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Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 5:02 am
by Dracarusggotham
Personally I quite like Outland made by Blizzard in TBC, and I think that it was quite wasted and that the Alliance outside of the remains of the Expedition did not have much to do with what happened there.
First, the two most relevant races at the lore level in the expansion were from the Horde, the Blood Elves and the Mag'har Orcs, you literally missed a lot of interesting plot if you were not from the Horde, practically the entire journey of the Blood Elves was unknown to those who did not play in the Horde during the expansion.
Next, the Draenei, I think they were quite irrelevant at the lore level, since, I return to the same point, everything interesting happened to the Blood Elves, the rest I think no one cared, in case the Draenei are not enough relevant to the Alliance and it was not until Legion that they had their most developed lore.
I think Blizzard wasted a lot of Outland and disdained the Alliance a lot at the lore level since TBC, literally everything revolved around the Horde and it wasn't until MoP that players complained that the Horde had practically the focus in all the expansions that began to give the Alliance a little more lore.
It wouldn't be a bad idea for Turtle to reuse the Outland map and give it some changes to make it consistent with what was said in Warcraft III, it's just a personal opinion, I really like TBC's Outland, what I didn't like was the lore.
I know we're still a long way from Outland on Turtle, but I'd like to hear from you guys about the mapping of Outland in TBC and what you hope to see on Turtle when it's time to go Beyond the Dark Portal.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 1:15 pm
by Dracarusggotham
Oh yes, and let's not talk about Quel'thalas and Silvermoon, which being the most anticipated city when Classic came out, today is very abandoned, not even a sad revamp has been done to unite it with the world of Azeroth as such and no longer require of that sad portal at its gates.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 4:18 pm
by Ishilu
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 5:02 am
First, the two most relevant races at the lore level in the expansion were from the Horde, the Blood Elves and the Mag'har Orcs
I think they added Mag'Har in retail at some point as a straight backed orc alternative, but you're right, Magh'har questgivers were available for horde, only. However, Blood elves were never in the horde and will never be.That's just ridiculous. What's next? A Star Wars prequel with poop jokes made for 6-year old kids? Indiana Jones 4? With Aliens?
Anyway, the team seems to use some TBC areas already, just take a look at hatefogre quarry, so I don't see why they should not use the original outland as a starting point for their work.
Tempest keep aside, I can't think of any areas in the original game that can not be reached without a flying mount (not sure about Skettis) and these places could be made accessible with flightpaths or teleports, similar to Xylems tower in Azshara. Therefore it wouldn't be a problem to leave flying mounts out of the game. There are also many true horde and alliance outposts and places like falcon watch could still be repurposed for some new neutral faction or some good oldfashioned elf slaying.
Speaking of lore, I normally use a macro for the City of Light quest, feel free to use it, if you find your way to a TBC server:
/train
One reason why I really liked TBC was that they dared to move away from the classic LotR fantasy hype back in the day. I loved the movies and I'm not saying that BRD and Ironforge were not well-made, but were they really innovative? Moria in LotR was cool, the torch room is Moria 2.0.. In contrast, even the more nomal-looking areas in outland have chasms leading into space (spaaaaace!) and flying rocks! The opinion mught be unpopular, especially from a horde player, but the Exodar was simply cool in its strangeness. But that's just my personal taste.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 2:45 am
by Ninjerk
TBC instances were rushed garbage and they took way too much writing inspiration from Family Guy.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 3:41 am
by Ishilu
Ninjerk wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:45 am
TBC instances were rushed [...]
Yeah, they definitely pandered to the "gnomeregan-sucks-because-asmongold-whined-about-getting-lost-there-on-the-internet" crowd by making TBC dungeons much more linear than in vanilla, but then I wouldn't call SM arms or Stockades particularly interesting from the gameplay perspective, either.
I feel like the difficulty tuning in TBC was better than in vanilla and most (all?) bosses had some simple mechanic that made the fights a bit more interestiing than simple tank'n spank. TBC heroics were great, especially when the group wasn't overgeared yet.
Still, how the people who came up with a randomized leveldesign in Diablo ended up creating pipe shaped dungeons with static boss loot tables is beyond me. Guess it had something to do with money...
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 4:00 am
by Ninjerk
Ishilu wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 3:41 am
Ninjerk wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:45 am
TBC instances were rushed [...]
Yeah, they definitely pandered to the "gnomeregan-sucks-because-asmongold-whined-about-getting-lost-there-on-the-internet" crowd by making TBC dungeons much more linear than in vanilla, but then I wouldn't call SM arms or Stockades particularly interesting from the gameplay perspective, either.
I feel like the difficulty tuning in TBC was better than in vanilla and most (all?) bosses had some simple mechanic that made the fights a bit more interestiing than simple tank'n spank. TBC heroics were great, especially when the group wasn't overgeared yet.
Still, how the people who came up with a randomized leveldesign in Diablo ended up creating pipe shaped dungeons with static boss loot tables is beyond me. Guess it had something to do with money...
TBC was massively rushed to cash in on WoW's exploding popularity. Thanks, J. Allen Brack.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 2:37 pm
by Dracarusggotham
Ishilu wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 4:18 pm
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 5:02 am
First, the two most relevant races at the lore level in the expansion were from the Horde, the Blood Elves and the Mag'har Orcs
I think they added Mag'Har in retail at some point as a straight backed orc alternative, but you're right, Magh'har questgivers were available for horde, only. However, Blood elves were never in the horde and will never be.That's just ridiculous. What's next? A Star Wars prequel with poop jokes made for 6-year old kids? Indiana Jones 4? With Aliens?
Anyway, the team seems to use some TBC areas already, just take a look at hatefogre quarry, so I don't see why they should not use the original outland as a starting point for their work.
Tempest keep aside, I can't think of any areas in the original game that can not be reached without a flying mount (not sure about Skettis) and these places could be made accessible with flightpaths or teleports, similar to Xylems tower in Azshara. Therefore it wouldn't be a problem to leave flying mounts out of the game. There are also many true horde and alliance outposts and places like falcon watch could still be repurposed for some new neutral faction or some good oldfashioned elf slaying.
Speaking of lore, I normally use a macro for the City of Light quest, feel free to use it, if you find your way to a TBC server:
/train
One reason why I really liked TBC was that they dared to move away from the classic LotR fantasy hype back in the day. I loved the movies and I'm not saying that BRD and Ironforge were not well-made, but were they really innovative? Moria in LotR was cool, the torch room is Moria 2.0.. In contrast, even the more nomal-looking areas in outland have chasms leading into space (spaaaaace!) and flying rocks! The opinion mught be unpopular, especially from a horde player, but the Exodar was simply cool in its strangeness. But that's just my personal taste.
My list of changes if they use the Outland of retail:
-Use the Horde Aligned Blood Elven buildings and change them to High Elven Buildings, basically only change the red for blue and we're ready.
-The Mag'har orcs can be the "Blood Elves" for the Horde, what I mean with that? Simple, the High Elves to outland looking for Kael'thas, and the Alliance helps them, the Horde takes the chance for go to outland looking for uncorrupted orcs, both factions gives exclusive missions to the Alliance and the Horde respectively.
-I liked the idea for a faction of Blood Elves who betrayed the Illidari, them can be lead by Kael'thas, I never liked the story that Blizzard gave to him, basically, he became bad cause potato.
-Flying mounts ruins all, so I don't like them, change them for some new thematic mounts based in demons or some fauna of Outland.
-Blizzard exagerated with the elite areas and with the amount of mobs in Outland, I guess cause the flying mounts make the travel easier, bad error.
-I guess Shatrath worked well, I like the crossfaction game in Turtle cause it feels like, "look, we are at war but that doesn't means we can't work together for a common objective", BUT, the Alliance and the Horde needs a capital there, maybe the Shattered Sun Fort for the Alliance and the Kor'kron Hideout for the Horde, something like that.
-Expeditions, I guess something like "Shattered Sun Expedition" for the Alliance, and the "Kor'kron Offensive" for the Horde.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 4:59 pm
by Galendor
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:37 pm
The Mag'har orcs can be the "Blood Elves" for the Horde, what I mean with that? Simple, the High Elves to outland looking for Kael'thas, and the Alliance helps them, the Horde takes the chance for go to outland looking for uncorrupted orcs, both factions gives exclusive missions to the Alliance and the Horde respectively.
There is no such thing as "mag'har orc" in Vanilla lore. The whole story of orcs being brown from the start was presented in TBC and, to be honest, didn't bring anything special to the game.
Sure, there is a donate skin with the similar name but it uses Rexxar Vanilla skin instead of TBC one.
Thus, I'd think twice before adding Mag'hars in Vanilla.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 5:23 pm
by Dracarusggotham
Galendor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:59 pm
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:37 pm
The Mag'har orcs can be the "Blood Elves" for the Horde, what I mean with that? Simple, the High Elves to outland looking for Kael'thas, and the Alliance helps them, the Horde takes the chance for go to outland looking for uncorrupted orcs, both factions gives exclusive missions to the Alliance and the Horde respectively.
There is no such thing as "mag'har orc" in Vanilla lore. The whole story of orcs being brown from the start was presented in TBC and, to be honest, didn't bring anything special to the game.
Sure, there is a donate skin with the similar name but it uses Rexxar Vanilla skin instead of TBC one.
Thus, I'd think twice before adding Mag'hars in Vanilla.
That's new for me, in that case...WHY THE HELL BLIZZARD ADDED THE FCKING BLOOD ELVES TO THE HORDE?
I mean, they basically steal something from the Alliance and gave them to the Horde cause potato...why ruin the lore and the Alliance at that level? they basically said..."Uh? the Alliance? To the hell with them! give all the my Hordies" I feel all like that, everything was for the Horde.
Everyday TBC gets worse for me.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 5:52 pm
by Redmoon
I really like Outland as well but it’s more Sci-Fi fantasy elements feel really out of place in a classic setting tbh
Would rather the subject be “the last thing” turtle attempts to innovate on
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 5:53 pm
by Redmoon
I really like Outland as well but it’s more Sci-Fi fantasy elements feel really out of place in a classic setting tbh
Would rather the subject be “the last thing” turtle attempts to innovate on compared to bread and butter EK / KALI stuff
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 5:55 pm
by Inovatu
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 5:23 pm
Galendor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:59 pm
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:37 pm
The Mag'har orcs can be the "Blood Elves" for the Horde, what I mean with that? Simple, the High Elves to outland looking for Kael'thas, and the Alliance helps them, the Horde takes the chance for go to outland looking for uncorrupted orcs, both factions gives exclusive missions to the Alliance and the Horde respectively.
There is no such thing as "mag'har orc" in Vanilla lore. The whole story of orcs being brown from the start was presented in TBC and, to be honest, didn't bring anything special to the game.
Sure, there is a donate skin with the similar name but it uses Rexxar Vanilla skin instead of TBC one.
Thus, I'd think twice before adding Mag'hars in Vanilla.
That's new for me, in that case...WHY THE HELL BLIZZARD ADDED THE FCKING BLOOD ELVES TO THE HORDE?
I mean, they basically steal something from the Alliance and gave them to the Horde cause potato...why ruin the lore and the Alliance at that level? they basically said..."Uh? the Alliance? To the hell with them! give all the my Hordies" I feel all like that, everything was for the Horde.
Everyday TBC gets worse for me.
Because Horde needed some Boobs
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 9:12 am
by Calli
What is the point of this topic anyway? Have you seen the dev road map?
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 12:54 pm
by Dracarusggotham
Calli wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 9:12 am
What is the point of this topic anyway? Have you seen the dev road map?
Well, talk about my opinion of retail outland and what I'm expecting in the future Outland of Turtle WoW.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 2:13 pm
by Deso5618
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 5:23 pm
Galendor wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 4:59 pm
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 2:37 pm
The Mag'har orcs can be the "Blood Elves" for the Horde, what I mean with that? Simple, the High Elves to outland looking for Kael'thas, and the Alliance helps them, the Horde takes the chance for go to outland looking for uncorrupted orcs, both factions gives exclusive missions to the Alliance and the Horde respectively.
There is no such thing as "mag'har orc" in Vanilla lore. The whole story of orcs being brown from the start was presented in TBC and, to be honest, didn't bring anything special to the game.
Sure, there is a donate skin with the similar name but it uses Rexxar Vanilla skin instead of TBC one.
Thus, I'd think twice before adding Mag'hars in Vanilla.
That's new for me, in that case...WHY THE HELL BLIZZARD ADDED THE FCKING BLOOD ELVES TO THE HORDE?
I mean, they basically steal something from the Alliance and gave them to the Horde cause potato...why ruin the lore and the Alliance at that level? they basically said..."Uh? the Alliance? To the hell with them! give all the my Hordies" I feel all like that, everything was for the Horde.
Everyday TBC gets worse for me.
But that dosen't mean, Mag'Hars shouldn't exist. Maybe diffrent implemetation on TWoW them, I also don't liked idea, of blood elf paladins in horde because this ruined the lore.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 5:04 pm
by Calli
Are Khadgar, Turalyon, and the windrunner girl Alleria? at outland currently by the lore? Where is also Illidan now? We know they crossed the portal and destroyed the way back. That means until someone opens it again it remain closed. There is a quest at highelf starter zone where kaelthas appears in image as his servant talks to him, I wonder where he is at, also at outland?
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 5:18 pm
by Deso5618
Calli wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:04 pm
Are Khadgar, Turalyon, and the windrunner girl Alleria? at outland currently by the lore? Where is also Illidan now? We know they crossed the portal and destroyed the way back. That means until someone opens it again it remain closed. There is a quest at highelf starter zone where kaelthas appears in image as his servant talks to him, I wonder where he is at, also at outland?
If TWoW follows lore of Warcraft 3. My guess is Illidan is in Outland, while whereabouts of Khadgar, Turalyon, Alleria and Kudran are unknown.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 6:29 pm
by Dracarusggotham
Deso5618 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:18 pm
Calli wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:04 pm
Are Khadgar, Turalyon, and the windrunner girl Alleria? at outland currently by the lore? Where is also Illidan now? We know they crossed the portal and destroyed the way back. That means until someone opens it again it remain closed. There is a quest at highelf starter zone where kaelthas appears in image as his servant talks to him, I wonder where he is at, also at outland?
If TWoW follows lore of Warcraft 3. My guess is Illidan is in Outland, while whereabouts of Khadgar, Turalyon, Alleria and Kudran are unknown.
As I can remember, Alleria, Turalyon, Khadgar and Kurdran are in Outland for sure, IDK if them are in other planet or dimension.
Re: Personal opinion about Outland
Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 10:30 am
by Deso5618
Dracarusggotham wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:29 pm
Deso5618 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:18 pm
Calli wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 5:04 pm
Are Khadgar, Turalyon, and the windrunner girl Alleria? at outland currently by the lore? Where is also Illidan now? We know they crossed the portal and destroyed the way back. That means until someone opens it again it remain closed. There is a quest at highelf starter zone where kaelthas appears in image as his servant talks to him, I wonder where he is at, also at outland?
If TWoW follows lore of Warcraft 3. My guess is Illidan is in Outland, while whereabouts of Khadgar, Turalyon, Alleria and Kudran are unknown.
As I can remember, Alleria, Turalyon, Khadgar and Kurdran are in Outland for sure, IDK if them are in other planet or dimension.
That's possibilities, they can be seperated on diffrent places of Outland, looking for each other. Depends how TWoW devs will make it. But Illidan for sure probably sits on BT, lamenting about Tyrande.