Arcane (PVP Spec?) vs Frost (Broken Spec)

[Manletow]

NOTE: I am generally commenting on matters from a 'PVP perspective'. I am not a hardcore raider.

Fire is perfectly balanced (as all things should be):
Offers very high damage at cost of low survivability and low sustainability.

Arcane and Frost are perplexing and problematic respectively.

Arcane (IN THEORY/ATTEMPTED DESIGN):
(Generally) Weak damage but offers high sustainability + survivability.

This spec is infamously bizarre and I can see why it confounds people to this day.
It seems to be intended as the 'PVP' spec (like Arms is for Warrior or Ret is for Paladin).

It's supposed to offer good 'sustainability':
BUT ironically its two 'capstone/core' abilities are each on a 3 minute cooldown
SO Arcane is actually infamous for having terrible sustainability due to only being 'optimal/powerful' once every 3 minutes.
AND PVPers generally dont concern themselves with 'sustainability' anyway as resurrection is assured (and restores all HP/Mana).

It's supposed to offer good 'survivability'
BUT ironically 'Arcane Missiles' are AWFUL in PVP due to not being burst damage and being easily interruptible due to channeling time. If you can't swiftly kill people (or at least scare them away) you will be dying very often/quickly.

and 'Arcane Explosion' can only be (optimally) used while literally surrounded by enemies... who are naturally going to be killing you within seconds.

Frost (IN THEORY/ATTEMPTED DESIGN):
Weak damage but offers high survivability + crowd control & AOE.

This spec is supposed to have inferior damage as 'payment' for all the control and survivability

But ironically it gets 100% bonus damage from Frost Spells so it actually generally hits much harder than Arcane.
Yet its survivability is infamous. They are often literally unkillable (Ice Block(s).
Its AOE ability is also overpowered -- easily mopping up huge groups of enemies.
Its control is unmatched -- Freezing/Rooting/Slowing and such.

TL;DR:
Arcane is supposed to be 'the PVP spec' but is in reality merely a mediocre meme in PVP.
They should be made to be less reliant on the PoM/Pyroblast gimmick to be successful in PVP.

Frost Mage is overpowered in PVP (and PVE) so their 'bonus damage' should be nerfed from 100% -->50%.
Either that or nerf various other tools they have such as Ice Block.

[Ataika]

Mages (especially frost) are tough on TWoW due to dampen magic being bugged (negates too much)
Currently there is a ticket in bugtracker confirmed by developers that adresses mentioned issue, so i guess within some time frost spec will lose its power at least against dot components and channeled spells.

[Hyrag]

every specs should get 2 sides(pvp and pve)

arcane should be a good anti-spellcasters spec(pvp) and mana/utillity + alternative dmg dealer in frost/fire resistant encounters in pve.

fire should be a burst spec in pvp and fire dmg dealer and fire dmg support in pve

frost should be a control with stacking dmg mechanic spec in pvp and frost dmg dealer and frost dmg support in pve.

[Gantulga]

Mages (especially frost) are tough on TWoW due to dampen magic being bugged (negates too much)
Currently there is a ticket in bugtracker confirmed by developers that adresses mentioned issue, so i guess within some time frost spec will lose its power at least against dot components and channeled spells.

Both dot classes (warlock and spriest) are grossly overpowered in PvP so having mage be a bit stronger (still not enough to win) against them isn't a bad thing.
I wouldn't call mage overpowered at all, they're pretty nicely balanced if anything as their damage output is limited to shatter combos which puts them in melee range almost and requires cooldowns.

[Ataika]

Mages (especially frost) are tough on TWoW due to dampen magic being bugged (negates too much)
Currently there is a ticket in bugtracker confirmed by developers that adresses mentioned issue, so i guess within some time frost spec will lose its power at least against dot components and channeled spells.

Both dot classes (warlock and spriest) are grossly overpowered in PvP so having mage be a bit stronger (still not enough to win) against them isn't a bad thing.
I wouldn't call mage overpowered at all, they're pretty nicely balanced if anything as their damage output is limited to shatter combos which puts them in melee range almost and requires cooldowns.

Alliance has nearly zero warlocks in pvp.
Where are they overpowered, in duels where lock can switch pets to have best matchup ? Or with double sacrifice once per 15 minutes ?

[Gantulga]

Mages (especially frost) are tough on TWoW due to dampen magic being bugged (negates too much)
Currently there is a ticket in bugtracker confirmed by developers that adresses mentioned issue, so i guess within some time frost spec will lose its power at least against dot components and channeled spells.

Both dot classes (warlock and spriest) are grossly overpowered in PvP so having mage be a bit stronger (still not enough to win) against them isn't a bad thing.
I wouldn't call mage overpowered at all, they're pretty nicely balanced if anything as their damage output is limited to shatter combos which puts them in melee range almost and requires cooldowns.

Alliance has nearly zero warlocks in pvp.
Where are they overpowered, in duels where lock can switch pets to have best matchup ? Or with double sacrifice once per 15 minutes ?

Warlock is the the overall best caster for all aspects of PvP and also the better scaling one. SL warlock combines insane survivability with high sustained and burst damage once geared.

[Ataika]

Both dot classes (warlock and spriest) are grossly overpowered in PvP so having mage be a bit stronger (still not enough to win) against them isn't a bad thing.
I wouldn't call mage overpowered at all, they're pretty nicely balanced if anything as their damage output is limited to shatter combos which puts them in melee range almost and requires cooldowns.

Alliance has nearly zero warlocks in pvp.
Where are they overpowered, in duels where lock can switch pets to have best matchup ? Or with double sacrifice once per 15 minutes ?

Warlock is the the overall best caster for all aspects of PvP and also the better scaling one. SL warlock combines insane survivability with high sustained and burst damage once geared.

You have to google what burst damage is, its clearly not about SL locks and especially when you play horde because everything except Agony is constantly dispelled.

[Erhog]

Arcane is PvE spec for MC/BWL phase, Fire for AQ-Naxx, Frost/Elem for PvP.

[Erhog]

Alliance has nearly zero warlocks in pvp.
Where are they overpowered, in duels where lock can switch pets to have best matchup ? Or with double sacrifice once per 15 minutes ?

They are good vs Rogues and Druids but not too many PvP rogues around and druids gained full healing for a free and additional counter-fear in a feral spec. Warrior, Hunter and Paladins are also not a big issue for a warlocks as well.

For a mage it's hard to kill comparable warlock in PvP it's in favor of warlock but if we are speaking of arena - every mage is 2-block here so I'd say mages are better here due to burst damage and survivability which is needed in many matchups on arena.

Issue with a warlock here is that it still needs some practice while mage provides more mobility and much easier to start but hard to learn. And there is buffed shadow priest which provides the same playstyle as SL lock but you aren't need to control a pet and overall easier with less abilities to keep in mind and overall stronger in PvP vs any other class but lack some PvE value which could be issue for a people who are intersted in PvP as casual walking on BGs/arena but mainly focused on PvE.

[Imonobor]

I'm not a PVP-er, but lemme tell you the PVE side of things as a Mage main.

My mainspec is frost. It's just unmatched in damage, utility, survivability, AoE, CC. Especially when soloing or farming, frost barrier and the slow from your spells are irreplacable. Iceblock is a lifesaver. Frostbolt crits are insane.

My offspec is arcane. I really tried to love it, as I have loved it in TBC and even later expansions. I thought it was just an underdog spec that could shine with the right spec, gear and mindset. Alas, it's just incredibly underwhelming.
The damage is mediocre at best, arcane missiles are clunky to use in dungeons, cuz mobs die so fast before you finish your channel, wasting your mana and your alleged "sustain". The cooldowns are nice, but even with them, I couldn't reach my frost DPS. The brilliance aura is kind-of a meme when you calculate how much mp5 it actually gives. Arcane explosions are a mana sink and mean you have to get into the thick of mobs, meaning you get aggro more easily and get hit a lot. Getting hit a lot is bad for clothies without frost barrier. Mana shield is a meme, even if you waste your talent points on it.
But of all the worst is how boring it is to play. You're basically an arcane missile turret with occasional CDs and suicidal arcane explosion fits. You got 2 spells that are arcane and deal damage and they both feel bad to use.

I don't know how to fix it, but it would include adding more spells to it that could break the monotony. More procs to keep people from falling asleep while pressing one button over and over. More utility spells like spellsteal and invisibility that other specs don't have access to. Some kind of survivability tool like frost barrier, maybe buff mana shield so it's actually usable?

[Erhog]

My offspec is arcane. I really tried to love it, as I have loved it in TBC and even later expansions. I thought it was just an underdog spec that could shine with the right spec, gear and mindset. Alas, it's just incredibly underwhelming.
The damage is mediocre at best, arcane missiles are clunky to use in dungeons, cuz mobs die so fast before you finish your channel, wasting your mana and your alleged "sustain". The cooldowns are nice, but even with them, I couldn't reach my frost DPS. The brilliance aura is kind-of a meme when you calculate how much mp5 it actually gives. Arcane explosions are a mana sink and mean you have to get into the thick of mobs, meaning you get aggro more easily and get hit a lot. Getting hit a lot is bad for clothies without frost barrier. Mana shield is a meme, even if you waste your talent points on it.
But of all the worst is how boring it is to play. You're basically an arcane missile turret with occasional CDs and suicidal arcane explosion fits. You got 2 spells that are arcane and deal damage and they both feel bad to use.

You are playing it wrong. 31-0-20 build, main spell is frostbolt but key abilities are AP, PoM and other bonuses from Arcane. It's deals much more DPS than deep frost.

[Jc473]

You are playing it wrong. 31-0-20 build, main spell is frostbolt but key abilities are AP, PoM and other bonuses from Arcane. It's deals much more DPS than deep frost.

This is the core of issue. I absolutely agree with your statement which is the 31-0-20 build does way more damage than a Frost built. But, when these people say 'Arcane' spec, what they really mean is a spec where Arcane is the primary source of damage.

In Vanilla/Classic, the Arcane tree was always meant to offer utility and enhancement to the Fire/Frost schools of magic. TWoW attempted to make a pure Arcane damage spec more viable by; 1) increasing AM spell coefficient, 2) increasing crit damage and 3) allowing each Arcane Missile volley to proc Clearcasting. This has actually helped quite a bit in terms of being 'viable' (note, not optimal!).

[Jc473]

I'm not a PVP-er, but lemme tell you the PVE side of things as a Mage main.

My mainspec is frost. It's just unmatched in damage, utility, survivability, AoE, CC. Especially when soloing or farming, frost barrier and the slow from your spells are irreplacable. Iceblock is a lifesaver. Frostbolt crits are insane.

My offspec is arcane. I really tried to love it, as I have loved it in TBC and even later expansions. I thought it was just an underdog spec that could shine with the right spec, gear and mindset. Alas, it's just incredibly underwhelming.
The damage is mediocre at best, arcane missiles are clunky to use in dungeons, cuz mobs die so fast before you finish your channel, wasting your mana and your alleged "sustain". The cooldowns are nice, but even with them, I couldn't reach my frost DPS. The brilliance aura is kind-of a meme when you calculate how much mp5 it actually gives. Arcane explosions are a mana sink and mean you have to get into the thick of mobs, meaning you get aggro more easily and get hit a lot. Getting hit a lot is bad for clothies without frost barrier. Mana shield is a meme, even if you waste your talent points on it.
But of all the worst is how boring it is to play. You're basically an arcane missile turret with occasional CDs and suicidal arcane explosion fits. You got 2 spells that are arcane and deal damage and they both feel bad to use.

I don't know how to fix it, but it would include adding more spells to it that could break the monotony. More procs to keep people from falling asleep while pressing one button over and over. More utility spells like spellsteal and invisibility that other specs don't have access to. Some kind of survivability tool like frost barrier, maybe buff mana shield so it's actually usable?

Even though TWoW have actually buffed pure Arcane specs (i.e. focusing on delivering Arcane damage) into a viable state, I would prefer if they further tweaked them to provide more utility. I absolutely do think things like spellsteal and invisibility should be added but only exclusive to pure Arcane mages (i.e. deep Arcane talents).

I think they really should double down on making Arcane Mages have deep mana pools. If they do this, an Arcane Mage could actually use their mana as a first line of defence. To make it work, allow Mana Shield to absorb all types of damage and change the existing talent to improve the 'mana per damage' ratio to 1:1. To compensate, move it down the 5th row so the standard frost PvP specs would have to sacrifice Ice Barrier to get a more efficient Mana Shield.

So, to address the OP's comments, if you made these changes to Mana Shield and drastically improved the mana pool of Arcane Mages, this would increase their viability in PvP (more sustain/survability). It would also offer quite a different playstyle compared to Fire/Frost.

[Imonobor]

About mana shield, I think if they made it 1:1, blocking all damage types, they should also make it absorb only 50% of the damage. Your spells will not be pushed back by this damage while it holds.
So for example, if you get hit for 500 damage, 250 is burned from your mana and 250 from your health. This would make it way less punishing to use as a general precaution against damage, the way you would use frost barrier.
Because currently if you use it that way and something big hits you, you're left OOM at full health and are useless until you get some of your mana back. With this change you'd still have some mana left to keep fighting, even if you're a bit bruised, the healers can take care of it, or you can drink some tea with sugar to replenish both hp and mana.

About damaging spells, I know people don't like borrowing things from tbc, but Arcane Blast was exactly what the spec needed - a high cost, high damage burst that set arcane apart from the other specs as a playstyle.
Maybe we could re-imagine it to fit turtle's vision on arcane. It should be a slow-cast (3-4 secs), high-damage and high mana cost spell, so you have to use your clearcasting procs and on it if you want sustain, and the slow cast would synergize with PoM. Clearcasting could also shorten its cast time (by 1-2 sec) to further incentivise people to combine the two. Spamming it would increase cast time (1 sec per stack), mana cost (30% per stack) and damage (15% per stack).
Basically something like an arcane pyroblast with some weird effects.