P2W in Turtle WoW

[Zvyrhol]

I was watching one video about "Pay To Win" in MMO games a few hours ago and I found interesting criteria to check whether or not the game you play is P2W. I thought it would be cool idea to compare these criteria to Turtle WoW and maybe in future invent own criteria adjusted to WoW private servers. In this post I'm going to verify how much P2W we've got here. I don't take into consideration illegal P2W elements such as buying gold from gold sellers because 1) they are not supported by Turtle WoW, 2) they happen on every server.

With green color I've marked P2W levels that average anti-P2W person should like about Turtle WoW, with yellow criteria that are contested and require more discussion and with red problems that anti-P2W person would hate about Turtle WoW. The levels of P2W depth are following:

• Level 1 : Can't pay to Win at All, there is no way to give the Game Money beyond original Purchase.

• Level 2 : Cosmetic Purchases, where they are pay to win because content design changes to make the best looking things get behind a paywall as you dont "win" until you look the best possible way.

• Level 3 : Early Game Boost that is overclassed quickly, basically time saver type of pay to win.

• Level 4 : System based adventage that makes the game easier to play, basically quality of Life behind a paywall like inventory slots or an update with balances (DLC).

• Level 5 : Skip "un-fun" parts of the game like Level Boosts or Grinding requirements to reach the "fun" content immediately.

• Level 6 : Money CAN directly buy Power, but the power achievable this way has a ceiling or is capped, there's only so much you can pay and non-paying players can still reach it.

• Level 7 : Money directly buys power, and the power achievable this way has no ceiling nor is capped, you can buy as much power as you want but non-paying players can still THEORETICALLY reach it.

• Level 8 : Money can buy power AT A CHANCE, essentially gambling for Power where you may not see your money's worth or have it overflow, Psychological theory comes to play in the game design (addiction elements/sunk cost fallacy) to keep a Player on it even if they dont spend anymore.

• Level 9 : Money can buy power either at a Chance or Directly that non-paying players have NO WAY of achieving, essentially dividing the game in two completely different experiences and the hard wall is eventually hit by either side.

• Level 10 : Subjectivity, what you want from the game is the only important thing, if that is locked behind a paywall it is pay to win to you.

Note these levels aren't my own and are very general to fit every game made, I only compare them to this server. I don't find these criteria perfect for WoW because in my opinion they lack division into categories like pure gameplay, appearance etc. Below I justify why some levels aren't P2W-free.

• Level 1: It's obvious. You have a way of spending money in Turtle WoW via donation shop.

• Level 2: Some cosmetics are locked behind donation shop - that's a fact. There is even one Dev responsible for making elegant clothes in the shop.

• Level 3: I don't know anything in Turtle WoW that can be classified as Early Game Boost. Everyone experiences same start.

• Level 4: There are a few conveniences for donators: mobile bank, mobile AH, mobile vendor, 36-slot bags. Definetely QoL features.

• Level 5: The problem is with Goblin Brainwashing Device. It can be bought by 2 ways: via real money from donation shop or by purchasing it in the game for 350g. Surely, it's not a big thing but I can't mark it with green.

• Level 6: Here starts the problem. There is no way to buy gold, gear, levels etc. However, Power can be seen as appearance for some players. If so, there are some cosmetics and mounts in donation shop that can't be obtained in any other way than paying - thus non-paying players can't get them.

• Level 7: Same as above. Though donation shop has ceiling - there isn't infinite number of things you can buy.

• Level 8: I've marked it as yellow because about 2 weeks ago Turtle Team added eggs to the donation shop and guess what - there were random things from shop inside. At first drop chances weren't described so we can classify them as loot boxes. I even saw rumors in world chat that Thunderfury can drop from these eggs. Of course this wasn't true but some stupid people might have believed. In that case there is psychological element involved which some people may find immoral.

• Level 9: Yellow because as said earlier some people may perceive appearance, pets, mounts as Power. There is a chance involved in those eggs. Rest is bought directly and non-payers have no way of receiving items from donation shop.

In summary, this server is P2W for people interested in transmog, appearance, mounts and pets. Looking at gameplay there is no P2W, everyone has same power and there is no money involved. Looking at farming, there are QoL items like bags or summonable vendor that allow you to farm more efficiently. There is one P2Skip element - Goblin Brainwashing Device - that allows you to invest money to save 350g and enjoy full content offered.

Share your opinion.

[Forbearance]

Store bags devalues tailoring for bags.

Store field repair bot devalues engineering, which has its own field repair bot recipe which nobody uses.

Store summonable mailbox/auctioneer/bank devalues the community aspect of the game, as players no longer gather at major cities or hubs as much to engage in those activites.

[Turboman]

Store bags devalues tailoring for bags.

Store field repair bot devalues engineering, which has its own field repair bot recipe which nobody uses.

Store summonable mailbox/auctioneer/bank devalues the community aspect of the game, as players no longer gather at major cities or hubs as much to engage in those activites.

Where can i get the schematic?

[Drubarrymooer]

There is no p2w. Even tmogs need to be obtained first. The pets and mounts you buy provide no extra bonuses. All bags scale pretty linear in price on the ah.

[Geojak]

Turtle wow is at level 4.
Maybe level 6 due to brainwashing
I don't consider transmog, Illusion or mounts, pets as "power". They are cosmetics, this is covered in level 2.

[Torta]

Level 1 : Can't pay to Win at All, there is no way to give the Game Money beyond original Purchase.

Please consider that our mod project is free to play but requires significant resources, staff, and effort to maintain. Judging us by the same standards as AAA studios feels quite unjust, especially as we always tried to uphold our principles and avoid pay-to-win features, navigating between high costs and no-less high expectations.

This is challenging compared to major studios that benefit from larger budgets through subscriptions, investments, and actual revenue from selling the game. We don’t have the moral right to claim these sources of income since we're working with Blizzard's game and rely solely on donations to continue Mysteries of Azeroth.

I don't know of any successful and long-term project with ~100-200 dedicated staff members that has managed to run for more than two years solely on the owner's funds or on donations that offer nothing in return. Let me know if you do.

[Jkldsngkljsng]

............

[Bogyone]

I recommend reading this site to build up knowledge on how devs can hook us up on games. This is the prerequisite for p2w being an issue.
https://www.darkpattern.games/

[Natuaduck]

Store bags devalues tailoring for bags.

Store field repair bot devalues engineering, which has its own field repair bot recipe which nobody uses.

Store summonable mailbox/auctioneer/bank devalues the community aspect of the game, as players no longer gather at major cities or hubs as much to engage in those activites.

I have never seen major cities and hubs as populated as they are than on Turtle lol. Stormwind is always packed and the AH is always full. Even Ironforge has a lot of people. Teldrassil not so much because it's such an out of the way city. Orgrimmar is always full, Undercity is always pretty lackluster in population but that's because that city is a pain in the ass and clearly not a good central hub.

[Bigsmerf]

Store bags devalues tailoring for bags.

Store field repair bot devalues engineering, which has its own field repair bot recipe which nobody uses.

Store summonable mailbox/auctioneer/bank devalues the community aspect of the game, as players no longer gather at major cities or hubs as much to engage in those activites.

I have never seen major cities and hubs as populated as they are than on Turtle lol. Stormwind is always packed and the AH is always full. Even Ironforge has a lot of people. Teldrassil not so much because it's such an out of the way city. Orgrimmar is always full, Undercity is always pretty lackluster in population but that's because that city is a pain in the ass and clearly not a good central hub.

Don't forget TB. That place always had some people when I was last around.

[Akos1896]

I'm with TWOW regarding this question.
What you can buy with real money are cosmetics and qol. Also, qol benefits can be shared with everyone of your faction. If your raid has 1 horde repair bot, the whole horde section is covered.
Qol can be regarded as a borderline case, I agree.
But TWOW has no boost and has no exceptional gear hidden behind a paywall.
Egg was a mistake, I hope it never happens again but besides that I'm totally okay with what I see.

For example you mentioned that some people wanna seem stronger so they buy cosmetics. I'd consider this a personal problem of that player. You can't buy tier-item lookalikes in the shop.

I'd start worrying if egg-like features would become common and items such as Sulfuras would start appearing in the shop for 1000 coins next to the insta max level service (1000 coins). We are def not there.
Tried out retail recently and TWOW paid features seem EXTREMELY tame after that... thing.

[Zvyrhol]

Level 1 : Can't pay to Win at All, there is no way to give the Game Money beyond original Purchase.

Please consider that our mod project is free to play but requires significant resources, staff, and effort to maintain. Judging us by the same standards as AAA studios feels quite unjust, especially as we always tried to uphold our principles and avoid pay-to-win features, navigating between high costs and no-less high expectations.

This is challenging compared to major studios that benefit from larger budgets through subscriptions, investments, and actual revenue from selling the game. We don’t have the moral right to claim these sources of income since we're working with Blizzard's game and rely solely on donations to continue Mysteries of Azeroth.

I don't know of any successful and long-term project with ~100-200 dedicated staff members that has managed to run for more than two years solely on the owner's funds or on donations that offer nothing in return. Let me know if you do.

In other words, the ends justify the means. That is your stance I respect that though I'm idealist.

[Geojak]

maybe we could have a server trasnfer service, now that the trasnfer tool to SEA is online?
additionaly to the free one ticket to SEA, you could offer
200 points to transfer to telabim
200 points to trasnferm to nordannar

oh and any news on .racechange. is it gonna come back (as was said overa year ago once technical issues are solved) or has the project changed its mind on now wishes to permanetly keep this service disabled?

[Geojak]

another thing i could see as a possible extra buy option.
you can either pay 200 points to unlock the goblin bran washing or pay 350g.

how about pay 400 points to unlock a guild bank (costs 2000g)
many smaller guilds cant afford a guild bank, maybe they could be tempted to cash out for it

[Macro]

Never Forget Egg Incident...

Tarnished reputation a bit... At the very least hope TWoW was able to temporarily boost their coffers. It comes off as desperate. Which could be true. I interpreted the egg as a prong to test the community. Though if they continue to expand down that line or keep egg for next year I suspect integrity will continue to be questioned. Another community or server could capitalize on the degrading rep. There are other ways to raise funds that maintain integrity. I would suggest maybe a cosmetic that's intentionally in solidarity with the devs, intentionally to support them.

[Mac]

Level 1 : Can't pay to Win at All, there is no way to give the Game Money beyond original Purchase.

Please consider that our mod project is free to play but requires significant resources, staff, and effort to maintain. Judging us by the same standards as AAA studios feels quite unjust, especially as we always tried to uphold our principles and avoid pay-to-win features, navigating between high costs and no-less high expectations.

This is challenging compared to major studios that benefit from larger budgets through subscriptions, investments, and actual revenue from selling the game. We don’t have the moral right to claim these sources of income since we're working with Blizzard's game and rely solely on donations to continue Mysteries of Azeroth.

I don't know of any successful and long-term project with ~100-200 dedicated staff members that has managed to run for more than two years solely on the owner's funds or on donations that offer nothing in return. Let me know if you do.

What percent of that 100 to 200 staff are being paid a salary? I thought GMs and such were largely unpaid volunteers, which is a donation of time in a way.

[Sylveria]

i avoided this topic tbh. Since the naming of this topic is kinda turning my stomach. :/
Someone who reads just the title may think, that TWoW might be a Pay2Win Project, and rumours do spread quickly, which would be just unfair, since Torta already stated: This is a free2play project but they still have expenses. (And they're walking on the dark side of the law on top of that, don't forget this fact).
We don't have to spent a single dime. Not just that, but through Turtle-Mode, we can earn points for the donation shop and can get the stuff from there for free.

Those who are unhappy with the shop should feel free to turn to other private server projects.
Yes, i see the egg-cident was a bit unfortunate and i hope that the dev-team learned from it and won't do something like that again. But aside from this one misstep, i wouldn't judge TWoW to be P2W at all.

[Turboman]

Never Forget Egg Incident...

Tarnished reputation a bit... At the very least hope TWoW was able to temporarily boost their coffers. It comes off as desperate. Which could be true. I interpreted the egg as a prong to test the community. Though if they continue to expand down that line or keep egg for next year I suspect integrity will continue to be questioned. Another community or server could capitalize on the degrading rep. There are other ways to raise funds that maintain integrity. I would suggest maybe a cosmetic that's intentionally in solidarity with the devs, intentionally to support them.

Can you elaborate on the egg incident? Was that a recent thing? Because I've played for a good year now and i've never heard about it.

[Sylveria]

Never Forget Egg Incident...

Tarnished reputation a bit... At the very least hope TWoW was able to temporarily boost their coffers. It comes off as desperate. Which could be true. I interpreted the egg as a prong to test the community. Though if they continue to expand down that line or keep egg for next year I suspect integrity will continue to be questioned. Another community or server could capitalize on the degrading rep. There are other ways to raise funds that maintain integrity. I would suggest maybe a cosmetic that's intentionally in solidarity with the devs, intentionally to support them.

Can you elaborate on the egg incident? Was that a recent thing? Because I've played for a good year now and i've never heard about it.

"The egg incident" was Just recently, yes. It was an Item bought in the Shop that was kinda Like a gacha-thingy: You got Something Random Out of it. So it was Something to spend Money on and to gamble on something good from the shop, Like the spectral tiger. Those Things are highly contoversial and also Dangerous a) for Kids and b) for people with gambling addictions.

[Grizb37]

I agree wit the Egg thing, it was kind of cringe and should have never happened.

Made me lose abit of hope in the server integrity and I've been playing here since 2019

[Torta]

What percent of that 100 to 200 staff are being paid a salary? I thought GMs and such were largely unpaid volunteers, which is a donation of time in a way.

The project began with volunteers, but for many years now, everyone here has been paid, including support staff, server and DB developers, client developers, web developers, sound designers, graphic designers, trailer makers, radio staff and DJs, 3D artists, testers, game designers, and writers, among others. Unless someone specifically refuses payment due to privacy concerns, it's safe to say that 99% of our team receives compensation.

Nowadays, we have stopped recruitment of new modders, because, at this point, we can't afford a bigger team.

All of this is possible thanks to the modest donation shop and the number of people playing simultaneously. We will face issues if the player population drops, but even then, we won't resort to introducing pay-to-win elements. The worst-case scenario if we no longer have funding is that development will stall, but the server will continue to run.

Claims that we're aiming for pay-to-win donation options are simply offensive to us, as we are doing everything possible to avoid this. That's why I've responded to this thread in the first place.

[Mac]

What percent of that 100 to 200 staff are being paid a salary? I thought GMs and such were largely unpaid volunteers, which is a donation of time in a way.

The project began with volunteers, but for many years now, everyone here has been paid, including support staff, server and DB developers, client developers, web developers, sound designers, graphic designers, trailer makers, radio staff and DJs, 3D artists, testers, game designers, and writers, among others. Unless someone specifically refuses payment due to privacy concerns, it's safe to say that 99% of our team receives compensation.

Nowadays, we have stopped recruitment of new modders, because, at this point, we can't afford a bigger team.

All of this is possible thanks to the modest donation shop and the number of people playing simultaneously. We will face issues if the player population drops, but even then, we won't resort to introducing pay-to-win elements. The worst-case scenario if we no longer have funding is that development will stall, but the server will continue to run.

Claims that we're aiming for pay-to-win donation options are simply offensive to us, as we are doing everything possible to avoid this. That's why I've responded to this thread in the first place.

I didn't know that about the staff. Really shows how much the project has grown.

As far as P2W is concerned, in my opinion it's a massive stretch to call Turtle Wow that. The reality is that running a server costs real world money, especially as the server grows and takes on more ambitious development goals like creating new raids and new raid gear tiers, and I'd hope we can all be adults here and appreciate that fact.

[Chudman123]

Twow is not pay to win at all imo.

Bags and respec are QoL items that 99 percent of everyone playing already earned on another server in this 20 year old game.

You can't buy power AND there is nothing like annoying ads or pop ups trying to get you to donate.

The egg thing maybe bad idea because of gambling but besides that it was all stuff you could get in the shop.

If they didn't have a way to earn money all our toons would cease to exist.....do any of you all work for free? I hope not because that's illogical AF....




I wish they would have an option to donate to PvP dev salary because I don't really care about the shop stuff but would love some pvp QoL!

[Chudman123]

I've played a lot of games and cannot think of one that is less p2w. Even dota and LoL have skins that are really hard to see spells and give pretty significant advantages.

[Botticelli]

I've never thought of Turtle Wow as P2W. I've bought a couple of things from the donation shop over time, but not because I needed to do so to play the game in the manner I desired. Rather, I did so because some of the donation items are cool, and I wanted to support this project that I have enjoyed for months. Maybe I am in the minority, but I appreciate the free entertainment this server offers, and I hope that it will continue for a long time.

[Zvyrhol]

Twow is not pay to win at all imo.

Bags and respec are QoL items that 99 percent of everyone playing already earned on another server in this 20 year old game.

This is completely false. Scorpion farm in LBRS is good example of P2W problem here. Imagine you have 2 paladins farming these scorpions straight for 10 hours. One paladin has bought summonable vendor, summonable AH and 4x 36-slot bags, the other paladin didn't donate money to the server. Guess who will earn more gold per hour: the one with limited bag slots and without vendor? No way. If the bags are full, the first paladin can summon vendor and free some slots with extra money earned, summon AH and auction valuable items that dropped, then continue farming. Meanwhile, the cheap paladin has to leave the LBRS and go to Searing Gorge to the closest vendor. After 10 hours, the first paladin will earn at least twice as the second. My example is cherry-picking though your thesis is that there is no P2W in Turtle WoW and these are only QoL items - my example is enough to show you are wrong.

Farmed gold per hour can be seen as Power in MMO unless there are no epic BoE items that you can buy for gold.

[Sylveria]

What exactly are you trying to achieve with this topic?
Do you want all players who ever bought something from the shop to be stripped of their stuff?
That the shop should be gone completly and the TWoW Team is struggling with funds?
Or is it just to give TWoW a bad reputation by saying, "that they are Pay2Win"?

[Chudman123]

Twow is not pay to win at all imo.

Bags and respec are QoL items that 99 percent of everyone playing already earned on another server in this 20 year old game.

This is completely false. Scorpion farm in LBRS is good example of P2W problem here. Imagine you have 2 paladins farming these scorpions straight for 10 hours. One paladin has bought summonable vendor, summonable AH and 4x 36-slot bags, the other paladin didn't donate money to the server. Guess who will earn more gold per hour: the one with limited bag slots and without vendor? No way. If the bags are full, the first paladin can summon vendor and free some slots with extra money earned, summon AH and auction valuable items that dropped, then continue farming. Meanwhile, the cheap paladin has to leave the LBRS and go to Searing Gorge to the closest vendor. After 10 hours, the first paladin will earn at least twice as the second. My example is cherry-picking though your thesis is that there is no P2W in Turtle WoW and these are only QoL items - my example is enough to show you are wrong.

Farmed gold per hour can be seen as Power in MMO unless there are no epic BoE items that you can buy for gold.

But almost no boe items are even close to bis, so faster leveling and pre raid bis advantage but honestly that gear is just crap when you can jump into BWL in green gear.

more efficiency in certain gold farms isn't p2w imo especially when 16 slot bags are super cheap and you can do things like hijal farm or all kinds of creative low bag space farms(that i wont mention cuz thats what I do since I donate but didn't get shop bags until like 3 months after being 60) as to not dilute my experience.

What would you suggest as an alternative that was less "p2w" but allowed server to make similar income?

[Akos1896]

Following that logic only cosmetics would be allowed.
I'm fine with the shop until:
* No item abuses gambling tendencies like lootboxes.
* Gold can't be bought.
* Boosting can't be bought.
* Items (thinking about high-end BOPs) can't be bought.
* Hard to farm skills like riding or max fishing can't be bought.
* Any guild advantage or personal PVP advantage can't be bought.
* The whole game can be played at the highest level without donating at all.

[Fizzler]

Please no more paid features that involve RNG/gambling from now on after since introducing the egg with random items. A friend of mine kept buying the egg for some reason. If necessary to help keep the server running at top speed, you can keep doing that type of content on the SEA servers since they tend to favor that type of content more, but we voice our concerns for the sake of the EU/NA community here.

[Chudman123]

Pretty unanimous that on Nord people hate the egg in the shop but besides that the server is pretty good. And I'm pretty sure you can get everything in the shop by simply playing the game.

[Torta]

Please no more paid features that involve RNG/gambling from now on after since introducing the egg with random items. A friend of mine kept buying the egg for some reason. If necessary to help keep the server running at top speed, you can keep doing that type of content on the SEA servers since they tend to favor that type of content more, but we voice our concerns for the sake of the EU/NA community here.

We have no plans to introduce features such as the egg in the future. However, I find comments like "we don't like it here, go add it on SEA" to be inappropriate. Please consider that SEA is not only supporting its own staff and network infrastructure, including heavily used download CDNs, but is also covering general project development costs for the entire community of Turtle WoW. Meanwhile, EU/NA can only partially sustain itself. It's neither bad nor good, it's simply how things are at the moment.

We have some really cool things cooking in the background, which only became possible because we expanded to this region. Keep this in mind before expressing the same ideas or disdain in the future.

[Zvyrhol]

What exactly are you trying to achieve with this topic?
Do you want all players who ever bought something from the shop to be stripped of their stuff?
That the shop should be gone completly and the TWoW Team is struggling with funds?
Or is it just to give TWoW a bad reputation by saying, "that they are Pay2Win"?

Just like I described at the beginning I was watching one video about P2W in games with universal criteria of P2W depth. That video inspired me to measure P2W on this server. I'm not trying to "achieve" anything in this topic, I thought it would be cool idea to share it with community.

The problem of cash shop in the game is that if you change the item that people have paid for, people will be mad. This happened a few months ago when Goblin Brainwashing Device was changed.

This post wasn't to give the server bad reputation. I've just assessed depth of P2W in Turtle WoW based on criteria from that video. Note I tried to be as objectived as possible measuring P2W level, some levels I have marked as contested because I know they are hard to measure in "yes-or-no". I wrote as many facts as possible and I tried avoiding my personal opinion. I know the result could have caused besieged fortress syndrome, nevertheless it's common sense to face reality.

[Sylveria]

What exactly are you trying to achieve with this topic?
Do you want all players who ever bought something from the shop to be stripped of their stuff?
That the shop should be gone completly and the TWoW Team is struggling with funds?
Or is it just to give TWoW a bad reputation by saying, "that they are Pay2Win"?

Just like I described at the beginning I was watching one video about P2W in games with universal criteria of P2W depth. That video inspired me to measure P2W on this server. I'm not trying to "achieve" anything in this topic, I thought it would be cool idea to share it with community.

The problem of cash shop in the game is that if you change the item that people have paid for, people will be mad. This happened a few months ago when Goblin Brainwashing Device was changed.

This post wasn't to give the server bad reputation. I've just assessed depth of P2W in Turtle WoW based on criteria from that video. Note I tried to be as objectived as possible measuring P2W level, some levels I have marked as contested because I know they are hard to measure in "yes-or-no". I wrote as many facts as possible and I tried avoiding my personal opinion. I know the result could have caused besieged fortress syndrome, nevertheless it's common sense to face reality.

I see that you tried to be objectively, but the topic in itself, Pay 2 Win, IS Overall Seen as negatively by Most people. It's Like with the Box of Pandora, some Things shouldn't be started even to Begin with, because it May have consequences already. Just by starting this topic newcomers May think (Just by Reading this topic and maybe fly over your Post, Not Reading It fully), that Turtle May be a P2W Server and May leave again before they even started. It also May spread rumours, Which would affect the Servers Reputation. I dont mean it in any ill will towards you, Just trying to Show what consequences this topic might have, since P2W (As Said) is an Overall negatively received topic, a Box of Pandora that shouldn't be opened. At least Not Here. (In my opinion).

[Akos1896]

Exactly.
I don't doubt your good intention but the title alone can rub people in the wrong way. The topic itself is valid, if title is renamed (I don't consider TWOW p2w but applying an external logic to TWOW is interesting).
Let's get real, most people read the title and draw conclusions then move on. Title doesn't seem like an introduction to a topic like this, it directly feels like an accusation, and people, who are lazy to read your analysis get the wrong idea.