point energy recovery, it would offer more diverse talent allocation options and make the use of rogue talents more interesting, rather than the current situation where more talents in the combat tree lead to better performance.
3. Throwing Weapon Specialization, the Deadly Throw skill is not used by anyone in either PVE or PVP. Firstly, it requires a throwing weapon, and secondly, the damage it causes is meaningless in both PVE and PVP. As a result, no one considers the Throwing Weapon Specialization talent in the fourth layer of the assassination tree. Although it looks good from a PVP perspective, there is no feasible talent allocation scheme that would make players want to try it.
Thank you again to the Turtle development team for bringing new talents and game experiences to players. For players who are passionate about the Turtle setting, any changes or innovations are supported. We wish Turtle the best.

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