What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Thefnom
Posts: 35

What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Tue Oct 10, 2023 7:39 pm

Hello!

This question is aimed to the Turtle team or anyone with insight enough to answer the question. And as I do not know where else to post it, the shaman forum thead it is.

Background:
As the discussion on how to improve shamans comes up on the discord every once in a while where some real good ideas are tossed around, it would be nice to be able to point towards a solid statement so that the channels aren't flooded with fruitless discussions. The T-wow statement* on the HP holds true to this day, and I believe (as was done for hunters), there are fixes that can improve a class tremendously.
*
Elemental and Enhancement both have struggles in PvE that can be addressed somewhat easily. Restoration is pretty solid in vanilla, but its talent tree leaves a lot to be desired — something to keep in mind for the future.
The question:
Are there any intentions of "fixing" shamans more solidly with regards to what is stated on the HP; are there any on-going plans that are aimed to change the current state of shamans? What is the PoV from the Twow team regarding the statement, is it deemed to be achieved as much as is possible?

Thankful for some insight on the matter. A "no" is better than being ghosted.

Best regards
T-wow shaman community

Summary of the thread: No answer as of 12-Dec-2023. The following pages is just the community speaking up mostly in support of doing something with the shaman class.
Last edited by Thefnom on Tue Dec 12, 2023 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lipidus
Posts: 29

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Lipidus » Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:01 pm

++++++

Gremmlo
Posts: 1

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Gremmlo » Wed Oct 11, 2023 8:10 am

Totally agree with this, sad to see that enhancement is once again a meme spec.

Sladyer
Posts: 13

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Sladyer » Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:23 pm

imo , twow dev team don't play shaman.
they just want a heal class with windfury totem.
1.17 class change ? i won't surprised if it's a weekly change note , it's a little more than normal weekly change but TINY content for a patch.
in raid, enhancement = trash totem bot , tank = trash and no actual tank ability , elemental = still trash totem bot and more weaker than Classic (no double crit) , restoration = normal and sometimes tank immune to chain heal. the only fun you can got = get Bis elemental gear , find a corner , nuke some newbie
shaman got no totems' GCD for each element ? excuse me ? they just want wf totem faster.

Thefnom
Posts: 35

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:46 pm

Sladyer wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:23 pm
imo , twow dev team don't play shaman.
they just want a heal class with windfury totem.
1.17 class change ? i won't surprised if it's a weekly change note , it's a little more than normal weekly change but TINY content for a patch.
in raid, enhancement = trash totem bot , tank = trash and no actual tank ability , elemental = still trash totem bot and more weaker than Classic (no double crit) , restoration = normal and sometimes tank immune to chain heal. the only fun you can got = get Bis elemental gear , find a corner , nuke some newbie
shaman got no totems' GCD for each element ? excuse me ? they just want wf totem faster.
I agree that that's the current state of shaman on Twow, not much has changed from the classic version. It is areal shame that neither of the good updates from later expansions can be added, much like it has for other classes. I believe that it would change the class entirely for the better, and is a proven concept.

Keep bumping this post. We collectively need an answer. Where're we at?
- It's OK not to be doing something (but please do explain why if that's the case) - just don't keep us in the dark.


/Sad shaman

Turboman
Posts: 124

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Turboman » Wed Oct 11, 2023 7:50 pm

Doing my bump. Also i like shamans so i would love to see some changes towards enh at least.

Williamson75
Posts: 112

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Williamson75 » Wed Oct 11, 2023 11:25 pm

here is another bump

Turboman
Posts: 124

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Turboman » Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:54 am

Bump it up!

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Harkus
Posts: 156

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Harkus » Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:29 am

Enhance deserves to be more than a healer with Bloodlust!

Zenrei02
Posts: 4

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Zenrei02 » Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:41 am

This is a big one for me as well. I think that one of the biggest crimes in Vanilla was how undercooked Shamans were. We could go into a long tangent about non-meta specs and how people found ways to be viable, but ultimately if other classes are getting decent reworks, I think someone should take a good look at the incomplete state Shamans Blizz left them in for so long.

Threat building mechanics but no tank kit. Magical ranged options but not a kit with a real rotation or dynamism. The only spec built to be actually good was Resto, and that was mainly because Chain Heal was the only efficient multi-target healing spell in Vanilla. Horde guilds spammed resto shammys in Vanilla Classic, then dumped them for Priests and Druids for TBC and Wrath. Once totems affected raid, you really only wanted Shamans for Bloodlust, and once that affected raid, well...

Paladins had near infinite mana from crits. Priests got Circle of Healing and Druids got Wild Growth, both smart heals that healed 5 people. Chain Heal lost its niche.

There needs to be something Shamans can do other than drop totems. Good shaman class mechanics is literally one the first things I look for in non-Blizzlike Vanilla servers.

Auroradance
Posts: 7

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Auroradance » Thu Oct 12, 2023 1:47 pm

you get the very point

Blondboombox
Posts: 24

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Blondboombox » Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:58 pm

Here for Shaman love!

Hyrag
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Hyrag » Thu Oct 12, 2023 10:31 pm

Zenrei02 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 11:41 am
This is a big one for me as well. I think that one of the biggest crimes in Vanilla was how undercooked Shamans were. We could go into a long tangent about non-meta specs and how people found ways to be viable, but ultimately if other classes are getting decent reworks, I think someone should take a good look at the incomplete state Shamans Blizz left them in for so long.

Threat building mechanics but no tank kit. Magical ranged options but not a kit with a real rotation or dynamism. The only spec built to be actually good was Resto, and that was mainly because Chain Heal was the only efficient multi-target healing spell in Vanilla. Horde guilds spammed resto shammys in Vanilla Classic, then dumped them for Priests and Druids for TBC and Wrath. Once totems affected raid, you really only wanted Shamans for Bloodlust, and once that affected raid, well...

Paladins had near infinite mana from crits. Priests got Circle of Healing and Druids got Wild Growth, both smart heals that healed 5 people. Chain Heal lost its niche.

There needs to be something Shamans can do other than drop totems. Good shaman class mechanics is literally one the first things I look for in non-Blizzlike Vanilla servers.
Shamans should get mana back with haste(attacks/s) plus dual wield...
to be on par with similar classes. Two Hand in pvp dual wield in pve.
Plus a filler spell(just like crusader strike)

Zenrei02
Posts: 4

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Zenrei02 » Fri Oct 13, 2023 3:26 am

One of the main concerns I've seen with the class changes here is that while other classes have had some TBC changes added in, Shamans haven't, despite having one of the largest overhauls in their enhancement and elemental trees. Somehow, despite that, none of those vital changes made it into TWoW so far. Instead, nearly every change to the Shaman class involved adding more utility to a class who literally provides up to 4 buffs to their party at any time. It's adding more to a role that they already have a ton of tools for.

A shocking example is the Thunderhead talent. What purpose is it to add a talent to give yet another buff to a different party member, when the required talent is useless to a Shaman in a group/raiding situation? Why was the idea to create another buff (which would realistically only go to the tank) instead of simply using the Static Shock talent? Very few of the changes made reflect a focus on the endgame PvE ability of the class.

I could go into detail into all of the ways Elemental and Enhancement changes in TBC and Wrath helped make Shamans decent dps options, but anyone can look those up. As a whole, nearly every change was to help Shamans have more tools in groups and raids while also providing one or two extra buffs. Those changes fixed mana issues, added spells and ways for enhancement to use more spells to be a true hybrid damage class, and added talents that scaled stats better (though instead of Mental Dexterity/Mental Quickness, a talent that changes the shock/LB/CL damage calculation to be based on weapon damage or attack power would fit better in TWoW).

Shamans already possess a lot of utility. For some reason this seems to be a blind spot to the current design philosophy; Shamans are already treated like a totem/utility mule. Changes should not add to that burden.

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Karrados
Posts: 368

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Karrados » Fri Oct 13, 2023 4:47 am

The Problem is that all those changes and additions For Shamans were, for the most part, fluff.

Shamans don't need fluff, they need something substantial. Calm Elements, Watershield at 60 with no passive component, Earth Shield, Feral Spirit, Spirit Link, Hex, Thunderhead just to name a few.

Those are all gimmicks. The only "Worthwhile" changes would be the Stormstrike buff, Totemic Recall along with Two-handed weapons no longer being a Talent.

Bloodlust is something that I am entirely split on because at the end of the day it just caused Resto to respec into 0/31/20 and Heal like that which means it did not help Enhancers at all. One could argue that putting 31 points into Enhancer would make you one but it doesn't change the fact that people are Healing like that with full Int gear.

All they did with Bloodlust is to indirectly buff Restoration Shamans who don't need many talents in Resto to heal well.

Enhancer just have no identity at this point and there is no reason to take one of them, ever. They used to be Nightfall bots but even that is no longer the case on Turtle.

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Jstansberry
Posts: 140

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:40 am

I've made a few posts on the state of enhancement shamans. The direction the Turtle team has been taking enhancement seems aimless and is a bit disappointing. Like the poster above me stated, it's almost all fluff. Almost all the remaining changes that are not fluff are utility tools. Bloodlust and totems do not scale with gear. You may as well have a naked shaman standing in your raid group providing Bloodlust and totem buffs.

Enhancement "tank" spec should only be addressed after enhancement's actual identity as a melee damage dealer is. Enhancing Totems and Improved Weapon Totems give such marginal benefits over the baseline totem buffs that it simply isn't ever worth it to have an enhancement DPS over an elemental dps. Bloodlust being single target is almost a cruel decision. It solidifies an enhancement shaman's spot at the bottom of the totem pole - the spell does not get any better with gear and this is the spell that all of enhancement's value in pve is derived from. It's like they saw how enhancement shamans didn't want to just be Windfury totem bots so they made them Bloodlust bots as well. When Bloodlust is cast on an ally, the enhancement shaman who cast it should get the buff as well. As it is now, if your raid wants Bloodlust you just play as a resto with 0/30/21 talents.

Give us an actual melee dps kit for enhancement, please. No more of this "support" spec theme. DPS paladins were given two entire new melee attack abilities in their kit with interesting mechanics - Crusader Strike being able to proc things and ignore ppm is cool. Give us some form of Lava Lash adapted for 2h enhancement, or at least some other alternative.

Moving Nature's Guidance (the %hit talent) from Restoration into Enhancement - replacing Guardian Totems - makes sense to me. Replacing Enhancing Totems and Improved Weapon Totems with actual DPS talents or buffing them to scale with the Shaman somehow could allow the Enhancement tree to scale as well with gear as any other spec. Too much of their value is tied into non-scaling buffs.

I know some players are pretty invested in enhancement tanking but honestly I think it should be put on the back burner until enhancement as a baseline spec is given some love. Shamans lack almost the entire tanking toolkit - no taunt, no AoE threat generation, no mitigation abilities. Trying to fit all that into the enhancement tree means adding those as baseline abilities or replacing the currently melee DPS identity of enhancement entirely with tanking.

Zenrei02
Posts: 4

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Zenrei02 » Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:32 am

Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:40 am
I've made a few posts on the state of enhancement shamans. The direction the Turtle team has been taking enhancement seems aimless and is a bit disappointing. Like the poster above me stated, it's almost all fluff. Almost all the remaining changes that are not fluff are utility tools. Bloodlust and totems do not scale with gear. You may as well have a naked shaman standing in your raid group providing Bloodlust and totem buffs.

Enhancement "tank" spec should only be addressed after enhancement's actual identity as a melee damage dealer is. Enhancing Totems and Improved Weapon Totems give such marginal benefits over the baseline totem buffs that it simply isn't ever worth it to have an enhancement DPS over an elemental dps. Bloodlust being single target is almost a cruel decision. It solidifies an enhancement shaman's spot at the bottom of the totem pole - the spell does not get any better with gear and this is the spell that all of enhancement's value in pve is derived from. It's like they saw how enhancement shamans didn't want to just be Windfury totem bots so they made them Bloodlust bots as well. When Bloodlust is cast on an ally, the enhancement shaman who cast it should get the buff as well. As it is now, if your raid wants Bloodlust you just play as a resto with 0/30/21 talents.

Give us an actual melee dps kit for enhancement, please. No more of this "support" spec theme. DPS paladins were given two entire new melee attack abilities in their kit with interesting mechanics - Crusader Strike being able to proc things and ignore ppm is cool. Give us some form of Lava Lash adapted for 2h enhancement, or at least some other alternative.

Moving Nature's Guidance (the %hit talent) from Restoration into Enhancement - replacing Guardian Totems - makes sense to me. Replacing Enhancing Totems and Improved Weapon Totems with actual DPS talents or buffing them to scale with the Shaman somehow could allow the Enhancement tree to scale as well with gear as any other spec. Too much of their value is tied into non-scaling buffs.

I know some players are pretty invested in enhancement tanking but honestly I think it should be put on the back burner until enhancement as a baseline spec is given some love. Shamans lack almost the entire tanking toolkit - no taunt, no AoE threat generation, no mitigation abilities. Trying to fit all that into the enhancement tree means adding those as baseline abilities or replacing the currently melee DPS identity of enhancement entirely with tanking.
For many vanilla players, Shaman was the utility class and instead of thinking of ways to flesh things out, they doubled down. The frustrating thing is that it's very clear that they looked at TBC and Wrath as a reference for adding abilities and mechanics for other classes but the only major thing they saw worth implementing for shamans was Bloodlust.

The foundation already exist in TBC and Wrath. It's not perfect, but it's a great place to start when it comes to improving on it or adjust it to fit the vanilla style talents. No DW, a couple of new/reworked skills. Make a passive that turns Shocks into weapon skills that scale on weapon damage. Make a Lava Lash that acts an AoE. Maelstrom Weapon except it stacks to 3 instead of 5. Maybe a skill that consumes all totems for an execute. Something.

Tanking is the only thing I disagree about. It's not super difficult to implement tanking mechanics and rotation. The druid trees are a perfect example. Talents that do two different things at the same time is possible. Just make the talent work differently based on whether a 2h or shield is equipped.

Take Static Shock from TBC. All you have to do is add "or while a shield is equipped, when blocking...this effect will not consume charges while a shield is equipped." And now you have lightning shield tank. It's already been done elsewhere. It can be done here.

Zehulk12
Posts: 16

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Zehulk12 » Fri Oct 13, 2023 12:07 pm

+1 bump

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Manletow
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Manletow » Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm

Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:40 am
enhancement's actual identity as a melee damage dealer

Give us an actual melee dps kit for enhancement, please. No more of this "support" spec theme
It was not until WoTLK that blizzard decided definitively that Enhancement was to be a "pure melee DPS spec".

TBC was very much a continuation of the "Support Spec" theme as the talents were hardly changed.
Indeed even "Tank Spec" got love in the form of the Enhance tree "capstone" talent was a 30% damage reduction "panic button".
Tho blizz was still love/hate (mostly hate) with "Shaman Tank" as they changed the Parry talent to REDUCE threat...

ANYWAY as i've said before: i do not mind some minor tweaks (or even additions) to Enhancement Shamans. Such as buffing/altering painfully mediocre/boring talents (like the ones that buff totems).

But this idea that Enhancement was originally meant as a "DPS powerhouse" is just inaccurate.

I feel you are fundamentally misunderstanding the design philosophy of Turtle WoW which is explicitly stated to be "Finishing what blizzard started" and "patching obviously broken/terrible/overlooked things".

Like it or not, Blizz (early in development) wanted Shamans to Tank. This is natural as they were the counterpart to Paladins who have a Tank Talent Tree.
They clearly half-assed this idea (even Prot Pallies were rather lame) which is why Turtle WoW wisely gave these specs much needed love.

Sorry man but Turtle WoW will most likely never make significant changes to Enhancement gameplay as this would be a betrayal of the original game design which is what T-WoW staff specifically want to avoid (they don't want Vanilla to become TBC or Wrath or god forbid -- retail)
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Thefnom
Posts: 35

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Fri Oct 13, 2023 5:52 pm

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm

Sorry man but Turtle WoW will most likely never make significant changes to Enhancement gameplay as this would be a betrayal of the original game design which is what T-WoW staff specifically want to avoid (they don't want Vanilla to become TBC or Wrath or god forbid -- retail)
There are many changes out there in later patches, Twow can stitch anything together or just use something but dialed down to classic level. While I agree that copying things from another patch might not neccesarily be the way to go, hasn't T-wow already copied more or less things straight out of TBC? Just on top of my head:

Hunters - Steady shot
Druids - Tree form
Rogues - Deadly throw
Shaman - Water shield

The intention of this thread is however just to get an answer on whether or not Twow team are intending to improve the class with respect to the statement (and in more substansional ways than what has been improved), and if we can at best be given a time line and a plan.
Or if they simply are not planning on it - in which case we can all find some peace of mind.

Algeri420
Posts: 51

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Algeri420 » Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:15 pm

Obviously torta's team play mainly alliance (that would explain why paladins arent nerfed alredy and why shamans are in bad spot)
ENH shaman should be for tanking and support dps (just copy tbc enh shaman but with 2h weapon) both dps and tank spec should work like feral druid works ( 2 specs in one spec)
ELE for support dps (give them tbc spell DPS totem)
restro is good enough
Just give some love to horde alredy
inb4 shaman can cast lighting bolt+ chain lighting+ earth shock
every class have nuke option

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Jstansberry
Posts: 140

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:01 pm

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
It was not until WoTLK that blizzard decided definitively that Enhancement was to be a "pure melee DPS spec".

TBC was very much a continuation of the "Support Spec" theme as the talents were hardly changed.

Looking at Shamanistic Rage and saying Blizzard intended that damage reduction to be used for tanking is very misleading. The damage reduction component was for PVP. The PVE aspect was the mana regen on attacks equal to 30% of your attack power, providing enhancement a way to not go OOM in long PVE encounters, but you conveniently ignored that half of the spell. Don't forget that blizzard added the Mental Quickness talent in TBC as well, allowing spells to scale with attack power for enhancement shamans - an obviously DPS focused talent. Tying the parry talent to 30% threat reduction should be an obvious indicator that enhancement was absolutely not supposed to be tanking in TBC. The talent tree was changed drastically in TBC for enhancement and I suspect you haven't played TBC at least as an enhancement shaman if you really think that they were anywhere near the same "role" as they are in vanilla. Their "support" aspects were tied to them critting and hitting things rather than just placing totems and using a single target bloodlust on cooldown, and they actually did more than 40% the DPS/damage dealt as pure DPS classes.

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
But this idea that Enhancement was originally meant as a "DPS powerhouse" is just inaccurate.

I'm not saying enhancement is a DPS powerhouse, I'm saying it's a melee dps spec - which is fundamentally true.

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
I feel you are fundamentally misunderstanding the design philosophy of Turtle WoW which is explicitly stated to be "Finishing what blizzard started" and "patching obviously broken/terrible/overlooked things".

Like it or not, Blizz (early in development) wanted Shamans to Tank. This is natural as they were the counterpart to Paladins who have a Tank Talent Tree.
They clearly half-assed this idea (even Prot Pallies were rather lame) which is why Turtle WoW wisely gave these specs much needed love.

If Blizzard wanted shamans to tank they would have put in a modicum of effort to make it work. It was a concept abandoned in early development for a reason. Shamans and Paladins are not counterparts, they are both hybrid classes with strong group buffs but the similarities end there. Paladins have a spec specifically for tanking, shamans have a spec specifically for caster dps. They both have healing and melee dps specs, but they are definitely asymmetrical. Blizzard also wanted hunters and rogues to be able to use bucklers early on in development, does that mean Turtle devs should bring that back? Sure it would be cool but it'd be incredibly difficult to implement without making it either overpowered or utterly useless, while likely breaking existing class balance entirely.

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
Sorry man but Turtle WoW will most likely never make significant changes to Enhancement gameplay as this would be a betrayal of the original game design which is what T-WoW staff specifically want to avoid (they don't want Vanilla to become TBC or Wrath or god forbid -- retail)
They've made significant changes to both paladin and druid gameplay and they seem quite fun, to be honest. Maybe overtuned for pvp, but the classes are quite a lot more viable in pve now for things other than healing - which is exactly the kind of changes that enhancement needs. 0/31/20 is the "meta" enhancement build and is basically just a resto shaman with Bloodlust.

Thefnom
Posts: 35

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:27 pm

Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:01 pm
Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:01 pm
Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
It was not until WoTLK that blizzard decided definitively that Enhancement was to be a "pure melee DPS spec".

TBC was very much a continuation of the "Support Spec" theme as the talents were hardly changed.

Looking at Shamanistic Rage and saying Blizzard intended that damage reduction to be used for tanking is very misleading. The damage reduction component was for PVP. The PVE aspect was the mana regen on attacks equal to 30% of your attack power, providing enhancement a way to not go OOM in long PVE encounters, but you conveniently ignored that half of the spell. Don't forget that blizzard added the Mental Quickness talent in TBC as well, allowing spells to scale with attack power for enhancement shamans - an obviously DPS focused talent. Tying the parry talent to 30% threat reduction should be an obvious indicator that enhancement was absolutely not supposed to be tanking in TBC. The talent tree was changed drastically in TBC for enhancement and I suspect you haven't played TBC at least as an enhancement shaman if you really think that they were anywhere near the same "role" as they are in vanilla. Their "support" aspects were tied to them critting and hitting things rather than just placing totems and using a single target bloodlust on cooldown, and they actually did more than 40% the DPS/damage dealt as pure DPS classes.

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
But this idea that Enhancement was originally meant as a "DPS powerhouse" is just inaccurate.


I'm not saying enhancement is a DPS powerhouse, I'm saying it's a melee dps spec - which is fundamentally true.

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
I feel you are fundamentally misunderstanding the design philosophy of Turtle WoW which is explicitly stated to be "Finishing what blizzard started" and "patching obviously broken/terrible/overlooked things".

Like it or not, Blizz (early in development) wanted Shamans to Tank. This is natural as they were the counterpart to Paladins who have a Tank Talent Tree.
They clearly half-assed this idea (even Prot Pallies were rather lame) which is why Turtle WoW wisely gave these specs much needed love.

If Blizzard wanted shamans to tank they would have put in a modicum of effort to make it work. It was a concept abandoned in early development for a reason. Shamans and Paladins are not counterparts, they are both hybrid classes with strong group buffs but the similarities end there. Paladins have a spec specifically for tanking, shamans have a spec specifically for caster dps. They both have healing and melee dps specs, but they are definitely asymmetrical. Blizzard also wanted hunters and rogues to be able to use bucklers early on in development, does that mean Turtle devs should bring that back? Sure it would be cool but it'd be incredibly difficult to implement without making it either overpowered or utterly useless, while likely breaking existing class balance entirely.

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
Sorry man but Turtle WoW will most likely never make significant changes to Enhancement gameplay as this would be a betrayal of the original game design which is what T-WoW staff specifically want to avoid (they don't want Vanilla to become TBC or Wrath or god forbid -- retail)
They've made significant changes to both paladin and druid gameplay and they seem quite fun, to be honest. Maybe overtuned for pvp, but the classes are quite a lot more viable in pve now for things other than healing - which is exactly the kind of changes that enhancement needs. 0/31/20 is the "meta" enhancement build and is basically just a resto shaman with Bloodlust.
.
Agreed.
I think especially your last part is a good point. The Twow team has done some great changes to other classes that were not nessecarily super tuned, but they made the class vastly more enjoyable. All we can hope for as shamans is that they are cooking up something similar for us..

Turtle overlords, please give us a hint of your existance and show some interest in the matter.

Thegr8equalizer
Posts: 25

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thegr8equalizer » Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:18 pm

Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:40 am
enhancement's actual identity as a melee damage dealer

Give us an actual melee dps kit for enhancement, please. No more of this "support" spec theme
It was not until WoTLK that blizzard decided definitively that Enhancement was to be a "pure melee DPS spec".

TBC was very much a continuation of the "Support Spec" theme as the talents were hardly changed.
Indeed even "Tank Spec" got love in the form of the Enhance tree "capstone" talent was a 30% damage reduction "panic button".
Tho blizz was still love/hate (mostly hate) with "Shaman Tank" as they changed the Parry talent to REDUCE threat...

ANYWAY as i've said before: i do not mind some minor tweaks (or even additions) to Enhancement Shamans. Such as buffing/altering painfully mediocre/boring talents (like the ones that buff totems).

But this idea that Enhancement was originally meant as a "DPS powerhouse" is just inaccurate.

I feel you are fundamentally misunderstanding the design philosophy of Turtle WoW which is explicitly stated to be "Finishing what blizzard started" and "patching obviously broken/terrible/overlooked things".

Like it or not, Blizz (early in development) wanted Shamans to Tank. This is natural as they were the counterpart to Paladins who have a Tank Talent Tree.
They clearly half-assed this idea (even Prot Pallies were rather lame) which is why Turtle WoW wisely gave these specs much needed love.

Sorry man but Turtle WoW will most likely never make significant changes to Enhancement gameplay as this would be a betrayal of the original game design which is what T-WoW staff specifically want to avoid (they don't want Vanilla to become TBC or Wrath or god forbid -- retail)
Everything you said is false and been proven wrong very early into classic beta. The lead class designer Kevin Jordan did a bunch of podcast (countdown to classic) about all classes in vanilla and said that enhancement was supposed to be a melee dps spec, not a support spec, not a tank spec. He did said that shaman were supposed to be able to tank up to ST but were never intended to be tanking at lvl 60.

Link to the said Podcast on shaman class with Kevin Jordan:

You're welcome.

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Jstansberry
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:23 pm

Thegr8equalizer wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:18 pm
Manletow wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:03 pm
Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 6:40 am
enhancement's actual identity as a melee damage dealer

Give us an actual melee dps kit for enhancement, please. No more of this "support" spec theme
It was not until WoTLK that blizzard decided definitively that Enhancement was to be a "pure melee DPS spec".

TBC was very much a continuation of the "Support Spec" theme as the talents were hardly changed.
Indeed even "Tank Spec" got love in the form of the Enhance tree "capstone" talent was a 30% damage reduction "panic button".
Tho blizz was still love/hate (mostly hate) with "Shaman Tank" as they changed the Parry talent to REDUCE threat...

ANYWAY as i've said before: i do not mind some minor tweaks (or even additions) to Enhancement Shamans. Such as buffing/altering painfully mediocre/boring talents (like the ones that buff totems).

But this idea that Enhancement was originally meant as a "DPS powerhouse" is just inaccurate.

I feel you are fundamentally misunderstanding the design philosophy of Turtle WoW which is explicitly stated to be "Finishing what blizzard started" and "patching obviously broken/terrible/overlooked things".

Like it or not, Blizz (early in development) wanted Shamans to Tank. This is natural as they were the counterpart to Paladins who have a Tank Talent Tree.
They clearly half-assed this idea (even Prot Pallies were rather lame) which is why Turtle WoW wisely gave these specs much needed love.

Sorry man but Turtle WoW will most likely never make significant changes to Enhancement gameplay as this would be a betrayal of the original game design which is what T-WoW staff specifically want to avoid (they don't want Vanilla to become TBC or Wrath or god forbid -- retail)
Everything you said is false and been proven wrong very early into classic beta. The lead class designer Kevin Jordan did a bunch of podcast (countdown to classic) about all classes in vanilla and said that enhancement was supposed to be a melee dps spec, not a support spec, not a tank spec. He did said that shaman were supposed to be able to tank up to ST but were never intended to be tanking at lvl 60.

Link to the said Podcast on shaman class with Kevin Jordan:

You're welcome.
Thank you for this, never seen this video before but now I feel exonerated in my mission to prove that enhancement doesn't deserve to be such an awful spec.

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Ghola
Posts: 200

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Ghola » Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:12 pm

Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:23 pm


Thank you for this, never seen this video before but now I feel exonerated in my mission to prove that enhancement doesn't deserve to be such an awful spec.
earthshock causing bonus threat = shamans were meant to tank is a silly naive argument I was sick of picking apart

mind blast, counterspell, searing pain, distracting shot, heroic strike, even the new rogue poison. Funnily enough the only classes which don't have spells that are threat modified are druids and paladins, which were clearly meant to tank in blizzards original vision.

Shamans were given shields and mail because theyre the only casters without hard cc or mage armor of some kind, so they need to be able to tank a hit

rockbiter is about the only one I can understand as a straight tanking ability

Trymv1
Posts: 92

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Trymv1 » Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:45 am

Flametongue procs Elemental Devestation now and already worked with Elemental Fury.

Direction sounds more like 21/30/0 than ever, and theres some Melee/Spell dual-crit gear to snag to support it.

People just attach themselves to the idea of (self) Windfury too much and its just not as great as people make it out to be in PvE.

Also find groups not demanding you ONLY play a totem-twist slut.

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Jstansberry
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:06 am

Trymv1 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 3:45 am
Flametongue procs Elemental Devestation now and already worked with Elemental Fury.

Direction sounds more like 21/30/0 than ever, and theres some Melee/Spell dual-crit gear to snag to support it.

People just attach themselves to the idea of (self) Windfury too much and its just not as great as people make it out to be in PvE.

Also find groups not demanding you ONLY play a totem-twist slut.
Not having Nature's Guidance and Totemic Mastery can be super detrimental for PvE - Totemic Mastery is more conditional on the content you are doing, though. I've also done tests and WF does much more DPS than Flametongue even with 21/30/0. Maybe if I had aq40/r13 sets for the melee crit and spell crit mixture it'd be closer. With 21/30/0 talents my DPS with Windfury is ~282 against target dummies, with Flametongue it's ~220 (both numbers are without buffs/consumes - the new spellpower/spell crit consume could be good with the Flametongue build).

WF is just super strong, it also provides more rolls for crits to proc Flurry. Another issue is that relying on fire damage in MC/BWL is not going to end well - WF will always be the option in that tier of content because of that.

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Imonobor
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Imonobor » Sat Oct 14, 2023 7:25 am

Doing my duty of bumping up.
I really loved Wrath's changes of making enhancement a hybrid spec - transfering some AP into SP, getting insta cast procs, it felt so good to play. I'm not suggesting we copy it, but maybe solidifying enhancement as a hybrid spec would do it some good, and give more purpose to the (rare) hybrid gear that has both AP and SP on it. Maybe even add more of said gear throughout the game.
Nydas - 60 High Elf Mage (Nordanaar)
Farren - 60 Tauren Shaman (Nordanaar)
Gothric - 15 Human Paladin (Nordanaar)
Markal - 58 Undead Priest (Tel'Abim)

Thefnom
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Thefnom » Sat Oct 14, 2023 7:52 pm

Imonobor wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 7:25 am
Doing my duty of bumping up.
I really loved Wrath's changes of making enhancement a hybrid spec - transfering some AP into SP, getting insta cast procs, it felt so good to play. I'm not suggesting we copy it, but maybe solidifying enhancement as a hybrid spec would do it some good, and give more purpose to the (rare) hybrid gear that has both AP and SP on it. Maybe even add more of said gear throughout the game.
Yeah I share the view that there seemingly are ways to improve the class without looking too far away. The Twow statement can be interpreted as if they agree.

Astiao
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Astiao » Sat Oct 14, 2023 9:21 pm

Shamans really do need love, all the gear in these updates is for warrior paladins, casters clothing and druids.
hunters and shamans were forgotten, all classes have quite a few equipment options, they should add a set of Mail Armor
letherworking of lvl 40, 55, and 60 that is for casters, melee and range the shamans have to compete from lvl 10 -60 with clothes made for priests and magicians to be able to be caster

Alfonso
Posts: 48

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Alfonso » Sun Oct 15, 2023 11:38 am

So what we need is a non-burst and don't copy warriors thing that does not affect pvp too much but is not boring!


Some thoughts just to address what I have read so far:

A) Let shock spells scale with the increase in physical damage (same as B but more shaman uniques and fewer "copy warriors").

Let's say at T3 Raid buffed it does 1000 dmg. I don't like that you can do that at 20y range so. Together with the spell interrupt or slow, it would be too strong in pvp but only okay in a raid.

-> Not to balance with pvp (Paladin problematic here)

B) Give shamans more weapon-based attacks or reduce Storm strike CD (WF proc + SS + Shock is not enough yellow damage: Goal is around 50/50 white and yellow damage at T3 Content).

--> Better than A since it only has melee range and does not ignore armor, so it's more raid-oriented, but too much like a warrior and burst with WF even worse...

C) Give them a physical dps self-buff

-> boring solution but less risk of getting "Palanced"

So to sum it up, C is boring A and B is a pvp problem, so you need C but with a shaman flavor:

MY SOLUTION:

Shocks give the shaman a stacking (5) +2% haste for 10s.

-> that does lead to a 10% dmg increase over about 20-30sec, but it would not be a big deal in pvp (no burst mechanic). Gets removed or the fight is decided at that time).

It will feel good since you see a bit more WF procs too, and it does give a good reason to use shock spells later on, but you can't do that in pvp since you have to save it for the right moment.
--------
By the way, the utility of shamans is already very good in pvp/pve.
Gear is a bit rare, but you can find good stuff.

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Manletow
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Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Manletow » Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:32 am

Jstansberry wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:01 pm
the mana regen on attacks equal to 30% of your attack power, providing enhancement DPS a way to not go OOM in long PVE encounters
blizzard added the Mental Quickness talent in TBC as well, allowing spells to scale with attack power for enhancement shamans - an obviously DPS focused talent.
I'm not saying enhancement is a melee DPS powerhouse, I'm saying it's a melee dps spec - which is fundamentally true.
kek u act like Mana is exclusively useful for doing damage. that capstone ability is for sustainability and survivability its not very good evidence of your fantasy "blizz intent was for enhancement to be a DPS powerhouse"

yes dumbass your position is that Enhancement are NOT CURRENTLY Melee DPS Powerhouses but that they SHOULD BE becuz BLIZZ (in your imagination) wanted them to be so (but failed according to your standards)

its funneh u clowns smugly pointed to that 3 hour long vid to 'own me' when I can point to that 2005 "Class Panel" video wherein its outright stated shamans were meant to be "CASTERS FIRST and melee DPS SECOND".

Also yes they were apparently at some point in development just Totem dispensers shitting out endless totems. That was their original primary role.
If Blizzard wanted shamans to tank they would have put in a modicum of effort to make it work.
Shamans and Paladins are not counterparts
Blizzard also wanted hunters and rogues to be able to use bucklers early on in development, does that mean Turtle devs should bring that back?
Blizz gave countless (mediocre) tools/abilities/skills to Shamans allowing them to Tank (modest difficultly) content. I'd say 60% Effort is "a modicum"

yes, Shaman/Paladin are counterparts. you think 'counterpart' means "identical twin"? what do you think "counter" means? lol satisfied_turtle_head
they are hybrids that are the Mascot Class of their respective factions. its really not debatable bud.

sure give Rogues/Hunters the ability to use shields. that would be a very interesting experiment that likely would see no impact on the game whatsoever as theres no synergy.
maybe hunters would like them in PVP to have slightly higher survivability...? (do they get the ability to block as well?)
They've made significant changes to both paladin and druid gameplay
the "meta" enhancement build and is basically just a resto shaman with Bloodlust.
paladins were not 'changed' lol you are confirming yet again my point that you dont understand the turtle WoW dev's philosophy. paladins were given BACK abilities that ALREADY EXISTED.
(Holy Strike is a disaster due to it being utterly broken in PVP but thats not the point)

druids hardly were "fundamentally changed gameplay wise". you referring to them all getting "Insect Swarm"? lol

omg NoOo Enhancement ""have"" to be a hybrid talent build like 90% of other people in the game? wut a tragedy.
Good. I like that they are acting at the Support Class that they were clearly designed to be.

You want Enhancement Melee DPS Focused Shaman:
Go play WOTLK Classic as its your dream come true.

Have fun, champ!
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Sladyer
Posts: 13

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Sladyer » Tue Oct 17, 2023 2:48 am

kek u act like Mana is exclusively useful for doing damage. that capstone ability is for sustainability and survivability its not very good evidence of your fantasy "blizz intent was for enhancement to be a DPS powerhouse"

yes dumbass your position is that Enhancement are NOT CURRENTLY Melee DPS Powerhouses but that they SHOULD BE becuz BLIZZ (in your imagination) wanted them to be so (but failed according to your standards)

its funneh u clowns smugly pointed to that 3 hour long vid to 'own me' when I can point to that 2005 "Class Panel" video wherein its outright stated shamans were meant to be "CASTERS FIRST and melee DPS SECOND".

Also yes they were apparently at some point in development just Totem dispensers shitting out endless totems. That was their original primary role.
ret pally can do top dps in naxx raid while enhancement & elemental is trash.
prot pally can tank every end game raid bosses while shaman tank need Bis gear to tank ZG AQ20 or MC.
Heal pally still top healer in raid while heal shaman doing just ok in raid ,which is the only spec that needed in raid.
is this good ? pally player ofc think it's very good but shaman player ?
Blizz gave countless (mediocre) tools/abilities/skills to Shamans allowing them to Tank (modest difficultly) content. I'd say 60% Effort is "a modicum"

yes, Shaman/Paladin are counterparts. you think 'counterpart' means "identical twin"? what do you think "counter" means? lol satisfied_turtle_head
they are hybrids that are the Mascot Class of their respective factions. its really not debatable bud.

sure give Rogues/Hunters the ability to use shields. that would be a very interesting experiment that likely would see no impact on the game whatsoever as theres no synergy.
maybe hunters would like them in PVP to have slightly higher survivability...? (do they get the ability to block as well?)
shaman don't want a "identical twin" , shaman need a relatively fair "counter"

paladin , who come from alliance , have the ability to start 100% proc Windfury , which from shaman , horde .
while shaman can't start Windfury proc by shaman self .
is this a joke ?

paladins were not 'changed' lol you are confirming yet again my point that you dont understand the turtle WoW dev's philosophy. paladins were given BACK abilities that ALREADY EXISTED.
(Holy Strike is a disaster due to it being utterly broken in PVP but thats not the point)

druids hardly were "fundamentally changed gameplay wise". you referring to them all getting "Insect Swarm"? lol

omg NoOo Enhancement ""have"" to be a hybrid talent build like 90% of other people in the game? wut a tragedy.
Good. I like that they are acting at the Support Class that they were clearly designed to be.

You want Enhancement Melee DPS Focused Shaman:
Go play WOTLK Classic as its your dream come true.
yeah "give back" some ability
blizzard replaced Holy Strike with Seal of Righteousness
blizzard replaced Crusader Strike with Seal of the Crusader
now pally got Holy Strike and Crusader Strike back , it's ok.
but the replaced ability still existed here ??
why shaman can't get some already existed ability back ? like every shock have it's own cd and don't share.(just for example)

or you may think that they get those ability from TBC/WLK
what shaman got from TBC/WLK? some trash water shield ? single target BL ?

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Jstansberry
Posts: 140

Re: What are the intentions with the Shaman class?

Post by Jstansberry » Tue Oct 17, 2023 4:13 am

Manletow wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:32 am

Have fun, champ!
Are you okay?

Blizzard did not intend enhancement to be a tank spec, end of story.If you actually cared about the "Turtle WoW philosophy" of finishing what Blizzard started, you'd care more about enhancement DPS than making a tank spec with nothing to work with in regards to a tanking kit. You'd rather throw away the already existing melee DPS enhancement tree for a halfbaked tank spec. You just like the idea of enhancement tank and have no real reasoning behind why it should take precedence. Earthshock and Rockbiter are not a tanking kit. Shadow Priests are not tanks because Mind Blast has extra threat gain, Warlocks are not tanks because of Searing Pain (except for sometimes on Twin Emps - only on that encounter though), Mages are not tanks because of Counterspell. There is nothing in the original enhancement tree to signify that they intended it to be a tank spec at all. A block and dodge talent are next to nothing. In that video the dev explicitly states they did not intend shamans to tank anything even close to endgame.

Feral Druids have received multiple new abilities, by the way - bear tanking and even cat DPS rotations are different now and bears also have a really strong tanking cooldown. You are lacking knowledge.
Manletow wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2023 1:32 am
sure give Rogues/Hunters the ability to use shields. that would be a very interesting experiment that likely would see no impact on the game whatsoever as theres no synergy.
This was exactly my point - there would be either no synergy if it's implemented in a half-assed way (like shaman tanking). Shaman tanking only works if both the shaman tank and their raid/group put in an unreasonable amount of extra effort because there is nothing in their kit to support it. You stack dodge items and you use Earthshock on cooldown. Very cool and reliable tanking gameplay.

You must not have played either a paladin or a druid on turtle, because they play much differently than they did in vanilla.

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