My way to balance paladins on this server.

[Feomatar]

Paladins on this server a bit too strong in pvp yet a bit too weak in pve as damage dealers right?
So mine solution is:
1) remove holy strike entirely
2) Instead merged crusader strike from new blizz vanilla+ + holy debuff from turtle. Something like 6s cd not next swing but actual ability, 75% of weapon damage and restore 1% of mana to group and 2% of paladin's maximum mana.

This will make pala less mana hungry, less bursty, with better dps, basically more fair to play as, and to play against.
Updated post.

[Zvyrhol]

1) Delete holy strike.

And you accidently nerf paladin tank in raiding environment. When you propose change in one aspect of the game (let's say pvp), then your suggestion shouldn't change other roles if they are fine.

I shared my suggestion some time ago in the same topic so I will repost it here:

Code: Select all

Using either Holy Shock or Holy Strike shares 10 seconds cooldown on both spells.

Why this nerf seems to be perfect?

• It fixes current issue of high damage burst of paladin in PVP.

• It doesn't apply to PVE because dps usually don't spend 31 talent points in Holy tree.

• Effectively weakens paladin without removing Holy Strike which is desired spell for protadins and rets in raiding

• This change can be easily implemented by devs in vmangos.

[Feomatar]

1) Delete holy strike.

And you accidently nerf paladin tank in raiding environment. When you propose change in one aspect of the game (let's say pvp), then your suggestion shouldn't change other roles if they are fine.

I shared my suggestion some time ago in the same topic so I will repost it here:

Code: Select all

Using either Holy Shock or Holy Strike shares 10 seconds cooldown on both spells.

Why this nerf seems to be perfect?

• It fixes current issue of high damage burst of paladin in PVP.

• It doesn't apply to PVE because dps usually don't spend 31 talent points in Holy tree.

• Effectively weakens paladin without removing Holy Strike which is desired spell for protadins and rets in raiding

• This change can be easily implemented by devs in vmangos.

I had only ret in my mind when i typing my post. And yes, i kinda agreed that holy paladin is more retri than retri paladin on this server)) But i think holy strike intelf is kinda broken and unfun. next auto attack ability is hard to balance simply becuase it not cost gcd, and it gets for free instead of a talen in retri spec.
Prots can be fixed easilly, rework reckoning to proc frm any attack with 20% of chance but have 1 second internal cooldown, and prot will no longer needed holy strike for tanking.

[Gantulga]

Holy strike has to go. It is absolutely cancerous and uncalled for. There are many ways to fix prot.

[Zvyrhol]

Holy strike has to go. It is absolutely cancerous and uncalled for. There are many ways to fix prot.

Holy Strike is currently op indeed but tbh I enjoy this spell and I'm against its removal. It's especially good for building threat as protadin because all the physical damage is converted to Holy. Nerf of this spell is necessary though. In my opinion Holy Strike should have only one rank and cost % of base mana. It shouldn't deal extra damage - the way it should work is that it converts your next melee swing damage to holy and this is everything. Alternatively, moving Holy Strike to Protection talent tree can solve the problem.

[Glipo]

why just to not make holy stirke do a phisical damage its gonna imidetly reduse it damage in pvp and wont that badly affect pve coz ppl staking a surender + its make arp more use for rets xD

[Zvyrhol]

why just to not make holy stirke do a phisical damage its gonna imidetly reduse it damage in pvp and wont that badly affect pve coz ppl staking a surender + its make arp more use for rets xD

Maybe because it's Holy Strike, not Physical Strike.

[Chappinhas3000]

i don't agree with holy strike removal, since paladin has always been a auto attack heavy class in vanilla, i think a on next melee ability has good synergy. This being said it is a tad strong.
It should not have an added damage bonus and maybe it should instead deal less weapon damage percentage as holy damage and apply a crusader style debuff on the target, evidently crusader strike should be removed, maybe traded for a CD that matches the theme. Also it should not convert all other damage from the strike into holy damage since therein lays the potencial for madness

[Glipo]

why just to not make holy stirke do a phisical damage its gonna imidetly reduse it damage in pvp and wont that badly affect pve coz ppl staking a surender + its make arp more use for rets xD

Maybe because it's Holy Strike, not Physical Strike.

u know stormstrike is storm and it is a physical damage
windfury is a wind and its a pysical damage
i think here is alot of things doing damage not by name and focusing on making stuff only by right by lore will kill game coz mortal strike in this case must oneshot ppl
imagine what must do sinister strike by this logic

[Wrathweaver]

Please dont go further down the crusader strike debuff rabbit hole.
Judgement of the crusader basicly does not even work from lvl 6 and up, and that design is broken.
It makes all the paladin weapons from quests that you get throught lvling non relevant, and the seal is very useful solo but does nothing without proc.

Might as well do like retail would have done, remove seal of the crusader.....
It does worry me that people dont really give a damn about vanilla spells, and feel like they can just be removed from the game without even any protest.

I am all in for a new seal or spell for proc weapons, but i am very much against to continue the crusader strike debuff route.
Dont have anything against crusader strike, but it cannot come at the cost of classic paladin spells.

There must be other ways to solve paladin tanking than crusader strike without cooldown.

Its now been one year, and i dont know why the devs have not even adressed this yet.
They should at the very least say if they will bring it back or not.

[Erhog]

Paladins are fine. There is buffed shadow priests which already was one of the best classes for PvP without requiring any skill but there is they are buffed their mana regen and gave them another instant damage ability and you still whine about ret paladins while holy is the ebst spec.

[Nameis2]

Paladins on this server a bit too strong in pvp yet a bit too weak in pve as damage dealers right?
So mine solution is:
1) remove holy strike entirely
2) Instead merged crusader strike from new blizz vanilla+ + holy debuff from turtle. Something like 6s cd not next swing but actual ability, 75% of weapon damage and restore 1% of mana to group and 2% of paladin's maximum mana.

This will make pala less mana hungry, less bursty, with better dps, basically more fair to play as, and to play against.
Updated post.

I disagree with removing Holy Strike, instead make Holy Strike the Ret Pally lvl 40 talent in place of Repentence and change it's effect to.

Holy Strike
15 Yd Range
Instant
10 Seconds Cooldown
Requires Melee Weapon
Consecrates the caster's weapon and charges the target, inflicting 60% weapon damage as Holy Damage and gaining Crusader's Wrath equal to the amount of Crusader Strike on the Target; up to 3 max.

Crusader's Wrath increases all damage done by 4%/8%/12% and instantly restores the Paladin's mana by 5%/10%/15% and up to 10 party or raid members regeneration resources equal to 1%/2%/3% of their maximum mana/rage/energy per 5 sec for 15 sec.

This way this ability doesn't hit like a truck, but requires the player to be ret to get and it's useful for the party to restore resources and not just mana.

[Nameis2]

Please dont go further down the crusader strike debuff rabbit hole.
Judgement of the crusader basicly does not even work from lvl 6 and up, and that design is broken.
It makes all the paladin weapons from quests that you get throught lvling non relevant, and the seal is very useful solo but does nothing without proc.

Might as well do like retail would have done, remove seal of the crusader.....
It does worry me that people dont really give a damn about vanilla spells, and feel like they can just be removed from the game without even any protest.

I am all in for a new seal or spell for proc weapons, but i am very much against to continue the crusader strike debuff route.
Dont have anything against crusader strike, but it cannot come at the cost of classic paladin spells.

There must be other ways to solve paladin tanking than crusader strike without cooldown.

Its now been one year, and i dont know why the devs have not even adressed this yet.
They should at the very least say if they will bring it back or not.

Seal of the Crusader was not even suppose to be a paladin spell, Crusader Strike & Holy Strike was the original Paladin system that was scrapped due to the change in leading dev. The guys who I should not name, hated paladin because of EQ so they nerf pally and gave them seals & judgement and completely removed what paladin was intended to be. There is a reason why Crusader Strike was brought back later in wow but in a different from from the debuff version and later became the holy power thing. TWoW is just trying to bring back what paladin was intended to be, but the only thing they got wrong was trying to deviate from making ret full dmg tree since ret was the replacement for the combat tree that paladin had in the alpha.

[Wrathweaver]

Please dont go further down the crusader strike debuff rabbit hole.
Judgement of the crusader basicly does not even work from lvl 6 and up, and that design is broken.
It makes all the paladin weapons from quests that you get throught lvling non relevant, and the seal is very useful solo but does nothing without proc.

Might as well do like retail would have done, remove seal of the crusader.....
It does worry me that people dont really give a damn about vanilla spells, and feel like they can just be removed from the game without even any protest.

I am all in for a new seal or spell for proc weapons, but i am very much against to continue the crusader strike debuff route.
Dont have anything against crusader strike, but it cannot come at the cost of classic paladin spells.

There must be other ways to solve paladin tanking than crusader strike without cooldown.

Its now been one year, and i dont know why the devs have not even adressed this yet.
They should at the very least say if they will bring it back or not.

Seal of the Crusader was not even suppose to be a paladin spell, Crusader Strike & Holy Strike was the original Paladin system that was scrapped due to the change in leading dev. The guys who I should not name, hated paladin because of EQ so they nerf pally and gave them seals & judgement and completely removed what paladin was intended to be. There is a reason why Crusader Strike was brought back later in wow but in a different from from the debuff version and later became the holy power thing. TWoW is just trying to bring back what paladin was intended to be, but the only thing they got wrong was trying to deviate from making ret full dmg tree since ret was the replacement for the combat tree that paladin had in the alpha.

But why remove anything? Why cant we have crusader strike and judgement of the crusader? Thats my issue. Paladins have no seal rotation now and feels terrible and stale to play.

[Bittermens]

Holy strike has to go. It is absolutely cancerous and uncalled for. There are many ways to fix prot.

Yes, and is called Hand of Reckoning.

[Bittermens]

i don't agree with holy strike removal, since paladin has always been a auto attack heavy class in vanilla, i think a on next melee ability has good synergy. This being said it is a tad strong.
It should not have an added damage bonus and maybe it should instead deal less weapon damage percentage as holy damage and apply a crusader style debuff on the target, evidently crusader strike should be removed, maybe traded for a CD that matches the theme. Also it should not convert all other damage from the strike into holy damage since therein lays the potencial for madness

Paladins are discount Brownies(Warriors), which TBC Pre patch and Wrath fixed it, even SoD and other servers(Wall, Ascension and Epoch) did the same, but here is a abomination from a non existing idea of how the class was before being reworked at the last minute as shamans and feral druids.

A class that has a ton of spell power and STR gear but is tied to AP builds in vanilla because of one seal and its weapon speed scaling that is a abomination as weapon swinging and seal twisting itself to a unfinished class that is simply a gimped warrior.

the only way to do dps as a paladin in PVE is simply minmaxing into spelladin by finding a scythe, or APRET by ditching gear sets and stealing stuff from classes that needs it, since all paladin tier sets sucks for DPS and even healing, something i don't even trust the class devs of this server will fix it since T2 8/8 is terrible and doesnt even scale, with spell power as the bonuses themselves even more, and the only redeeming set is PVP or Dungeon Set 2, if you have the money and luck with the D1 head, chest and legs dropping of its bosses.

[Nameis2]

i don't agree with holy strike removal, since paladin has always been a auto attack heavy class in vanilla, i think a on next melee ability has good synergy. This being said it is a tad strong.
It should not have an added damage bonus and maybe it should instead deal less weapon damage percentage as holy damage and apply a crusader style debuff on the target, evidently crusader strike should be removed, maybe traded for a CD that matches the theme. Also it should not convert all other damage from the strike into holy damage since therein lays the potencial for madness

Paladins are discount Brownies(Warriors), which TBC Pre patch and Wrath fixed it, even SoD and other servers(Wall, Ascension and Epoch) did the same, but here is a abomination from a non existing idea of how the class was before being reworked at the last minute as shamans and feral druids.

Spot on, it's so stupid that the dev is trying to stick to a system that was made last minute because some EQ dudes hated Paladin. The original design behind Paladin was a strike system, a build-up and burst type similar to rogue; but when the dev team changed a little before launch everything changed.

You can see it in the launch patch notes: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.1.0#Paladin

Anyone who's played since the start as I did knows this, that this untested system was a bullsht thing put in place due to EQ BS. Even Shaman's got their stuff tested more than Paladin, and bullsht excuses were always used but as retail show us as they finally fix pally, that everything has been a bullsht excuse. And like stated, even blizz knows this that's why they even fix it in SoD.

[Armet]

My thoughts.
Remove holy strike.

Restore judgement of the crusader.

Level 8. New crusader strike. next melee Deals weapon damage plus an addional amount of holy damage(weapon damage portion is physical). 6 second cooldown.

Protection
Reckoning rework. Gives a 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% when damage is dealt to the paladin to grant an extra attack on your next swing.

Tier 6. Ardent defender. Reduces damage taken by the paladin and up to 4 group members within 30 yards by 50% for 10 seconds. 10 minute cooldown.

New tier 7 talent. Hammer of the righteous. Deals 50% weapon damage spread between the primary target and up to 4 other nearby enemies. All Damage dealt is considered holy damage. 3 second cooldown

Retribution.
Move Repentance to tier 5.

Tier 7. Divine storm. Deals weapon damage to up to 4 enemies within 8 yards. 10 second cooldown.

[Tendies]

Why this nerf seems to be perfect?

• It fixes current issue of high damage burst of paladin in PVP.

No it does not. Ret palas high burst/one shot too.

[Charanko]

Holy strike has to go. It is absolutely cancerous and uncalled for.

+1

[Brandwacht]

you can remove the bubble, at the same time remove the shamans windfury weapon and grounding totem put the last talent elem tree

[Valadorn]

Which faction has better winrate ?

[Brandwacht]

Which faction has better winrate ?

On Tel'abim, the horde wins 99% of WS, 80% AB, 50/50 AV battles. I can't say Blood ring, it depends on the composition of the teams and individual qualities. In general, the horde plays better, teamwork is better, equipment is better and individual qualities are better.

[Bittermens]

My thoughts.
Remove holy strike.

Restore judgement of the crusader.

Level 8. New crusader strike. next melee Deals weapon damage plus an addional amount of holy damage(weapon damage portion is physical). 6 second cooldown.

Protection
Reckoning rework. Gives a 2%/4%/6%/8%/10% when damage is dealt to the paladin to grant an extra attack on your next swing.

Tier 6. Ardent defender. Reduces damage taken by the paladin and up to 4 group members within 30 yards by 50% for 10 seconds. 10 minute cooldown.

New tier 7 talent. Hammer of the righteous. Deals 50% weapon damage spread between the primary target and up to 4 other nearby enemies. All Damage dealt is considered holy damage. 3 second cooldown

Retribution.
Move Repentance to tier 5.

Tier 7. Divine storm. Deals weapon damage to up to 4 enemies within 8 yards. 10 second cooldown.

Nah, give this Crusader Strike https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=4 ... der-strike

[Atreidon]

It might sound hard to believe but paladin has other specs than just Ret, If you change Holy Strike & Crusader strike you have to consider protection too, since he heavily relies on both. Just removing/replacing these abilities is a more significant change for prot than it is for ret.