What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

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Manletow
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Manletow » Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:39 pm

Fredmonroe wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:17 pm
Kevin Jordan was the original class designer of classic (it was a one-man team) and he says hybrids were meant to do 90-95% of the damage of the pure DPS classes.

There's 7 major TBC changes, and every single one of them leans into Shaman being a DPS spec.

When you are stating that the design was "meant to be sidelines supporter/caster" you are saying that is what Kevin Jordan intended, as he was the person who designed it all.
You speak very smugly and authoritatively on matters you are completely wrong about.

No, TBC changes were not "all solo DPS/melee focused". They were (objectively, factually, undeniably) designed to provide (yet even more) support to the Shamans teammates (and minorly boost the shamans own ability in some cases).

It's called "Enhancement" because it 'Enhances" the abilities/effectiveness of teammates as its primary function. It's really quite self-explanatory.

Note: In early Vanilla the Enhancement talent tree was even more Support/Totem based. It was revamped during late Vanilla.

No, it was not a "one man operation" lol. Just because he personally did the coding (or whatever) doesnt mean he was the 'ultimate authority'.

You seriously think that one guy was allowed absolute power over the (arguably most important aspect of the entire games design). Remarkably naive & foolish I must say.

Beyond simple common sense; take that '2005 WoW Class Panel' video I already mentioned (you could have easily found it via top Google search result in 5 seconds but whine for a link instead) wherein the class design choices were described as the result of "team brainstorming/discussion/debate".

If you are merely playing petty "technicality games" then yes you are perhaps correct on the notion that Shaman was "originally intended to be a melee DPS class". This is because it was said Shaman was (at its most early, primitive, doodle-on-scrap-paper level conception) imagined to be simply a "savage fighter with a spear".

This half-baked idea was swiftly (and wisely) thrown straight into the trash as it would make Shaman too similar to the existing Warrior class.
They quickly switched gears to make Shaman into a caster/support/medicine man class instead. This is the version of Shaman that wound up getting placed into the beta/alpha/final game.
in premade PvP warrior is pretty strong. premade comps on Elysium or Nost usually run a warrior.

TLDR edit: this is becuz Mortal Strike debuff is highly effective at reducing the survivability of enemy flag carriers

Enhancement offers nothing like this
Frankly I don't particularly concern myself with private-server, Discord-chatting, expert-filled Premade v Premade battles as this scenario is not representative of 99% of Turtle WoW PvP.

But yes I agree Mortal Strike can be useful in some niche scenarios.
However, one relatively minor gimmick does not make a class good overall.
(Also, not all Warriors have Mortal Strike. And it costs 30 rage. And you have to be within melee range to use it.)

It seems tho that you have enough sense to admit Warrior is a generally weak class in PVP. Thats good.

As for Enhancement in PVP: Yes they actually do have something(s) like that (reducing healing on an enemy/disrupting enemies abilities/free movement):

Its called Purge (a very cheap spell w/ 30 yard range that removes 2 HoTs/Absorb Shields/Buffs/etc), Earth Shock (to interrupt healing/spell casts + short silence), and Earthbind Totem is highly effective at impeding entire groups movement.

Sorry man but you are not half as smart/knowledgeable as you think you are and it's quite tedious explaining the countless ways in which you're either: totally wrong or mostly-wrong. At least you have enough of a brain to make arguments tho. A rare trait!
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

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Ghola
Posts: 200

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Ghola » Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:46 pm

Loved playing my support rogue in tbc putting expose armor up
and my support warrior putting up bloodfrenzy and battle shout
and my support priest giving everyone mana with vampiric embrace
and my support warlock giving healthstones and curses
and my support mage spellstealing and putting tables
and my support hunter misdirecting and giving ferocious inspiration
and my support paladin putting up judgement and blessings
and my support druid giving auras and debuffs

nearly every class was given support abilities in tbc, if they didn't already have them

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Manletow
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Manletow » Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:26 pm

Ghola wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:46 pm
and my support warlock giving healthstones and curses
and my support paladin putting up judgement and blessings
Yes Warlock has significant/noteworthy support/utility abilities (such as Summoning Portals) specifically to incentivize people to add them to groups over another higher DPS caster (such as a mage).

They are a Supportive DPS and if they are not providing that Support I (wisely) kick them from my group and replace them (swiftly) with a person who knows how to play their class effectively.

(However I would say they are a DPS firstly and support secondary.)

Yes Paladins were mainly intended to be a support / Buff-bitch class (which is why their powerful buffs only lasted for a mere 5 mins).
Their DPS was notoriously low (even a support class should be allowed higher DPS which is why Turtle WoW 'fixed' it).
(Tho they went somewhat overboard buffing paladins imo)

Classes can have Primary and Secondary functions. (Or even third and fourth functions!)
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Fredmonroe
Posts: 5

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Fredmonroe » Wed Oct 25, 2023 3:59 am

Manletow wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:39 pm

You speak very smugly and authoritatively on matters you are completely wrong about.
Jesus. I'm not the one starting my posts with "kek" or "funneh." And authoritatively? You're the one giving bare assertions about why you're right without even pretending to provide reasoning.

Unlike you, I actually went through the TBC changes and the reasoning of why it's melee DPS. I only provided a summary because you complained it was too long - now you're going to pretend that's speaking "authoritatively"? Come on man, surely you're better than that.
No, TBC changes were not "all solo DPS/melee focused". They were (objectively, factually, undeniably) designed to provide (yet even more) support to the Shamans teammates (and minorly boost the shamans own ability in some cases).
What the hell? I literally went over the TBC talent changes I was talking about.

Is giving shaman dual wield an ability which "objectively, factually, undeniably" is designed to "provide support to Shaman's teammates" and only "minorly boost the shaman's own abilities?" No, of course not, this is solo benefit for the shaman.

What about giving shaman +hit?

What about reducing shaman's threat from ONLY melee attacks?

What about halving the cooldown of, and more than halving the mana cost of, stormstrike?

What about giving shaman's a 60% reduction on their SHOCKS after a MELEE Crit?

What about giving them spellpower/healing based on their attack power, and reducing the cost of shocks?

What about giving them an ability that regenerates mana on melee hit with such amount based on attack power?

Just absurd that you could even claim these are designed to support others. And these are 7 of the 8 changes to enhance's talents! (or 6 of the 7 if you group dual wield and hit, even though they are two separate talents).

Yes, they do a shitty battleshout, though as I pointed out, it needs a melee crit, lasts no time, doesn't cost mana, and benefits from AP. But fine, let's give it to you. Of the 8 (or 7, if you want to count DW as one, when it's not), changes, ONLY 1 can even conceivably be called something "designed to support shaman's teammates" which only "minorly boosts the shaman's own abilities." THAT'S 1 OF 8!
It's called "Enhancement" because it 'Enhances" the abilities/effectiveness of teammates as its primary function. It's really quite self-explanatory.
And there it is. An argument so nuts that it would be bad faith for me to even ascribe it to you, and yet somehow, you seize it willingly. I guess Arms warrior is all about giving weapons to other classes. I guess discipline priest is all about spanking you because you've been a bad boy. I guess balance druid is all about tightrope walking. Like wtf?

Also, even if we say the name is the ultimate arbiter (which, and I cannot stress this enough, lmao), we're talking about a tree in which 46 of the points only help enhance, 4 help both enhance and other party members, and 2 are only for the benefit of others. It's obvious what's being enhanced here are your own abilities, rather than others.
Note: In early Vanilla the Enhancement talent tree was even more Support/Totem based. It was revamped during late Vanilla.
What? No it wasn't. Grace of air and strength of the earth were split, so that's a straight up nerf to your ability to support others. Defensive totems was stoneskin only, it didn't improve windwall or (crucially) grounding totem. There was no improved weapon totem at all. There was an extra grounding totem talent, although it only situationally help (really only provides a benefit against polymorph).

So this is yet another false statement asserted by you with no evidence that crumbles when somebody actually looks at it.
No, it was not a "one man operation" lol. Just because he personally did the coding (or whatever) doesnt mean he was the 'ultimate authority'.

You seriously think that one guy was allowed absolute power over the (arguably most important aspect of the entire games design). Remarkably naive & foolish I must say.

Beyond simple common sense; take that '2005 WoW Class Panel' video I already mentioned (you could have easily found it via top Google search result in 5 seconds but whine for a link instead) wherein the class design choices were described as the result of "team brainstorming/discussion/debate".
There's only 6 people credited as "game designers" in Vanilla's credits. Considering all the design that goes into WoW - dungeon design, raid design, zone design, how items and relatedly stats will work, what the level progression and rate will be, professions, PvP, reputation, and so on, believing that 1 of 6 would be tasked with designing the classes is really not that far-fetched at all.

As for "whining," lol. I was happy to go off of your statements about the video, and responded assuming you were right.

In fact, I did try looking for it. In the video I found, they state they wanted to make shaman a "mage-fighter, with the emphasis mage first, fighter second" in order to differentiate it from the warrior. Mage, of course, being a pure DPS class, so the actual statement is about shaman being a DPS that does hybrid damage - which meshes perfectly with the changes they got in TBC (seriously - attack power to spell power, melee crit to free shot, regenerate mana based on attack power, lower CD stormstrike which sets them up for a bonus damage earthshock) and wrath (which I've gone over with you twice now).

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume there's some other video you were quoting, which is why I went off your statement. It seems like you're mad that I didn't assume you either intentionally or incompetently misquoted this video in a way that benefits you - that is, you incorrectly stated "caster," as you want some ambiguity over it being a support, rather than stating mage, which is DPS.
If you are merely playing petty "technicality games" then yes you are perhaps correct on the notion that Shaman was "originally intended to be a melee DPS class". This is because it was said Shaman was (at its most early, primitive, doodle-on-scrap-paper level conception) imagined to be simply a "savage fighter with a spear".

This half-baked idea was swiftly (and wisely) thrown straight into the trash as it would make Shaman too similar to the existing Warrior class.
They quickly switched gears to make Shaman into a caster/support/medicine man class instead. This is the version of Shaman that wound up getting placed into the beta/alpha/final game.
If you're going off the class panel, they are talking about the shaman class generally, rather than enhancement in particular. I agree that there's a caster/support/medicine man shaman spec, we call it resto. That's why it has a whole bunch of healing bonuses. That's why it has increased totem range (which is more important than every other totem talent shamans have combined). That's why its capstone talent is, in fact, a totem. I see nowhere in there that they intended enhance to be a support class. Again, the closest description we get is "mage-fighter" which reads unabashedly DPS.
Frankly I don't particularly concern myself with private-server, Discord-chatting, expert-filled Premade v Premade battles as this scenario is not representative of 99% of Turtle WoW PvP.

But yes I agree Mortal Strike can be useful in some niche scenarios.
However, one relatively minor gimmick does not make a class good overall.
(Also, not all Warriors have Mortal Strike. And it costs 30 rage. And you have to be within melee range to use it.)

It seems tho that you have enough sense to admit Warrior is a generally weak class in PVP. Thats good.
I specifically asked what context we were talking about here. Not sure where all this hostility is coming from.

And you're free to weigh things differently. The "niche scenario" you are talking about is any serious group PvP where you're pushing for gear. I give this more weight because you are simply locked out of this playstyle if you are playing a shit class (e.g. enhancement shaman) and not if you're playing a warrior. Meanwhile, anybody can get a friend or two and roam around in WPVP if that's what they're after, no such class restriction.

Also, if you ever tried queueing as horde side on Nostalrius, Elysium, or even Classic WoW, there was like an 80% chance that you would run into this sort of premade comp.
As for Enhancement in PVP: Yes they actually do have something(s) like that (reducing healing on an enemy/disrupting enemies abilities/free movement):

Its called Purge (a very cheap spell w/ 30 yard range that removes 2 HoTs/Absorb Shields/Buffs/etc), Earth Shock (to interrupt healing/spell casts + short silence), and Earthbind Totem is highly effective at impeding entire groups movement.
I agree that purge is a good ability, although it's certainly nowhere near mortal-strike level. But you can accomplish the same thing with a priest, who can also defensively dispel as well. Or you can accomplish the same thing with a 30/0/21 shaman, who will actually have the mana pool to support spamming it.

You're unironically pointing to shaman's CC, which is widely accepted to be the WORST out of any class as an example of it being good at PvP. They are literally the only class that doesn't have a hard cc. Their earthbind totem is easily removed with a wand or pet or instacast fireblast or...

Sorry man but you are not half as smart/knowledgeable as you think you are and it's quite tedious explaining the countless ways in which you're either: totally wrong or mostly-wrong. At least you have enough of a brain to make arguments tho. A rare trait!
Ok bud. I see a touched a nerve by actually pointing out the myriad ways you were wrong.

Thefnom
Posts: 35

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Wed Oct 25, 2023 5:44 pm

Manletow wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:39 pm
Fredmonroe wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:17 pm
Kevin Jordan was the original class designer of classic (it was a one-man team) and he says hybrids were meant to do 90-95% of the damage of the pure DPS classes.

There's 7 major TBC changes, and every single one of them leans into Shaman being a DPS spec.

When you are stating that the design was "meant to be sidelines supporter/caster" you are saying that is what Kevin Jordan intended, as he was the person who designed it all.
You speak very smugly and authoritatively on matters you are completely wrong about.

No, TBC changes were not "all solo DPS/melee focused". They were (objectively, factually, undeniably) designed to provide (yet even more) support to the Shamans teammates (and minorly boost the shamans own ability in some cases).

It's called "Enhancement" because it 'Enhances" the abilities/effectiveness of teammates as its primary function. It's really quite self-explanatory.

Note: In early Vanilla the Enhancement talent tree was even more Support/Totem based. It was revamped during late Vanilla.

No, it was not a "one man operation" lol. Just because he personally did the coding (or whatever) doesnt mean he was the 'ultimate authority'.

You seriously think that one guy was allowed absolute power over the (arguably most important aspect of the entire games design). Remarkably naive & foolish I must say.

Beyond simple common sense; take that '2005 WoW Class Panel' video I already mentioned (you could have easily found it via top Google search result in 5 seconds but whine for a link instead) wherein the class design choices were described as the result of "team brainstorming/discussion/debate".

If you are merely playing petty "technicality games" then yes you are perhaps correct on the notion that Shaman was "originally intended to be a melee DPS class". This is because it was said Shaman was (at its most early, primitive, doodle-on-scrap-paper level conception) imagined to be simply a "savage fighter with a spear".

This half-baked idea was swiftly (and wisely) thrown straight into the trash as it would make Shaman too similar to the existing Warrior class.
They quickly switched gears to make Shaman into a caster/support/medicine man class instead. This is the version of Shaman that wound up getting placed into the beta/alpha/final game.
in premade PvP warrior is pretty strong. premade comps on Elysium or Nost usually run a warrior.

TLDR edit: this is becuz Mortal Strike debuff is highly effective at reducing the survivability of enemy flag carriers

Enhancement offers nothing like this
Frankly I don't particularly concern myself with private-server, Discord-chatting, expert-filled Premade v Premade battles as this scenario is not representative of 99% of Turtle WoW PvP.

But yes I agree Mortal Strike can be useful in some niche scenarios.
However, one relatively minor gimmick does not make a class good overall.
(Also, not all Warriors have Mortal Strike. And it costs 30 rage. And you have to be within melee range to use it.)

It seems tho that you have enough sense to admit Warrior is a generally weak class in PVP. Thats good.

As for Enhancement in PVP: Yes they actually do have something(s) like that (reducing healing on an enemy/disrupting enemies abilities/free movement):

Its called Purge (a very cheap spell w/ 30 yard range that removes 2 HoTs/Absorb Shields/Buffs/etc), Earth Shock (to interrupt healing/spell casts + short silence), and Earthbind Totem is highly effective at impeding entire groups movement.

Sorry man but you are not half as smart/knowledgeable as you think you are and it's quite tedious explaining the countless ways in which you're either: totally wrong or mostly-wrong. At least you have enough of a brain to make arguments tho. A rare trait!

Manletow

By now I feel like enough good evidence has been posted to write you off as having a too strong a bias to what Shaman should be according to you to not be willig to listen to perfectly reasonable arguments.

Fredmonroe is, based on my own knowledge and anecdotal evidence, on point.

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Jstansberry
Posts: 140

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:12 pm

Someone in this thread is obsessed with shaman tanking and is salty about being disproven in his claims that Blizzard intended enhancement to be a tank spec. So now he claims it's a support spec instead, out of spite.

What does support even mean to this man? Why would a shield wearing enhancement shaman be more useful in "supporting" than a 2hand enhancement shaman? And is the extra armor really as useful in pvp as he claims - where 80% of deaths are caused by magic damage? Or is it because he is trying to delegitimize the current enhancement spec by any means so he can have his half-baked tank spec take precedence? Where are all these support-focused abilities that shamans have over other classes? Are you supposed to place down your totems as enhancement and /cheer your teammates on to provide them moral support? If being able to heal, dispell, or provide buffs to teammates make Shaman a support class, then 6/9 classes are support classes.

That there is such a debate about the purpose and identity of a class and how it functions is likely proof that we could use some clarification as to what direction enhancement is taking on turtle.

Shammylover67
Posts: 46

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Shammylover67 » Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:56 am

Jstansberry wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:12 pm
Someone in this thread is obsessed with shaman tanking and is salty about being disproven in his claims that Blizzard intended enhancement to be a tank spec. So now he claims it's a support spec instead, out of spite.

What does support even mean to this man? Why would a shield wearing enhancement shaman be more useful in "supporting" than a 2hand enhancement shaman? And is the extra armor really as useful in pvp as he claims - where 80% of deaths are caused by magic damage? Or is it because he is trying to delegitimize the current enhancement spec by any means so he can have his half-baked tank spec take precedence? Where are all these support-focused abilities that shamans have over other classes? Are you supposed to place down your totems as enhancement and /cheer your teammates on to provide them moral support? If being able to heal, dispell, or provide buffs to teammates make Shaman a support class, then 6/9 classes are support classes.

That there is such a debate about the purpose and identity of a class and how it functions is likely proof that we could use some clarification as to what direction enhancement is taking on turtle.
Shaman Tank or 2h Melee Dps. Either way the problem has to be solved to give this spec some much needed love.

Fishi
Posts: 31

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Fishi » Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:50 am

0 dev response. I don't even feel anything at this point

Algeri420
Posts: 51

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Algeri420 » Thu Oct 26, 2023 12:31 pm

Fishi wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:50 am
0 dev response. I don't even feel anything at this point
If this were alliance problem, it would be solved really fast, Im gonna play shaman cuz Im not a bitch sissy (majority of paladin players are)

Shammylover67
Posts: 46

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Shammylover67 » Thu Oct 26, 2023 4:23 pm

Fishi wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 11:50 am
0 dev response. I don't even feel anything at this point
I saw a raid forming last night and it said “need ranged dps, warrior and wind fury”

Lol. Not even calling us shaman anymore. Simply “need wind fury”

Idontcareatall
Posts: 9

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Idontcareatall » Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:07 pm

There's not even a debate, shaman is the worst class in Classic, and even Turtle didn't do much to try to address this.

I mean, just need to compare what Paladins got versus what Shamans got. The changelog is not even close.

Paladins got all the tools they were lacking to address their weaknesses: a taunt, more mana (on block, on judgement), consecration baseline and costs less mana, seals remade/reworked, 2 new abilities that are god-tier, auto-attacking refreshes judgments, righteous fury became a toggleable mana-free ability etc etc, so many actually QoL and ups.

Meanwile, Shamans got most changes focused into tanking, while still not making it viable at all, just extremely weak and awkward. I mean, I'm fine with Shamans tanking - I guess - but they are relegated to the same spot paladins are in Classic, if not even worse: no taunt, no AoE, no mana sustainability, mail wearer. None of the changes are making enhance sham an actual playable tank option, nor did they provide new tools & abilities to do so. The new talents are either uninspired/boring, or just plain useless.

Worst of all, while paladins get their new tools to "have fun" quite early (crusader strike, holy strike, consec level 20), shamans can't even xp and have fun at the same time. Water shield that could help mitigate some mana issues during the xp phase to actually enjoy the game a bit, is unlocked at level 60, along the rest. Yeah sure, last patch gave the ability to put 4 totems at once, huge buff, but with what mana?

Thefnom
Posts: 35

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Fri Oct 27, 2023 3:06 pm

Idontcareatall wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:07 pm
There's not even a debate, shaman is the worst class in Classic, and even Turtle didn't do much to try to address this.

I mean, just need to compare what Paladins got versus what Shamans got. The changelog is not even close.

Paladins got all the tools they were lacking to address their weaknesses: a taunt, more mana (on block, on judgement), consecration baseline and costs less mana, seals remade/reworked, 2 new abilities that are god-tier, auto-attacking refreshes judgments, righteous fury became a toggleable mana-free ability etc etc, so many actually QoL and ups.

Meanwile, Shamans got most changes focused into tanking, while still not making it viable at all, just extremely weak and awkward. I mean, I'm fine with Shamans tanking - I guess - but they are relegated to the same spot paladins are in Classic, if not even worse: no taunt, no AoE, no mana sustainability, mail wearer. None of the changes are making enhance sham an actual playable tank option, nor did they provide new tools & abilities to do so. The new talents are either uninspired/boring, or just plain useless.

Worst of all, while paladins get their new tools to "have fun" quite early (crusader strike, holy strike, consec level 20), shamans can't even xp and have fun at the same time. Water shield that could help mitigate some mana issues during the xp phase to actually enjoy the game a bit, is unlocked at level 60, along the rest. Yeah sure, last patch gave the ability to put 4 totems at once, huge buff, but with what mana?
Yeah, looking at paladin makes the shaman class seem extra bleek. What could be..
Paladins have been given a ton of fun stuff and in turn made it one of the most played classes.

Twow team, please give us something. How does one go about to get an answer here? On the Discord one is referred to the forums, and here it seemingly is radio silence.

Shammylover67
Posts: 46

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Shammylover67 » Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:54 am

I really hope New Tier sets and itemization for shaman brings great changes…

Devs seriously take a look at Thunderhead and Bloodlust. What role are these spells meant for? It doesn’t help the shaman tank or melee Dps. Please make some small tweaks to fix melee shamans or tank shamans

Auroradance
Posts: 7

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Auroradance » Sun Oct 29, 2023 1:32 pm

+++++++

Thefnom
Posts: 35

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Sun Oct 29, 2023 4:29 pm

Shammylover67 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:54 am
I really hope New Tier sets and itemization for shaman brings great changes…

Devs seriously take a look at Thunderhead and Bloodlust. What role are these spells meant for? It doesn’t help the shaman tank or melee Dps. Please make some small tweaks to fix melee shamans or tank shamans
I'm afraid the gear changes won't improve the dumpster fire which is blizzard's vanilla wow Enhancement shaman. Interesting to see if T3 set is defensive or offensive (tank or DPS). Both versions of enhancement shaman lacks too much of everything to make any substantial amount of people play it.

Elemental will probably thrive, it is already working fine. Throwing a whole T3 set on it with set bonuses that are (assumingly) aimed to fill the gaps will make it 100% up there with other DPS.

Bob022
Posts: 105

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Bob022 » Sun Oct 29, 2023 6:15 pm

Idontcareatall wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2023 7:07 pm
Meanwile, Shamans got most changes focused into tanking, while still not making it viable at all, just extremely weak and awkward. I mean, I'm fine with Shamans tanking - I guess - but they are relegated to the same spot paladins are in Classic
I agree with your sentiment. The shaman on T-wow appears spread overly thin, trying to do everything, and in consequence not really being all that great at anything. It's the classic "hybriditis" sickness so often encountered in the genre, in this case a fairly severe example of it. The tank role for the shaman, specifically, appears to either be an incomplete implementation or a failing experiment.

In this game the Warrior, Mage, Priest, and Rogue had the earliest and largest amount of development. It shows. The classes that were kind of thrown together later and in some cases pushed live with band-aid skills and placeholder talents are starting from a weak spot to begin with. They're weaker still because the 1.12 client used by T-wow dates from the period where Blizzard was trying to relegate anyone with a heal spell to the healer role and nothing else. It's a bad starting point. I think T-WoW has, overall, done quality work in terms of salvaging what it can from that bad starting point, but the shaman definitely still wants tweaking.

Mekunekud
Posts: 67

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Mekunekud » Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:27 pm

Shamans issues won't change for Enhancement.
TWoWs devs are strangely dismissive of alot of the changes that TBC made that improved the class. Dual wield aside, since that was facilitated entirely by talents, stuff like giving shamans more mana efficiency through offense with the crit/mana talents, more ways of mana regen through Water Shield and Shamanistic Rage, less stat spread reliance through AP > SP conversion etc. There's a reason alot of those stats were added to shamans and its because shamans, even more so than Paladins ironically, are dependent on a vast array of stats and a core aspect of Vanilla is that the more stat types you are required to stack, the worse your class operates.
That's why Elemental Shamans work fine. They stack caster stats only.
Same as Resto,Holy and Prot paladins, who just stack the normal related stats and then make do.
Now look at Ret and Enhancement. Both need 6% melee hit, spell hit, spell damage, AP, spell crit, melee crit, weapon skill and then intellect on top of that. Ontop of those issues, shamans also need spell penetration, have a strike they can't benefit from in terms of a debuff due to Earth Shock's threat, and then the core issue of how expensive every action is for a shaman.
Without accepting the TBC changes were crucial to make Enhancement even remotely viable as a DPS/Support option, TWoW won't ever make it viable. There's simply too much focus on the "support" idea of the shaman when shamans have NEVER lacked as a support class and even a naked shaman with zero talents provides 90% of whatever support any specific tree does with the last 10% being either Bloodlust or Mana Tide.

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Karrados
Posts: 368

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Karrados » Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:42 pm

Considering the fact that they said "Resto Shaman is fine for now" while buffing every other Healer it shows you how they, the Team that is, view Shamans.
Restoration is pretty solid in vanilla, but its talent tree leaves a lot to be desired — something to keep in mind for the future.
Those are their exact words. Holy Priests, which is probably the most complete healing specc, received buffs. Think about that for a moment.

Now take a look at what they did with Enhancement. They half-assed some Tanking Talents and called it a day which leaves them in an awkward spot where they couldn't be considered either a DPS nor a Tank compared to others. If someone is going to come in here and say "THEIR ROLE IS SUPPORTING OTHERS, IT'S IN THE NAME - ENHANCEMENT, THEY ENHANCE OTHERS" then I will ask this: Where does it say that it's only meant to enhance others? Most of the Talents affect only you. I know it might be a crazy concept but "Enhancement" could also include yourself.

At the end of the day a Resto or Elemental can do the same what an Enhancer can do while also offering Healing or more DPS.

I don't really expect any future buffs for Shamans at that point - just more gimmicks.

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Ghola
Posts: 200

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Ghola » Sun Oct 29, 2023 9:14 pm

Mekunekud wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:27 pm
Shamans issues won't change for Enhancement.
TWoWs devs are strangely dismissive of alot of the changes that TBC made that improved the class. Dual wield aside, since that was facilitated entirely by talents, stuff like giving shamans more mana efficiency through offense with the crit/mana talents, more ways of mana regen through Water Shield and Shamanistic Rage, less stat spread reliance through AP > SP conversion etc. There's a reason alot of those stats were added to shamans and its because shamans, even more so than Paladins ironically, are dependent on a vast array of stats and a core aspect of Vanilla is that the more stat types you are required to stack, the worse your class operates.
That's why Elemental Shamans work fine. They stack caster stats only.
Same as Resto,Holy and Prot paladins, who just stack the normal related stats and then make do.
Now look at Ret and Enhancement. Both need 6% melee hit, spell hit, spell damage, AP, spell crit, melee crit, weapon skill and then intellect on top of that. Ontop of those issues, shamans also need spell penetration, have a strike they can't benefit from in terms of a debuff due to Earth Shock's threat, and then the core issue of how expensive every action is for a shaman.
Without accepting the TBC changes were crucial to make Enhancement even remotely viable as a DPS/Support option, TWoW won't ever make it viable. There's simply too much focus on the "support" idea of the shaman when shamans have NEVER lacked as a support class and even a naked shaman with zero talents provides 90% of whatever support any specific tree does with the last 10% being either Bloodlust or Mana Tide.
Ret's dont even need spell hit because their spell-based damage uses melee hit

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Charanko
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Charanko » Sun Oct 29, 2023 10:26 pm

Mekunekud wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2023 8:27 pm
Shamans issues won't change for Enhancement.
TWoWs devs are strangely dismissive of alot of the changes that TBC made that improved the class. Dual wield aside, since that was facilitated entirely by talents, stuff like giving shamans more mana efficiency through offense with the crit/mana talents, more ways of mana regen through Water Shield and Shamanistic Rage, less stat spread reliance through AP > SP conversion etc. There's a reason alot of those stats were added to shamans and its because shamans, even more so than Paladins ironically, are dependent on a vast array of stats and a core aspect of Vanilla is that the more stat types you are required to stack, the worse your class operates.
That's why Elemental Shamans work fine. They stack caster stats only.
Same as Resto,Holy and Prot paladins, who just stack the normal related stats and then make do.
Now look at Ret and Enhancement. Both need 6% melee hit, spell hit, spell damage, AP, spell crit, melee crit, weapon skill and then intellect on top of that. Ontop of those issues, shamans also need spell penetration, have a strike they can't benefit from in terms of a debuff due to Earth Shock's threat, and then the core issue of how expensive every action is for a shaman.
Without accepting the TBC changes were crucial to make Enhancement even remotely viable as a DPS/Support option, TWoW won't ever make it viable. There's simply too much focus on the "support" idea of the shaman when shamans have NEVER lacked as a support class and even a naked shaman with zero talents provides 90% of whatever support any specific tree does with the last 10% being either Bloodlust or Mana Tide.
For starters they need to give shaman +1 agi per lvl… +60 agi at 60 is not gamechanging but its a little somthing for starters
Last edited by Charanko on Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Witagrukag
Posts: 2

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Witagrukag » Wed Nov 01, 2023 9:29 pm

bump it. We need changes for shamans, because we LOVE to play shamans!

Shammylover67
Posts: 46

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Shammylover67 » Thu Nov 02, 2023 2:28 am

Hi all.. these are three quick adjustments that require very little change to the enhancement tree and are both lore appropriate/class appropriate.


- Rockbiter Weapon: change to also make rockbiter increase all threat generation by 15%, not just melee hits

- Thunderhead: Also transfers 20% of the targeted ally’s threat to the shaman. Helps with very high DPS party members. If lightning shield is cast on the shaman, provides 3% damage reduction from all sources.

- Guardian Totems: Add in 50% threat per rank of talent = all damage caused by fire totems directs threat to the shaman. This is a PvP talent already which will not affect any PvE or PVP shaman builds at all since threat does not matter in pvp.


These are such simple minor changes and they finally allow us to provide a solid tank experience for our party members if we so choose. We still have to fend for ourselves with mana conservation and mitigation. These ideas do NOT upset a single part of PVP or change any PVE shaman specs whatsoever.

Khancvetan
Posts: 8

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Khancvetan » Fri Nov 03, 2023 7:49 pm

Bump. I am newish to the server, just got my ench shammy to 60 and I realised how screwed I was.
And it's kind of sad that there is no answer from Turtle.... this has been top thread for the shammy forum for days now....

Sladyer
Posts: 13

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Sladyer » Sat Nov 04, 2023 10:14 am

go go go
lava lash healing rain and way of earth
now turtle dev know where to copy and paste
:)

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Jimyape
Posts: 7

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jimyape » Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:12 pm

Jstansberry wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2023 7:12 pm
Someone in this thread is obsessed with shaman tanking and is salty about being disproven in his claims that Blizzard intended enhancement to be a tank spec. So now he claims it's a support spec instead, out of spite.

What does support even mean to this man? Why would a shield wearing enhancement shaman be more useful in "supporting" than a 2hand enhancement shaman? And is the extra armor really as useful in pvp as he claims - where 80% of deaths are caused by magic damage? Or is it because he is trying to delegitimize the current enhancement spec by any means so he can have his half-baked tank spec take precedence? Where are all these support-focused abilities that shamans have over other classes? Are you supposed to place down your totems as enhancement and /cheer your teammates on to provide them moral support? If being able to heal, dispell, or provide buffs to teammates make Shaman a support class, then 6/9 classes are support classes.

That there is such a debate about the purpose and identity of a class and how it functions is likely proof that we could use some clarification as to what direction enhancement is taking on turtle.
Thats why even Blizzard adds shaman tanking to classic now with Season of Discovery, right? LMAO didnt age well bro...

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Jstansberry
Posts: 140

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:37 pm

Jimyape wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:12 pm

Thats why even Blizzard adds shaman tanking to classic now with Season of Discovery, right? LMAO didnt age well bro...
Maybe I'm interpreting something wrong about SoD, but isn't the rune system going to allow literally every class to tank?

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Karrados
Posts: 368

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Karrados » Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:20 pm

Jstansberry wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:37 pm
Jimyape wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:12 pm

Thats why even Blizzard adds shaman tanking to classic now with Season of Discovery, right? LMAO didnt age well bro...
Maybe I'm interpreting something wrong about SoD, but isn't the rune system going to allow literally every class to tank?
No. The new changes are Shaman Tank (Rockbiter Warden), Warlock Tank (Demon form) and Mage Healer (Time-shenanigans)

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Jstansberry
Posts: 140

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Mon Nov 06, 2023 10:38 pm

Looking into it, they are also adding warlock and rogue tanks as well as mage healers - that's just the tip of the iceberg. Changes don't seem to correlate at all with what the original intent of the class design was for vanilla wow at all. Not that I dislike that concept, but if the argument is that Turtle is finishing Blizzard's unfinished/unpolished work from vanilla then shaman tank still doesn't make sense as a priority. Rune system will also likely make it so that most classes can do any role effectively with the right build, which is cool but also will make it a much different game. Looks more like Path of Exile than it does WoW.

I also find it very funny that Blizzard's shaman tank for SoD is implemented almost exactly the same as how Duskhaven did it.

Thefnom
Posts: 35

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:24 pm

Bummmppp

Auroradance
Posts: 7

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Auroradance » Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:55 am

i think the designers are playing this game as a paladin,they know nothing about shaman,they make paladin very good,and leave us weak shaman

Alfonso
Posts: 48

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Alfonso » Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:54 am

Where is the evidence that Shamans are weak?

They are the most horde played Class. All the comparing of an A Class with an S Class (Paloldin) is not helping

40 man Raids want at least 4-6 Shamans.

Is a Hybrid Class meant to be a Warrior+Mage+Priest, just grab your Goblin device and done?

"TBC fix" to give every spec a deep talent that is so OP for Raiding, that you want all specs in a 25 man.

That is a cheap trick. You give it to everyone → You just made the content easier once more → Every time you ask for that, you ask for nerfing Boss fights in essence.

All Topics that ask for a Buff but don't say how it has to be compensated have to be ignored.

So you want all that. What should we give away in return?

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Karrados
Posts: 368

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Karrados » Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:58 am

Alfonso wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2023 11:54 am
Where is the evidence that Shamans are weak?

They are the most horde played Class. All the comparing of an A Class with an S Class (Paloldin) is not helping

40 man Raids want at least 4-6 Shamans.

Is a Hybrid Class meant to be a Warrior+Mage+Priest, just grab your Goblin device and done?

"TBC fix" to give every spec a deep talent that is so OP for Raiding, that you want all specs in a 25 man.

That is a cheap trick. You give it to everyone → You just made the content easier once more → Every time you ask for that, you ask for nerfing Boss fights in essence.

All Topics that ask for a Buff but don't say how it has to be compensated have to be ignored.

So you want all that. What should we give away in return?
Excuse me? According to the last census that I saw regarding class spread from a month ago the # of Shamans was at 8% while Paladins were at 15 or 16% and those are both faction exclusive.

There is no way Shaman is the "Most horde played class" if it's only 8%, not if Warriors are a thing.

Witagrukag
Posts: 2

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Witagrukag » Thu Nov 09, 2023 1:19 pm

If took away totems from shamans, so we get very weak heal-class. elem and ench specs will be ULTRA weak and unplayable Devs dont play horde and dont play shamans, we all see that, but if not enought exp for changes - we all can help, even that thread can help!
just don't be silent

Hairycleavage
Posts: 1

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Hairycleavage » Thu Nov 09, 2023 4:04 pm

I came back from a longer pause and it absolutely struck me how bad the shaman class is right now when I pulled up my low lvl paladin, as the alliance equivalent, for a spin of leveling. Absolutely sweet syngeries between crusader strike, holy strike and seal of light, from the absolute earliest levels on, massive burst in pvp. You can now actually level a paladin without enduring absolute pain. Meanwhile the blessings and judgements are WAY better support wise than anything the shaman has to offer besides wf.
The shaman on the other side got some gimmicks to use at level 60 and absolutely useless quest reward spells. Literally just mana waste. So you can you use water and earthshielt when you wont be outside dungeons anyway because who the fuck goes seriously grinding anything with a shaman at 60? Takes less time to just level up a mage on the side. The support benefits of a shaman are reduced to windfury and tremor totem. The complete rest of the kit is also just gimmicks and since most totems wont work raidwide its really nothing mentionable here. Leveling wise, shamans obviously didnt even get dual wield and you still have to skill stormstrike which you wont use because it drains your mana mercilessly. Oh and you also cant skill resto for leveling purposes. Not that the resto tree isnt offering anything usefull after 20 points, especially the manatide totem STILL having a laughably fixed amount of mana restored instead of a percentage.

So the alliance support class now has better solo play, better pvp, better healing besides shaman spamming chainheal in raids and way, way, way better ret dps, oh and before I forget it, paladins can also actually tank.

I really regret spending time leveling a shaman past 30 because the class right now is literally just a mobile WF chainheal post standing around in a raid. On a custom server that even buffed mages - of all vanilla options to do so.

N3olitic2023
Posts: 5

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by N3olitic2023 » Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:25 am

Bump!
Enhancement shaman

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