progress endgame through dungeons

[Caos]

I kinda like 5 man dungeons way more than big raids and many players may feel the same.
My suggestion is adding more high level dungeons with similar item power than raids. The best way would probably be use all leveling dungeons and scale the mobs and item drops to level 60. Each dungeon progresively harder and with better reward. Ragefire Chasm buffed would be a little better and harder than Black Morass, then Wailling Caverns and Stockades and so on.
About the lore, when you enter the dungeon it could be corrupted or something with some item and make the monsters stronger. The items droped in the dungeon could just be the same with corrupted or whatever in the name.

Reasons raids are less fun:
- Takes longer to form a group.
- Way more people means way less impact for each player. Doesn't affect much overall that you do more dps.
- Dungeons are way more sociable and you decide more what to do, raids are just one guy telling instructions on discord.

[Rfelleto]

I understand your line o thought but if you want better gear go raid. If not, don't expect to get better gear.

The game is vanilla and it is developed around big raids as the end game content. If you want dungeons with raid rewards or better retail is your go to game not vanilla.

[Akos1896]

You'd enjoy retail more. You basically wanna heroic+mythic dungeons

[Templar85]

Someway in some shape or form need Heroic dungeons which will give challenge to a full BiS geared players. There are many on the server. I would say 15-30% of the population in this category. Know so many BiS players who left the server because there was no other challenges to conquer anymore.

The solution to just increase the stamina and damage of the mobs in Ragefire Chasm is just lazy and unfun. Rewards shouldn't be better that can get from raid also. They can be tokens transmog Items, mounts, titles, gadgets, companions, high level gems, high level pots. There can be a token exchange npc somewhere.

[Ishilu]

You'd enjoy retail more. You basically wanna heroic+mythic dungeons

I've tried retail, there's nothing to enjoy there.

The problem with retail is all the QoL stuff they've replaced the actual fun with. Some people like vanilla 5-mans because they are nonlinear, sometimes quite long, sometimes hard to reach and (when the group is not overpowered) even require a minimum of skill and coordination. BRD and Maraudon are gems which are unequaled by any 5-mans I've seen in later expansions, except for the polygon count. Also note that leveling 5-mans can be challenging and fun as long as the group setup is not overpowered (i.e. as long as at least some mobs are still red and people don't bring a lvl60 to blow everything way before it can become a threat.).

And let's face it: 5-man gameplay differs from raiding gameplay. While there's a huge and vocal community that often likes to claim that leveling and 5-mans are something to get over with as quickly as possible before finally getting to "the good stuff", there are people who prefer the smaller-scale gameplay that comes before "the endgame" and giving these people some candy instead of yet another 40-man raid that they don't care about sounds good to me.

[Caos]

The suggestion of buffing low levels dungeons is just to be able to make a lot of new content with little dev work, it would be better to create new dungeons from scratch of couse.
Maybe some low level dungeons like Ragefire Chasm are too easy (in terms of mechanics) but there are others like Wailing Caverns that are a pain in the ass and with the appropiate numbers could be fun to do at level 60 too.
I don't think that having to do raids to get better gear is such an important vanilla feature, also this is vanilla+ it is suposed to improve shortcomings of vanilla, it can change some vanilla features to acomplish that.

[Xudo]

The problem of "progress" is that people often tend to skip it.
For example people go naxx thrash to get good weapons and might skip all previous ones.
Who want to spend tons of time to get every dagger in the game, if you can go short path and get BiS one from the start?

[Akos1896]

On paper I'm really a sidegrade > upgrade guy. Let's say power only scales up to T2 but you have much more option for each tier. Would also make PVP more fair.
But the more I think about it, the more I think that real sidegrades don't exist. People will do testings and will select a combination of items as the best for a specific class. So you'd only get an optimal T1/T2 and many inferior choices. I don't know if it can be balanced. If yes, sidegrading would be very cool here - instead of a T4 guy one-manning BRD and the game losing realism/immersion, just having the same item tiers with new raids but with different uses/build ideas.

[Ishilu]

On paper I'm really a sidegrade > upgrade guy. Let's say power only scales up to T2 but you have much more option for each tier. Would also make PVP more fair.
But the more I think about it, the more I think that real sidegrades don't exist. People will do testings and will select a combination of items as the best for a specific class. So you'd only get an optimal T1/T2 and many inferior choices. I don't know if it can be balanced. If yes, sidegrading would be very cool here - instead of a T4 guy one-manning BRD and the game losing realism/immersion, just having the same item tiers with new raids but with different uses/build ideas.

Fully agree with you here. Minmaxers will always be part of the problem. If transmogs were not a thing, I'd recommend making the BIS configurations really, really ugly .

However, imagine the announced alternative sets (see viewtopic.php?t=10913) dropping exclusively in different raids and dungeons than the originals and maybe changing the loot tables just a little so that only a part of the original tier sets would drop in traditional raids and some stuff would be moved to new content, while new items would be added to the old loot tables. At least force minmaxers to stick not only to a part of the content.