Turtle WoW

Greetings!

With our patch 1.17.2 on the horizon (and a release date within the next couple months), there's a great deal of speculation regarding class changes, weapon skill, and various other balance-related topics and how they will be impacted by our upcoming changes and new post-naxxramas content. Today, we would like to share some clarifying information regarding the direction being taken in class balance and design, while avoiding specific numbers.

Weapon Skill

Weapon skill is not being removed. The system belongs in an RPG game such as World of Warcraft, and thus, we have no intentions of scrapping the system. However, another crucial part of an RPG game is being able to create the character you want to play, without outside reasons such as the meta determining their race and class—a racial weapon skill bonus shouldn't prevent someone from making a Gnome warrior—only good taste should.

To achieve this, while still maintaining the classical RPG elements of different races having various specialties and weaknesses, we will be doing a few things:

• Racial Weapon Skill Bonuses will be nerfed, while not entirely removed.

• Linearizing Weapon Skill vs Defense Skill to make the breakpoints much more clear.

• Adding +5 skill bonus rewards from various sources.

Class Changes

Next, we would like to provide further information on our philosophy for class changes and the direction being taken in our design, as well as information regarding what is being done, what to expect, and what not to expect. Our team is hosting multiple meetings weekly to discuss the proposed ideas and changes from the chosen class changes council (group of veteran players, not developers), and refining those ideas into finalized changes.

Our philosophy has always been focusing on enhancing and polishing the existing identity of classes and specializations, rather than reworking or replacing them entirely. As fun as some more wacky concepts may be, we want to keep true to the identity of vanilla classes. This means smaller and less drastic changes overall, which should culminate in a healthy meta allowing each class and specialization to shine in their own way.

However, changes which may seem larger are not entirely out of the equation. The following are two larger-impact changes which will be coming with Class Changes 2 in 1.17.2:

• Rogues will gain the ability to use One-Handed Axes.

• Throwing Weapons will now be repairable rather than needing restocked similar to ammo.

Closing Remarks

We hope that this post provides some clarity to the direction we are taking in our design for 1.17.2 and onward. We look forward to sharing more details as the patch's release comes closer, and seeing all the community's experimentation with these changes.

Rogue Axe gang rise up!

Feral barkskin when? Swipe scale with attack power? Maybe hit up to 5 targets? Shapeshifted druids benefit from windfury when?!

Pls kthx.

Let's go with all the dev blogs, how much time you spect to pass until the release.
I'm expecting it in July/Aug.

Based and Skadi-pilled

Will these changes come with a return to race/faction changes? Would be a shame for people that made humans for the meta to be stuck after weapon skill changes and new players get more choice.

I hope Arcane Mage gets a good update and can playing in the endgame.

Akalix wrote: ↑

Tue May 07, 2024 8:58 pm

• Adding +5 skill bonus rewards from various sources.

Little question about what various sources entails. Does this mean we are going to get skill books similar to the bow skill currently in the game? Or will we just get more options that provide weapon skill through itemization?

Akalix wrote: ↑

Tue May 07, 2024 8:58 pm

Our philosophy has always been focusing on enhancing and polishing the existing identity of classes and specializations, rather than reworking or replacing them entirely. As fun as some more wacky concepts may be, we want to keep true to the identity of vanilla classes. This means smaller and less drastic changes overall, which should culminate in a healthy meta allowing each class and specialization to shine in their own way.

Curious what this means for the so called "meme" specs. Melee hunters have been asking for love for quite some time (had a post on the forums regarding this that gained some traction). My fear is this means they are NOT getting the support we have been asking for awhile. Any way we can get some clarification or will it have to wait till further down the line?

Rogues using axes?!

Axellent!

Instead of buffing night elf racials, we re nerfing all of the remaining races. If that isn't a night elf buff, then I don't know what is.

Deathbringer backstabs when?

Server maintenance to add the weapon skill change right now? NICE

Polearm for shaman plz!

Its not a big thing, but priests "inner fire" still have the old old addative of "Attack power" from when priests were intended to be a semi melee character in the very first draft of wow.

I have never encountered a priest that actually uses melee for anything other than striking judged mobs/bosses for mana regain. And then you dont use AP to hit with anyway so it dont matter much.

Cant this be changed to something a little more fun?

Spell power good but slightly boring.
Heals rest of party for 20 % of dmg taken, a bit more fun in 5 man dungeons.
"hand of god" moves the priest to the designated tank and transferes some of the aggro on him or give the tank the next strike, kinda like intervene. Really usefull and good.
Random effect, "Sheild", "Greater heal", "Fade" or freeze enemy in place with a shackle animation. Id like this wild card the most.

This is not a good change, in my opinion. Part of what makes vanilla interesting is that while the other races are unique looking and have cool (albeit not powerful) racials, humans/orcs are always the go-to for maximum melee damage. This leads to the population of each faction being skewed in favour of these races, which is lore accurate. By removing this reason for players to pick said races, you're changing the composition of guilds/raids away from that.

I understand not wanting players to feel like they HAVE TO pick the main race of each faction in order to "parse", but I believe that's what made original Warcraft so great - the fact that you have a choice (either go for the mainstream race/class and have a gameplay advantage OR go for the off-race/off-class and enjoy being special, but with a drawback); this just removes some of that choice and leads into the same "everyone gets everything" mentality that came with Wrath and further expansions.

Remember, when everyone is special, noone is.

Also, if you want players to not feel like they're constrained by the meta, why not give all priests Fear Ward? Why do players have to be dwarves to raid properly? Or Starshards / Devouring Plague. Why be forced to play night-elf/undead to be a better shadow priest?

Nerat wrote: ↑

Wed May 08, 2024 12:33 am

This is not a good change, in my opinion. Part of what makes vanilla interesting is that while the other races are unique looking and have cool (albeit not powerful) racials, humans/orcs are always the go-to for maximum melee damage. This leads to the population of each faction being skewed in favour of these races, which is lore accurate. By removing this reason for players to pick said races, you're changing the composition of guilds/raids away from that.

I understand not wanting players to feel like they HAVE TO pick the main race of each faction in order to "parse", but I believe that's what made original Warcraft so great - the fact that you have a choice (either go for the mainstream race/class and have a gameplay advantage OR go for the off-race/off-class and enjoy being special, but with a drawback); this just removes some of that choice and leads into the same "everyone gets everything" mentality that came with Wrath and further expansions.

Remember, when everyone is special, noone is.

We're aware that this is exactly the reason players pick these specific races. We want to keep that "niche" of specific races alive while also removing the "I HAVE TO pick this race if I want to be any good at x or y" without resorting to racial-swapping as that plays more into homogenization and the "everyone is special" narrative.

>Linearizing Weapon Skill vs Defense Skill to make the breakpoints much more clear.

I think its a bit funny that, for such an old game a mechanic, which is well known, documented and not hard to read upon, has to be made "more clear"?

Nerfing Weapon Skill seems interesting. But please dont make it like Bow-Skill, where the learned thing in Hyal just gives the Troll racial to everyone now, without adding any form of compensation for people already playing troll.

why they need to make everything so complicated. Give the dwarves and some other race masteries AND THAT'S IT! Why do they complicate things so much? I don't understand

Jamey wrote: ↑

Wed May 08, 2024 12:38 am

We're aware that this is exactly the reason players pick these specific races. We want to keep that "niche" of specific races alive while also removing the "I HAVE TO pick this race if I want to be any good at x or y" without resorting to racial-swapping as that plays more into homogenization and the "everyone is special" narrative.

But people don't HAVE TO pick those races to be GOOD at those things. While +5 weapon skill is pretty big, you'd still need more from gear to get to the sweet spot where you need less hit from gear. Players don't automatically perform better just because of this racial bonus, they still need to invest time into properly gearing to hit the extra weapon skill required and pick the right gear for their hit needs accordingly.

A better way to make the racials less impactful, imo, would be to introduce more items with +weapon skill on them. This would keep humans/orcs racials special, while allowing other races to more easily be on par with them. A big part of why the skill was considered so big was the rarity of it on endgame gear, so adding more items with it solves the issue without hurting the racial balance.

With these proposed changes to Racial Skills you will:
A) Have a nerfed +3 skill on human which will allow the war to get the +5 source and have base +8 skill
B) Do not allow war to have the extra +5 skill and then make human be the worst race to use swords/maces

either way the changes sound good on paper but even giving it 5 minutes of thought makes it fall appart but I guess we will have to wait and see how it turns out...

Just have recipes tailors, LWs and mostly blacksmiths (quite unuseful profession atm) can learn that would allow people to change the item class, and defactor the +weapon skill of some items.

IE Gressil + (BS craftable and consumable item) --> Axe

The blacksmithing mats could be like 5 Enchanted Thorium Bars, 1 Large Opal/Huge Eme/Az Diamond, etc

It would have just been better to reintroduce race change into the game than fundamentally change this.

There is nothing confusing about weapon skill. You get a certain amount of decrease in glancing up to 308 where it doesn't reduce further, and you get an effective 3% hit at the 305 threshold. When you say make this linear, do you mean to say that 303 weapon skill will give you 2% hit?

This could have been done through itemization. Remnants of the old god and ashkin belt come to mind. Very strong choice, the only problem is the lack of OH choices for fist other than Claw of the Frost Wyrm from Saph. It is very strong set up nonetheless, and is a near BiS that performs close to Gressil/THC for off races as is. What is the point of deviating from this path of development?

Finally, we could actually try balancing racials. Limit specialization to one type of weapons, nerf hardiness, give night elves something that isn't dog water, etc.

Jamey wrote: ↑

Wed May 08, 2024 12:38 am

Nerat wrote: ↑

Wed May 08, 2024 12:33 am

This is not a good change, in my opinion. Part of what makes vanilla interesting is that while the other races are unique looking and have cool (albeit not powerful) racials, humans/orcs are always the go-to for maximum melee damage. This leads to the population of each faction being skewed in favour of these races, which is lore accurate. By removing this reason for players to pick said races, you're changing the composition of guilds/raids away from that.

I understand not wanting players to feel like they HAVE TO pick the main race of each faction in order to "parse", but I believe that's what made original Warcraft so great - the fact that you have a choice (either go for the mainstream race/class and have a gameplay advantage OR go for the off-race/off-class and enjoy being special, but with a drawback); this just removes some of that choice and leads into the same "everyone gets everything" mentality that came with Wrath and further expansions.

Remember, when everyone is special, noone is.

We're aware that this is exactly the reason players pick these specific races. We want to keep that "niche" of specific races alive while also removing the "I HAVE TO pick this race if I want to be any good at x or y" without resorting to racial-swapping as that plays more into homogenization and the "everyone is special" narrative.

It will still be the case except now it will revolve around non-weapon skill racials. This change takes away from humans the only real reason to ever pick that race (10% rep is only a temporary benefit). If this doesn't come with reenabling race change you will be getting a LOT of complaining in the forums.

Rogues with axes is a complete BS.

At this point go ahead and give'em 2-h maces skill as well.

No bueno.

whoa, rogues can use axes, absolutely huge impact. colossal impact

think of all the crazy shit rogues can get up to now that they couldnt do before

like hitting things with axes

If weapon skills are getting rebalanced for races it would only make sense for racial abilities to get some changes too.

Quality of life changes, such as a buff to Paladin blessing duration and Shaman weapon duration enhancement duration please!!!

Why bother with all of this weapon skill book nonsense when this is essentially just Expertise with extra steps? As a non-human melee class this benefits me, but racials are going to be very imbalanced as a result of this change.

Man just give more +5 items and +5 racials compared to nerfing a race nobody will pick if it's nerfed (Human)

If 10 weapon skill would increase damage for like 1%, then it would be fine. Today it increases damage for much higher values.
But how it could be "linearized"? Main feature of weapon skill is to remove glancing blow penalty.
I see two option to linearize it:
1. remove glancing blows from attack table
2. make glancing blows unavoidable
Path 2 will greatly nerf DPS of warriors in raids. They needed that damage to get rage to keep DPS further. No other class has this multiplicative effect on damage output. So to improve DPS of other classes, it is easier to nerf warriors than to buff everyone.
My intuition tells me that turtle devs will choose path 2.

This is exactly the good philosophy

give human every man for himself so that their can be some semblance of pvp balance if youre going to give horde all of alliances best racials

Must be honest, not excited about the changes announced and i really hope it is only because of the "unhappy" wording used XD

Akalix wrote: ↑

Tue May 07, 2024 8:58 pm

Weapon Skill

Weapon skill is not being removed. The system belongs in an RPG game such as World of Warcraft, and thus, we have no intentions of scrapping the system. However, another crucial part of an RPG game is being able to create the character you want to play, without outside reasons such as the meta determining their race and class—a racial weapon skill bonus shouldn't prevent someone from making a Gnome warrior—only good taste should.

Nice presentation and 100% agree, but the solution is simple: let characters choose the weapon spec(s) they want at the creation and change them with golds, like talents. You can even make differences between classes (ie Warriors 3 picks, Paladins 2 picks, Rogues 1 pick). No point to do something different imo.

To achieve this, while still maintaining the classical RPG elements of different races having various specialties and weaknesses, we will be doing a few things:

• Racial Weapon Skill Bonuses will be nerfed, while not entirely removed.

Mate, never use the word "nerf" when announcing a change XD

• Linearizing Weapon Skill vs Defense Skill to make the breakpoints much more clear.

Mmm this is the main source of my fear... Weapon Skill vs Defense Skill is the CORE of this version combat mechanic and i am very afraid to say you guys already showed a wrong approach concerning maths and numbers. The risk to mess up all the combat system is really high.

• Adding +5 skill bonus rewards from various sources.

As I said before, fine if you make characters choose the specs at the creation, no point for more. Fearing these "various sources" will be the already seen 57 long quest-chain, costing thousands gold and weeks of gameplay... And probably you will nerf or rework it after couple weeks XD

• Rogues will gain the ability to use One-Handed Axes.

Good change ONLY IF the Sword Specialization talent in Combat will affect also Axes (if you do not want to add more talents i mean) and even so atm One-Handed Axes in the database cannot be compared with Swords for damage output. Imho, pointless if not supported by any change in talents and/or new items.

• Throwing Weapons will now be repairable rather than needing restocked similar to ammo.

Very very nice :) But, again, you must add new items in the Databes, considering the strongest thrown weapon is atm ilvl63. Unless this change is only a "fancy fashion" one :)

Elleshar wrote: ↑

Wed May 08, 2024 2:15 am

If weapon skills are getting rebalanced for races it would only make sense for racial abilities to get some changes too.

Yes exactly this. I think they will try to balance racials (especially human).