Rogues are weak!

[Piacrt]

EDIT Dec 21, 2024: Some of these suggestions are getting implemented, expect an overhaul of this thread when changes are out and can be tested.

For starters, I am a high performing Rogue with bis gear! I am very competitive in raids, and I am sorely disappointed with where Rogues are at right now when it comes to the role of DPS!

Rogues are under-performing on almost every level of content when compared to other DPS classes like Fury Warrior, Hunters, Retribution Paladins and Mages.

Mages and Warlocks can be attributed to Ignite, but there is no reason we should be lagging behind Warriors by 300 DPS or Paladins and Hunters by 200! As a pure DPS class, we have no recourse. Before you say "But support rogue!" Subtlety's buffs are far too weak, and are far outweighed by just having another Warrior in the raid. That should not be the default spec for the average Rogue player.

================================

Issue 1: Surprise Attack
Being made into an instant attack at the cost of some of its damage.

Issue 2: High Elf Racial
Rogues do not have any abilities with cast time. Why is this one a cast time? Quel'dorei Meditation was broken up into different spells based on class, so there is nothing stopping Turtle from removing the 1.5 sec cast time on this. 50 energy over 5 seconds is not going to break the game as an instant cast.

Issue 3: Thistle Tea
Why is our main consume on a 5 min cooldown? Please normalize this cooldown to 2 minutes to match herbal tea and standard potion cooldowns.

Issue 4: Execute Phase
This has always been where we struggle where Warriors don't. When the boss hits 20% health, it doesn't matter if you've played perfectly or had absolutely perfect RNG, Warriors just instantly take over because of their execute ability. It seems pretty strange that the class with the fantasy of a ninja, assassin, jester or bandit has no similar way to dispatch their foes. It is high time rogues get their own version of execute.

Suggestion:

Assassinate
Attempt to finish off a wounded foe, causing x damage and converting each extra point of energy into x additional damage. Uses all available Combo Points. For each Combo Point used the critical strike chance of Assassinate is increased by 20%. Only usable on enemies that have 20% or less health.

Issue 5: Alternative Sets
Rogues were not given alternative sets. There was plenty of opportunity to do so. Why not add a set that buffs poisons for the Assassin tree? Or one that improves cooldowns for your support rogue spec? Huge wasted opportunity. Please reconsider how you approach rogue in this regard.

Example:

Assassination set:
-Increase stack limit of poisons
-Increase proc chance of poisons
-Increase poison damage by x%

Subtlety:
-Decrease cooldown of Marked for Death by x minutes
-Increase Marked for Death duration by x seconds
-Increase Hemo stacks by x and its bonus damage by X damage.
-Decrease Preparation CD by x Minutes

Issue 6: Blade Flurry
BF AS is being reverted at the cost of some of the cooldown reduction they gave it.

Issue 7: AOE
Not talking about 1 extra target for 15 seconds every minute. Fan of Knives. You give Hunters a 5-target cleave on a 6 second cooldown and a mini sapper every 15 seconds but we are stuck with Blade Flurry. Rogue is one of the few classes that cannot AOE properly in any spec.

Issue 8: Assassination
Poisons are now being given scaling, at a very nice AP ratio.

Later expansions added Mutilate, a great 60 energy cost ability that deals bonus damage if the target is poisoned. Just this alone would help Assassination by miles.

Issue 9: Subtlety
The post in this thread as follows sums it up better than I could: viewtopic.php?p=108562#p108562

Issue 10: Energy
Energy is a very set resource. Very few ways to restore it. Right now Darkmantle, the T0.5 dungeon set, is incredibly powerful thanks to its 4 set bonus. It actually outclasses almost all rogue gear until T3. Why not offer the 4 piece bonus as a head enchant like Druids got with Wolfshead? In exchange Darkmantle could be nerfed or changed and the effect could be toned down in return for less RNG.

Relentless Strikes energy regen proc is being reduced by 5, but all finishers are also being reduced by 5 energy.

TO BE EDITED

[Xudo]

Those lists of changes from players will never be implemented as they ask.

[amanagor]

bro if you think rogues are weak, try playing ele shaman in raids hahahahahahaha

[Gantulga]

You know it's ridiculous when the class is in an even worse situation than it was before the changes, and it was already in a bad spot back then.
As it stands there's no reason to play rogue as they're either mediocre or downright bad in every single aspect of the game.

[Piacrt]

Those lists of changes from players will never be implemented as they ask.

We have no other way to plead our case. As far as I know the Class Council doesn't really exist anymore.

bro if you think rogues are weak, try playing ele shaman in raids hahahahahahaha

Hybrid class, at least you have other options. Pure DPS class can't do its only job well is an issue. Shamans will never have a problem getting a raid spot thanks to Windfury and Flametongue.

[Nablatidis]

Exactly this. The first Rogue to appear on logs ranking for Patchwerk (turtlogs) was on 86th spot.
This is a class that has no utility and we dont bring buffs. Our one thing we do bring is our dps.
And not even going to acknowledge sub as a support spec.

[amanagor]

Those lists of changes from players will never be implemented as they ask.

We have no other way to plead our case. As far as I know the Class Council doesn't really exist anymore.

bro if you think rogues are weak, try playing ele shaman in raids hahahahahahaha

Hybrid class, at least you have other options. Pure DPS class can't do its only job well is an issue. Shamans will never have a problem getting a raid spot thanks to Windfury and Flametongue.

good luck getting caster gear if you join raid as resto.

[Calli]

Poor rogues, melee hunters fullfill your role. Rip

[Bayanni]

OP is pretty much right on every front. Below would be my addendums for Subtlety:

Sub tree is, sadly, a joke.
- Mark for Death is an insanely short buff to dps for the party with a 3m cd. As a capstone, it's lackluster and not worth the talents. If you have it, it is worth the energy over a single SS, but 6s every 3m is a horrible return on a capstone talent investment. Increase duration or decrease cd.
- Tricks of the Trade mostly stays up but at best you're just doing what a feral druid would do passively but for 5 talent points instead of 1. It needs to be pushed to make it more fun. Drop the rng chance lower and increase the crit rate, or something similar so it at least feels impactful.
- Honor Among Thieves is great. No notes.
- Dust of Disappearance is weird. It's best synergies are with stealth classes and big 2h hitters. 2m cd and a reagent for a one-hit 15% damage boost and a small threat drop. It's, again, low impact and feels lackluster. If it was intended for rogue tanks to compensate for a teammate going ape, then why a 2m cd so it can't be used every pull? If it was intended as a dps increase, a talent for 15% on a single hit is horrible return. To top it off, although Flash Powder is cheap, it takes up bag space and rogues are going to be using that reagent often. At least increase its stack size so rogues aren't gimped on bag space if they actually want to use this thing.
- Hemorrhage and Bloody Mess are essentially pulling power out of a base ability and adding it back in later. I get the idea but the hit to hemo energy cost just feels bad all over. Dunno, can't say much more.
- Blinding Haze is great for adding just that little bit of extra value to a spell that sees little use otherwise. Love to see it. It's 3 talents though which is steep, but AoE hit reduction isn't nothing and I get why it can't be a long debuff or a large one. That said, I'd much prefer if it lasted as long as distract does normally at 10s with the current 30s cd rather than a 5s debuff.
- Irritating Agent would be good if it added onto other spells than blind. Multiple talent points to very slightly reduce damage from targets for 8s on a 5m cd with, again, a reagent cost is not good.
- Smoke Bomb is interesting in concept but in execution it's a troll tool. I have never, not once, seen it used for anything other than to mess with the raid/party. The saving grace is the rogue can only troll once every 5m for 8s. It's almost better than predicted since people thought there would be groups of rogues just trolling world bosses and levelers, but I haven't seen that yet.


TL;DR almost every new talent in sub adds near nothing to the rogue, the party they're in, or their raid. Their combat damage is lower post-patch, their pvp viability is lower, and their reagent costs have increased slightly. I was excited for them, tried them, and was horribly disappointed. Just don't.

[Piacrt]

OP is pretty much right on every front. Below would be my addendums for Subtlety:

Sub tree is, sadly, a joke.
- Mark for Death is an insanely short buff to dps for the party with a 3m cd. As a capstone, it's lackluster and not worth the talents. If you have it, it is worth the energy over a single SS, but 6s every 3m is a horrible return on a capstone ...

Thanks for pointing out flaws with Sub, I didn't want to comment on it because of the state it is currently in could have been just me being bad at playing the spec. I understand some of the abilities are currently bugged but this hits the nail on the head with all of its issues.

I have added another issue to the OP linking your post for Subtlety.

[Epickalen]

Surprise attack works just fine for it's intended purpose **generating a really cheap combo point on your next swing**. Cheapest combo point to energy ratio, for an ability that isn't subject to glancing blows. This works perfectly in line with dagger rogues being combo point starved prepatch, and now with imp backstab, surprise attack being an unmissable, unblockable, bonus damage cheap combo point, makes for getting 5 combo points or not having wasted potential points, much easier.

Helf racial being a short cast is being blind to its use case for rogues specifically, but a renatakis trinket as an instant racial is as broken as it seems, the short cast is fine.

Thistle tea shares a cooldown of everyone else's teas, and hearthstone, and similar things. It's just our version of it. I have a feeling if ours was reduced, the others would ask to be reduced, which will fuck over balance surrounding things like, mana economy. But if they made a special exception to make it 2min like most other common use CDs, fully agreed that it wouldn't fuck over rogue balance and just make it more easy to integrate into a rotation

Execute phase, every rogue here is aware of the huge damage that warriors get to do just by getting to 20% that the other classes did the work to get there.

Alt sets, yeah would love to see some actual creativity but the real issue is that everyone doesn't use the current tier progression already. Why give alt sets that are just going to fall short of darkmantle 4set.
Move energy Regen to 6set and people will actually use the tier sets that need alternative bonuses. Because as is, you just use half darkmantle and fuck the rest so why would they give us new shit you all wouldn't use anyways.

Bladeflurry should have been a toggle option. Put points into it to swap it from haste and into a cleave (baseline ability, cleaves additional two targets, 1 point cleaves additinal 1 target, 10% haste, 2 points, 20% haste no more additional targets. Or you can do it in reverse order) as yeah making it baseline made sense AS IT WAS.

Rogue wasn't ever supposed to properly aoe. However this means we are supposed to outdo in single target DPS to warriors. Fan of knives would be nice addition however I'd rather they work on fixing the class identity structure, than homogenized classes.

Assassination is just the melee hunter of rogue, except it actually looks fun and is just currently not working for shit due to poisons being the way they are and no real future for scaling (however I think the poison itself doesn't need to scale really, as the damage is still mainly classics like backstab and auto attacks which is just based off your weapon and boosted by talents. The spec scales just as much from a better weapon as the next)


Just because one person's playstyle got nerfed or not even buffed, doesn't mean the class is bad. Adapt or die, but we are eating good generally.

[Piacrt]

Just because one person's playstyle got nerfed or not even buffed, doesn't mean the class is bad. Adapt or die, but we are eating good generally.

By the way, mind posting your dps logs for a recent naxx on here? Since you seem to have all the answers.

turtlogs -> PvE -> Rankings -> Toggle any boss in naxx -> All classes
Rogues are severely behind. The whole argument I am making is that as a pure dps class if we are doing even 200-300 dps less than several classes, then the need for a Rogue in a raid is diminished (aside from IEA).

The reality is Subtlety is in a horrible spot with bad uptime on its buffs and has bugs, and serves zero purpose in a raid environment, it should not be considered utility at this point, nor should it be forced on all Rogue players.

Combat is still the highest performing spec, so it is not a matter of playstyle.

[Nablatidis]

Surprise attack works just fine for it's intended purpose **generating a really cheap combo point on your next swing**. Cheapest combo point to energy ratio, for an ability that isn't subject to glancing blows. This works perfectly in line with dagger rogues being combo point starved prepatch, and now with imp backstab, surprise attack being an unmissable, unblockable, bonus damage cheap combo point, makes for getting 5 combo points or not having wasted potential points, much easier.

Overall ranking in Naxx has the first Rogue on 111th place.
On Patchwerk the first rogue is on 86th place.
On Anub'Rekhan, a cleave fight, the first Rogue is on 56th place

I don't know which metric you judge Rogues to be fine, but I'd say our job is to do DPS. And for that we underperform compared to other classes.

[Gantulga]

Surprise attack works just fine for it's intended purpose **generating a really cheap combo point on your next swing**. Cheapest combo point to energy ratio, for an ability that isn't subject to glancing blows. This works perfectly in line with dagger rogues being combo point starved prepatch, and now with imp backstab, surprise attack being an unmissable, unblockable, bonus damage cheap combo point, makes for getting 5 combo points or not having wasted potential points, much easier.

Overall ranking in Naxx has the first Rogue on 111th place.
On Patchwerk the first rogue is on 86th place.
On Anub'Rekhan, a cleave fight, the first Rogue is on 56th place

I don't know which metric you judge Rogues to be fine, but I'd say our job is to do DPS. And for that we underperform compared to other classes.

Those rankings also include pre-patch runs where rogue was considerably higher up. The actual situation is even worse.

[Bigsmerf]

As a balance druid I can arguably offer just as much damage mitigation/support almost passively by doing my rotation. No need for reagents, and no need for extra talents that sacrifice damage. Cyclone is a godsend for aoe tanks, and insect swarm is nice for a 2% chance to hit reduction on a boss for almost the entirety of a fight, with no CD, while ALSO doing damage with it? On the opposite spectrum, sub rogue needs to sacrifice their own damage potential and personal power for the trade off of admittedly quite nice support if you can manage your CDs well, but... There's also the issue of reagants. And, again, spending precious GCDs and energy gimping your own performance just so your group can get bonuses that other classes already bring with less effort. Trust me, I -really- like the idea of support rogue, but not only do I think the PvP spec was definitely the worst choice (should've made assass have support with poisons though not at the cost of damage because rogue is already starting to lack there) also... This doesn't seem very fun to play. Some classes base toolkits are better support oriented than your full talented support focused build.

[Akos1896]

I agree. If devs 'oppress' one class that's probably the rogue.
Sub is a nice concept but you shouldn't rob a bank just to be useful (while giving up damage).
From assassination pov envenom is nice but venoms by design are never capstone talent-level strong.

During the first class changes when most classes got some new useful toys, rogues got a new throw (?) and a tank package (?) which only kinda worked from level 60 with the threat poison.
Don't get me wrong, I love this server but I also love to complain.
As things stand, rogue (strictly from PVE POV) is still a worse fury warrior at late-game with the option to rather become a weird support build which not only has bad damage but unlike the support trees of the past, pays a lot of reagents just to do this thing.

What I'd ask:
Give some good scaling to combat tree so they are at least on par with fury (arguably better in some aspect in exchange of the lack of utilities like no off-tanking).
Make the utility tree way less reagent-reliant and make them give up less DPS for the utility they bring.
For assasination - admittedly I haven't done any deep test with them so I could be wrong but I regard that tree the only one which remained without any valid identity. Other rogues go there to buy some talents, just like in the case of the old survival hunter tree. But on its own? By now each other class has 3 talent trees which... do something unique.
I haven't seen an assassination rogue. I don't know what they excel at etc. Imo poisons are too weak to carry a build and crit + poison don't have enough synergy to make this work - unless you add some synergy manually.
It's personal but my dream would be assassination tree becoming a tank tree so that you'd have tank rogue (avoidance-based), pure DPS rogue and utility DPS rogue. But I admit that my idea is radical so I don't really advertise it. In any case, assassination should have an identity which works.

[Piacrt]

Thank you for all the feedback everyone. Bumping to spread awareness!

[Artashir]

Agree with opinion of this post. Rogues are in very, very bad shape. I hope for some changes to uplift little this class. I like more The Burning Crusade talents tree more - not perfect but on a right way.
Few points to make :
- LOW the numbers of ALL CLASS (i think this is the fair way to balance all.The kill speed is insane, you dont even have time to build up combo points, the trash is dead before you even pop something).
- New sub spec is consuming alot of energy and the benefit from buffs/debuffs is low and hard to keep up, compare to the DPS loss you take.
- New assassination sound good at paper, but not scale efficient and the result are weak compere to other DPS like Arcane mages and Arms warriors. (The point is they are same first talent tree like assasination is )
- New sets for deferent class specialization (point out fury warrior, enh.shamans, ret. or prot. paladins) specifically Tier 3. Rogue tier 3 is OUTDATE and it is on his original form from 20 years ago. (The point is : the helm has strengths on it and this stat have very low benefit for rogue class. This is just an example).
P.S. Im sure all be good at the end, i just hope this things to be soon. Special thanks for all who work hard for this server.

[alfredmccoy]

I agree that Rogues are week in this version.cm to feetWe want a more balancing game.

[Piacrt]

Agree with opinion of this post. Rogues are in very, very bad shape. I hope for some changes to uplift little this class. I like more The Burning Crusade talents tree more - not perfect but on a right way.
Few points to make :
- LOW the numbers of ALL CLASS (i think this is the fair way to balance all.The kill speed is insane, you dont even have time to build up combo points, the trash is dead before you even pop something).

Also like TBC, but not sure if its possible with the current client, Combo Points stacking on the Rogue instead of the mob might help with this point. I don't think anyone wants to get nerfed, nor am I advocating for it, just would like to see everyone on similar levels.

[Wethand]

I don't know which metric you judge Rogues to be fine, but I'd say our job is to do DPS. And for that we underperform compared to other classes.

I think he means you can press the buttons and they work, so rogues are fine.
Fine like "technically" they're fine.

[Wethand]

I did try envenom yesterday and I noticed some issues pretty quick, the major issue was keeping all the buffs up S&D, envenom and rupture(taste for blood).

The CP demand for all 3 is outrageous its not very often you'll have all 3 up you just cant maintain 100% up time, the dream 3x CP backstabs with seal fate and imp backstab is far to RNG heavy to provide consistent DPS.

fix it by making envenom and taste for blood have a longer duration.

Also poisons do bugger all damage since they dont scale with anything other than the 25% from envenom, even then 25% isnt enough.
Instant poison for example rank 6, 112-148 damage per proc, with envenom its 140-185.

thank you so very much for my 30 damage increase to instant poison the entire assassination tree is saved, and dont give me the "Oh but you also have a +25% application rate with envenom as well" it isnt enough.

[Bayanni]

Envenom isn't worth taking. Any assassination rogues skip it entirely and just grab the stuff around it. Poisons are still a meme because there's no scaling; the class changes council was either ignored on this issue or overruled by someone who thought they knew better but didn't. Even then, scaling wouldn't make Envenom viable. It's the worst capstone in the game.

[Piacrt]

BUMP! We still have not been heard!

[Feetlover444]

Rogue's should get a buff in their dps but at the same time get an overall NERF in their stunning capabilities, stunlocks from 100-0 should never be possible.

[Velron]

bump!

[Piacrt]

Big shoutout to Vrograg for highlighting this thread on stream!

[Galith]

bro if you think rogues are weak, try playing ele shaman in raids hahahahahahaha

Mate, Elemental Shamans has always been weak in raids. You're only there as an emotional support to other casters with your totems. The difference between the 3 Shaman specs in raids is you either heal while supporting other healers, do low damage while supporting other casters, or totem swap while auto attacking.

What sucks more about rogues is how tailored they are towards Sword specs. The standard 16/8/27 for Sub daggers, CAN be made, but it's underwhelmingly weak. Close Quarter Combat in the Combat tree is a laughable joke for a tiny bit extra crit chance, just go either Assassination, or Sub if you're gonna go dagger.

[amanagor]

bro if you think rogues are weak, try playing ele shaman in raids hahahahahahaha

Mate, Elemental Shamans has always been weak in raids. You're only there as an emotional support to other casters with your totems. The difference between the 3 Shaman specs in raids is you either heal while supporting other healers, do low damage while supporting other casters, or totem swap while auto attacking.

What sucks more about rogues is how tailored they are towards Sword specs. The standard 16/8/27 for Sub daggers, CAN be made, but it's underwhelmingly weak. Close Quarter Combat in the Combat tree is a laughable joke for a tiny bit extra crit chance, just go either Assassination, or Sub if you're gonna go dagger.

Ele brings litteraly 0 support to other casters but ok. Top speedrunning guilds still bring rogues to their raids. They dont ever bring ele sham.

[Akos1896]

Galith:
What you wrote was 100% true in Vanilla but not here, even before CC2.
Some older shaman changes (and custom items) made some impact.
F.ex. you were able to totem swap without losing any cast time.
Nowadays I'm not really raiding but raided a lot before CC2. In my experience resto was goated, enh was indeed a totem swapper Nighfaller (or team really wanted another WF totem) but ele, if consumed properly were among the stronger DPS classes at high raids. Not fire mage ofc but DS/Ruin lock level.

amanagor: Ele brings tranquil air totem if raid lead is sensible, it stacks (in a way) with salvation. If you don't wanna force the ele into a WF group, they make sure that your biggest pumper casters won't overaggro the tank.
In case of rogues: they were valid for speedrun until BWL but at later raids a fury did everything they could do + could OT (+ was better at multitarget).
I'm not saying that even speedrun guilds would turn down a rogue, specially a good one. But from AQ40 and onwards, a combat rogue was a Tesco budget fury warrior.

[Piacrt]

I understand that the shamans are also not happy with this patch, but please make your own threads instead of polluting this space that I have made for ROGUES. Please and thank you!

[Akos1896]

Sorry, didn't want to change topic.

[amanagor]

Galith:
What you wrote was 100% true in Vanilla but not here, even before CC2.
Some older shaman changes (and custom items) made some impact.
F.ex. you were able to totem swap without losing any cast time.
Nowadays I'm not really raiding but raided a lot before CC2. In my experience resto was goated, enh was indeed a totem swapper Nighfaller (or team really wanted another WF totem) but ele, if consumed properly were among the stronger DPS classes at high raids. Not fire mage ofc but DS/Ruin lock level.

amanagor: Ele brings tranquil air totem if raid lead is sensible, it stacks (in a way) with salvation. If you don't wanna force the ele into a WF group, they make sure that your biggest pumper casters won't overaggro the tank.
In case of rogues: they were valid for speedrun until BWL but at later raids a fury did everything they could do + could OT (+ was better at multitarget).
I'm not saying that even speedrun guilds would turn down a rogue, specially a good one. But from AQ40 and onwards, a combat rogue was a Tesco budget fury warrior.

tranquil air totem is useless as caster dps is not the bottle neck for threat, melee groups are. even more so now that they've changed how ignite works. Its just a useless totem, anod not worth the mana to put down.

[Bayanni]

One thing I want to point out is I'm not quite sure why combat swords/axes is reported lower dps post patch than pre-patch. I went through talent-by-talent to see if there were any differences that should reduce dps and, aside from bladeflurry losing half it's haste and using 25 energy every 60s instead of 25 every 120s, I don't see anything. They should be punching harder with poisons now usable with windfury, 2% haste in place of imp SS which is now baseline, and condensing of other talents. However, numbers I'm hearing from 5-6 naxx raiders are around 100 dps loss.

I don't know what formula is working against rogues that wasn't before, but my theory with this information is that some change to the melee damage formulas created an unintended loss in dps, I just don't know where it would be.

[Piacrt]

One thing I want to point out is I'm not quite sure why combat swords/axes is reported lower dps post patch than pre-patch. I went through talent-by-talent to see if there were any differences that should reduce dps and, aside from bladeflurry losing half it's haste and using 25 energy every 60s instead of 25 every 120s, I don't see anything. They should be punching harder with poisons now usable with windfury, 2% haste in place of imp SS which is now baseline, and condensing of other talents. However, numbers I'm hearing from 5-6 naxx raiders are around 100 dps loss.

I don't know what formula is working against rogues that wasn't before, but my theory with this information is that some change to the melee damage formulas created an unintended loss in dps, I just don't know where it would be.

Weapon Skill changes could definitely be a factor.

It is difficult to get 315 for most weapon types. Fists (With Cthun Fist) and Daggers (ACLG) are the easiest but Swords now hard require the new Ouro gloves (that almost no one has), THC, or Human w/Crystal Sword, Anasterians, etc.

315 seems to be the new magical number as opposed to 308 with the old formula.

Trash dies so fast now poisons are less and less important.

The reason I proposed an execute for rogues comes into play here, it gives them an option to contribute more since stuff dies so fast now.

But yeah, talents alone are relatively the same, the Blade Flurry AS nerf was very unnecessary.

A majority of our damage is still auto attacks, so glancing blow penalty is rough if you don't have the right weapon skill.

EDIT: What this means for sword rogues, humans in particular didn't need to waste a gear piece on weapon skill, now they do. They could use Gressil and Iblis without any penalty. Overall this should be minor but if you are using the Ouro gloves, it means you can't use the Cthun belt to keep 8 piece bonus. T3 Belt is pretty bad in comparison.

The difference between Human rogues and other races was huge before the patch, now the swords that off-races coveted are mostly useless and only humans would want them.

EDIT 2: One more thing, before patch Humans could skip a talent point in Weapon Expertise to hit 308, that also gave them an edge that they could invest in Assassination for something like Improved Eviscerate, Weapon Expertise is basically forced on all Rogues now to get to Adrenaline Rush, and humans want it anyway with the skill changes.

Now, it's not like any one of these things is that much of a DPS increase but when you add it all together...