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How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:22 am
by Xudo
There are news about coming t4 raid. T4 is expected to have more stat budget than t3.
Current problem with t3 gear is that it is too strong in PvP against freshly leveled people. This is one of the reasons, why people play PvP much less than PvE with thousands people online. (other reason is humiliating ranking system, but this thread is not about it).
People also try to skip progress in t1-t2 raids because t3 gear is available and it is best among them all.
So the proposal is: PvE gear should offer stats useless in PvP.
How to implement it?
Imagine that you have baseline t0 staff which increases your spell damage by 50.
Now imagine that first t1 raid is full of elementals. It should reward gear, which help to beat this dungeon easier and in addition, it should grant players more power.
t1 should introduce staff with more stat budget. Assume it should grant 70 raw spell damage.
Assuming that first dungeon is filled with elementals and we have goal "gap in gear should not be too high", this baseline staff should grant 55 raw spell damage and 20 increased spell damage against elementals.
All players are humanoids, so this t1 staff will be only 5 spell damage more than t0 staff. In the same time, this staff allows to progress t1 raid easier.
Asuming that t1 raid is full of elementals, t2 full of dragonkins, t3 full of undead, there can be multiple gearing paths for each dungeon. All of them will be parallel and will not be too high comparing to PvP gear.
Also, gear from one dungeon will not nullify progress in other dungeon. You'll need different sets for elemental dungeon and for dragonkin dungeons.
UPD:
Why people will progress all those dungeons?
Last boss in each dungeon can hold non-set strong item with general-purpose stats.
For example MC Ragnaros offer pants with 27 int, 16 stamina, 20 spell damage, 1% spell crit.
Pants from BWL will be like 20 int, 12 stamina, 10 spell damage, 20 spell damage against dragonkin, 1% spell crit
Pants from Naxx will be like 21 int, 13 stamina, 12 spell damage, 25 spell damage against undead, 1% spell crit
PvP pants will be like 13 int, 20 stamina, 20 spell damage, 1% spell crit
In the same time, BWL offer good chest with general-purpose stats. While other dungeons add dungeon-specific power.
By combining items from every dungeon, you will get powerful set of items.
This set of items will be as strong as PvP gear which require comparable effort, like exalted with every pvp faction.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:45 am
by Grizb37
The jump from T2 > T3 was huge and even T2.5 > T3.
The issue the Devs will have is making T3.5 and T4 feel like upgrades without being too busted for Level 60 Vanilla.
Obviousuly we are at the bare maximum of power creep in phase 6, if T3-T4 is like going from T2 > T3 it's gonna be insane especially in PvP and will trivialise most content before naxx.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:00 am
by Xudo
Grizb37 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:45 am
if T3-T4 is like going from T2 > T3 it's gonna be insane especially in PvP and will trivialise most content before naxx.
Yes. This is an issue too. Molten Core will become 5-10man dungeon for people in t4 gear.
But if t4 will feature bonuses only against specific types of creatures (for example Giants or Beasts) then gear from t4 will not be overpowered against elementals. Molten Core will still be at-least-20 man dungeon.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:08 am
by Gantulga
Xudo wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:00 am
Yes. This is an issue too. Molten Core will become 5-10man dungeon for people in t4 gear.
It already is for people in T3 and it's the opposite of an issue.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:28 pm
by Quidoba
This is why the PVE server is more popular than the PVP server. PVP is only really competitive on seasonal servers. That just isn't what turtle wow is about.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:44 pm
by Drubarrymooer
My problem with this is it just flips the disparity in favor of PVP gear instead of PVE geared players in bg's. This was what they did TBC onward. They added resilience and then PVE players had to PVP to get the BIS gear for PVE.
I don't have a better solution either as nerfing the t3 gear would make Naxx clears harder than they already are, and most guilds aren't clearing sub 3 hour.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:59 am
by Burunduk
Too complicated.
It's easier to add pvp stats on pvp sets, maybe resilience or pvp power.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 4:18 am
by Xudo
Drubarrymooer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:44 pm
My problem with this is it just flips the disparity in favor of PVP gear instead of PVE geared players in bg's.
Can't agree with you on this.
Assuming that:
- t1 is tolerably stronger than t0
- you need approx 1 month to get full set of t0 power
- you need like half of the year to get full set of t1 power
then pvp gear should be the same in terms of effort
- friendly, honored reputational gear should be equal to t0 power (pvp0)
- revered, exalted reputational gear should be equal to t1 power (pvp1)
example of t0 staff with 50 spell power will be the same for t0 and pvp0
pvp1 staff will have 55 spell power
t1 staff will have 55 spell power and 20 spell power against elementals
further step is to make items different
t0 staff should grant 30 spell power and 1% hit
pvp0 staff should grant 30 spell power and 14 stamina
t1 staff should grant 35 spell power and 1% hit and 20 damage against elementals
pvp1 staff should grant 33 spell power and 16 stamina
This way, pve gear is same in terms of stat budget "against humanoids", but is stronger "against elementals". It also features stats "against +3 lvl" like hit, weapon skill and other stuff.
PvP gear is useless in PvE because of no hit, no weapon skill and more stamina instead of offensive stats
values are illustrational
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:23 pm
by Imonobor
I think that instead of nerfing PVE gear in PVP, we should buff PVP gear specifically in PVP. This could be done by introducing a new PVP-centric stat that increases damage done to players and/or decreases damage received from players. This shouldn't make PVE gear non-viable in PVP or vice-versa, just level the playing field a bit. It should be balanced so that a naxx-geared player and a PVP geared player perform about the same in PVP.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:29 pm
by Xudo
Imonobor wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:23 pm
I think that instead of nerfing PVE gear in PVP, we should buff PVP gear specifically in PVP. This could be done by introducing a new PVP-centric stat that increases damage done to players and/or decreases damage received from players. This shouldn't make PVE gear non-viable in PVP or vice-versa, just level the playing field a bit. It should be balanced so that a naxx-geared player and a PVP geared player perform about the same in PVP.
The problem is not only in t3 vs pvp gear. The problem also is new player vs old player difference.
In most modern pvp-like games you have approximately 50% winrate because of "gear" and "skill" matchmaking.
In WoW you have to suck 100% of the matches because your opponents are strong.
Thats why people stand afk in AV, because it is the most viable way to get PvP gear.
Also, I noticed that resilence was not very welcomed back in the days it was added.
Moreover, turtle devs added -% to get crit stat, which is exactly what resilence was doing in TBC.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:01 pm
by Inovatu
maybe TWoW creates new PVP Items on the same lvl as Tier Pieces?
Like Season 1,2,3 etc in Tbc
so if you wanna do pvp just farm that and problem solved, no crying for mimimi dont make PVE (T3,5 and T4) too overpowered
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm
by Quidoba
Resilience was hard to balance healer power around and can lead to the immortal healer problem.
I'd rather see PVP gear give utility advantages like run speed, extra stuns, extra interrupts, gap-closers, gap-openers, short-immunities, etc. That way PVE gear can still be about raw attrition, and PVP can be about skill play and mechanics advantages. Players with both, will have the biggest advantage, but players with PVE only won't necessarily be better off against players with only PVP gear. PVP gear won't be so irrelevant.
I don't know what you do about the new player vs. old player discrepancy. I think that's just a reality you have to live with on a forever server. Just be thankful this is a PVE server primarily, and that the PVP server is fresh (for now).
I feel like the Turtle wow team is against the concept of catch-up gear that doesn't come from raiding. So, new players who want to PVP will just have to accept their place in the food-chain, or try to join a guild that will carry them to end-game loot.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:16 pm
by Slashignore
how about they make the t4 on par with bwl gear BUT ever gear has some random stats like up to +20% but also down to -20%
that means people if they get the -20% might wanna go there again for a higher rolled item.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:47 pm
by Gantulga
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:16 pm
how about they make the t4 on par with bwl gear BUT ever gear has some random stats like up to +20% but also down to -20%
that means people if they get the -20% might wanna go there again for a higher rolled item.
Randomized gear is the last thing I want in a game like this. This isn't an ARPG where you farm heaps of gear by yourself. It's a MMO where you may get one piece every few weeks.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:19 pm
by Slashignore
Gantulga wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:47 pm
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:16 pm
how about they make the t4 on par with bwl gear BUT ever gear has some random stats like up to +20% but also down to -20%
that means people if they get the -20% might wanna go there again for a higher rolled item.
Randomized gear is the last thing I want in a game like this. This isn't an ARPG where you farm heaps of gear by yourself. It's a MMO where you may get one piece every few weeks.
never said you should farm heaps of gear your self ?!
how can it be a problem if our items gets random stats if it can counter super awesome t4 items in a much weaker world
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:41 pm
by Annoying
Quidoba wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm
I don't know what you do about the new player vs. old player discrepancy. I think that's just a reality you have to live with on a forever server. Just be thankful this is a PVE server primarily, and that the PVP server is fresh (for now).
A Gear Matching System perhaps. So new people get to play with and against other new people.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:57 pm
by Slashignore
Annoying wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:41 pm
Quidoba wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm
I don't know what you do about the new player vs. old player discrepancy. I think that's just a reality you have to live with on a forever server. Just be thankful this is a PVE server primarily, and that the PVP server is fresh (for now).
A Gear Matching System perhaps. So new people get to play with and against other new people.
no!!!!!!!!!!! i would stop playing in an instant if this came
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:19 pm
by Annoying
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:57 pm
no!!!!!!!!!!! i would stop playing in an instant if this came
Not that I really care but, why? You don't like fair matches where everyone gets to have fun on more equal terms?
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:10 pm
by Slashignore
what do you mean about fair matches ? thats a silly thing to say.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:55 am
by Annoying
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 11:10 pm
what do you mean about fair matches ? thats a silly thing to say.
Nice dodge Troll.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2024 4:58 am
by Xudo
Annoying wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:41 pm
Quidoba wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm
I don't know what you do about the new player vs. old player discrepancy. I think that's just a reality you have to live with on a forever server. Just be thankful this is a PVE server primarily, and that the PVP server is fresh (for now).
A Gear Matching System perhaps. So new people get to play with and against other new people.
Gear matching system usually comes with "skill" matching system.
50% winrate in modern pvp games is double edged thing. You still get your 50% even if you are good. When your skill is high, then system usually throws you to more geared players.
Quidoba wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm
I don't know what you do about the new player vs. old player discrepancy. I think that's just a reality you have to live with on a forever server. Just be thankful this is a PVE server primarily, and that the PVP server is fresh (for now).
Best thing that comes to my mind is to ban bwl, aq40 and naxx entirely on PvP server. If someone want to raid high tiers, then he is welcomed on PvE server.
Progress to t2 and later is the very reason why "fresh" servers are popular. They solve problem of old player vs new player disrepancy by wiping progress. If you want "forever" server, then you should not produce this disrepancy in the first place.
Quidoba wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm
So, new players who want to PVP will just have to accept their place in the food-chain, or try to join a guild that will carry them to end-game loot.
Why would new people even play pvp if they are carried to end-game loot?
Currently, gear is the only long-term reward from pvp. If you get carried, then you don't have reasons to play for long time.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 4:39 pm
by Sleeplust
Sounds like the system that was first implemented in TBC offering less useful property for PVE - resilience - to PVPers, which is a short-sighted test. They later completely divided PVE and PVP in WOD at level 100, making the situation more complicated and more like a disaster rather than a relief. Indeed, PVP and PVE players should be treated with equal standards, based on their personal inclination, more on PVP or PVE, or both. The Grandmarshal's Claymore, for instance, is actually a good PVE gear, which is a reward for PVP players, which isn't a problem. If a dividing system were online, the terrible situation in WOD would happen again, making the game over complex and short-lived.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:29 pm
by Zahnfee
how about no actual upgrade but instead we get more sets for more specs like a full t3 boomkin or full t3 fury warrior set basicly the shortcomings of havin tier sets flavoured to 1 specific set now we get tier set specificly designed for other specs without actual power creep!
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:30 pm
by Zahnfee
1 set for each spec at the power level of tier 3
wich would make 27 new sets in total
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:57 pm
by Koronisz
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:57 pm
Annoying wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:41 pm
Quidoba wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 6:06 pm
I don't know what you do about the new player vs. old player discrepancy. I think that's just a reality you have to live with on a forever server. Just be thankful this is a PVE server primarily, and that the PVP server is fresh (for now).
A Gear Matching System perhaps. So new people get to play with and against other new people.
no!!!!!!!!!!! i would stop playing in an instant if this came
Good riddance
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:45 pm
by Akos1896
I like the more sidegrade less upgrade idea but it has a problem. No matter how cautious devs are, 1-2 sets will become meta, the others would be forgotten. Having 12 T3 sets for a class to have variety would mean having 2 optimal ones and these classes would ignore instances where the other 10 sets spawn.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:35 pm
by Slashignore
Koronisz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:57 pm
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:57 pm
Annoying wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:41 pm
A Gear Matching System perhaps. So new people get to play with and against other new people.
no!!!!!!!!!!! i would stop playing in an instant if this came
Good riddance
good riddance?
you dont sounds like playing on telabim at all.
with your logic its fine people would stop playing for stupid changes.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:59 pm
by Koronisz
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:35 pm
Koronisz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:57 pm
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 7:57 pm
no!!!!!!!!!!! i would stop playing in an instant if this came
Good riddance
good riddance?
you dont sounds like playing on telabim at all.
with your logic its fine people would stop playing for stupid changes.
I play on Tel'Abim. You're dog shit and seriously annoying. The other guy suggested a way to provide fairer fights and you said you would quit over it lmao. You fit just in with the other shitters left on that server.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 11:14 pm
by Slashignore
Koronisz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:59 pm
Slashignore wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:35 pm
Koronisz wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 6:57 pm
Good riddance
good riddance?
you dont sounds like playing on telabim at all.
with your logic its fine people would stop playing for stupid changes.
I play on Tel'Abim. You're dog shit and seriously annoying. The other guy suggested a way to provide fairer fights and you said you would quit over it lmao. You fit just in with the other shitters left on that server.
aww who are you ingame so i can help you by not playing with you =)
also it seems like you dont know me if you say im dog shit :)
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:48 am
by Xudo
Zahnfee wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:29 pm
how about no actual upgrade but instead we get more sets for more specs like a full t3 boomkin or full t3 fury warrior set basicly the shortcomings of havin tier sets flavoured to 1 specific set now we get tier set specificly designed for other specs without actual power creep!
Do you mean that players will be able to get alternative sets from new raids and current naxx-t3 stays the same?
It can produce "Scarlet Monastery problem". Melees don't want to go Library and spell casters don't want to go Armory.
In your case, Protection Warriors wouldn't want to go (whatever new raid is coming) and Boomkins wouldn't want to go naxx.
Sleeplust wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 4:39 pm
Sounds like the system that was first implemented in TBC offering less useful property for PVE - resilience - to PVPers, which is a short-sighted test. They later completely divided PVE and PVP in WOD at level 100, making the situation more complicated and more like a disaster rather than a relief. Indeed, PVP and PVE players should be treated with equal standards, based on their personal inclination, more on PVP or PVE, or both. The Grandmarshal's Claymore, for instance, is actually a good PVE gear, which is a reward for PVP players, which isn't a problem. If a dividing system were online, the terrible situation in WOD would happen again, making the game over complex and short-lived.
First of all, my proposal aims to keeping difference between recently leveled and veteran 60 as small as possible. Preferably like t1 vs green gear.
I don't really want to divide PvE and PvP completely. Just reduce power creep in PvP.
PvE gear will be somewhat equal and useful on battlegrounds, but it shouldn't be OP like t3 now.
PvP gear will be less useful in PvE because it will lack that additional "vs creature type damage".
In the same time I want to offer players sense of progression during specific raid.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 9:48 am
by Zahnfee
Xudo wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:48 am
Zahnfee wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:29 pm
how about no actual upgrade but instead we get more sets for more specs like a full t3 boomkin or full t3 fury warrior set basicly the shortcomings of havin tier sets flavoured to 1 specific set now we get tier set specificly designed for other specs without actual power creep!
Do you mean that players will be able to get alternative sets from new raids and current naxx-t3 stays the same?
It can produce "Scarlet Monastery problem". Melees don't want to go Library and spell casters don't want to go Armory.
In your case, Protection Warriors wouldn't want to go (whatever new raid is coming) and Boomkins wouldn't want to go naxx.
Why? As in AQ 40 or Naxx u get drop of Tier Set Item and have to turn it in for some materials gathered at the raid and exchange it for your new Set Piece
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:34 am
by Calli
Always this pvp thing... Just make bg and arena only sets, few tiers, that you must equip for bg.
Craftable basic set and you can get upgrades. Finish this "omg one-shotted by t3" crap please. Leave pve in peace.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:31 pm
by Ragetto
Calli wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 10:34 am
Always this pvp thing... Just make bg and arena only sets, few tiers, that you must equip for bg.
Craftable basic set and you can get upgrades. Finish this "omg one-shotted by t3" crap please. Leave pve in peace.
PvP gear should be usable everywhere, even just for players who do no raiding/instancing and gear up through PvP (that's me). I don't want to be caught with my pants down in wPvP or the very rare times I do a raid/instance.
Or should we do the same for PvE gear that can only be used in PvE contexts? Come on.
We'll just need new PvP items with more stamina (or even resilience??) and less damage than t3-t4, that's all. It will make them weaker in PvE and stronger in PvP, which makes sense. It's simpler and fairer that way.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 1:48 pm
by Calli
Ragetto wrote: ↑Tue Mar 26, 2024 12:31 pm
Or should we do the same for PvE gear that can only be used in PvE contexts? Come on.
Yes, that is what am saying, if you go to battleground or arena you equip your pvp gear and your pve gear will be stripped of you. World pvp is another thing, you cannot balance that one, it will never be fair.
So when every player can gear equally for pvp doing pvp then we can speak about winning because of skill and not of gear difference.
Re: How to make new gear tier without OP items
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2024 4:25 pm
by Bigsmerf
Play game, get gear to play game more, get more gear from playing more game, repeat until have best gear.
Fine if best gear is best, but not too much good because then bad for other gear.