BOTS

[Warrians]

When staff is busy to the point they can not police the environment (We all have to sleep, eat and work, and cheaters know that!) and also unwilling to recruit more help due to their own reasons, one good idea is to implement systems that allow the community to take care of its own environment to an extent.

Different versions of this idea have been implemented with success in other games, and became permanent assets (the anti cheat daemon comes to mind).

- implement a command to send a query to the target player, it should be on screen if possible as to prevent text scroll from disrupting it. The query would ask for a reply (also in command format) to makee the query cease. If the player fails to answer in time, they are disconnected with a very short ban and their activity is logged for staff to review at a later date. To prevent this from being used to grief an afk player, the query timer will not advance if the player is detected by the system as being afk (or maybe the timer will only tick if the character IS interacting with the environment rather than being still. )

If its impossible to stick the query to their face and if only the regular text window can be used, then have the query be repeated to the player at a regular interval along with the timer. A player that is already under antibot query can not be queried again during the process.

Once a target passes the anti bot query, they get a average duration buff preventing them from receiving the query again until its over.


Of course this idea will have holes to be fixed, tweaking the system on the go is part of any attempt to counter foul play in a game like this.

If this idea in not viable, then please consider another one (if you are just a turtle wow player like me, then add your own idea here). We all saw how just ONE attention h0e could stir nearly the whole server out of their routine. Think about it for a while.

[Suwuxiv]

Sounds like something that could be abused to torment real players. Big fat nope.

Just get more staff.

[Balake]

Botters have systems that alert them when the bot character is interacted with by another player so the real person can take over to solve it. Can also be used to grief, like in PvP. Just create a macro that for /report @target or whatever the command would be and use it in 1v1s to distract your opponent and restrict their vision.

[Warrians]

Botters have systems that alert them when the bot character is interacted with by another player so the real person can take over to solve it. Can also be used to grief, like in PvP. Just create a macro that for /report @target or whatever the command would be and use it in 1v1s to distract your opponent and restrict their vision.

Like i said of course it requires tweaking - Disabling it in bgs and in duels is one idea.

[Warrians]

Sounds like something that could be abused to torment real players. Big fat nope.

Just get more staff.

I spent half of the post trying to round ideas and options to counter player griefing. Not sure you read it whole.

Shall we hear some of your ideas then? I dont see that "just get more staff" thought being worked on. I couldnt even find a recruitment thread yet, or else id be there.

[Fizzeek]

I've recently had an orc come up to me and my brother in Tarren Mill accusing us of being bots, going so far as to try and call it out in world chat. Proceeded to follow us around and give us grief about "being so suspicious". Grilling us about why my brother's run animation wouldn't stop (common bug I've found on this server where your character never stops moving its legs, usually accompanied by being unable to loot or really do much else until you relog).


I don't know if I've ever run into ANY bots on this server, but I do know that I've run into people who think it's alright to harass others based on some stupid suspicion they had, and frankly I'd rather play with bots.

[Axoc]

There is absolutely some kind of bot hysteria going on right now. Only three characters that I'm aware of were suspected to be bots and they've been under investigation by the dev team. A delayed reaction (delayed in your opinion) from the dev team does not mean that they are ignoring the situation. Er has already said that the team is aware and is investigating.

TWoW is a multilingual server. Last time I checked, we have 8 different populations here that all have their own language. Across ~150-200 players. There's a very high chance that whoever you're speaking to doesn't speak English or doesn't care to struggle through it. Ignoring people who harass you is also a very legitimate technique both IRL and online, so if someone you're harassing is ignoring you, that doesn't immediately mean they're a bot.

Since the first bots were detected, I've seen (and I haven't even been on that much since the first ones were detected) 7 false reports similar to Fizzeek's and for 2 of those 7 characters, World chat seemed to unironically think that those 2 characters were bots whose owners had returned to their computers mid-harassment.

People ought to chill out. Let the staff handle it. Stop harassing people. Stop shilling the implementation of griefing techniques. If you think a character is a bot, record footage of them & send it to the staff in order to help them in their investigation.

[Suwuxiv]

I spent half of the post trying to round ideas and options to counter player griefing. Not sure you read it whole.

Shall we hear some of your ideas then? I dont see that "just get more staff" thought being worked on. I couldnt even find a recruitment thread yet, or else id be there.

Ya, sorry I didn't like any of them. They're all too invasive as far as solutions go.

When it comes to dealing with bots and cheating you have to walk a fine line so as not to hinder the playing experience of those who don't abuse such things. And things like pop-up confirmations that any old player could use on others to verify whether someone is a bot or not definitely falls under hindering the experience for me. Like really, just think about it for a moment..

Really the only solution that doesn't is more GM's. And while there may be a lack of a recruitment thread anywhere I have seen some people make their way up the ranks. Maybe speak directly with Torta about it?

[Balake]

Is it really a problem if it takes a little bit for the GMs to look at the ticket? When the botter gets banned they lose the character if they were grinding XP and it's possible to track their interaction history with other players so if they're moving their gold to their main it's possible to also ban that. That puts the botter back at square one and reverts all the harm they do to the server.

[Roxanneflowers]

The simple fact of the matter is that for some people ... Instant Gratification™ simply isn't fast enough.

There will always be Veruca Salt people in this world.

[Warrians]

I've recently had an orc come up to me and my brother in Tarren Mill accusing us of being bots, going so far as to try and call it out in world chat. Proceeded to follow us around and give us grief about "being so suspicious". Grilling us about why my brother's run animation wouldn't stop (common bug I've found on this server where your character never stops moving its legs, usually accompanied by being unable to loot or really do much else until you relog).


I don't know if I've ever run into ANY bots on this server, but I do know that I've run into people who think it's alright to harass others based on some stupid suspicion they had, and frankly I'd rather play with bots.

the legs not quit moving usually happen around me when i see people who are lagging.

Friend, if there were never a bot issue, this post wouldnt be here. Pleople must be oblivious to world chat if they didnt notice the botamageddon day. And yes im exageratting a bit on purpose. People would rather play with bots , until they ruin the economy. Is the guy gone? Probably. Will him be back? Whenever he wants to, and in waves. Nvm if you dont care, i just do.

[Balake]

This server is a huge timesink for almost no reward. The botters will figure out that this is not a server you wanna be botting in eventually and quit. I don't think botters are okay with grinding at x1 rates only to get their character banned.

[Steyr]

I think the whole thing about botting is hyped too much.

For me, people that buy stuff off AH - that is there at reduced prices DELIBERATELY to make the game easier for new players - and reposting it retardedly overpriced, just because they want "moar goldz", or because some addon tells them so, ruin the economy much more than someone that bots mining / cloth gathering to toss it for sale later.
There are some servers that have staff-added bots to fill auctions with random stuff to simulate a running economy, and even on turtle-wow forums there are threads with people asking for npc bots as hirelings. I honestly don't see how one or two botters can seriously ruin the server.

Any automated system to prevent hacks / botting is an extra load on the server and, honestly, in over 12 years of custom servers I have never seen any such system that would work at acceptable efficiency. If we implement any automatic system, prepare for increased lag, to be randomly booted when flying on a gryphon or charging through a hill.

IMO, people should make staff aware of possible botting and let them deal with it, because, as it has already been said, any community-based system can be used to disrupt legitimate player gameplay.

Having said that, increasing staff number does sound like a good idea, even if those are only staff members that deal with tickets / bots. But we should not forget that every staff member is a volunteer and is devoting his free time to sort out other people's problems. As soon as most individuals realize that being a GM doesn't manifest in swinging banhammer left and right, but rather doing boring "paper"-work, you are immediately left with lack of working hands.

[Kazgrim]

Perhaps some sort of flag players can place on one another. Flag the 'bot', and if the player doesn't respond in 30 minutes, he gets kicked. Being afk would not allow the player to be flagged.

[Warrians]

TWoW is a multilingual server. Last time I checked, we have 8 different populations here that all have their own language. Across ~150-200 players. There's a very high chance that whoever you're speaking to doesn't speak English or doesn't care to struggle through it. Ignoring people who harass you is also a very legitimate technique both IRL and online, so if someone you're harassing is ignoring you, that doesn't immediately mean they're a bot.

In my opinion, language is not nor will ever be an excuse. You need basic English in order to sign up for this server, like any other. You need basic English in order to PLAY, and even if you use a translated client, you need basic English to interact with the community and with item links. This is not a single player game, theres no getting around basic English, neiither here nor on the internet as a whole. A query doesnt need to be language specific, the core of the query could be a basic math equation like many other games use.

A person who can not identify, in the mid of a system message, a query for an equation they use on a daily basis ( "I am not a BOT!" systems) will also not be able to properly react to a system warning that the server will shut down for maintenance in 30 minutes (and its their own fault if they are caught in the mid of something in the meanwhile).

Systems like these are used everywhere by every game and their mothers. I dont see why not trying something similar. I know that emulation wont give you full control over the game engine, but maybe administration and the dev team could come to something close by using custom commands and then limiting who can use them.

[Warrians]

Perhaps some sort of flag players can place on one another. Flag the 'bot', and if the player doesn't respond in 30 minutes, he gets kicked. Being afk would not allow the player to be flagged.

Thank you. This is what i meant in the first post, i wanted to give one idea, no matter how bad, and then let the community give better ideas than mine.

[Warrians]

Idea number 2 :

"Glyph of Fair Play" (COST: 200 tokens or more )

This glyph allows the player to use the custom command mentioned before, OR any other idea that is made viable and approved by Staff.

This would force a player to devote the fruit of their HC playtime (Or their donations) to get access to the anti bot feature and then be able to actively aid in checking for a BOT suspect when staff is unavailable.

Anyone still crazy enough to spend tokens just to get a troll / griefing tool could be reported by the offended party and , after staff investigation, would lose the glyphs privileges. This would be added to the rules. Persistence in re-obtaining the glyph and grieving players with it would lead to a ban after confirmation.


If such an item were to be added, i know where i would spend my HC rewards.

Like any and every idea, of course it needs checking and tweaking. But please, i know you can do more than just saying NO and why it wont work. Add your idea here as well.

Manual intervention will never defeat automated action, unless those who constantly use a given forum get involved - Making an account is free, getting a new IP is even easier. We saw ONE bored guy deciding he wanted some lols and attention for a few hours of his AFK time. Soon, this server will make an active effort to attract more attention with the new patch, and we wont get just the fair players. In my experience, each botter can effortlessly maintain dozens of characters at once. If you have an idea on how to weed the problem while its still "insignificant", then please share. Thank you for your time.

[Balake]

We won't get just the fair players of course. But as I said before the non-fair players will quit when they realize they are wasting their time. There is no point in botting if they're going to get banned anyways. It does not matter if it happens immediately or takes days, everything they do can be easily reverted and they will have to try again from point 0 with a new IP.

[Roxanneflowers]

"Glyph of Fair Play" (COST: 200 tokens or more)

So ... Pay2Ban ...?

I strongly suspect this idea won't work out the way you think it might ...

[Warrians]

"Glyph of Fair Play" (COST: 200 tokens or more)

So ... Pay2Ban ...?

I strongly suspect this idea won't work out the way you think it might ...

i would gladly level a 60 hc character, or two or 3, just to prove worthy of the right to the feature. The point would be to create a strong limiter, since "grieving fair players with the tool" seems to be a concern. Well, a player who spent whole /played days working on their character wouldnt misuse the feature. A player who actually opened their wallet for the feature would hardly misuse it, and if done, like I said, the offended party would still have the proper channels to get the misuse undone.

[Warrians]

We won't get just the fair players of course. But as I said before the non-fair players will quit when they realize they are wasting their time. There is no point in botting if they're going to get banned anyways. It does not matter if it happens immediately or takes days, everything they do can be easily reverted and they will have to try again from point 0 with a new IP.

I worked the banhammer before for a few months. By protocol, i had to first confirm the issue, take screenshots, prove the offense, take more screenshots, sit the offender at gm islands jail, interrogate, take their version of the story (please try to imagine waiting for the story of a BOT. No, cheaters hardly come to check their bots unless they are online AND amused, getting out of AFK to check your bot kills the purpose of botting, which is to gather exp and mats while you are afk or even completely gone ) ; take more screenshots, get the whole player ID data and file everything in forum to justify a ban. On top of all that, the ban could still be disputed.

Regardless of the differences between protocol over there and here, the process takes a lot longer than it takes to make a new account.

Now this is personal and argueable, but, In my experience, when you take the candy off a cheater multiple times, they feel that is a challenge and decide to show you how easier and faster it is to double whatever ammount of BOTS you banned.

Can staff win that manually ? YEs, eventually the cheaters will get bored and leave. Is that a fast process? No, its time better spent taking care of other server issues, so eventually staff gives up first and then its back to happy cheating. How to manually win ???? More staff and more time invested per member. Is that the easier way ? Sorry but no.

If you automate ways for players who are always there (even taking turns with their diferent gaming hours) to flag a cheater, it turns every involved player into a helper, and it tightens the freedom of cheaters. Is that required? No, you guys dont have a "BOTOPOLIS" yet. But you might, once the server starts advertising its next release, once the online numbers start rolling up and once this server become a better and better candidate for cheating.

[Khazeig]

I think I’m of the opinion most people have, you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. Having people spend hard earned or bought tokens on a special boy bot police badge sounds like a terrible idea. If you think someone is a bot report it and move on with your day, what’s wrong with that system?

[Khazeig]

Sorry but I only skimmed your previous comment but after fully reading it I think you may have concocted a fictional bot world that only exists in your mind. Report and carry on Is my advice.

[Warrians]

I think I’m of the opinion most people have, you’re trying to solve a problem that doesn’t exist. Having people spend hard earned or bought tokens on a special boy bot police badge sounds like a terrible idea. If you think someone is a bot report it and move on with your day, what’s wrong with that system?

"terriblle" idea? Anyone FORCING YOU to take the glyph? No. It would be an offer for people willing to prove a commitment to the server. Nothing more. The ending result would just log activity to aid staff.


Whats wrong with that system ? I ve worked on the other end of it, and its terrible. It would be easier to list whats NOT wrong with that system.

Whats NOT wrong with that system - it requires staff to tripple check the botting, which is pretty nice in order to be fair with the possible "false positive" , if you disregard time required .

Whats wrong with that system - If you take into account the time and luck required for administration to chase a bot infestation.... It slows pretty much everything else that has to be done.

Like i said before if the FIRST idea is terrible, then by all means post better ideas. There is no need to reply this just to say "leave it as is", that is probably whats going to happen anyway.

This post was a lot longer before, i spent my time making note of how we had 3 more identified bots just yesterday and how one of them was previously flagged by most of the online community of that day as being a botter.

Id like to thank staff for taking action on it, but i insist that it could* be made more efficient by devising a way to empower willing members with the ability to log them out in a fair manner, so the server could be under watch at all times.

[Khazeig]

So... by your own admission the system works?

[Axoc]

The last thing I want is somebody with a personal problem coming after me and forcing me to log out because of their personal grudge. A not-insignificant portion of the playerbase here wishes lasher farming was nerfed, for example. I lasher farm. How could this "pay money to kick someone" badge system not be abused to prevent me from lasher farming, hunters from tribute farming, or someone from afk farming nodes or slow-spawning mobs like High Chief Winterfall? How is this badge idea not pay to win?
Hard no, especially because legitimate critiques have so far been met with out of touch replies that disregard constructive criticism instead of incorporating the legitimate critiques.

[Roxanneflowers]

Hard no, especially because legitimate critiques have so far been met with out of touch replies that disregard constructive criticism instead of incorporating the legitimate critiques.

+2

[Skalman]

I never understood why bots is a problem in games. You don't HAVE TO buy from them. You don't have to HAVE TO get envy of them having much stuff or gold. You can make your own rules, eg. "I'm going to get all stuff myself by playing the game." Sure, it takes time doing all yourself (occasionally with some help of a group of nice people), but are you in a rush? And lastely, this is NOT a competition who has the most money or the best gear. This is Turtle WoW. We play for fun!

[Balake]

I never understood why bots is a problem in games. You don't HAVE TO buy from them. You don't have to HAVE TO get envy of them having much stuff or gold. You can make your own rules, eg. "I'm going to get all stuff myself by playing the game." Sure, it takes time doing all yourself (occasionally with some help of a group of nice people), but are you in a rush? And lastely, this is NOT a competition who has the most money or the best gear. This is Turtle WoW. We play for fun!

Bots hurt the economy and make things harder for other players. Botting is a problem and bots must be banned, but it's not urgent enough to warrant some bot hunter shenanigans or intrusive reporting methods. Tickets might take some time to answer and that's fine. GMs can revert all the damage done (which is already not a lot cause turtle wow is slow paced and the botter is just wasting their time).

[Skalman]

Bots doesn't hurt any economy if you just ignore them, including ignore them on AH. Buying and selling on AH does not affect your game play if you ignore the AH all together! Just play the game and get (the) stuff, and vendor your loot. Buying (or selling) on the AH is not the path to happiness.
Complaining about bots is nothing else than being envy of other people - because you know how the game should be played, and others do it wrongly ... right?

[Torta]

The only way to get bot banned is to report it to GMs via ticket system. It takes a day or two for us to actually catch him online to verify fact of botting so tickets can stay up a bit long. However, sooner or later, they end up banned. Thank you.