Just some ideas for Feral Class Changes 2.0

[Grizb37]

Druid Baseline Spell Changes.

Barkskin: Now useable in Bear and Cat form.

Savage Bite
Now requires level 40 instead of 54.
Savagely Bite your target causing 100% damage + 85 and causes a high amount of threat.


Swipe (Bear) : Now scales with attack power.

Swipe (Cat) : Hits 3 targets for 75% Normal damage + 45 40 Energy.

Tiger's Fury now persists through shape-shifting.

Frenzied Regeneration: Reduced scaling from 10% Stamina to 5%.

Hurricane: 2sec cast time, no longer channeled. Cool down lowered to 30sec, attack speed debuff lowered to 10%

Rebirth: If used out of combat has a 10 min cool down, if used in combat 30 min

Innervate:
Increases targets mana regeneration by 400%
Increases targets energy regeneration by 100%
Target generates 3 rage per second.

Ever accidently used your innverate on a non mana user? Now it won't be a total waste.

Druid Talent Changes


Thick Hide: All Damage Taken reduced by 2/4/6% while in Bear or Cat Form. (will make it more useful as we have an Armor cap and this becomes useless)

Predatory Strikes: Increases Attack Power by 10% in Cat and Bear Form. (flat % to help us scale better, currently it caps out at +90 flat AP at 60)

Improved Shred: Reduces Energy cost by 9/18 (same value as tbc)

Blood Frenzy: Increases duration of Tiger's Fury by 6/12 sec and increases attack speed by 10/20%.

Leader of the Pack: Increases Critical chance by 4% and haste by 4%
(Idol changed - gives druids options to use other idols rather than forced into using something bis for other players)

Natural Shapeshifter: Reduces Mana cost of forms by 10/20/30% and reduces global cool down on shapeshifting by 0.2/0.3/0.5sec.

Feral Aggresion:
Increases the damage of Ferocious Bite & Savage Bite by 3/6/9/12/15%


Items:

Manual Crowd Pummler.
Charges removed, now increases attack speed by 50% and 10min cool down.

Idol of Moonfang:
Increases critical chance of Moonfire and Starfire by 5%

Idol of Emerald Rot:
Spell power scaling removed (as per recent update)
You deal 85 Nature damage per combo point. (Can Crit)

Idol of Ferocity:
Reduces Energy cost of Claw/Rake/Rip by 3 and increases damage by 10%

Idol of Savagery:
Your Rip and Rake now slow targets movement speed by 30%

[Bigsmerf]

This all looks pretty cool actually. Some of it's questionable, like MCP's 10 minute CD. I know having charges made things tedious with farming or grinding, but at least you don't suffer from an overall DPS loss or inconsistency/spikes in power. Personally I'd just have it built into the spec, but nerfed a bit.

Second would be the ferocious bite talent buff. It -looks- nice in theory, but I've hardly taken it for the DPS bonus even though I tend to fill that role more often. Not sure what the preference is for other people though.

I actually kinda feel like the nerf for frenzied regen is needed, since it's pretty damn strong in PvP, but as a biased feral main and tank enjoyer I also like having it as an emergency "Local coked up florida bear literally too angry to die" button.

Idol of savagery is also a little much. Bleeds don't have many methods of dispelling them, so really only other druids could dispell that innately or without racials.

[Majestik51]

just put the Druid in Naxx as end game Big-Boss.....

are u mad bro? druids are already unkillable and have top burst dmg on pvp
pls stop dreaming.

[Bigsmerf]

just put the Druid in Naxx as end game Big-Boss.....

are u mad bro? druids are already unkillable and have top burst dmg on pvp
pls stop dreaming.

Other classes are being buffed too. 'Nuthin else really needs to be said.

[Grizb37]

just put the Druid in Naxx as end game Big-Boss.....

are u mad bro? druids are already unkillable and have top burst dmg on pvp
pls stop dreaming.

I didn't really give them much more dmg, just made useless talents useful and I actually said to nerf Frenzied Regen to help take bears down in PvP.

Most of it was just QoL changes.

Top Dmg in PvP? Yeah maybe one Ravage Crit against cloth but as cat you're squishy as heck, and bear does no dmg... Then you get those MoM Palas critting 5k holy strike with berserk

[Elesion]

I think most of these proposals point out legitimate problems feral druids currently face. Some go a little overboard and seem too strong, but it's a good list to highlight current shortcomings of the class.

The only thing not covered at all is the problem with bears and dodge. The way TWoW devs design items they clearly think dodge is a great stat for bear tanks (Ring of Nordrassil anyone?), but many high-end tanks disagree. The way the hit table works, dodge generally pushes out regular attacks while leaving crushing blows and critical strikes untouched (meaning it takes out trickle damage but leaves dangerous damage spikes untouched). Dodging many regular attacks can also rage-starve you. I would like to see a talent the remedies these problems. Something that procs on dodges in bear form. It should 1) make sure dodge doesn't have a negative effect and 2) make dodge attractive. I'm thinking of something like:
Every time you dodge in bear form, you gain 5 rage and gain a buff giving you 5% attackspeed for 10s that stacks up to 5 times.

Other than that omission there is only 2 proposals I have issues with:

Frenzied Regeneration: Reduced scaling from 10% Stamina to 5%.

(Idol changed - gives druids options to use other idols rather than forced into using something bis for other players)
Idol of Moonfang:
Increases critical chance of Moonfire and Starfire by 5%

Bears are already deeply lacking in defensive cooldowns compared to warriors. Frenzied Regen can't remotely measure up to something like Shield Wall. Nerfing it removes one of the few (and quite mediocre) emergency cooldowns we have. I can see the problems in PvP, but in PvE it's pretty fine? It seems very overpowered in dungeons, but is not great at all in raid enviroments. I'm open to toning it down a little (maybe 8%?) but if you go further we should definitely talk about adding new defensive cooldowns that are useful in raids.

And I like Druids not being a completely selfish class like many others that barely interact with others or not at all. Druids are a support class, I'm fine with items that buff our party aura. Also, you mention giving druids options to use other idols - except now there are fewer options. Raid cats use Shred. If you change Moonfang they now have zero idols to use (well, Emerald Rot, but you only need that for the finisher).

Good list, interesting proposals though!

[Templar85]

Good ideas mentioned here except this

Frenzied Regeneration: Reduced scaling from 10% Stamina to 5%

Druids don't have Shield Wall or Last Stand, this is their only defensive cooldown. We can nerf it a little, but not by lowering the healing amount. After druid used Frenzied Regeneration when it ends druids gain debuff for 30 seconds. Dodge chance lowered by 30% and moving speed by 10% Also not mentioned that Rake is absolute garbage.
I posted a bigger change suggestion here viewtopic.php?p=83965#p83965

[Jc473]

just put the Druid in Naxx as end game Big-Boss.....

are u mad bro? druids are already unkillable and have top burst dmg on pvp
pls stop dreaming.

I didn't really give them much more dmg, just made useless talents useful and I actually said to nerf Frenzied Regen to help take bears down in PvP.

Most of it was just QoL changes.

Ummm, are you sure?

Savagely Bite your target causing 100% damage + 85 and causes a high amount of threat.
Swipe (Bear) : Now scales with attack power.
Swipe (Cat) : Hits 3 targets for 75% Normal damage + 45 40 Energy.
Tiger's Fury now persists through shape-shifting.
Blood Frenzy: Increases duration of Tiger's Fury by 6/12 sec and increases attack speed by 10/20%.
Predatory Strikes: Increases Attack Power by 10% in Cat and Bear Form. (flat % to help us scale better, currently it caps out at +90 flat AP at 60)
Improved Shred: Reduces Energy cost by 9/18 (same value as tbc)
Leader of the Pack: Increases Critical chance by 4% and haste by 4%
Feral Aggresion: Increases the damage of Ferocious Bite & Savage Bite by 3/6/9/12/15%
Idol of Ferocity: Reduces Energy cost of Claw/Rake/Rip by 3 and increases damage by 10%

All of these changes are damage increases and quite a few of them are already used in PvP where feral druids are already way too strong. Not to mention that one you've added a 0.5 secs GCD reduction on an already popular talent and an option to add a slow to Rip/Rake.

I'm sorry but these changes would make feral druids more oppressive than they already are in PvP.

Top Dmg in PvP? Yeah maybe one Ravage Crit against cloth but as cat you're squishy as heck, and bear does no dmg... Then you get those MoM Palas critting 5k holy strike with berserk

Bears do a deceptive amount of damage. Certainly, a disproportionate amount for how tough they are!
It is well recognised that they are too strong and they will almost undoubtedly be brought into line with the next round of class changes. So, let's not use Paladins as some sort of reference/benchmark because it will not be relevant soon enough.

[Jc473]

just put the Druid in Naxx as end game Big-Boss.....

are u mad bro? druids are already unkillable and have top burst dmg on pvp
pls stop dreaming.

Other classes are being buffed too. 'Nuthin else really needs to be said.

Are you referring to what's already been done to the classes so far? Or, what's coming in the next round of class changes?

Either way, I don't think it's healthy to buff classes to this extent. Power creep is always a pitfall in game design and the OP is a perfect example of it. I really hope the next round of class changes includes nerfs as well as buffs.

Also, I'm not a fan of making changes to address the weaknesses of classes. Cat druids lack AoE damage and, you know what? That's perfectly OK. RPG ---> classes having strengths/weakness is a cherished hallmark of the genre.

[Bigsmerf]

just put the Druid in Naxx as end game Big-Boss.....

are u mad bro? druids are already unkillable and have top burst dmg on pvp
pls stop dreaming.

Other classes are being buffed too. 'Nuthin else really needs to be said.

Are you referring to what's already been done to the classes so far? Or, what's coming in the next round of class changes?

Either way, I don't think it's healthy to buff classes to this extent. Power creep is always a pitfall in game design and the OP is a perfect example of it. I really hope the next round of class changes includes nerfs as well as buffs.

Also, I'm not a fan of making changes to address the weaknesses of classes. Cat druids lack AoE damage and, you know what? That's perfectly OK. RPG ---> classes having strengths/weakness is a cherished hallmark of the genre.

Yes, I am. "Are being buffed" is different from "Was buffed" or something like that. Future tense and past tense.

Yeah, I kinda have to agree with this. I'd prefer some minor stuff over big changes, but my point is if every class gets buffed to this extent, at least in theory, it would be balanced... Ish

Warrior has arguably the best single target damage as well as the best melee cleave. Enh sham at least has magma totem and chain lightning, rogue has... Blade flurry? conc is baseline for pally, etc etc. Point is damn near every melee has aoe, even if it's pitiful or niche. Druid shouldn't be mid to high tier single target DPS and still have z e r o aoe

[Jc473]

Are you referring to what's already been done to the classes so far? Or, what's coming in the next round of class changes?

Either way, I don't think it's healthy to buff classes to this extent. Power creep is always a pitfall in game design and the OP is a perfect example of it. I really hope the next round of class changes includes nerfs as well as buffs.

Also, I'm not a fan of making changes to address the weaknesses of classes. Cat druids lack AoE damage and, you know what? That's perfectly OK. RPG ---> classes having strengths/weakness is a cherished hallmark of the genre.

Yes, I am. "Are being buffed" is different from "Was buffed" or something like that. Future tense and past tense.

Yeah, I kinda have to agree with this. I'd prefer some minor stuff over big changes, but my point is if every class gets buffed to this extent, at least in theory, it would be balanced... Ish

Warrior has arguably the best single target damage as well as the best melee cleave. Enh sham at least has magma totem and chain lightning, rogue has... Blade flurry? conc is baseline for pally, etc etc. Point is damn near every melee has aoe, even if it's pitiful or niche. Druid shouldn't be mid to high tier single target DPS and still have z e r o aoe

OK, so you are using future tense. So, you are on the class changes council? Or are you making an educated guess that classes will be buffed? I mean, not gonna lie, I think the majority of changes will be buffs but they will be to weaker specs or underutilised talents. But I really hope that they do not take the approach of the OP because that'll just be flat out power creep which is never a good thing. Even if classes somehow felt 'balanced' with each other across PvP/PvE, you'll still have to rebalance the world/dungeons/raids to account for this power creep so that you keep the same adventuring difficulty.

As for your last point, I think the perspective is too narrow. Sure, it seemingly makes sense to focus on the damage from a single/AoE perspective but I think this fails to consider what each class can bring to a situation with their whole toolkit. It's not all about DPS. By the way, this is coming from a Druid/Mage player so I know full well what it feels like when AoE damage is required. And, you know what? I'm absolutely OK with it.

[Intensity]

I'd like to see form to form shifting.

[Twinking]

I don't understand why not make Omen of Clarity ability passive?
Shamans have an alternative ability Elemental Focus and it does't need to be activated every time, and it cannot be dispelled...

[Rogerdabbit]

The only thing not covered at all is the problem with bears and dodge. The way TWoW devs design items they clearly think dodge is a great stat for bear tanks (Ring of Nordrassil anyone?), but many high-end tanks disagree. The way the hit table works, dodge generally pushes out regular attacks while leaving crushing blows and critical strikes untouched (meaning it takes out trickle damage but leaves dangerous damage spikes untouched). Dodging many regular attacks can also rage-starve you. I would like to see a talent the remedies these problems. Something that procs on dodges in bear form. It should 1) make sure dodge doesn't have a negative effect and 2) make dodge attractive. I'm thinking of something like:
Every time you dodge in bear form, you gain 5 rage and gain a buff giving you 5% attackspeed for 10s that stacks up to 5 times.

I think this is an excellent idea. Dodging an attack is an ideal defensive response and it shouldn't result in negative consequences for the dodger. It doesn't really make sense, from a design standpoint, to penalize a dodge like that.

[Grizb37]

The only thing not covered at all is the problem with bears and dodge. The way TWoW devs design items they clearly think dodge is a great stat for bear tanks (Ring of Nordrassil anyone?), but many high-end tanks disagree. The way the hit table works, dodge generally pushes out regular attacks while leaving crushing blows and critical strikes untouched (meaning it takes out trickle damage but leaves dangerous damage spikes untouched). Dodging many regular attacks can also rage-starve you. I would like to see a talent the remedies these problems. Something that procs on dodges in bear form. It should 1) make sure dodge doesn't have a negative effect and 2) make dodge attractive. I'm thinking of something like:
Every time you dodge in bear form, you gain 5 rage and gain a buff giving you 5% attackspeed for 10s that stacks up to 5 times.

I think this is an excellent idea. Dodging an attack is an ideal defensive response and it shouldn't result in negative consequences for the dodger. It doesn't really make sense, from a design standpoint, to penalize a dodge like that.

Yeah great idea, I think they had something like this in Wotlk? Where if you dodged you got +5 Rage.

I think a good place for this new talent would be Feral Aggresion, something you can get early on as a bear, as you seriously lack rage gen at those low levels

Increases Damage you deal with Ferocious bite by 3/6/9/12/15%, and generates 1/2/3/4/5 Rage and Increases attack speed by 1/2/3/4/5% while in Bear or Dire Bear Form Stacks up to 5 times.

[Noephix]

Druid shouldn't be mid to high tier single target DPS and still have z e r o aoe

I agree with it - but I'd rather see cat to be buffed to be top-tier single target DPS instead of giving them AoE. Feel like it gives stronger class identity.

[Gantulga]

lol, lmao even

[Bigsmerf]

Druid shouldn't be mid to high tier single target DPS and still have z e r o aoe

I agree with it - but I'd rather see cat to be buffed to be top-tier single target DPS instead of giving them AoE. Feel like it gives stronger class identity.

Honestly? Fair. I have fun optimising play and gaining aoe through unconventional means sometimes. (Like immo pot or dragonbreath chili) but something like a cat equivalent to blade flurry might be nice, even if that might contribute to some button bloat.

[Akos1896]

Druid shouldn't be mid to high tier single target DPS and still have z e r o aoe

I agree with it - but I'd rather see cat to be buffed to be top-tier single target DPS instead of giving them AoE. Feel like it gives stronger class identity.

Honestly? Fair. I have fun optimising play and gaining aoe through unconventional means sometimes. (Like immo pot or dragonbreath chili) but something like a cat equivalent to blade flurry might be nice, even if that might contribute to some button bloat.

What if some cat abilities would be tweaked that they cleave if they crit (and only then)?

[Bigsmerf]

I agree with it - but I'd rather see cat to be buffed to be top-tier single target DPS instead of giving them AoE. Feel like it gives stronger class identity.

Honestly? Fair. I have fun optimising play and gaining aoe through unconventional means sometimes. (Like immo pot or dragonbreath chili) but something like a cat equivalent to blade flurry might be nice, even if that might contribute to some button bloat.

What if some cat abilities would be tweaked that they cleave if they crit (and only then)?

I feel like that'd be a bit much, but... Maybe make it so the cleave damage is something around 20% of the initial crit? Feral druids make for some very critty kitties so either making the damage it do be kinda weak, or giving it some sort of "Can only happen every X amount of seconds" mechanic would balance things out, more or less.

[Akos1896]

Honestly? Fair. I have fun optimising play and gaining aoe through unconventional means sometimes. (Like immo pot or dragonbreath chili) but something like a cat equivalent to blade flurry might be nice, even if that might contribute to some button bloat.

What if some cat abilities would be tweaked that they cleave if they crit (and only then)?

I feel like that'd be a bit much, but... Maybe make it so the cleave damage is something around 20% of the initial crit? Feral druids make for some very critty kitties so either making the damage it do be kinda weak, or giving it some sort of "Can only happen every X amount of seconds" mechanic would balance things out, more or less.

I see. Personally I'm not familiar with feral DPS, I only know that feral DPS players tend to complain about balance. Thx for the correction.

[Bigsmerf]

What if some cat abilities would be tweaked that they cleave if they crit (and only then)?

I feel like that'd be a bit much, but... Maybe make it so the cleave damage is something around 20% of the initial crit? Feral druids make for some very critty kitties so either making the damage it do be kinda weak, or giving it some sort of "Can only happen every X amount of seconds" mechanic would balance things out, more or less.

I see. Personally I'm not familiar with feral DPS, I only know that feral DPS players tend to complain about balance. Thx for the correction.

Fair 'nuff. Honestly? On paper at least- this is some quality big brain shit. Flavorful out of the box complex in comparison to the average "Uhh just gimme swipe pls :3" kind of suggestion. I like it, but some tweaking or more specification would go a long way to something both fun and balanced.

[Zulnam]

Druids should just have a normal out-of-combat ress like all other healer classes. This is such a minor QoL that will matter most where the game suffers anyway at this late stage: 5-man dungeons.

If you chose to do dungeons as a druid healer; get ready for extra stress. The only way to fix it is if you get a hybrid DPS.

Imagine, as a healer, gimping your group unless a specific type of DPS joins. And even then if they die once you're f*cked.

I mean, honestly.

[Akos1896]

Druids should just have a normal out-of-combat ress like all other healer classes. This is such a minor QoL that will matter most where the game suffers anyway at this late stage: 5-man dungeons.

If you chose to do dungeons as a druid healer; get ready for extra stress. The only way to fix it is if you get a hybrid DPS.

Imagine, as a healer, gimping your group unless a specific type of DPS joins. And even then if they die once you're f*cked.

I mean, honestly.

Yes
YESYESYESYES
Affirmative
+1

This

[Tomberry]

I don't understand the problem in giving cats a swipe. It has no impact on boss dps or PVP, but just makes trash a bit smoother. When you have 5 mobs and you can only hit one, you feel really useless as a cat.
And yes, frenzied regen can be nerfed a bit. Instead give us barkskin in form .

And for god's sake, make Rake somewhat useful.
It's a completely waste of energy at the moment.

[Templar85]

My idea

Swipes

Can cast in Bear and Cat form too


Reckless swipes (New talent)


Rank 1

Bear Swipe affect one more targets but 70% reduced damage on this 1 target,
Cat Swipe targets are gain bleed effect 30% of the damage caused over 12 seconds for the 3 nearest and 15% for the 2 additional targets. Bleed damage increased by attack power.

Rank 2

Bear Swipe affect two more targets but 50% reduced damage on these 2 targets
Cat Swipe targets are gain bleed effect 60% of the damage caused over 12 seconds for the 3 nearest and 30% for the 2 additional targets. Bleed damage increased by attack power.

Rank 3

Bear Swipe affect 3 more targets but 25% reduced damage on these 3 targets
Cat Swipe targets are gain bleed effect 95% of the damage caused over 12 seconds for the 3 nearest and 65% for the 2 additional targets. Bleed damage increased by attack power.


Rake

Rake the target causing 100% normal damage and leaves a bleed debuff on the target. Bleed damage Increased by Attack Power, additionally bleed debuff decreases target attack and casting speed by 1% stack up 5 times, lasts for 12 sec. Effect lvl 63 Boss type enemies too.

In case used from Prowl then increases the target cast time by 70% for 3 seconds. Does not effect lvl 63 Boss type enemies.

[Tomberry]

I like the idea of a bleeding swipe.
It has great damage/energy, but you can not spam it., so the damage is not over the top.
Just a little extra for trash.

Of course swipes should scale with AP, otherwise they will become useless at a certain point.

Rake should be 20-50% stronger than claw.
We don't need it on raid bosses, but for solo and dungeons it would be nice.

To not only cry for buffs:
Nerf frenzied regen to 5% and remove this stupid MCP from the game.