What I'd give for a taunt

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Kagarin1
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What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Kagarin1 » Wed Jan 10, 2024 3:03 am

My tank spec and set has been fined tuned, I was apart of the all shaman raid and have gotten to off tank in MC and have tanked every 5 man and 10 man so far, taunt swaps and aggro drop mechanics are my bane though :( Please class rep if you see this, push for taunt, please ;-;
Long live the glory days

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Augustfenix85
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Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Augustfenix85 » Wed Jan 10, 2024 3:55 am

I second this. It would help a lot
Duvall 60 Hunter
Velissa 35 Priest
Calmore 60 Shaman Tank
Malcore 45 Warlock
Splodax 28 Rogue
Ghostbc 40 Paladin
Hanami 60 Druid
Reidobosu 34 Warrior

Azuredrak0
Posts: 26

Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Azuredrak0 » Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:31 pm

Lack of taunt on a Shaman or Rogue is what relegates these classes to off-tank position. Rogues are worse off still since they can't do 100% avoidance anymore. Even in an off-tank position, any fight that needs a taunt, it's not possible.

I have a Naxx geared shaman Warden (tank). Wardens have 3 main problems, and the 1st one is really not what you guys think it would be.

1. Perception. Noone cares if your Grace of Air gives you 4% dodge and crit, everyone wants Windfury. You're a support class, so get in the kitchen and play your role. Most people don't care if you parse or tank. To every melee-capable character in the group, you will be a Windfury bot, and they will find someone else to tank if you can't (or unwilling) drop Windfury. I don't think there's a good solution to this, unless there was a talent linked to Windfury to grant the shaman additional tanking benefits.
Possible solution: modify an extra effect into Spirit Shield talent - Dropping Windfury totem grants +30% block for 10 secs. Attacks blocked generate an auto-attack (like Windfury only on block).

2. Lack of taunt - this excludes us from all fights where taunt is part of the mechanic. This is the main issues on this thread.
There are simple possible solutions to this (like an extra rank of taunting Earth Shock).
More interesting solution could replicate the paladin route via talents and be baked into Earth's Grasp talent in Elemental tree. Using Earth Shock while Stoneclaw is active would consume Stone Claw and cause target 50/100% chance to attack the shaman.

3. Weak threat - most would be surprised by this statement, but Rockbiter provides flat 60 TPS (threat per second) which doesn't scale with weapon or gear. Meaning at lower gearing bracket, your threat is amazing, and at higher gearing, it's crap compared to other tanks and DPS have to watch their threat or they'll simply strip it from you (even with Salvation in many cases).
Possible solution is to add another rank of Rockbiter with stronger effect, or convert the current effect to a scale with weapon damage.

Shamans have no AOE threat outside of Chain Lightning on pull. While some think that totems can AOE, the threat from totems doesn't transfer to shaman.

Drubarrymooer
Posts: 870

Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Drubarrymooer » Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:17 pm

Azuredrak0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:31 pm
3. Weak threat - most would be surprised by this statement, but Rockbiter provides flat 60 TPS (threat per second) which doesn't scale with weapon or gear. Meaning at lower gearing bracket, your threat is amazing, and at higher gearing, it's crap compared to other tanks and DPS have to watch their threat or they'll simply strip it from you (even with Salvation in many cases).
Possible solution is to add another rank of Rockbiter with stronger effect, or convert the current effect to a scale with weapon damage.
All valid points buddy. I don't really agree with the weak threat though. Shaman tank threat is fairly good. I think it could use a tiny bit of tweaking to give shaman slightly more burst threat... But not too much. You've held bosses and trash just fine in my experience. We also have shaman tanking bosses in Naxx and threat is rarely an issue.

Lack of taunt is the biggest issue. I also agree with the windfury slave but. Speccing into totems in enhancement should give some sort of wf totem buff to the shaman.

Jc473
Posts: 418

Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Jc473 » Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:50 pm

Azuredrak0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:31 pm
1. Perception. Noone cares if your Grace of Air gives you 4% dodge and crit, everyone wants Windfury. You're a support class, so get in the kitchen and play your role. Most people don't care if you parse or tank. To every melee-capable character in the group, you will be a Windfury bot, and they will find someone else to tank if you can't (or unwilling) drop Windfury. I don't think there's a good solution to this, unless there was a talent linked to Windfury to grant the shaman additional tanking benefits.
Possible solution: modify an extra effect into Spirit Shield talent - Dropping Windfury totem grants +30% block for 10 secs. Attacks blocked generate an auto-attack (like Windfury only on block).
Yeah, it always bugged me that Windfury is the 'be all end all' thing for melee DPS. I know this might be 'kicking the hornet's nest' but, what if they reduced the potency of the ability so other options (such as Grace of Air) can see more use? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe warriors benefits more from Windfury than rogues? So this might be a 'two birds with one stone' kind of thing which reigns in the absurb warrior DPS whilst allowing Shaman tanks to use another totem.

Azuredrak0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:31 pm
2. Lack of taunt - this excludes us from all fights where taunt is part of the mechanic. This is the main issues on this thread.
There are simple possible solutions to this (like an extra rank of taunting Earth Shock).
More interesting solution could replicate the paladin route via talents and be baked into Earth's Grasp talent in Elemental tree. Using Earth Shock while Stoneclaw is active would consume Stone Claw and cause target 50/100% chance to attack the shaman.
Yeah, as you say, the easiest solution is to augment Earth Shock to also act as a taunt. However, this might be considered a boring (and blank) design choice. Instead, I think your idea of a conditional taunt (Stone Claw totem + Earth Shock) is more interesting and probably the kind of thing TWoW would go for. Can I ask how 'clunky' this might be to use? I ask because Paladins often complain on the clunkiness of their 'taunt' capability.

Azuredrak0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:31 pm
Shamans have no AOE threat outside of Chain Lightning on pull. While some think that totems can AOE, the threat from totems doesn't transfer to shaman.
Whilst I'm a huge fan of having classes/specs having their defined strengths and weaknesses in a RPG game, I think it's incredibly odd and unintuitive that totems don't contribute to a Shaman's threat. This honestly feels like a bug or an oversight. If this was changed, perhaps this would be enough for Shamans to handle AoE tanking situations to some extent. They might not excel at it but at least they would have a chance at holding aggro.

Queenoona
Posts: 60

Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Queenoona » Fri Jan 12, 2024 8:19 pm

Drubarrymooer wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 4:17 pm
Azuredrak0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:31 pm
3. Weak threat - most would be surprised by this statement, but Rockbiter provides flat 60 TPS (threat per second) which doesn't scale with weapon or gear. Meaning at lower gearing bracket, your threat is amazing, and at higher gearing, it's crap compared to other tanks and DPS have to watch their threat or they'll simply strip it from you (even with Salvation in many cases).
Possible solution is to add another rank of Rockbiter with stronger effect, or convert the current effect to a scale with weapon damage.
All valid points buddy. I don't really agree with the weak threat though. Shaman tank threat is fairly good. I think it could use a tiny bit of tweaking to give shaman slightly more burst threat... But not too much. You've held bosses and trash just fine in my experience. We also have shaman tanking bosses in Naxx and threat is rarely an issue.
Since Shaman threat is flat it means that you can't do much to scale it. Thats a problem mostly when it comes to main tanking which i think is whats trying to be addressed primarily since shaman can mostly off tank fine.
A common problem I have with the Shaman class is how many aspects of its toolkit don't scale at all with the gear they have which feels like a poor design.

A shaman tank in Naxx gear should have way better threat than a shaman tank in MC gear. Sadly due to the way rockbiter threat works that's not really the case. it is better just not as good as it should be.
Azuredrak0 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 3:31 pm
There are simple possible solutions to this (like an extra rank of taunting Earth Shock).
More interesting solution could replicate the paladin route via talents and be baked into Earth's Grasp talent in Elemental tree. Using Earth Shock while Stoneclaw is active would consume Stone Claw and cause target 50/100% chance to attack the shaman.
I'm sure this could work, however I would rather them try to kill 2 birds with one stone with something like that. A talent that increases threat of Rockbiter or causes it to scale a bit better and in addition modifies Earth Shock to be a Taunt would be nice. Transform rockbiter into a kind of 'stance' effectively if you have that talent.

Azuredrak0
Posts: 26

Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Azuredrak0 » Fri Jan 12, 2024 9:35 pm

Creating taunt of Stoneclaw+Earth Shock is probably less clunky than paladin taunt, as the totems are now on their own cooldown. It could likely be macroed into a pretty simple taunt.

I don't hate the idea of a talent that both increased the threat gen of Rockbiter and at the same time caused Earth Shock to cause a taunt on some kind of internal cooldown. Maybe increase the cooldown on all shocks as part of same talent, but cause them all to generate a Paladin-like taunt effect. It would grant us a LOT of utility and allow us to paritipate in taunt fights.

Akos1896
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Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Akos1896 » Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:30 pm

I agree that the highest level of earth shock should work as a single target taunt.
If I remember well with talents shamans can reduce shock CD to 4 sec which is very decent for a taunting ability.
I'd add a melee whirlwinf effect to enhancement tree (or to shamans in general). Would make enh dps rotation more interesting and would help shamans with aoe threat (rockbiter - possibly a better threat-scale rockbiter + aoe damage to each nearby mobs).
I'd also consider buffing stoneclaw totem. Ideally can be a very useful tanking tool working as a target dummy but currently it has so few HP at higher levels that it can't fulfill it's role.

With this shamans would have very good single target taunt, aoe threat generation + an oh shít button in the form of stoneclaw.

Azuredrak0
Posts: 26

Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Azuredrak0 » Sat Jan 13, 2024 12:17 am

Akos1896 wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2024 11:30 pm
I agree that the highest level of earth shock should work as a single target taunt.
If I remember well with talents shamans can reduce shock CD to 4 sec which is very decent for a taunting ability.
I'd add a melee whirlwinf effect to enhancement tree (or to shamans in general). Would make enh dps rotation more interesting and would help shamans with aoe threat (rockbiter - possibly a better threat-scale rockbiter + aoe damage to each nearby mobs).
I'd also consider buffing stoneclaw totem. Ideally can be a very useful tanking tool working as a target dummy but currently it has so few HP at higher levels that it can't fulfill it's role.

With this shamans would have very good single target taunt, aoe threat generation + an oh shít button in the form of stoneclaw.
Where taunt is required in raid, it usually requires good control of boss facing. While having Stomeclaw do a true taunt would be cool, it could be complicated to properly place in exact spot where the boss needs to face, and it will likely survive one hit maximum.

Akos1896
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Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Akos1896 » Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:28 am

I'd imagine Stoneclaw as a utility for trash packs. If mobs start to run away you put down a stoneclaw, nearby mobs all gather here, totem survives for 1-2 sec and during that time you overtake threat with this theoretical whirlwind + rockbiter melee aoe.

Akos1896
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Re: What I'd give for a taunt

Post by Akos1896 » Sat Jan 13, 2024 8:43 am

What I'd further tweak is stoneclaw's HP. If we design it to withstand trash for 2-3 sec in Hateforge it is sueless in Naxx, if we design it to withstand trash in 2-3 sec in Naxx it's too OP in Hateforge.
I'd make Stoneclaw a totem which is immune to damage but automatically disappears let's say in 3-5 seconds. If we give it a decent CD, it can work.

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