Hello,
I would like to ask if any of the following changes have been implemented or will be implemented at some point in the future:
1) Increase max item stack size, at least for reagents.
2) Lower respec costs and/or enable dual spec.
3) Lower cast times and/or mana costs for QoL spells, like mages making food and water faster and cheaper, or faster mounting etc.
4) Lower mana cost and/or increase buff duration.
5) Increase flight master mounts speed.
6) Any class balance (unless you 're ok with 15 warriors and 1 druid online like it is now for the rest of the game, i ll be selling my motw). Even QoL buffs like aura effect increases etc to get us in groups or mana cost reductions to make leveling/itemization less of a hell.
7) HS cd reduction.
I could probably think of more, just want to see how open you are to changes...
QoL changes
Re: QoL changes
Hello,
I like your two first ideas:
- larger stacks - now some items are limited to 5 or 10 in a stack, setting 20 for all would be nice.
- cheaper/easier respec would surely be handy for every one due to limited server population, maybe even a "respec" token that is quite easy to drop INSTEAD of cheaper respecs?
I assume however the dual-spec as it appears in WotLK won't be possible to implement as this would need changes on client side (probably).
I don't like the rest of your QoL ideas as they impact game "balance" too much - nerfing/boosting class abilities to achieve balance could have no end after all... Also I don't feel the QoL abilities require boost - like for example (maybe not best one) Hunter's Revive Pet - currently it costs a lot of mana and takes 10s to cast. However it still can be used in combat, so when you pet is killed, you can immediately resurect it - is this combat or QoL ability? Should it be boosted then? Wouldn't this be an advantage over other classes? It would be hard to decide which non-blizzlike balance adjustments are Ok and which aren't.
Regarding shorter HS cooldown, I like the fact that long cooldown requires you to plan exactly your journey time and activities, calculate what else you can do on the way to your destination and when to use HS to return to home... - thus I preffer a solution that you have second HS (obtainable via quest or something), that also has a long CD (could be even longer that 1h) but can be assigned to different location - this way you still have to plan your journeys but you are not limited to single "home". See how it works in case druids - they have both: HS and teleport to Moonglade, that allows them to quickly move to northern Kalimdor regardless of their HS location.
On the other hand, such change will make mage's portals less important - so again it somewhat breaks the balance as mages wouldn't be making that much money on portals...
I like your two first ideas:
- larger stacks - now some items are limited to 5 or 10 in a stack, setting 20 for all would be nice.
- cheaper/easier respec would surely be handy for every one due to limited server population, maybe even a "respec" token that is quite easy to drop INSTEAD of cheaper respecs?
I assume however the dual-spec as it appears in WotLK won't be possible to implement as this would need changes on client side (probably).
I don't like the rest of your QoL ideas as they impact game "balance" too much - nerfing/boosting class abilities to achieve balance could have no end after all... Also I don't feel the QoL abilities require boost - like for example (maybe not best one) Hunter's Revive Pet - currently it costs a lot of mana and takes 10s to cast. However it still can be used in combat, so when you pet is killed, you can immediately resurect it - is this combat or QoL ability? Should it be boosted then? Wouldn't this be an advantage over other classes? It would be hard to decide which non-blizzlike balance adjustments are Ok and which aren't.
Regarding shorter HS cooldown, I like the fact that long cooldown requires you to plan exactly your journey time and activities, calculate what else you can do on the way to your destination and when to use HS to return to home... - thus I preffer a solution that you have second HS (obtainable via quest or something), that also has a long CD (could be even longer that 1h) but can be assigned to different location - this way you still have to plan your journeys but you are not limited to single "home". See how it works in case druids - they have both: HS and teleport to Moonglade, that allows them to quickly move to northern Kalimdor regardless of their HS location.
On the other hand, such change will make mage's portals less important - so again it somewhat breaks the balance as mages wouldn't be making that much money on portals...
Maelstrom, Night Elf Druid
Namito, High Elf Mage
Adashi, Night Elf Hunter
Namito, High Elf Mage
Adashi, Night Elf Hunter
-
Talespinner
- Posts: 20
Re: QoL changes
Hi.
Please do not increase reagent stacks, it incentivizes bigger bags and bank slots and makes them feel more rewarding.
Lowering respec costs might be ok, but considering the relaxed nature of the server I think respeccing to min-max pvp, pve, and farming isn't very necessary at the moment: being committed to a spec and personalizing the spec is an important part of vanilla, and dual spec/very low respec costs ruin it.
Please do not lower cast times of QoL spells. Conjuring and soulstones should be important and things you shouldn't forget: making them "easier" to cast makes forgetting them less impactful. Reducing mount cast times substantially influences PvP, so do not change this under any circumstances.
Please do not increase flight speed, I like being able to AFK and check messages or sort IRL things while in flight.
Please do not change the classes at all, I will play a Moonkin and I like the way it plays as it was in Vanilla. If it is buffed beyond what was possible in Vanilla WoW, I will quit.
Please do not shorten Hearthstone cooldowns, as having it on cooldown can influence decisions to go into caves, to fly around and turn in quests at various locations, to do dungeons, and even to take res sickness.
Please do not increase reagent stacks, it incentivizes bigger bags and bank slots and makes them feel more rewarding.
Lowering respec costs might be ok, but considering the relaxed nature of the server I think respeccing to min-max pvp, pve, and farming isn't very necessary at the moment: being committed to a spec and personalizing the spec is an important part of vanilla, and dual spec/very low respec costs ruin it.
Please do not lower cast times of QoL spells. Conjuring and soulstones should be important and things you shouldn't forget: making them "easier" to cast makes forgetting them less impactful. Reducing mount cast times substantially influences PvP, so do not change this under any circumstances.
Please do not increase flight speed, I like being able to AFK and check messages or sort IRL things while in flight.
Please do not change the classes at all, I will play a Moonkin and I like the way it plays as it was in Vanilla. If it is buffed beyond what was possible in Vanilla WoW, I will quit.
Please do not shorten Hearthstone cooldowns, as having it on cooldown can influence decisions to go into caves, to fly around and turn in quests at various locations, to do dungeons, and even to take res sickness.
Premier Vanilla Moonkin
Re: QoL changes
On the first post that was serious and not "i like to afk when i fly so don't fix this for everyone because i want to afk and fly and not find myself at the flight master".
I consider the first 2 easier to implement and HS a really needed change that benefits everyone. Also revive pet affects in game balance and its not the kind of ability i was talking about, but creating water or longer buff duration should have no impact in pvp (not like you run out of a 10/30 minute buff) but it could save lots of time rebuffing 40 people in pve (dungeons and raids alike). Mounting should also not be an issue since we are pve server and not pvp.
I dont see anything about flight master, i hope that would be no issue, some travel times in vanilla -were many flight areas aren't connected and you have to flight through every single flight master in between- are so insane, like 10-15 minutes and its pointless waste of time which could be used for instancing, questing or w/e else.
I suppose class balance is the hardest to get around, especially with some people thinking blizzlike means you copy a patch and play braindead the same way for 2 years where we had to theory craft and adapt with every minor patch, but blizz showed us that class balance is the way to go. Wotlk and vanilla are the most loved expansions because one had the original hard feeling and the other had class balance WITH class identity. Combining the two is only an improvement. For example since moonkin was pointed out, giving them threat reduction or some spell hit or any qol chance that was introduced in tbc or wotlk but doesn't affect pvp if that is the issue (where they also need help compared to feral/resto but that is another story) should make them more appealing without "breaking" anything or getting them above -or for that matter even near- other dps classes (if a late game warrior/mage can do 1500+ dps with BoS and a decent tank then a same quality geared moonkin can do 700 with more consumables).
A few specs could use a hand without making them op and many people won't play vanilla BECAUSE they can't play what they like. Proof: every time i m online horde has 1-3 druids and 12-15 warriors. Join a tbc/wotlk server and they re mostly equal. Its not that people like warriors, its that you missed 10+ druids because the class is vastly underpowered in pve and slightly in pvp and has shit itemization.
It doesn't even have to be just personal improvement. A moonkin that gives 3% crit AND 3% hit with aura would be really welcome at a late game scenario even with such a dps gap with other classes, same with a retri pala that has sanctity aura provide some other small boost to make him welcome in raid/dungeons or an ench shaman that has threat reduction and doesnt have to die every boss fight and ankh losing every buff and most of his damage/
I m not talking about huge changes but important, small QoL changes.
I consider the first 2 easier to implement and HS a really needed change that benefits everyone. Also revive pet affects in game balance and its not the kind of ability i was talking about, but creating water or longer buff duration should have no impact in pvp (not like you run out of a 10/30 minute buff) but it could save lots of time rebuffing 40 people in pve (dungeons and raids alike). Mounting should also not be an issue since we are pve server and not pvp.
I dont see anything about flight master, i hope that would be no issue, some travel times in vanilla -were many flight areas aren't connected and you have to flight through every single flight master in between- are so insane, like 10-15 minutes and its pointless waste of time which could be used for instancing, questing or w/e else.
I suppose class balance is the hardest to get around, especially with some people thinking blizzlike means you copy a patch and play braindead the same way for 2 years where we had to theory craft and adapt with every minor patch, but blizz showed us that class balance is the way to go. Wotlk and vanilla are the most loved expansions because one had the original hard feeling and the other had class balance WITH class identity. Combining the two is only an improvement. For example since moonkin was pointed out, giving them threat reduction or some spell hit or any qol chance that was introduced in tbc or wotlk but doesn't affect pvp if that is the issue (where they also need help compared to feral/resto but that is another story) should make them more appealing without "breaking" anything or getting them above -or for that matter even near- other dps classes (if a late game warrior/mage can do 1500+ dps with BoS and a decent tank then a same quality geared moonkin can do 700 with more consumables).
A few specs could use a hand without making them op and many people won't play vanilla BECAUSE they can't play what they like. Proof: every time i m online horde has 1-3 druids and 12-15 warriors. Join a tbc/wotlk server and they re mostly equal. Its not that people like warriors, its that you missed 10+ druids because the class is vastly underpowered in pve and slightly in pvp and has shit itemization.
It doesn't even have to be just personal improvement. A moonkin that gives 3% crit AND 3% hit with aura would be really welcome at a late game scenario even with such a dps gap with other classes, same with a retri pala that has sanctity aura provide some other small boost to make him welcome in raid/dungeons or an ench shaman that has threat reduction and doesnt have to die every boss fight and ankh losing every buff and most of his damage/
I m not talking about huge changes but important, small QoL changes.
Re: QoL changes
You sure put a lot of thought into this, but I still think Talespinner has the better arguments.
-
Talespinner
- Posts: 20
Re: QoL changes
If you want me to take this seriously, then I will.Ethismos wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:19 pmOn the first post that was serious and not "i like to afk when i fly so don't fix this for everyone because i want to afk and fly and not find myself at the flight master".
I consider the first 2 easier to implement and HS a really needed change that benefits everyone. Also revive pet affects in game balance and its not the kind of ability i was talking about, but creating water or longer buff duration should have no impact in pvp (not like you run out of a 10/30 minute buff) but it could save lots of time rebuffing 40 people in pve (dungeons and raids alike). Mounting should also not be an issue since we are pve server and not pvp.
I dont see anything about flight master, i hope that would be no issue, some travel times in vanilla -were many flight areas aren't connected and you have to flight through every single flight master in between- are so insane, like 10-15 minutes and its pointless waste of time which could be used for instancing, questing or w/e else.
I suppose class balance is the hardest to get around, especially with some people thinking blizzlike means you copy a patch and play braindead the same way for 2 years where we had to theory craft and adapt with every minor patch, but blizz showed us that class balance is the way to go. Wotlk and vanilla are the most loved expansions because one had the original hard feeling and the other had class balance WITH class identity. Combining the two is only an improvement. For example since moonkin was pointed out, giving them threat reduction or some spell hit or any qol chance that was introduced in tbc or wotlk but doesn't affect pvp if that is the issue (where they also need help compared to feral/resto but that is another story) should make them more appealing without "breaking" anything or getting them above -or for that matter even near- other dps classes (if a late game warrior/mage can do 1500+ dps with BoS and a decent tank then a same quality geared moonkin can do 700 with more consumables).
A few specs could use a hand without making them op and many people won't play vanilla BECAUSE they can't play what they like. Proof: every time i m online horde has 1-3 druids and 12-15 warriors. Join a tbc/wotlk server and they re mostly equal. Its not that people like warriors, its that you missed 10+ druids because the class is vastly underpowered in pve and slightly in pvp and has shit itemization.
It doesn't even have to be just personal improvement. A moonkin that gives 3% crit AND 3% hit with aura would be really welcome at a late game scenario even with such a dps gap with other classes, same with a retri pala that has sanctity aura provide some other small boost to make him welcome in raid/dungeons or an ench shaman that has threat reduction and doesnt have to die every boss fight and ankh losing every buff and most of his damage/
I m not talking about huge changes but important, small QoL changes.
I don't see how lowering the Hearthstone timer is a needed change. If it was lowered to even 30 minutes it would drastically change how I use it and how I interact with the world. I would be using it to go back after every single round of questing, and porting out of almost every cave instead of fighting my way through it or taking resurrection sickness. It becomes more like the Scroll of Town Portal from Diablo instead of the Hearthstone I know and love.
If you change mounting time you change the way battlegrounds like AV, AB, and WSG are played. If players mount at half the time it takes, it lowers the effectiveness of flag carriers since defense will have a substantial advantage in terms of speed if the flag carrier isn't using every speed consumable. It will also affect the WSG rollout and may make getting boots in the tunnel an active harm instead of being about equal. And if you are the type who enjoys WPvP, then changing mount time will make escaping with your mount way too easy. If you can conjure a mana crystal for very little mana and quite quickly, then it removes it having to be remembered beforehand as you can conjure it relatively quickly. Getting evocation sets and Mind-Quickening Gem to make conjuring the raid's food and water is unique. Making certain abilities low-cost influences the gameplay way too much. Though the situations that the gameplay is influenced are few, I can say that they matter enough that waiting a couple extra seconds in the situations where they don't are a crucial tax: especially when you consider the server we're playing on.
If you want to talk about class balance, then please do your research and think. Players will roll warrior because they're the most reliable DPS and most reliable tank. If you make the other classes a little bit better, it won't change their mind as they still just want to be the best. And if you make the other classes substantially better than warrior, then you will anger every single warrior player as they might consider rerolling to adhere to that philosophy of having the best tools to work with. And this is not to mention that almost every single class and spec CAN be taken to a raid. I've outdps'd many mages, warlocks, and even melees as a moonkin, and it's not hard to figure out why. Sure, it's not "optimal raid composition" but even getting to a fully optimized status is ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE on this server. For starters, you're going to need just about every single player on your faction to get the manpower for the raid, no matter their class, spec, or even gear. There is a pretty substantial lack of hardcore players on the server, as evidenced by there being substantial gaps in the higher levels while levelling, and the number of these players are arguably not enough to fill a 20 man raid. And lastly, even the most hardcore guilds in private server existence still haven't achieved "optimal raid composition" as they may run a Shadow Priest (which is arguably worse than moonkin), or refuse to run a Bear Tank (Hey, feral tanks are actually optimal for maximizing TPS! Turns out them being "vastly underpowered" in PvE is a complete misconception!), or have members who don't have engineering or mages who don't have Improved Arcane Explosion. If even the most hardcore of the hardcore can't achieve a fully optimal raid composition, then why the hell should it EVER be a concern for those who don't go all-out? Changing the balance of classes is wholly pointless as there are methods to pulling your weight for every single class and spec, and it is 100% impossible to pursue a truly hardcore mindset on this server. It's not the fault of the game that players don't do the research to understand that almost no class in vanilla is completely underpowered.
If you want me to further deconstruct your argument, then I can offer some facts. Moonkin don't need added hit to their aura, and it would really mess up itemization for your raid and you would need 100% attendance or you screw over the best casters in your raid: I would actively despise this "buff." I would even consider threat reduction to be a deficit, as I like to offtank as a Moonkin in dungeons, and if I pull in raid I can always pop a Limited Invulnerability Potion and the problem's solved. Ferals can compete with rogues if you check the logs of the best feral, and can trash any rogue that isn't on their skill level. Enhance shamans should never die to overaggro if they're using Nightfall or have a tank that's outputting sufficient threat, especially if you have a feral tank. And if you want to talk dungeons, then Moonkin is incredibly good as they have all the tools for wipe prevention and making the dungeon run smoothly, as they only lack CC and easy mana regeneration: similar arguments can be made for Ret/Prot Pally, Enhance/Elemental Shaman, and an array of other classes. Balance is actually one of the best PvP specs in the game if you spec it right. Rets may be optimal if your goal is to have maximum Nightfall uptime, and can even output sufficient healing with the right setup. That's right, theorycrafting is still alive and well for vanilla and we're not just playing the same game over and over again: Fire and Deep Demonlogy warlock may in fact be optimal for raids, if their glaring issues are solved. If you just buff the classes, it completely changes the way a vanilla class plays, and at that point, why wouldn't I just play on a WOTLK or TBC server for more balanced and well thought-out PvE and PvP than any Vanilla-based server could ever accomplish?
Premier Vanilla Moonkin
Re: QoL changes
So, by being serious you now ignore 4 of the 7 points.
An improved hearthstone would make you not have to run out of a cave etc less. Lets assume you need like 5-6 days played to get to 60 -could be a bit more here-, how many times do you have to do this? Leveling in symmetry a couple of months ago i remember this happening like 2-3 times at 55+ levels where i had to go in a cave for a SINGLE quest, doing NOTHING else. You know how many times i needed it because i had to afk or leave and wouldn't like to respawn in an area full of agro mobs, or because a party broke and i was stack in the wrong area for 20-30 more minutes with alternative being about the same time of flight paths and zeppelins? At least 20. Those 2-3 times that a hearthstone would help you in a cave it would help you more -as exp/hour- to just go out of the cave the same way killing everything, the other 20 times it was blizzard wasting your time so you play less and pay more. No reason to keep such a mechanic.
About the mounting yes it has effects in pvp, i do care about it less that other suggestions i did - and i have more of those - so if you re stuck at it do the other 6 or w/e. In pve server the positive of saving you hours in total gametime massively outweights one time where someone mounted half a second before you get him back in combat but if its hard to convince you when you have no points it would be harder to convince you when you have one so i won't try.
And last about the pve balance. If you have played ench shaman, ele shaman, prot paladin, balance druid, feral druid etc etc you should know they are underpowered. A lot. The argument "if the other person sucks and i have tripple their gear i can outdps them at one encounter" is no argument. Any actual logs you check can't have a balance druid above 800 dps in absolute best scenario for a druid were a 1500+ damage for mage/rogue/warrior is common. Our entry dps for MC with BiS is like.. 250-300 dps which we can't sustain and those 3 classes can sustain 450-500? So mc to t3 we 're half dps with utility that doesn't cover the gap.
So if a moonkin had 3% hit in the aura or their crit to 5% or some other change or a talent (which you SURPRISINGLY could skip if you want to) for threat reduction and could make people get 1-2 of you in a raid like they do with a shadow priest, that would be a bad thing because 1) you only want to join a raid because they couldn't get 40 people, 2) all hit capped caster in your vanilla raid would be "screwed" if you weren't there with your insane buff because they would change their items around it. Ok.
Feral tanks aren't optimal anywhere in 1.12. Not in 5 mans and not in 95% of bosses, one bwl boss comes to mind, maybe i forget 1 more. Heck they aren't close to it when at 1.12 warriors can get armor capped with 2.5 times their avoidance and their threat is mostly fixed with ss.
As for pvp, you can improve a class without changing the pvp part of it (threat reduction, mana regen, spell hit, better auras, pve itemization etc) and a 30/0/21 druid is ok as a healer because of the general druid survivability, but not close to a geared warrior/mage/lock/rogue etc. CC is the name of the game, you can occasionally run from it as a druid or survive as a shaman/prot pally but that doesn't make your pvp good. Also if you base it on "omg crit 2k moonkin" a pom pyro mage can do 5-6k in same level gear and one shot actually geared targets and late game rogues can AUTO crit you for 800+.
Rets optimal with nightfall means: bringing one ret to carry one item a warrior or hunter could carry to give us a buff and suck in all other aspects is optimal. I can't accept that as optimal.
Theorcrafting in vanilla is not active for years. One improvement every 3-4 years is not active theorycrafting. Pservers decide to not patch and balance and fix stuff so theorycrafting is dead for the most part.
So why would you play a shaman or prot pally or a druid that gave better group/raid pve utility in vanilla. Dunno, its outrageous to even think about it, i must be insane and it ruins your vanilla experience. I am sorry.
An improved hearthstone would make you not have to run out of a cave etc less. Lets assume you need like 5-6 days played to get to 60 -could be a bit more here-, how many times do you have to do this? Leveling in symmetry a couple of months ago i remember this happening like 2-3 times at 55+ levels where i had to go in a cave for a SINGLE quest, doing NOTHING else. You know how many times i needed it because i had to afk or leave and wouldn't like to respawn in an area full of agro mobs, or because a party broke and i was stack in the wrong area for 20-30 more minutes with alternative being about the same time of flight paths and zeppelins? At least 20. Those 2-3 times that a hearthstone would help you in a cave it would help you more -as exp/hour- to just go out of the cave the same way killing everything, the other 20 times it was blizzard wasting your time so you play less and pay more. No reason to keep such a mechanic.
About the mounting yes it has effects in pvp, i do care about it less that other suggestions i did - and i have more of those - so if you re stuck at it do the other 6 or w/e. In pve server the positive of saving you hours in total gametime massively outweights one time where someone mounted half a second before you get him back in combat but if its hard to convince you when you have no points it would be harder to convince you when you have one so i won't try.
And last about the pve balance. If you have played ench shaman, ele shaman, prot paladin, balance druid, feral druid etc etc you should know they are underpowered. A lot. The argument "if the other person sucks and i have tripple their gear i can outdps them at one encounter" is no argument. Any actual logs you check can't have a balance druid above 800 dps in absolute best scenario for a druid were a 1500+ damage for mage/rogue/warrior is common. Our entry dps for MC with BiS is like.. 250-300 dps which we can't sustain and those 3 classes can sustain 450-500? So mc to t3 we 're half dps with utility that doesn't cover the gap.
So if a moonkin had 3% hit in the aura or their crit to 5% or some other change or a talent (which you SURPRISINGLY could skip if you want to) for threat reduction and could make people get 1-2 of you in a raid like they do with a shadow priest, that would be a bad thing because 1) you only want to join a raid because they couldn't get 40 people, 2) all hit capped caster in your vanilla raid would be "screwed" if you weren't there with your insane buff because they would change their items around it. Ok.
Feral tanks aren't optimal anywhere in 1.12. Not in 5 mans and not in 95% of bosses, one bwl boss comes to mind, maybe i forget 1 more. Heck they aren't close to it when at 1.12 warriors can get armor capped with 2.5 times their avoidance and their threat is mostly fixed with ss.
As for pvp, you can improve a class without changing the pvp part of it (threat reduction, mana regen, spell hit, better auras, pve itemization etc) and a 30/0/21 druid is ok as a healer because of the general druid survivability, but not close to a geared warrior/mage/lock/rogue etc. CC is the name of the game, you can occasionally run from it as a druid or survive as a shaman/prot pally but that doesn't make your pvp good. Also if you base it on "omg crit 2k moonkin" a pom pyro mage can do 5-6k in same level gear and one shot actually geared targets and late game rogues can AUTO crit you for 800+.
Rets optimal with nightfall means: bringing one ret to carry one item a warrior or hunter could carry to give us a buff and suck in all other aspects is optimal. I can't accept that as optimal.
Theorcrafting in vanilla is not active for years. One improvement every 3-4 years is not active theorycrafting. Pservers decide to not patch and balance and fix stuff so theorycrafting is dead for the most part.
So why would you play a shaman or prot pally or a druid that gave better group/raid pve utility in vanilla. Dunno, its outrageous to even think about it, i must be insane and it ruins your vanilla experience. I am sorry.
Re: QoL changes
I'm not sure if we should focus that much on these DPS / Raid performance things, the main approach on our server is (according to main page, promotional materials etc.) to be rush and stress free, mild RP with a PvE on a level that our low population would allow.
Thus, in my opinion, all those DPS-race topics simply doesn't really matter, just play a class/spec that is satisfying and good for you. Even if you don't plan to role-play much, there are specs which you surely prefer more, just don't try to compare with others and simply enjoy the game.
Due to lower population and general approach to be a rush free/relaxing place, you should not expected any hardcore raiding soon anyway. Same with PvP.
So I think any balance adjustments are simply not needed, as there always by someone unsatisfied. Even if they would "fix" some vanilla sins, it can bring even more toxic complaining.
It's the same as discussions among hunters: which pet is better for - let's say - leveling. Some people argue "the pet with claw/bite/rake "etc. or "the bear, because..." and some ppl just tame the pet they like for its RP value / appearance etc although it may be shit in statistics.
Same with classes - wanna be top DPS ? play a class that tops others on this patch. Wanna play druid - play it and ppl will still love you, as we turtles all love each other no matter how good you are!
Thus, in my opinion, all those DPS-race topics simply doesn't really matter, just play a class/spec that is satisfying and good for you. Even if you don't plan to role-play much, there are specs which you surely prefer more, just don't try to compare with others and simply enjoy the game.
Due to lower population and general approach to be a rush free/relaxing place, you should not expected any hardcore raiding soon anyway. Same with PvP.
So I think any balance adjustments are simply not needed, as there always by someone unsatisfied. Even if they would "fix" some vanilla sins, it can bring even more toxic complaining.
It's the same as discussions among hunters: which pet is better for - let's say - leveling. Some people argue "the pet with claw/bite/rake "etc. or "the bear, because..." and some ppl just tame the pet they like for its RP value / appearance etc although it may be shit in statistics.
Same with classes - wanna be top DPS ? play a class that tops others on this patch. Wanna play druid - play it and ppl will still love you, as we turtles all love each other no matter how good you are!
Maelstrom, Night Elf Druid
Namito, High Elf Mage
Adashi, Night Elf Hunter
Namito, High Elf Mage
Adashi, Night Elf Hunter
Re: QoL changes
Hi Ethismos!
Maybe I don't understand something, but if you want the features of WoTLK, why then don't you go play at a WoTLK server?
I, for one, want to try "how the life was" in Vanilla, and I'm pretty sure most of your proposals will change that experience drastically. And I've deliberately chosen this server because I want Vanilla features, and when I see something is different from what I'm accustomed to in WoTLK, my thought is not "oh, please make 15 min HS, please make bigger stacks...", but "Well, that's how it is here, let's see how will I cope with that". Your proposals are not "QoL changes", but "breaking Vanilla experience" changes.
And this server's selling point is RP, relax, no rush, and so far I'm all right with that. Bugs are annoying a bit at the moment, but fixes are coming sooner than later. When I want something that's connected to numbers and percents and minmaxing, I simply go to another server, that has normal XP, WPVP, no RP, etc etc. There are PVP servers, x50 servers, fun servers with everything customized, you can play a walrus druid or a naga monk... This one has it's own conceptual charm. And
, of course.
Well, I could accept if the crew puts a 15 min HS in the shop, for, say, 250 Turtle points. Let those who want it so badly vote with their wallet. I'm OK with 60 min, and the current flight speed, and if I'm ever in trouble because of stacks size, I will buy a humongous bag, but now it's not a problem for me.
Maybe I don't understand something, but if you want the features of WoTLK, why then don't you go play at a WoTLK server?
I, for one, want to try "how the life was" in Vanilla, and I'm pretty sure most of your proposals will change that experience drastically. And I've deliberately chosen this server because I want Vanilla features, and when I see something is different from what I'm accustomed to in WoTLK, my thought is not "oh, please make 15 min HS, please make bigger stacks...", but "Well, that's how it is here, let's see how will I cope with that". Your proposals are not "QoL changes", but "breaking Vanilla experience" changes.
And this server's selling point is RP, relax, no rush, and so far I'm all right with that. Bugs are annoying a bit at the moment, but fixes are coming sooner than later. When I want something that's connected to numbers and percents and minmaxing, I simply go to another server, that has normal XP, WPVP, no RP, etc etc. There are PVP servers, x50 servers, fun servers with everything customized, you can play a walrus druid or a naga monk... This one has it's own conceptual charm. And
, of course.Well, I could accept if the crew puts a 15 min HS in the shop, for, say, 250 Turtle points. Let those who want it so badly vote with their wallet. I'm OK with 60 min, and the current flight speed, and if I'm ever in trouble because of stacks size, I will buy a humongous bag, but now it's not a problem for me.
-
Talespinner
- Posts: 20
Re: QoL changes
I'll go through the other points quickly.
Don't increase reagent size, as it makes bag space and bank space less valuable. Why would anybody create a reagent bag for their bank if regular bags were sufficient?
Committing to a specialization is important. You can hybridize between specs in vanilla and still perform well in both areas; lowering respec removes this aspect of the game that allows you to make a personalized spec. It's not the most optimal, but again, you never need to be completely optimal in 100% of Vanilla content. I do agree with lowering respec costs where the majority of the playerbase has the min-max mindset for pvp, farming, and pve, but in Turtle WoW I don't see how these will be necessary.
Lowering mana costs of buffs lessens the effect of Purge in PvP, as you can reapply the buffs for very little mana.
Increasing flight speed increases the power of world buffs. If you spend 10 minutes flying to Felwood for Songflower buff (after getting DM buffs) and then flying to MC/BWL, but lessen that travel time to 2-5 minutes, you can have the world buff last for much longer. 5 minutes might not seem like much, but it can allow you to get an additional boss down with world buffs where it otherwise wouldn't.
In those situations where you get stuck in a cave you should take resurrection sickness if your hearthstone is on cooldown. If it's available, you should have enough room to port out after resurrecting, maybe killing a single mob or so. Fighting your way out of the cave feels immersive and more like an RPG and less like an action game, where you have a plan of escape and clearing the area faster than normal can make your life easier on the way out.
Please show me the evidence that mounting times cost your hours of gameplay time over a reasonable span of time. Let's say 1 month of total playtime.
The above points aren't that big of a deal. Sure, I won't cry if you change them, but if they have the potential to influence the game just so you can cut out a few minutes of playing the game, then why change it at all? I'd rather savor my food than have it nuked and blended.
Now to tell you to please do your damn research. There is theorycrafting still being done for Vanilla and I'm in touch with the people who do it. Warrior and Rogue will always be the top DPS, but that's the way it goes for Vanilla and there are encounters (Huhu, Visc, Magmadar, Firemaw, Ragnaros, etc.) that will make a melee's life harder than the ranged's anyway, so at the end of the day it's understandable that they do more damage, in general, than the ranged. And if we were talking about a complete Vanilla experience, then the rumor is that 40 Rogues with Blazefury Medallion and caster gear is the optimal raid setup: there's a big, obvious reason why virtually no private server features this content, but hasn't done any direct "class balancing."
Hit aura for Moonkin does in fact screw over your best casters because any loot council worth their salt will account for the hit aura. Getting to spell hit cap requires raid gear (unless you're severely gimping your stats), and consequently the casters in the moonkin group will be reliant on that aura to get to hit cap: the casters not in the moonkin group will receive the other spell hit items. Therefore, if the moonkin is absent for one night, the best casters will have to change around items which will always result in either changing your gear around to get to hit cap and lowering your damage, or to change nothing and risk some resists. It might not sound like much, but if you get a resist and your hit aura isn't there, you know what's to blame. The only situation where this is avoided is if you have a massive surplus of caster gear that you can afford to have the best casters have spare spell hit gear, which you really can't rely on.
Starfire can crit for the exact same amount as a PoM Pyro, as Pyro only does marginally more damage than a fireball once the casters progress into AQ: all that damage is based on spellpower, and both Pyroblast, Fireball, and Starfire have the exact same scaling. Druids have the advantage as they're the most mobile class in most PvP situations.
Theorycrafting shows that Shadow Priest is actually worse than Moonkin: they take up debuff slots, do less overall damage than a Moonkin, and a priest can still spec into both healing and Shadow Weaving. The only reason they're not more ostracized than them is because the original Vanilla mindset included them for their debuff, and ever since they've been accepted. So why is it that the pursuit of optimization hasn't completely cut them out yet?
Ferals tanks are actually optimal if you're at the top of the hardcore roster. They can dish out more threat with MCP than even Thunderfury warriors. They compete even with dual wield Fury tanks on threat, and have far more survivability than them. The only reason every raid doesn't have a bear tank is because, in general, a warrior tank is better for progression due to the utility of being able to pop consumables without a second of vulnerability, Shield Wall, Force Reactive Disk, Thunderfury, Sunders, and more. But if you're threat-capped or want to push your parses higher? Get a bear tank.
Nightfall being optimal for rets would be a bigger deal if it damage caused by Nightfall showed up on the meters, then their contributions wouldn't "suck in all other aspects."
I like playing Moonkin over Mage or Warlock as I have to manage my mana and mana consumables, have my rotation change slightly as my crit improves, utility in Rebirth and emergency healing, a better PvP experience, the aura to make the best even better, and the necessity to always play my best and never slack off. I think a lot of people who play non-optimal specs have a similar mindset.
Here's some logs to show just how viable DPS Druids can be: Pre-AQ, BWL geared, top guilds.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=13030551
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=07032434
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=06030009
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=13043605
Those are with very good players that achieved server-record parses in that time. I believe the MC run showcased in those parses was the fastest in NA when it was achieved, so you can't say these are bad players or that they're badly geared.
If I had AQ Gear and even Naxx gear, I easily would have passed 800 DPS: I was close even in BWL gear. Not sure where you got those Moonkin figures from.
Here's the feral logs. Again, pre-AQ gear.
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/ ... 4555&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/ ... 4555&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/ ... 4555&exp=0
If you want to talk about "they're much worse than the optimal classes in tier 3" then I'll just say that by the time most of the raid's in full tier 3, then you've already beaten Vanilla. You don't need to worry about easing progression at that point: Vanilla's just a sandbox for you to play in with your decked out character. You can take a raid that's half Retribution Pally in total BiS gear and still be able to clear Naxx, provided the raid is skilled enough. Same for Moonkin.
And lastly, even if Shadow Priest is worse than Moonkin, it doesn't mean I'm not going to welcome a Shadow Priest into the raid. Raids have been cleared with 20 people in Vanilla; even if that Shadow Priest was literally doing nothing, it doesn't mean we will never progress. Vanilla raids are very simple and quite easy, and the "min-max or die" mentality of ages past is a complete misconception. There's a reason a casual server like this can exist and survive, but there's also a reason why its population will be hard-pressed to grow. And changes to class balance will only harm the people who deeply care for the experience and will drive people forward: very few people will care to theorycraft or improve on an experience only available to a very small circle.
So I ask again, if I wanted something that's balanced and fixed, why would I not seek out a different server? There's plenty with custom changes to gameplay and such, with higher populations and more interesting things too. I even heard there's this one server that you pay to play, and it has an actual paid dev team working on it too that continually adds new content and continually tries to fix, balance, and improve things. Out of all of those options, if I wanted the most patched, balanced, and fixed experience, wouldn't the odds of getting it be best on that server?
Don't increase reagent size, as it makes bag space and bank space less valuable. Why would anybody create a reagent bag for their bank if regular bags were sufficient?
Committing to a specialization is important. You can hybridize between specs in vanilla and still perform well in both areas; lowering respec removes this aspect of the game that allows you to make a personalized spec. It's not the most optimal, but again, you never need to be completely optimal in 100% of Vanilla content. I do agree with lowering respec costs where the majority of the playerbase has the min-max mindset for pvp, farming, and pve, but in Turtle WoW I don't see how these will be necessary.
Lowering mana costs of buffs lessens the effect of Purge in PvP, as you can reapply the buffs for very little mana.
Increasing flight speed increases the power of world buffs. If you spend 10 minutes flying to Felwood for Songflower buff (after getting DM buffs) and then flying to MC/BWL, but lessen that travel time to 2-5 minutes, you can have the world buff last for much longer. 5 minutes might not seem like much, but it can allow you to get an additional boss down with world buffs where it otherwise wouldn't.
In those situations where you get stuck in a cave you should take resurrection sickness if your hearthstone is on cooldown. If it's available, you should have enough room to port out after resurrecting, maybe killing a single mob or so. Fighting your way out of the cave feels immersive and more like an RPG and less like an action game, where you have a plan of escape and clearing the area faster than normal can make your life easier on the way out.
Please show me the evidence that mounting times cost your hours of gameplay time over a reasonable span of time. Let's say 1 month of total playtime.
The above points aren't that big of a deal. Sure, I won't cry if you change them, but if they have the potential to influence the game just so you can cut out a few minutes of playing the game, then why change it at all? I'd rather savor my food than have it nuked and blended.
Now to tell you to please do your damn research. There is theorycrafting still being done for Vanilla and I'm in touch with the people who do it. Warrior and Rogue will always be the top DPS, but that's the way it goes for Vanilla and there are encounters (Huhu, Visc, Magmadar, Firemaw, Ragnaros, etc.) that will make a melee's life harder than the ranged's anyway, so at the end of the day it's understandable that they do more damage, in general, than the ranged. And if we were talking about a complete Vanilla experience, then the rumor is that 40 Rogues with Blazefury Medallion and caster gear is the optimal raid setup: there's a big, obvious reason why virtually no private server features this content, but hasn't done any direct "class balancing."
Hit aura for Moonkin does in fact screw over your best casters because any loot council worth their salt will account for the hit aura. Getting to spell hit cap requires raid gear (unless you're severely gimping your stats), and consequently the casters in the moonkin group will be reliant on that aura to get to hit cap: the casters not in the moonkin group will receive the other spell hit items. Therefore, if the moonkin is absent for one night, the best casters will have to change around items which will always result in either changing your gear around to get to hit cap and lowering your damage, or to change nothing and risk some resists. It might not sound like much, but if you get a resist and your hit aura isn't there, you know what's to blame. The only situation where this is avoided is if you have a massive surplus of caster gear that you can afford to have the best casters have spare spell hit gear, which you really can't rely on.
Starfire can crit for the exact same amount as a PoM Pyro, as Pyro only does marginally more damage than a fireball once the casters progress into AQ: all that damage is based on spellpower, and both Pyroblast, Fireball, and Starfire have the exact same scaling. Druids have the advantage as they're the most mobile class in most PvP situations.
Theorycrafting shows that Shadow Priest is actually worse than Moonkin: they take up debuff slots, do less overall damage than a Moonkin, and a priest can still spec into both healing and Shadow Weaving. The only reason they're not more ostracized than them is because the original Vanilla mindset included them for their debuff, and ever since they've been accepted. So why is it that the pursuit of optimization hasn't completely cut them out yet?
Ferals tanks are actually optimal if you're at the top of the hardcore roster. They can dish out more threat with MCP than even Thunderfury warriors. They compete even with dual wield Fury tanks on threat, and have far more survivability than them. The only reason every raid doesn't have a bear tank is because, in general, a warrior tank is better for progression due to the utility of being able to pop consumables without a second of vulnerability, Shield Wall, Force Reactive Disk, Thunderfury, Sunders, and more. But if you're threat-capped or want to push your parses higher? Get a bear tank.
Nightfall being optimal for rets would be a bigger deal if it damage caused by Nightfall showed up on the meters, then their contributions wouldn't "suck in all other aspects."
I like playing Moonkin over Mage or Warlock as I have to manage my mana and mana consumables, have my rotation change slightly as my crit improves, utility in Rebirth and emergency healing, a better PvP experience, the aura to make the best even better, and the necessity to always play my best and never slack off. I think a lot of people who play non-optimal specs have a similar mindset.
Here's some logs to show just how viable DPS Druids can be: Pre-AQ, BWL geared, top guilds.
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=13030551
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=07032434
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=06030009
http://realmplayers.com/RaidStats/Fight ... t=13043605
Those are with very good players that achieved server-record parses in that time. I believe the MC run showcased in those parses was the fastest in NA when it was achieved, so you can't say these are bad players or that they're badly geared.
If I had AQ Gear and even Naxx gear, I easily would have passed 800 DPS: I was close even in BWL gear. Not sure where you got those Moonkin figures from.
Here's the feral logs. Again, pre-AQ gear.
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/ ... 4555&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/ ... 4555&exp=0
https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Viewer/ ... 4555&exp=0
If you want to talk about "they're much worse than the optimal classes in tier 3" then I'll just say that by the time most of the raid's in full tier 3, then you've already beaten Vanilla. You don't need to worry about easing progression at that point: Vanilla's just a sandbox for you to play in with your decked out character. You can take a raid that's half Retribution Pally in total BiS gear and still be able to clear Naxx, provided the raid is skilled enough. Same for Moonkin.
And lastly, even if Shadow Priest is worse than Moonkin, it doesn't mean I'm not going to welcome a Shadow Priest into the raid. Raids have been cleared with 20 people in Vanilla; even if that Shadow Priest was literally doing nothing, it doesn't mean we will never progress. Vanilla raids are very simple and quite easy, and the "min-max or die" mentality of ages past is a complete misconception. There's a reason a casual server like this can exist and survive, but there's also a reason why its population will be hard-pressed to grow. And changes to class balance will only harm the people who deeply care for the experience and will drive people forward: very few people will care to theorycraft or improve on an experience only available to a very small circle.
So I ask again, if I wanted something that's balanced and fixed, why would I not seek out a different server? There's plenty with custom changes to gameplay and such, with higher populations and more interesting things too. I even heard there's this one server that you pay to play, and it has an actual paid dev team working on it too that continually adds new content and continually tries to fix, balance, and improve things. Out of all of those options, if I wanted the most patched, balanced, and fixed experience, wouldn't the odds of getting it be best on that server?
Premier Vanilla Moonkin
Re: QoL changes
I will pass, i do realize now why such a nice game as wow can have p servers with 200 people online at peak and be happy and a total community of maybe 15-20k active people when the original game had 1000 times more in each patch, even with so many people working on them.
I make 7 points, on the last 3 replies one is 100% about dps raiding. Wasn't my point at all because i said QoL changes like aura improvements, threat reduction etc so you can get into groups and raids easier. Feels like 90% of the post was ignored.
Second reply thinks you can experience how life was in vanilla on a 200pop peak server without QoL changes, hf on empty zones i guess, and suggests a wotlk server where you have more classes, different raid/dungeon difficulty and size, totally overhauled talents and spells instead of 2-3 changes, rdf for the most part, lower exp 1-60 and about 50 other changes (that make it the best expansion for most of the playerbase along with vanilla) but also totally different. Yes they also added reduced HS cd and may have fixed some item stacking issues present in vanilla and tbc, but other than that what i say and wotlk is worlds apart.
Last post is the same thing but for the last time, blizz making you hard farm gold to respec the whole time is not something you want to do in a pserver, you want full areas and dungeons or time to rp, so reduced respec costs, lower flight time paths etc should be no question. And if you dont get summoned at the raids,probably inside, with a lock but lose 20 minutes of your world buffs something is wrong. You 're stuck in a "get out of cave" situation that happens SO rarely in the 60 levels, especially one where get rez sickness and wasting 10 minutes of your life is a better option than just running out of it and doing anything else. You re suggesting a "waste 10 minutes of your life" or even "choose to die in a rp game" option is somehow good, which i strongly disagree but dont touch any positive sides of the change that i mentioned. I compare the chances this happens compared to when you used a mount and you want me to calculate you how much time you gain a month? seriously? Ok then when i level new profs i use my mount 2 times a minute running from node to node and when i quest about 1 time per 5 minutes. One is 180 seconds per hour played the other is 18 second saved. Your first 5 days played should be closer to the second so you save 36 minutes after that you should use it more if you re in town or gathering mats or grinding and less if you re just raiding. I am pretty sure in 10 days played 1 hour saved would be close to truth, Happy?
As for theorycrafting, yes it is dead. You see videos with raid comps and BiS items per patch from 2010 and 2018 and its 95%+ the same thing. Rotations haven't changed at all. Boss tactics the same. You all play one patch and there is no room to theorycraft except minor minmaxing, occasionally based at bugs some servers had. While you re on it ask them why you are wrong on the bear tank that can't remove fear, has worse debuffs than warrior, lower avoidance, worse itemization and 0 threat on chain dodges at single target enemies because of no parry and block mechanics. As for the links about you doing 50-80% of rogues/mages/warriors damage in 50-70 second fights, where you are 20th out of 24 dps in both boss and trash damage ahead of the sp and 2 probably undergeared mages that can't pull out 430 average dps, just being happy that you chain crit one fight and go from 50% of their dps to 60 is sad. Showing this logs with 8 rogues and 7 warriors all doing better than you, MUCH better, and with 2 druids coming for the motw buff, is sad. You think its ok, i say its getting hard carried. You want the truth about your spec, but can't see it at your logs because you refuse to?
and just google anything. Heck go to druid classic on discord and ask people there if we get carried at vanilla or not, they do it with passion and the answer to me was yes. They have most of the theorycrafters and because nothing changed in 1.12 in YEARS they make BiS lists for 1.8 and 1.9 that no one plays, go figure. You want to know what the answer was if i should go feral or balance in vanilla p servers after only doing it in retail? If the guild is progressive none, if its not and you dont mind doing HALF THE DPS with DOUBLE the effort and having LESS raid utility than every -i suppose not rogue- class then consider HEALING or a powershift cat to be just below middle of the pack because some players suck. That was in balance forums. Had to ask again to tell me how bad moonkin is, oh and yes don't level with it or pvp with it unless you got t3 or rank 11+ gear and just try to crit until someone notices you and kills you.
Anyway, won't post anymore. Hf.
I make 7 points, on the last 3 replies one is 100% about dps raiding. Wasn't my point at all because i said QoL changes like aura improvements, threat reduction etc so you can get into groups and raids easier. Feels like 90% of the post was ignored.
Second reply thinks you can experience how life was in vanilla on a 200pop peak server without QoL changes, hf on empty zones i guess, and suggests a wotlk server where you have more classes, different raid/dungeon difficulty and size, totally overhauled talents and spells instead of 2-3 changes, rdf for the most part, lower exp 1-60 and about 50 other changes (that make it the best expansion for most of the playerbase along with vanilla) but also totally different. Yes they also added reduced HS cd and may have fixed some item stacking issues present in vanilla and tbc, but other than that what i say and wotlk is worlds apart.
Last post is the same thing but for the last time, blizz making you hard farm gold to respec the whole time is not something you want to do in a pserver, you want full areas and dungeons or time to rp, so reduced respec costs, lower flight time paths etc should be no question. And if you dont get summoned at the raids,probably inside, with a lock but lose 20 minutes of your world buffs something is wrong. You 're stuck in a "get out of cave" situation that happens SO rarely in the 60 levels, especially one where get rez sickness and wasting 10 minutes of your life is a better option than just running out of it and doing anything else. You re suggesting a "waste 10 minutes of your life" or even "choose to die in a rp game" option is somehow good, which i strongly disagree but dont touch any positive sides of the change that i mentioned. I compare the chances this happens compared to when you used a mount and you want me to calculate you how much time you gain a month? seriously? Ok then when i level new profs i use my mount 2 times a minute running from node to node and when i quest about 1 time per 5 minutes. One is 180 seconds per hour played the other is 18 second saved. Your first 5 days played should be closer to the second so you save 36 minutes after that you should use it more if you re in town or gathering mats or grinding and less if you re just raiding. I am pretty sure in 10 days played 1 hour saved would be close to truth, Happy?
As for theorycrafting, yes it is dead. You see videos with raid comps and BiS items per patch from 2010 and 2018 and its 95%+ the same thing. Rotations haven't changed at all. Boss tactics the same. You all play one patch and there is no room to theorycraft except minor minmaxing, occasionally based at bugs some servers had. While you re on it ask them why you are wrong on the bear tank that can't remove fear, has worse debuffs than warrior, lower avoidance, worse itemization and 0 threat on chain dodges at single target enemies because of no parry and block mechanics. As for the links about you doing 50-80% of rogues/mages/warriors damage in 50-70 second fights, where you are 20th out of 24 dps in both boss and trash damage ahead of the sp and 2 probably undergeared mages that can't pull out 430 average dps, just being happy that you chain crit one fight and go from 50% of their dps to 60 is sad. Showing this logs with 8 rogues and 7 warriors all doing better than you, MUCH better, and with 2 druids coming for the motw buff, is sad. You think its ok, i say its getting hard carried. You want the truth about your spec, but can't see it at your logs because you refuse to?
and just google anything. Heck go to druid classic on discord and ask people there if we get carried at vanilla or not, they do it with passion and the answer to me was yes. They have most of the theorycrafters and because nothing changed in 1.12 in YEARS they make BiS lists for 1.8 and 1.9 that no one plays, go figure. You want to know what the answer was if i should go feral or balance in vanilla p servers after only doing it in retail? If the guild is progressive none, if its not and you dont mind doing HALF THE DPS with DOUBLE the effort and having LESS raid utility than every -i suppose not rogue- class then consider HEALING or a powershift cat to be just below middle of the pack because some players suck. That was in balance forums. Had to ask again to tell me how bad moonkin is, oh and yes don't level with it or pvp with it unless you got t3 or rank 11+ gear and just try to crit until someone notices you and kills you.
Anyway, won't post anymore. Hf.
Re: QoL changes
Imo you have to take the core function of this server into account:
- It was made to experience the *questing* experience to the fullest. This means a 0.5x xp rate has been implemented. This has repercussions for traveling, which results in a difference with the original vanilla wow. 0.5xp rate leads to a lot more traveling around to finish quests in zone, move back, finish quests in other zones repeat ad infinitum.
Also, normally you can see a 'LFM <dungeon>' popup every minute on crowded servers. If you need that dungeon and you're not at the other side of the world, you can easily join. Now? If the one group that goes into SM the entire day starts forming, chance is good you're at the other side of the world. Which means.... traveling... again.
Traveling sucks. Period.
The rules on this server wants to you to 'extra' quest (preferably with other people, which adds to the fun). I am positively sure the devs did not make this server to add so much /played to running and flying around all the time.
Increasing flight speed & decreasing HS timer to 30m or 45m therefore is a perfectly viable solution to a problem perceived by a number of players on this server (me for example and apparently TS).
I can see where Talespinner is coming from, but there is already a huge balance breaking change compared to the original Wow: 0.5xp rates. Offsetting this while not impacting the reason for this change (quest! quest! quest!) would be a welcome change.
Just like cheap respecs would (helps add to the community, since there is a lack of healers...hybrids can now respec to solo, tank, heal, whatever the community needs).
As for the other QoL changes. I don't think they're very necessary at the moment. Sure, if it was me, I also would have shortened various casts that do not impact gameplay (food comes to mind), because they do not add to immersion, nor to the community nor to the perceived fun factor. Turtle wow is about having slowpaced fun. There are a lot of QoL changes that add to fun and not break balance/community that will make this server more fun yet retains it vanilla vibe.
For example, due to low pop, I would place an extra auctioneer in most zones around the world and lower the AH fee. The AH is dead (also because one half of the player base is in the same guild sharing stuff). How to make it more alive? Increased accessibility.
And lastly. What will be the lifetime of this server? When Classic hits, the majority here (my assumption, dont kill me) will leave for an RP PvE server there. What do we want to get out of our stay here? What helps increase the fun while being here?
- It was made to experience the *questing* experience to the fullest. This means a 0.5x xp rate has been implemented. This has repercussions for traveling, which results in a difference with the original vanilla wow. 0.5xp rate leads to a lot more traveling around to finish quests in zone, move back, finish quests in other zones repeat ad infinitum.
Also, normally you can see a 'LFM <dungeon>' popup every minute on crowded servers. If you need that dungeon and you're not at the other side of the world, you can easily join. Now? If the one group that goes into SM the entire day starts forming, chance is good you're at the other side of the world. Which means.... traveling... again.
Traveling sucks. Period.
The rules on this server wants to you to 'extra' quest (preferably with other people, which adds to the fun). I am positively sure the devs did not make this server to add so much /played to running and flying around all the time.
Increasing flight speed & decreasing HS timer to 30m or 45m therefore is a perfectly viable solution to a problem perceived by a number of players on this server (me for example and apparently TS).
I can see where Talespinner is coming from, but there is already a huge balance breaking change compared to the original Wow: 0.5xp rates. Offsetting this while not impacting the reason for this change (quest! quest! quest!) would be a welcome change.
Just like cheap respecs would (helps add to the community, since there is a lack of healers...hybrids can now respec to solo, tank, heal, whatever the community needs).
As for the other QoL changes. I don't think they're very necessary at the moment. Sure, if it was me, I also would have shortened various casts that do not impact gameplay (food comes to mind), because they do not add to immersion, nor to the community nor to the perceived fun factor. Turtle wow is about having slowpaced fun. There are a lot of QoL changes that add to fun and not break balance/community that will make this server more fun yet retains it vanilla vibe.
For example, due to low pop, I would place an extra auctioneer in most zones around the world and lower the AH fee. The AH is dead (also because one half of the player base is in the same guild sharing stuff). How to make it more alive? Increased accessibility.
And lastly. What will be the lifetime of this server? When Classic hits, the majority here (my assumption, dont kill me) will leave for an RP PvE server there. What do we want to get out of our stay here? What helps increase the fun while being here?
[Pickles, lvl 60 Tauren druid]
Re: QoL changes
So right off the bat I have to give props to OP for well reasoned suggestions and for his intention to retain his feel of Vanilla matching the goal of the server.
Also love that the responses were equally well reasoned and thorough.
My gripes are as follows.
OP is using the term "Quality of Life" in an objectively incorrect context.
I realize this term is widely misused, but we should be clear here. I believe the OP is smart enough to realize this, which leaves only bad faith or going along with the crowd...
The term Quality of Life is only necessary in order to distinguish a change from a core gameplay change! So using the term like this is like saying, "I literally just shat myself," when one merely sharted.
An example of a Quality of Life change would be adjusting the positions of HP bars in the field when huge crowds of mobs are near to be more coherent. Another example would be adding a destroy confirmation dialogue box.
The OP casting his recommended sweeping changes to core gameplay mechanics as mere QoL is, charitably, misguided. Less charitably, raw propaganda and a framing tactic.
Moving on to specific claims, we have OP attempting to argue at the level of the fifteen year olds on the Classic forum who've played only Overwatch their entire lives; "On the first post that was serious and not 'i like to afk when i fly so don't fix this for everyone because i want to afk and fly and not find myself at the flight master.'"
However, OP has tipped his hand; his arguments are too sharp for any to believe he is that ignorant of the nature of immersion.
And even if said poster's point were only about wanting to afk, we still have a direct conflict between that and OP's clear XP/hour maximization preference; directly in conflict with the server's philosophy.
On a final note, Pigglebee's claim that the server's reduced mob xp rate is aimed toward incentivizing questing... Is that correct? Ive only read the intro, didnt watch the videos yet.
I had assumed it was to slow down leveling and encourage grind groups...
Edit; nm found it
Also love that the responses were equally well reasoned and thorough.
My gripes are as follows.
OP is using the term "Quality of Life" in an objectively incorrect context.
I realize this term is widely misused, but we should be clear here. I believe the OP is smart enough to realize this, which leaves only bad faith or going along with the crowd...
The term Quality of Life is only necessary in order to distinguish a change from a core gameplay change! So using the term like this is like saying, "I literally just shat myself," when one merely sharted.
An example of a Quality of Life change would be adjusting the positions of HP bars in the field when huge crowds of mobs are near to be more coherent. Another example would be adding a destroy confirmation dialogue box.
The OP casting his recommended sweeping changes to core gameplay mechanics as mere QoL is, charitably, misguided. Less charitably, raw propaganda and a framing tactic.
Moving on to specific claims, we have OP attempting to argue at the level of the fifteen year olds on the Classic forum who've played only Overwatch their entire lives; "On the first post that was serious and not 'i like to afk when i fly so don't fix this for everyone because i want to afk and fly and not find myself at the flight master.'"
However, OP has tipped his hand; his arguments are too sharp for any to believe he is that ignorant of the nature of immersion.
And even if said poster's point were only about wanting to afk, we still have a direct conflict between that and OP's clear XP/hour maximization preference; directly in conflict with the server's philosophy.
On a final note, Pigglebee's claim that the server's reduced mob xp rate is aimed toward incentivizing questing... Is that correct? Ive only read the intro, didnt watch the videos yet.
I had assumed it was to slow down leveling and encourage grind groups...
Edit; nm found it
-
Potatoknight
- Posts: 16
Re: QoL changes
My responses shall be from the perspective of a roleplayer primarily, but I also play the game!
Might have implications for things like Devilsaur mafia, would just encourage that sort of behavior. The stack size is what it is for a reason.
Your spec is part of your character identity. If I had my way there would be no respeccing, ever, or at least with a long cooldown on it to emulate retraining!
Lowering cast times for utility spells is fine with me. Lowering cast time of mounts has PvP implications. Ressurection spells also. If this is put into effect, very thoughtful consideration must be given into its impact on PvP.
Longer buff time is fine with me. Lowering mana cost has PvP implications.
Not possible given netcode etc. The gryphons fly pretty much as fast as they can, any faster and you'd desync with the server and crash.
I am not at all sure what you meant by this!Ethismos wrote: ↑Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:15 pm6) Any class balance (unless you 're ok with 15 warriors and 1 druid online like it is now for the rest of the game, i ll be selling my motw). Even QoL buffs like aura effect increases etc to get us in groups or mana cost reductions to make leveling/itemization less of a hell.
Nah, encourages people to mill around hubs more, I'd rather people are out in the world, even if they're simply running back to their hub.