Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

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Dwordis
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Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Dwordis » Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:20 am

Feral druids are by far the most unbalanced class in BGs and PvP in general for the following reasons:
  1. Frenzied Regeneration: 5 minute cool down for a full heal. This is basically a lay hands for druids that no other class gets. Lay hands and similar warrior defensive CDs are all unusable or on 30 minute cool downs compared this ability that can be used multiple times a BG.
  2. Offensive Capability: Changes to feral have caused bear druids to become far more tanky whilst also remaining extremely lethal. Imagine a player who can not only tank 4 people for longer than any other class but also kill one of those 4 people before dying.
  3. Blood Ring Leather set: Grossly overpowered for Druid tanks. Crit reduction is insane in pvp and leather gear was lacking in classic. Almost the entire Bloody Glad Leather set is BiS for Feral druid and will likely remain BiS for all phases. This is nuts.
Proposed nerfs / changes:
  1. Make Frenzied Regeneration unusable in BGs / Arena: The ability is far too broken and on such a low cooldown in comparison with similar abilities. Remove it from Arena and BGs. OR nerf it's cool down to 30 minutes.
  2. Nerf bear damage output in PvP: Reduce bear druids damage output by 10% or more due to its extremely overtuned damage output in conjunction with its survivability.
These two changes would make for a far greater Blood Ring and PvP experience on Tel'Abim.

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Manletow
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Manletow » Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:46 am

I keep hearing people whine about 'overpowered' T-WoW Feral Druids in PVP
I just don't get it. I have done hundreds of hours of PVP and not once have I thought of them as anything more than a 'moderate annoyance'.

They are C-Tier in PVP. Mediocre.

To be fair the specific ability 'Frenzied Regeneration' is somewhat overpowered in PVP...
but it doesn't matter because its restricted to Bear Form which is a worse version of a Warrior (which is the worst class in PVP btw).

Bear Forms damage is god awful WTF are u talking about...?
Especially if they are using FR as it depletes all rage...
And if they use FR you just ignore them so they don't get more rage therefore less healing...

In other words Bear Form druids are a non-threat and can be safely ignored.
They can't even interrupt spell casts (reliably).

(To be fair I am a Shaman w/ shield so I have good defense maybe they are more dangerous to low armor classes.)
Frost Mage is overpowered in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.

Dwordis
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Dwordis » Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:51 am

Manletow wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:46 am Bear Forms damage is god awful WTF are u talking about...?
Especially if they are using FR as it depletes all rage...
And if they use FR you just ignore them so they don't get more rage therefore less healing...
What rage is there to deplete? They spam Maul and their damage abilities then use regeneration. They dont deplete any rage because they're using it all to kill you. Ask any Tel'Abim player and they will tell you Bear druid is broken.

Grizb37
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Grizb37 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:58 am

Sounds like a post from a paladin one of the most broken classes in TWoW whining about feral. Bear crits for 500 on plate. Paladin crits 3k Holy Strike on plate. Also what retard carries on attacking a druid who popped frenzied regen.

Fixaren1
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Fixaren1 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:46 am

Manletow

I dont know what kind of gear or spec you are doing.
But I can guess elemental, sen alot of post from you that don't make sense otherwise.
I play many different classes and one is a bis bis feral and can tell you from my experience on twow. Fdruid remove half hp bar, if I don't flat out kill you within few seconds if you don't LIP. And if you put up a fight just go into bear and slay target with 1500 maul crits and do around the same DMG with the new insta attack. While also have around 11-12k armor ( not at PC ATM can't check my number, hp and so on)
And when it comes to shamans with equal gear.
Enhancement: Joke, don't do DMG and take more damage than anything, should add if you don't play elehancement ( spell DMG gear and shield)
Resto (shield): Can't kill, but can't kill feral either.
Elemental: anything with bwl + can kill you and impossible with naxx gear, overall try to avoid feels like a counter to Ferals.

Might aswell add that SL warlocks are impossible and shadow priest with lucky RNG with stuns can kill you.
Rogues / Warrior / enhancement flat out jokes. Can't do shit.
Mage mostly just a 2 shot, but a good mage can kite out ur mana if you don't have correct idol.
I play alliance and don't know about Paladins.
Feral Druids are easy S Teir vs most classes with same gear.

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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Drubarrymooer » Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:14 am

Dwordis wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:20 am Frenzied Regeneration: 5 minute cool down for a full heal. This is basically a lay hands for druids that no other class gets. Lay hands and similar warrior defensive CDs are all unusable or on 30 minute cool downs compared this ability that can be used multiple times a BG.
If a bear pops frenzied regen, run away. No rage = no heal. It's not anywhere close to LoH. Bear DPS is awful without MCP.

I highly recommend practicing with a friend. Also, some class matchups are just harder to counter than others. As a bear, I can be stun locked by rogues and cc'd by a good hunter.

Dwordis
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Dwordis » Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:16 am

Fixaren1 wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:46 am Feral Druids are easy S Teir vs most classes with same gear.
From the words of a feral player we finally get the truth, instead of yapping from the masses who know nothing. Thank you sir.

Volkyte
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Volkyte » Sat Dec 23, 2023 6:27 am

seems more a post from a frost mage unable to kite a feral due to powershifting kek

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Erhog
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Erhog » Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:27 am

If a bear pops frenzied regen, run away. No rage = no heal. It's not anywhere close to LoH. Bear DPS is awful without MCP.
Ah ok, sounds as a good strategy. Don't focus a druid coz he will pop Frenzied Regeneration and you'll need to not attack it following 10 seconds. Opponents team will just stay await and wait as well. Or not?

Also this suggestion very viable vs Flag Carrier druid - jsut don't attack him when he will pop it. Let him full HP regen and run away.

And in the last - this still aren't blocks druid from using auto-attacks to regen some of his rage and EACH point of rage is converted into 20hp+10% of stam.

I'd suggest making it as it was prior upgrade or increasing CD to 30 mins. Or add some additional negative effects on a druid while regeneration - stun or root+10 sec abilities lock(he can auto-attack in melee but unable to run or casts spells/shift forms) while he is regenerated. The last will be useful in PvE tanking where druid still generates aggro via healing and melee auto-attack but will make this skill more skill-impactful in PvP.

Dwordis
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Dwordis » Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:53 am

Erhog wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:27 am
If a bear pops frenzied regen, run away. No rage = no heal. It's not anywhere close to LoH. Bear DPS is awful without MCP.
Ah ok, sounds as a good strategy. Don't focus a druid coz he will pop Frenzied Regeneration and you'll need to not attack it following 10 seconds. Opponents team will just stay await and wait as well. Or not?

Also this suggestion very viable vs Flag Carrier druid - jsut don't attack him when he will pop it. Let him full HP regen and run away.
Yeah you're spposed to give the bear 10 seconds to do whatever he wants. Thats the best strat to combat the insane healing wary_turtle_head even with Mortal Strike applied they outheal any damage.

Dwordis
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Dwordis » Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:55 am

Erhog wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 7:27 am I'd suggest making it as it was prior upgrade or increasing CD to 30 mins.
+1

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Ataika
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Ataika » Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:36 am

He is right, frenzy regen heals for too much for loo little cooldown.
Had a laugh at these "just run away" comments.

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Erhog
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Erhog » Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:56 am

Frenzied Regeneration now is even more pwoerful than Diamond Flask prior nerf coz it's aren't occupy trinket slot and you don't need to swap to healig set prior usage. Hardly to understand why Flask was nerfed but this ability was upgraded to be even superior.

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Charanko
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Charanko » Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:45 am

Druids where newer weak in classic, dunnu why they needed all these buffs when the custom gear alone would make them very very storng
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Jc473
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Jc473 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:52 am

Charanko wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:45 am Druids where newer weak in classic, dunnu why they needed all these buffs when the custom gear alone would make them very very storng
Is that from a PvP perspective? If so, I definitely agree. The classes changes to Druids/Spriests/Paladins made them even stronger in PvP.

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Manletow
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Manletow » Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:28 pm

Alarming amounts of ice cold takes in this thread

No you dont even need to 'run away' from a Bear Druid as their damage is awful (especially when using FR) therefore they are not an immediate threat.
You simply ignore them entirely and kill their teammates (or do literally anything you feel like).

To do significant damage a Druid needs to go from Bear form --> Cat form (in this form they are a Glass Cannon) at which point you target them and kill them. Very simple PVP gameplay 101

The ONLY good point i've heard regarding them "being OP" is Flag Carrying as they were already a great FC and now they are better. And its true you cannot ignore a FC.

However only 1 person can Carry a Flag at a time so 90% of the time this matter is irrelevant.
But yes they can also defend 'Points' in AB quite well (last a long time and harass cappers).

As they have a couple niche to fill they are C-Tier. MAYBE the very bottom of B-Tier at BEST.

I'll bet a lot of these clowns are whining about losing to Feral in 1v1 "duels".
No serious PVPer gives a crap about 1v1 "duels" as Battlegrounds *actually offer rewards* and are all team-based.
Frost Mage is overpowered in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.

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Manletow
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Manletow » Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:31 pm

Charanko wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:45 am Druids where newer weak in classic, dunnu why they needed all these buffs
The Blizz developers themselves directly state that they intended for Druid to be "generally weak/inferior" in Vanilla as they have the most options of gameplay.
If they did every (or even most) roles at top levels of 'power/success' then literally no one would play any other class than druid.

They are fundamentally weak and this is by design.
Frost Mage is overpowered in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.

Frantsel
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Frantsel » Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:59 pm

Manletow wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:31 pm
Charanko wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 10:45 am Druids where newer weak in classic, dunnu why they needed all these buffs
The Blizz developers themselves directly state that they intended for Druid to be "generally weak/inferior" in Vanilla as they have the most options of gameplay.
If they did every (or even most) roles at top levels of 'power/success' then literally no one would play any other class than druid.

They are fundamentally weak and this is by design.
Yup. Because they are a hybrid class.

Hybrid classes should NEVER be as equal as specialised classes. They are so good because they can do every job.

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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Drubarrymooer » Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:08 pm

Ataika wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:36 am He is right, frenzy regen heals for too much for loo little cooldown.
Had a laugh at these "just run away" comments.
Yes...run away and kite for a few seconds. It gimps rage generation. Again, less rage = less healing done. I've had it happen in tournaments, wpvp, and BGs. It's nowhere close to LoH, a guaranteed full hp bar, or pally bubble, or prenerf diamond flask. With little to no rage, it doesn't heal that much. Even with enrage up, you'll regen about half your hp.
Frantsel wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:59 pm Yup. Because they are a hybrid class.

Hybrid classes should NEVER be as equal as specialised classes. They are so good because they can do every job.
Can you respec and swap gear mid combat to do every job? Warriors are BIS DPS and tank. Where's their "hybrid tax"?

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Erhog
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Erhog » Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:44 pm

`Yes...run away and kite for a few seconds.`

Yeah, run away from FC for a 10 seconds, nice try. With enrage and no damage it's half HP bar. For a mid geared druid it's free ~4k healing every 3 mins and we aren't even talking about druids ability to healing from restoration spells. Nice.

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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Drubarrymooer » Sat Dec 23, 2023 2:09 pm

Erhog wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:44 pm `Yes...run away and kite for a few seconds.`

Yeah, run away from FC for a 10 seconds, nice try. With enrage and no damage it's half HP bar. For a mid geared druid it's free ~4k healing every 3 mins and we aren't even talking about druids ability to healing from restoration spells. Nice.
A druid has to shift to use resto spells making them extremely vulnerable. Full BIS dps gear, self buffed, is about 6k hp. That's 3k. Now you're relying on 2 CDs being up at the same time. Non druids can chug a pot for 1.5-2k hp every 2 mins w/o having to make yourself vulnerable.

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Chudman123
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Chudman123 » Sat Dec 23, 2023 3:37 pm

Drubarrymooer wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:08 pm
Can you respec and swap gear mid combat to do every job? Warriors are BIS DPS and tank. Where's their "hybrid tax"?
Dude this is thread is in reference to pvp just because super geared warriors put up the most numbers vrs NPC raid bosses doesn't mean warrior is any way good at pvp on turtle compared to vanilla.

Hybrid classes can dps tank heal and support

Warrior can only do half that...they are not hybrid





All twow custom changes really screw over hoard rogues and warrior the most (look at druid and pally buffs)

Ele shaman is a counter to both druid and pally but I do feel bad for melees especially hoard.
-Panfusion (60 ele/resto shammy)

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Ataika
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Ataika » Sat Dec 23, 2023 6:03 pm

Drubarrymooer wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:08 pm
Ataika wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 9:36 am He is right, frenzy regen heals for too much for loo little cooldown.
Had a laugh at these "just run away" comments.
Yes...run away and kite for a few seconds. It gimps rage generation. Again, less rage = less healing done. I've had it happen in tournaments, wpvp, and BGs. It's nowhere close to LoH, a guaranteed full hp bar, or pally bubble, or prenerf diamond flask. With little to no rage, it doesn't heal that much. Even with enrage up, you'll regen about half your hp.
Frantsel wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 12:59 pm Yup. Because they are a hybrid class.

Hybrid classes should NEVER be as equal as specialised classes. They are so good because they can do every job.
Can you respec and swap gear mid combat to do every job? Warriors are BIS DPS and tank. Where's their "hybrid tax"?
Good suggestion pve boy. gonna try to run away from enemy FC frenzygenerating.
Hope it will work, thanks

Dwordis
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Dwordis » Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:01 pm

Ataika wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 6:03 pm Good suggestion pve boy. gonna try to run away from enemy FC frenzygenerating.
Hope it will work, thanks
WSG feral druid is def the most egregious. Just watched a feral druid run all the way from alliance ramp to horde tunnel, running through 10 enemy players with frenzied regen. Was I supposed to let him run all the way there without attacking him as people have suggested? Comedy.

Jc473
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Jc473 » Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:07 am

Dwordis wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:01 pm
Ataika wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 6:03 pm Good suggestion pve boy. gonna try to run away from enemy FC frenzygenerating.
Hope it will work, thanks
WSG feral druid is def the most egregious. Just watched a feral druid run all the way from alliance ramp to horde tunnel, running through 10 enemy players with frenzied regen. Was I supposed to let him run all the way there without attacking him as people have suggested? Comedy.
Indeed, like a Paladin bubble, Frenzied Rejuvenation effectively seems like an immunity to damage (assuming the Druid chooses to not spend the rage) which feels unengaging. However, a key difference is that you can still interact with the Druid, so my advice is to use CC. The Druid cannot shape shift or they forfeit the Frenzied Rejuvenation.

So, of course you’re not killing them during this CD but at least you should be able to severely hamper their movement unless they are getting dispels.

Quick question, can they shape shift out of Hamstring? I vaguely remember people having a good amount of success spamming Improved Hamstring on Druid FCs. Getting a 5 second immoblise was pretty nasty.

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Whitewolf76239
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Whitewolf76239 » Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:00 am

Frenzied regen is absolutely bonkers, at least 50% hp regen in a few seconds. And a well geared druid in BEAR form can 4 shot me, and I play a half T1 warlock.

Bandyc
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Bandyc » Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:20 am

when are people gonna realize turtle staff has absolutely no clue about game design? they cant make custom content, they cant balance or redesign. youre been brainwashed for years playing here. man I cant stand the idiotic player base patting their own backs constantly thinking theyre happy playing on a 300 pop realm. they fucking disgust me to the core, furry fucking losers all of them

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Bigsmerf » Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:56 am

Bandyc wrote: Sun Dec 24, 2023 5:20 am when are people gonna realize turtle staff has absolutely no clue about game design? they cant make custom content, they cant balance or redesign. youre been brainwashed for years playing here. man I cant stand the idiotic player base patting their own backs constantly thinking theyre happy playing on a 300 pop realm. they fucking disgust me to the core, furry fucking losers all of them
What a helpful, constructive and well articulated criticism. I'm sure the devs will see this and make sure to correct their mistakes. Thank you for contributing to our community.
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Erhog
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Erhog » Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:02 am

WSG feral druid is def the most egregious.
Just for everyknow who aren't have idea - you don't need to be a feral to use Frenzied Regeneration - it's not a talent skill but available for everyone including resto-FC spec.

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Twinking
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Twinking » Sun Dec 24, 2023 12:22 pm

Dwordis wrote: Sat Dec 23, 2023 1:20 am Feral druids are by far the most unbalanced class in BGs and PvP in general for the following reasons:
  1. Frenzied Regeneration: 5 minute cool down for a full heal. This is basically a lay hands for druids that no other class gets. Lay hands and similar warrior defensive CDs are all unusable or on 30 minute cool downs compared this ability that can be used multiple times a BG.
  2. Offensive Capability: Changes to feral have caused bear druids to become far more tanky whilst also remaining extremely lethal. Imagine a player who can not only tank 4 people for longer than any other class but also kill one of those 4 people before dying.
  3. Blood Ring Leather set: Grossly overpowered for Druid tanks. Crit reduction is insane in pvp and leather gear was lacking in classic. Almost the entire Bloody Glad Leather set is BiS for Feral druid and will likely remain BiS for all phases. This is nuts.
Proposed nerfs / changes:
  1. Make Frenzied Regeneration unusable in BGs / Arena: The ability is far too broken and on such a low cooldown in comparison with similar abilities. Remove it from Arena and BGs. OR nerf it's cool down to 30 minutes.
  2. Nerf bear damage output in PvP: Reduce bear druids damage output by 10% or more due to its extremely overtuned damage output in conjunction with its survivability.
These two changes would make for a far greater Blood Ring and PvP experience on Tel'Abim.
Another clown post with a sick fantasy that the druid is op...
People who don't play Druid dare to express their worthless opinions...

This is not the first time I have seen such kids claiming that they know how to balance vanilla better than the developers, without actually giving any arguments other than "Dudu is broken and needs a nerf"...

I suggest you record a video of your experience in pvp matches against a druid on Tel'Abim, and finally open everyone’s eyes to the insane power of the druid, something you will most likely never be able to do... wary_turtle_head

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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Xudo » Sun Dec 24, 2023 1:48 pm

People say that frenzied regeneration is OP while carrying the flag. This is not actually true.
Just slow down him. Yes, he can switch form to free from slow, but druid loses frenzied regen on form switch.
He also lose some mana. If you spam slow on druid FC, he will spend all his mana on shifting and run OOM eventually.
Warrior spamming hamstring can counter druid FC quite effectively. Lvl 1 frostbolts will do same job too.
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Holyhorrorr » Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:40 pm

Lets also not forget flash bomb - 10 second fear and if the druid does not have trinket or berserk ready they will eat damage the full 10 seconds... no other class has such an overpowered counter item.
P.s.: The fear of flash bomb is not being broken on any kind of damage and can NOT be dispelled either.

Yet you cry about druids? Sounds really like you just like to be superior to every class without putting any effort into learning how to play against them.

Dwordis
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Dwordis » Tue Dec 26, 2023 11:48 pm

bump...

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Mackylol
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Mackylol » Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:28 am

The only two points I agree with here:

* Frenzied heals for alot while being on a moderately short cooldown, it is about 35-40% without someone pounding on you.
* The Blood Ring set.. I would LOVE to see some of these pieces be spread out across the other BGs instead of stacking them all on one. And it is without a doubt BiS for both PvE and PvP.

The other points you mongrels talk about is a combination of engineering and consumables, aka preparation. Warlocks are far and beyond 10x stronger than a druid but thats apparently fine and paladins dishing out 3k-4k damage in a single go without the possibility to be resisted is also just fine.

WoW is a game of rock, paper, scissors.. and it always has been. You are probably playing a class that is hardcountered by a druid? An undergeared priest, rogue or warrior I am guessing?

Players in general are f'ing awful at this game so if you saw a druid running through 10 people while being focused, that my friend(s) he did NOT survive by the base class itself.

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Gantulga
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Re: Tel'Abim Nerf Feral Druids in PvP

Post by Gantulga » Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:52 am

Mackylol wrote: Wed Dec 27, 2023 12:28 am The only two points I agree with here:

* Frenzied heals for alot while being on a moderately short cooldown, it is about 35-40% without someone pounding on you.
* The Blood Ring set.. I would LOVE to see some of these pieces be spread out across the other BGs instead of stacking them all on one. And it is without a doubt BiS for both PvE and PvP.

The other points you mongrels talk about is a combination of engineering and consumables, aka preparation. Warlocks are far and beyond 10x stronger than a druid but thats apparently fine and paladins dishing out 3k-4k damage in a single go without the possibility to be resisted is also just fine.

WoW is a game of rock, paper, scissors.. and it always has been. You are probably playing a class that is hardcountered by a druid? An undergeared priest, rogue or warrior I am guessing?

Players in general are f'ing awful at this game so if you saw a druid running through 10 people while being focused, that my friend(s) he did NOT survive by the base class itself.
Idiotic take. There''s a difference between a hard counter (still room for counterplay) and a complete counter (no room for counterplay).
Original 1.12 druid hard counters rogue and warrior for example but there's still a counterplay window: catching them outside of bear form as they're forced to shift out to cast spells. On turtle that doesn't happen and they can just bulldoze you in bear form without ever becoming vulnerable.

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