Hello, recently I have heard in one interview with Akalix that the team is working on new custom battleground similar to Eye of the Storm from TBC. I pressume there is still work in progress or maybe there are only plans for new battleground. Nevertheless I see no point in adding new PvP map if there is already custom one that calls for help as if it was in the alpha state - the one that nobody plays, the one that is imbalanced, the one that has fundamental flaws in design. Let's talk about Sunnyglade Valley...
I've organised a few Sunnyglade Valley Events for a few months. The main reason was because this battleground remains still dead even after an update from 10 April 2024 that added some nice changes from my previous feedback. The organised event is actually the only way to experience Sunnyglade Valley in 2024 for community because normally there aren't enough people to start the game even when SGV is the BG of the day (yes, even at peak hours). Sunnyglade Valley is so dead that there is more chance to log in to your character and randomly witness Sunday fishing tournament in Stranglethorn Vale.
During all these events I gathered some feedback from community interested in Sunnyglade. Some comments were taken from the chat in game and some from discord suggestions. I also present my own observations, current problems of SGV and suggestions which I find crucial to improve the battleground.
1. There is only one objective worth fighting for - the castle. Everything else seems to be meaningless.
Probably devs don't know current Sunnyglade Valley meta because they don't play it. But I will tell you:
1. Control the castle, don't go anywhere else, just sit there for the rest of the game.
2. Wait until enemy collects Sparks across whole map and comes to the castle.
3. You kill the enemy in the castle, loot all the Sparks they collected and turn them in to the NPC next to you.
It's the only important point in the whole battleground because in order to win the game, your team must have more Sparks than enemy team so their boss is weak enough. To have more Sparks, your team must control the castle flag because only then the NPC in the castle can accept the Sparks you turn in. By controling the castle, you prevent enemy team from turning in their Sparks. So controling the castle is double win. The design issue is that the castle is the only important point for game result. If you control the castle, you win. If you don't control the castle, you lose. Why is it bad? Because it creates problem that isn't present in any other vanilla battleground. If there is only one straight objective to do, then the team that consists of geared players wins. Let's look at Warsong Gulch for example. You don't need to have stronger team to win the WSG. Strong team can lose if they don't focus on flag, in WSG strategy is as important as gear for match result. Let's look at Arathi Basin. Stronger team can still lose if they select wrong strategy - instead of defending 3 points they will lose if more than half of their team constantly attacks other points. Sunnyglade Valley is like Arathi Basin but with only Blacksmith point to fight for. If there is only one point to fight for the stronger team will ALWAYS win even with the most stupid strategy. No brain brute force is the way to win. I hope you know what I mean.
To fix this issue, other points in SGV should become more important. I will expand my thoughts how do to it in some sections in this topic.
2. Sunnyglade Valley is too small for 20 vs 20 game. It's dead because too many players are needed to start the game.
Geojak wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:27 am 10 people requirred to pop is a mistake and i asked multiple times on the froum fo that to be changed to 4 each side. if its like this, the bg will stay dead forever and devs have a easy way to change that. just lwoer the requirred palyers.
i am also not covinvced 20 players made the bg better. no it made it worse, the central castel is not large enohgh to have fun battles with half a raid team sitting on top of it. 10 was great for the skirmishes it enabled.
people must think the same, becaue noone wants to play it anymore
and no i am not bitching as you put it. this is legitimate critique and i want stuff to improve
At first Sunnyglade Valley was designed as 10 vs 10 battleground. Then suddenly the player limit was raised to 20 vs 20 in one weekly update. It's like you change WSG to allow 20 players for each faction - the change is impactful. There was even forum topic related to this controversial change viewtopic.php?t=8856 . I didn't play SGV back then so my word can't prove it but some people claim it was the main reason Sunnyglade Valley died - with higher player limit the queue required more people to start the match.
My observation is that when SGV game is full, it's obviously overpopulated. I don't know why the devs increased the players cap but let's admit, it was a mistake that created other problems which I mention in this post. For example the small castle that can be effectively blocked by Hunters with frost traps and Mages spamming blizzard rank 1. When fighting for most crucial point requires almost 0 strategy and such cheap AOE tactics then it's not fun. At full-games the castle seems to be very tight place to comfortably fight in.
I have played many SGV games and I think 10 vs 10 or even 15 vs 15 would be perfect. OK maybe 12 vs 12 would be perfect but everyone loves round numbers.
Please lower the number of players needed to start Sunnyglade Valley. I know I asked for it in my previous feedback and the change was introduced, however I haven't even seen this change being actually implemented. It's still unfair for battleground originally intended for 10 vs 10 cap to require 6 vs 6 players to maintain the game. Correct me if I'm wrong: WSG requires 3 vs 3 and AB 5 vs 5? By keeping the starting requirements too high you devs accidently killed your own child.
Please set the player requirements so the 4 vs 4 can keep the game.
3. The castle is too small and has only one way to the top. It's also too easy to defend.
Partly I described this issue in a section above. In general the castle is too small but I think it's not the biggest problem. The worst thing is that there is only one entrance, one stairs, one wall on the way to the flag. It causes some classes to really shine in defending the castle from enemy - Mages can spam blizzard rank 1 all the time, Hunters can use frost traps to achieve same effect as Mages with blizzard. They slow down enemies rushing to the flag while ranged DPS defenders delete the attackers one by one. I like to compare SGV to other battlegrounds. Do things like this occur on crucial points in AB or WSG? In Arathi Basin every point has at least 2 ways to get there. In Warsong Gulch you have 2 ways to get to the flag room: by tunnel or by ramp.
The other sad thing is that the model used for castle is just a random model, I'm 100% sure not used specifically for Sunnyglade. I remember seeing the same model while leveling my alt in Gilneas in one location.
Sunnyglade Valley needs new custom model of the same castle. In another interview with team members I heard that the team has already made some new models for future content, how about revamping the old castle model instead? My suggestions is to add second stairs on the other side of the castle so the Mages and Hunters won't bottleneck everyone. This would not only solve the issue of AOE classes being too strong in defending but also make defending harder. Defenders would have to keep an eye on both sides which requires paying more attention, also ranged DPS won't be able to deal damage from cozy place as before.
4. Towers are useless.
I was actually lying all the time - castle isn't the only point in Sunnyglade Valley. You can also capture the towers.
Controling each tower grants following benefits:
1. Your archers spawn there once the tower is captured.
2. Your team gets 3 sparks over time. (I'm not sure if this number is correct).
3. Everyone in your team receives +25% more Honor for Honorable Kill (HK)(this is stackable with second tower buff).
The problem with 1. is that these archers are useless, the towers are in the middle of nowhere and the archers attack you only if you are within close aggro range.
About 2. - 3 sparks are nothing compared to sparks turned in in the castle. And finally the problem with 3. is that getting Honor via HKs doesn't really work in Vanilla. It's because of hidden Honor mechanic that massively reduces Honor gained from killing specific person if you have already killed them in that day. If I remember correctly, after you kill 5 times same person even indirectly you get 0 Honor for next HKs on that person. And HKs count even if you haven't directly killed the player - simple example: you healed one guy for 500 HP that later killed another player you haven't even seen - you get HK.
In other words this buff is useless because HKs are smaller part of your Honor gain.
The fact that tower gives buff is nice, a shame this specific buff is irrelevant. To fix meaningless tower problem the buff should be changed to something useful... useful enough so both teams have interest in fighting for towers. There are many ways to achieve it for creative devs - the first idea that comes to my mind is:
- Increases Stamina of your team by 30. - that would be the buff for closer tower, by "team" I mean everyone in your team.
- Decreases Stamina of enemy team by 30 - for controling enemy's tower, "enemy team" = everyone from enemy team.
Also because of castle currently being the only objective that is required to win, how about changing the towers into Sparks generators that passively increase your team's score let's say by 5 Sparks per minute for each tower controled? Something similar to Arathi Basin. That would kill 2 birds with one stone:
- Controling the castle wouldn't guarantee the victory making other places relevant.
- The weaker team would have more chance to win if they use smarter strategy than the enemy.
5. Bosses are too easy to kill, they die within a few seconds. They hit like usual Elites.
Before you read anything, watch this video:
For those who don't know how bosses now work in Sunnyglade Valley:
- When both teams combined collect 100 Sparks the faction bosses of both factions will spawn close to their graveyards.
- The HP of both bosses dynamically changes based on difference in number of Sparks collected by both teams - for example if Horde has 100 Sparks collected and Alliance 0, Horde's boss will have massive HP and will be practically unkillable while Alliance boss will have minimum HP and will be easy to kill.
- Current minimum HP of the bosses is 20k HP.
- They are surrounded by adds that have about 3-5k HP and don't respawn.
- They hit like normal Elites.
I have experienced dozens of SGV matches and almost every game one team dominates over the other. The result is that the boss of losing team has minimum HP (currently 20k HP). Boss' HP was nerfed long time ago back when SGV was fresh battleground and apparently these bosses were too hard to kill for 10 man team.
In this topic I want to say that 20k HP for main boss is just very little... In comparison Commanders (mini bosses or harder elites) in AV have similar HP. 20k HP for 10 man is a matter of 10-20 seconds if there are no healers from enemy team nearby that can heal the boss. Just like in that video, the boss was killed under 12 seconds, do you think it is normal to kill faction boss so fast?
In my opinion the minimal HP of the boss should be changed to 50k to avoid the situations like this in the video. It's still not much, for example Balinda and Galvangar in Alterac Valley have about 100k HP. Vanndar and Drek'Thar (final bosses in AV) have 160k HP. 50k HP should at least give enemy team chance to react and heal the boss in time.
Also their damage should be increased. Their auto-attack should deal 1000 damage (that's the damage of mini bosses in AV btw). Currently any Cloth class can tank the boss because their damage is a joke.
6. Bosses can be kited across whole battleground.
Video proof:
As you can see in the video there are no restrictions about boss' positioning so they can be kited for example to the enemy boss and be easily killed. For obvious reasons this shouldn't be possible, it's rather bug than an issue.
Please modify movement speed of the boss so they can't be kited anymore.
Please add a script that prevents boss from moving far away from original spot.
7. The losing team is doomed to lose once the bosses spawn.
This problem is deep. Very deep so I'm not sure if my suggestions would fix this issue but let's try. The problem is when bosses spawn and one team has significant advantage over another in number of Sparks collected. Then losing faction boss has minimum HP and the winning faction boss is practically unkillable. Imagine you are in losing team and bosses spawn. Your friendly boss has 20k HP and enemy boss has 1000k HP. How would you feel? You would probably accept that you have no chance to win even if you somehow capture the castle and turn in Sparks because then enemy team can go straight for your boss. I've seen a lot of SGV matches and I think once one team has 100 or more Sparks advantage changing the tide of the battle is practically impossible - turning in 100 sparks requires empirically more than 10 minutes - good luck with keeping your boss alive for so long while actively securing the castle.
Arathi Basin has similar problem. Quick example about AB - when one team has gathered 1800/2000 resources while another has only 500 it's almost impossible/very hard to win for latter team, you would have to take all bases in order to win. On the other hand, Alterac Valley and Warsong Gulch don't have this problem. In AV defending last base sometimes works. WSG is perfect example how it should work: even if enemy team captured 2/3 flags, you still have chance to win and what's important, you can prevent enemy team from winning by defending your own flag at all cost.
Going back to Sunnyglade Valley...
I think this problem will still exist unless whole "boss phase" of battleground is changed a little.
First of all whole system of dynamical change of bosses' HP is stupid: maybe only 10% of SGV playerbase understands that boss' HP changes based on collected Sparks difference (casuals don't even see boss HP but only health bar). And I dare to say only one person who developed SGV knows the formula how exactly this HP is calculated (LOL).
This formula must be changed. Vanilla WoW is immersive and simple experience so let's apply this philosophy here.
I will try explaining it as simply as possible. First of all typical Sunnyglade Valley game should be divided into 2 phases:
- first phase - starts when the game starts. This phase is all about collecting Sparks as in current state of the game. In first phase there are no bosses spawned.
- second phase - starts when both teams combined collect 100 Sparks (also is currently present in the game). In this phase faction bosses spawn. And here is something new: this phase will last only 5 minutes! So when teams enter this phase they should focus on killing/defending boss because they have only short time to achieve it. As I said this phase should be heavily focused on faction bosses - I will describe how bosses will look like below. When 5 minutes pass, the phase goes back to "first phase", all Sparks collected reset back to 0, bosses despawn and game starts from scratch (details a few paragraphs below).
Instead of dynamic HP of the boss I suggest removing it completely and instead giving buffs or debuffs (that are vissible to everyone) to boss based on Sparks difference. Let's assume normal boss HP should be always 100k. Also let's assume boss has increased size to make him outstanding from surrounding adds. Each 20 Sparks difference new debuff is applied to losing boss.
- First debuff - 20 Sparks difference - Reduces boss' HP by 25k and slightly decreases his size - RESULT: Boss has 75k HP and isn't giantic anymore.
- Second debuff - 40 Sparks difference - Reduces boss' damage done by 50% and removes visual enchant from his weapon - RESULT: Boss has 75k HP, hits for 50% less, isn't giantic anymore and his weapon isn't glowing anymore.
- Third debuff - 60 Sparks difference - Reduces boss' HP by 25k - RESULT: Boss has 50k HP, hits for 50% less, isn't giantic anymore and his weapon isn't glowing anymore.
- Fourth (last) debuff - 80 Sparks difference - Completely despawns the adds. - RESULT: Boss has 50k HP, hits for 50% less, isn't giantic anymore, his weapon isn't glowing anymore and remains alone without any adds close.
These debuffs should be dynamically applied based on Sparks difference of both teams. For example losing team has 85 Sparks less than enemy team. Their boss is vulnerable with having all 4 debuffs applied. However, they manage to take the castle and someone from their team turns in 30 Sparks. Now there is only 55 Sparks difference so the boss is "upgraded" and has only 2 debuffs now.
I find this new system fun because people visually see that they can weaken enemy boss if their team has more Sparks turned in.
Also fourth debuff should be devastating for defenders. The adds should respawn every time boss resets his position making them actually useful.
But that's not everything, the core issue is that usually the defenders have no hope for victory. So my second suggestion is to change "boss phase" or "second phase" again. When 100 Sparks combined are turned in to the NPC in the castle, the bosses should spawn. But unlike in current version of the game they should be spawned only for 5 minutes! When the timer resets to 0 both bosses despawn and all Sparks for both teams are reset to 0 - basically game starts from the scratch again.
This would encourage defenders to really defend their boss and give them hope that the game is not lost yet.
However, I understand that starting new game from scratch without any reward could lead to frustration for both teams so players would try to avoid this "turtle" as they do in AV. So I also suggest giving small amount of Honor and rep (400 Honor and 50 rep) after bosses despawn - I think it's fair.
I know these suggestions are my little dream and probably won't be implemented but at least I think they fix the issue making this battleground satisfying and competetive even if the first "phase" went badly. Same mechanism as in Warsong Gulch if you look closer. Sorry for such long issue haha!
8. Locations of faction bosses are in the middle of nowhere.
The problem is the boss area isn't distinguish at all. It really looks like that some devs selected their spawn in the random place. Compare it to the final bosses of Alterac Valley - they had their own buildings. When you looked inside their final chambers you knew who is the "boss" there. It isn't the same for Sunnyglade Valley. The boss and his adds spawn close to faction graveyard. Another issue is that if you look at that group, you can only guess who is the leader by looking at HP - the boss looks like common soldier. They should be more distinctive. I have already suggested increasing size of a boss a bit.
Another problem is that they spawn in open area between some trees. It's very easy to miss them especially for new players.
My suggestion is to make their area different from surrounding. I have already suggested it in my previous feedback. My idea was to make their base on the hill without trees so everyone can guess where the boss is located.
9. Introduction to the rules of battleground at the beggining of the game is redundant.
Originally there was no introduction to the SGV. However, devs got feedback that many players were joining the game and didn't know what to do so they added NPC that explains the rules at the pre-game. There are some problems with this NPC:
1. They start their monologue explaining the rules a few seconds after the first person joins the battleground.
2. This monologue is spoken very very fast - even if you can read fast you will have problem with seeing everything, understanding is also another thing.
3. Most people don't even see this introduction because they join in the middle of the game. I have seen many SGVs and the start is always looking similar: there are only a few people in both teams and as time passes the rest joins the match in the middle. It's more related to queue working not properly.
4. It's annoying for people who know Sunnyglade. This monologue is a spam.
These 4 things combined make the introduction redundant. It was added to address lack of knowledge problem of players. However, I think the introduction was a bad way to do it.
Blizzard addressed this problem properly in late Vanilla. When AV was added most people also didn't know what to do and there weren't any guides to it I believe. So in one of the latest patches of Vanilla Blizzard added a quest to the NPC near AV entrance in Hillsbrad Foothills. From that quest you got a book that was actually a guide for Alterac Valley. Players could study it before going to AV to have some basic knowledge. The book can also be received for free from vendor NPC if I remember correctly so you could always retrieve the book if you destroyed it earlier.
My suggestion: add a guide book to Sunnyglade Valley similar to AV one. Can also be received by a quest in Caverns of Time for example. The book I'm referring to: https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=19483 or https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=19 ... -the-onion.
I know the problem is that people generally still don't know how to play this battleground. However, nothing can be done about it. Even adding a book won't solve the problem completely. Time is required here. In 2005 people didn't know how to play AV, too. Now it looks much better.
10. Custom trinkets can't be traded between the players.
We need QoL change here. There are a few custom trinkets that are Sunnyglade Valley specific. They can't be taken outside the BG. Trinkets can be acquired in multiple ways: doing a quest, taking from object in the castle and most importantly by killing enemy players who have them in their inventory (if you kill someone their trinkets will be automatically moved to your bag). The problem is that these trinkets are soulbound and some of them are useless or not as useful as for other classes. For example the trinket that gives +1000 spirit that is very useful for casters/healers but useless for melee (it's great for Troll Warrior btw). Or the one that gives 1000 Attack Power, amazing for every melee, useless for casters. The trinkets are looted automatically and because they are soulbound they can't be passed to anyone in your raid group.
Please make these trinkets tradeable. That would make the trinkets even more effective and everyone who plays SGV would benefit it. It also encourages team play not only by fighting but also by giving the trinket to the person that needs it the most.
11. Horde has shorter way to the castle at the beginning - distance imbalance.
The image is self-explanatory. I've tested it several times with friends from another faction. With same speed and epic riding Horde has about 5 seconds advantage at racing to the castle when the game starts. 5 seconds makes huge difference because capturing the flag requires 10 seconds. If Alliance is too slow, Horde can capture the castle without fighting.
Distance is one reason. Another one is that Horde's got shorter segment of water to swim through while Alliance's got deep long distance of water. You can see the difference on that image. Yes, the speed run strategy requires to go in straight line, that's the fastest way.
Please change terrain a bit so Horde has longer distance of water. Make this race finally balanced.
12. Some kind of alert should be given to the player when their boss is being attacked/second phase starts.
I love the alert sound devs added after my first feedback. Currently if boss is attacked everyone hears usual battleground sound alert. I think it's bugged a bit because even Horde gets this notification when Alliance's boss is being attacked. The sound should be heard only for players of faction whose boss is being attacked not to confuse attackers.
My another suggestion is to implement something that is used in AQ40 when you enter Twin Emperors' room. If you enter that room, you will see information in the middle top of your screen. This message is displayed in same place as the raid warning. It would be cool if there was this info displayed when second phase of battleground starts, something like "Faction leaders have just spawned.". And when your boss is attacked there should be similar warning displayed: "Your boss is being attacked!". It would make the game more casual friendly, all noobs would know what to do next.
13. Chat spam when someone dies.
Every time someone who holds Sparks in the bags dies, everyone close sees the system message that "X has stolen Y Sparks from Z". Even if player Z had only 1 Spark. It creates a mess in the chat sometimes. Why should we know that someone took 1 Spark from someone? Is this information any useful?
I don't mind these messages being displayed, however they should be displayed only if someone looted 10 or more Sparks. Such condition would filter and show only valuable messages.
14. Goblin Brainwashing Device Bug.
(I was sure that I recorded video of this bug, however I can't find it anywhere so you must trust me the bug is real.)
Someone found a bug that allows anyone move from starting place before the game starts. All you need to do is to reset your talents via Goblin Brainwashing Device, then the blockade will fade from you allowing you to move without any limits. It allows to capture the castle earlier than anyone else.
Fix it please.
15. Players can get stuck in this house.
This house is located north of the castle. If you jump on the roof as in the video, you will be trapped.
Fix it please.
Other community suggestions and opinions.
Suggestion to change the towers and castle flags so the capturing part works like towers in Eastern Plaguelands.
Opinion.
Some people don't like "gathering" part of battleground. Instead of fighting we are forced to look for Sparks and to wait 5 seconds to loot them each time. I think the author wanted some automatic process of Sparks generation like in my suggestion about giving towers passive Sparks over time. Just like in Arathi Basin: if you capture the Gold Mine, you don't have to pick supplies from the cave and transport them to the cart in front of the Gold Mine or whatever. Instead there is visual change that your faction NPCs spawn in the Gold Mine and work for your faction. And score is automatically added without any interaction.
Feel free to discuss these issues here. Maybe I'm biased in some of them. Share your opinion.
