Addressing the guildhousing concerns

[Kairion]

So every guild should get access to this feature.In its current form, it is blatant favorism towards the guilds who got a base vs the ones who were denied one due to coming later or not having the ties to the team. And i'm not talking about having a quick access to plaguelands after servercrash to immediately snag up the plaguebloom before the spots are replaced by arthas tear. I'm talking about the joy of having your own place. Some times even equipped with timed flying mounts or in super secretive areas. A piece of privacy in the open world of an extremely overcrowded server. A space called home.

You all want to preserve this sensation, which i 100% agree with, but at the same time it comes off as elitism, using the rope and not caring if it was cut behind you.

Its not favoritism or elitism by any means. Just about a year ago, the server was at 1.5k. A year before that it was just a few hundred. This was a small niche pserver and the guilds that were here earned their bases. Because people were here before others isn't elitism, favoritism, or any other ism. No one is saying not every guild should have one. We're saying these our are homes. For some of us, its been a home for literal years. You don't demolish old homes and rehome people because new houses are being built.

This is the exact definition of favorism. Even if that was never the original intention of the guild house service.

Some people got it and others never will. Its dishartening to the people outside of the circle. And yet im defending your right to keep such a place, but the selfeighteousness of keeping this place in the open world while others will forever be locked to instanced guild houses or none at all and calling it equality is laughable.

[Snakeman]

Why are you assuming the new guild house system is going to be instanced? They can create a separate zone for the guild houses in the same world, accessible by a teleport system, like you use a guild tabard now. This way anyone can access any guild house any time, the only difference from now is that you will get teleported there instead of walking to it as you do currently.

From my understanding, the discussion of instanced comes from the previous thread that has since been removed, as well as discussion from Discord. Instancing the guild halls would relieve some (albeit minor given the place will not be crowded whatsoever) stress on the servers rather than sharing a load between Kalimdor or the Eastern Kingdoms.

Location is everything as well, and as it was put in a recent comment, these places were not seen as convenient advantages over others, but as a place for celebration, roleplay, gatherings that felt fluid to the place where they were so lovingly made. Having all of the existing guild homes that are frequently used get shipped off to some new continent would not honor their origins in the slightest.

To add onto this and bring up a point I made in the old thread, some guilds need their houses to be connected to the rest of the world for the RP of being there to work. To use Blacktooth Grin as an example, if we were to instance or even just move Little Hordemar, we would need not only our base, not only the whole Black Morass, but likely the Eastern Kingdoms in their entirety, complete with a presence of hostile NPCs and PvP-flagged Alliance players. Look at me, describing the open world.

We muster for most events at our base, and even during a lower-key and more homely campfire RP session we respond in earnest to players killing Stonard scouts along the roads and around the Splinterspear Junction. Since 2007 our charge has been the Swamp of Sorrows, and cutting our base out of the zone would more than likely mean we don't ever use it again. It'd be a damn shame to have happen, considering the blood, sweat and tears put into that base on both our part and the GMs'.

Bear in mind, I'm only making this point for the hypothetical scenario in which existing guild bases are moved to their own location.

[Valadorn]

Let me get this straight -

There is a class room with 30 kids and 30 chairs ( old guilds, old players and old guild houses )
70 new chinese exhange students arrive ( the huge influx of new ppl )

So, you decide to take away the chairs from those 30 ppl, bcz there is not enough room to bring an extra 70 chairs in ? so now everyone has to stand ? ( removing old guild bases bcz there are too many fresh guilds requesting new ones )

how is that fair ? why not let those 30 kids who have been there for years sit on their chairs ? ( keeping the old guild bases, nothing is stopping the new players from joining guilds with bases tbh)

Those Guild bases have been part of Turtle wow for years, that was the main reason for me to join turtle wow in the first place, back when the population was closer to 150, taking that away will upset many ppl.

Please dont do this Torta, dont take away our chairs bcz the new kids cant fit in, you can leave our Guild Bases alone and still work on the new guild mechanic you want to work on, slowly giving chairs to the new ppl.

[Drubarrymooer]

This is the exact definition of favorism. Even if that was never the original intention of the guild house service.

Some people got it and others never will. Its dishartening to the people outside of the circle. And yet im defending your right to keep such a place, but the selfeighteousness of keeping this place in the open world while others will forever be locked to instanced guild houses or none at all and calling it equality is laughable.

Eh...not really. No one's showing partiality to a particular group. If you want to go by the literal definition then, either way you shake it, its favoritism as both sides of the argument would be receiving partiality. That game could be played all day. Except, again, that's not what we're advocating for. We're advocating for leaving the current guild houses alone and giving new guilds the instanced version. Changing how they deliver a particular server feature due to limitations on the way it was previously implemented isn't favoritism or elitism. An apt analogy is, its not favoritism that my oldest child has more stuff than his younger siblings. He's just been around longer. Similarly, its not favoritism that his younger sibling may get a newer tech or toy. Like I said, we could play the semantic literal definition game all day long, but that's not what we're talking about.

[Shirazen]

So every guild should get access to this feature.In its current form, it is blatant favorism towards the guilds who got a base vs the ones who were denied one due to coming later or not having the ties to the team. And i'm not talking about having a quick access to plaguelands after servercrash to immediately snag up the plaguebloom before the spots are replaced by arthas tear. I'm talking about the joy of having your own place. Some times even equipped with timed flying mounts or in super secretive areas. A piece of privacy in the open world of an extremely overcrowded server. A space called home.

You all want to preserve this sensation, which i 100% agree with, but at the same time it comes off as elitism, using the rope and not caring if it was cut behind you.

Its not favoritism or elitism by any means. Just about a year ago, the server was at 1.5k. A year before that it was just a few hundred. This was a small niche pserver and the guilds that were here earned their bases. Because people were here before others isn't elitism, favoritism, or any other ism. No one is saying not every guild should have one. We're saying these our are homes. For some of us, its been a home for literal years. You don't demolish old homes and rehome people because new houses are being built.

This is the exact definition of favorism. Even if that was never the original intention of the guild house service.

Some people got it and others never will. Its dishartening to the people outside of the circle. And yet im defending your right to keep such a place, but the selfeighteousness of keeping this place in the open world while others will forever be locked to instanced guild houses or none at all and calling it equality is laughable.

There's never going to be true equality in the system if the devs are going to be moving from one to another - but the destruction or otherwise removal of the applicability of legacy content that we've had for so long is absolutely unfair to the folks and communities who had to maintain a consistent presence, run events or host raids for months or longer, and meet all of the other conditions to have the bases be a thing in the first place.

Guild bases being in the open world was a huge point in the server's favor for so many people who joined and put in their time to cultivate an entire community that the GMs deemed worthy for the added content. (especially RPers, where in their case, the open world aspect of the base is THE most important aspect)
But now just because new players happen to come along all of it is now under fire? Like, wut? Server pop goes up and suddenly legacy players are punished for.... being the ones that cultivated the server's community? I mean it's not like all the Guild Bases are ONLY the most HARDCORE RP AND RAIDING GUILDS. Plenty of social guilds got bases in the open world, as well.

It's like playing a new game and getting upset that people have legacy skins/gear/mounts - even though in the case of Guild Bases, you DO HAVE ACCESS TO IT in the forms of:
A. Joining a preestablished guild.
B. Coming across and using bases that are in the open world as you see fit.
C. Still having the potential of making a base within a system the GMs are building so new players can be granted the experience.

But no, of course the only option is to claim that if you don't have something it's not fair - therefor nobody should have it, even if the community has been happily existing on it's own for years.
This sorta thing happens in so many games and pieces of media and it's honestly so annoying to deal with time and time again.

[Shirazen]

......

[Shirazen]

Once again, there is no way we will simply demolish the old guild houses. Although the teleports via tabard will no longer be possible, as tabards will be repurposed for the newer system that will take priority over the old one.

We totally get where you're coming from with your worries about tearing down those old guild houses, and we really appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us. We want you to know that even though the tabard teleports won't be an option anymore, we're determined to come up with a way for you to still be able to access those guild houses down the line. It might be a gryphon stationed nearby or a terrain edit, if applicable.

Also - we got this answer from Jamie just last night in RP-Lounge (in the official Turtle Discord.) that Tabard RP will remain.


The amount of flip-floppy answers has been so annoying. Please, can we get a consistent answer WITHOUT you guys completely purging out this thread again, and effectively censoring all the feedback you're getting? This is extremely important to many communities and individuals on the server.

Thank you!!

[Torta]

Once again, there is no way we will simply demolish the old guild houses. Although the teleports via tabard will no longer be possible, as tabards will be repurposed for the newer system that will take priority over the old one.

We totally get where you're coming from with your worries about tearing down those old guild houses, and we really appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us. We want you to know that even though the tabard teleports won't be an option anymore, we're determined to come up with a way for you to still be able to access those guild houses down the line. It might be a gryphon stationed nearby or a terrain edit, if applicable.

Also - we got this answer from Jamie just last night in RP-Lounge (in the official Turtle Discord.) that Tabard RP will remain.


The amount of flip-floppy answers has been so annoying. Please, can we get a consistent answer WITHOUT you guys completely purging out this thread again, and effectively censoring all the feedback you're getting? This is extremely important to many communities and individuals on the server.

Thank you!!

There's no contradiction between my answer and Jamey's. We're telling you that the old houses stay. What's wrong?

[Shirazen]

Once again, there is no way we will simply demolish the old guild houses. Although the teleports via tabard will no longer be possible, as tabards will be repurposed for the newer system that will take priority over the old one.

We totally get where you're coming from with your worries about tearing down those old guild houses, and we really appreciate you sharing your thoughts with us. We want you to know that even though the tabard teleports won't be an option anymore, we're determined to come up with a way for you to still be able to access those guild houses down the line. It might be a gryphon stationed nearby or a terrain edit, if applicable.

Also - we got this answer from Jamie just last night in RP-Lounge (in the official Turtle Discord.) that Tabard RP will remain.


The amount of flip-floppy answers has been so annoying. Please, can we get a consistent answer WITHOUT you guys completely purging out this thread again, and effectively censoring all the feedback you're getting? This is extremely important to many communities and individuals on the server.

Thank you!!

There's no contradiction between my answer and Jamey's. We're telling you that the old houses stay. What's wrong?

He directly answered a question about Tabard Teleporting specifically, meanwhile you said, "Although the teleports via tabard will no longer be possible, as tabards will be repurposed for the newer system that will take priority over the old one."

Is there going to be any additional clarity? It didn't seem like Jamie was talking about the new guild bases, while you seem to be. Sarenrae specifically was referring to them when he answered her question.

If new Tabard TP or whatever functions take priority over the OLD system, like we were asking about, there definitely IS a contradiction between your answers.

*edits: additional clarity and spacing.*

[Jolikmc]

Once again, there is no way we will simply demolish the old guild houses.

There is a 70% chance that locations will remain preserved in the open world, while there is a 30% chance that they will be phased out and accessible only through the Cavern of Time. Only time will tell.

This is exactly why vague wording isn't always the best idea. Because, frankly, "phasing out" old guild bases sounds suspiciously like they're going to be demolished.

Honestly, just drop guile housing going forward. And don't ever do anything nice for the community ever again. You guys clearly underestimated and oversold, which is never a good look for any company. (;

[Torta]

He directly answered a question about Tabard Teleporting specifically, meanwhile you said, "Although the teleports via tabard will no longer be possible, as tabards will be repurposed for the newer system that will take priority over the old one."

Is there going to be any additional clarity? It didn't seem like Jamie was talking about the new guild bases, while you seem to be. Sarenrae specifically was referring to them when he answered her question.

There can't be any clarity, because the system isn't designed yet. But once it's in place, it will utilize Guild Tabards one way or another.

[Takie]

I already threw an enormous post out here already but I see a lot of 'elitism' or 'favoritism' posts from the new players who want the supposed 'haves' to join the 'have nots'.

So here we go: I suppose the next step in creating this perfect equality that you all seem so hungry for will include -
Taking away Atiesh's Kara port b/c it gives access to a world boss and soon a new 10 man and the 5 man already there?
Taking away titles earned by the server first Naxx raiders b/c that race is over and the new players can't compete for it?
Taking away Scarab Lord mounts, items, etc b/c it will never be available again for new players to get?
Hey you know what, lets maybe taking Engineering's Org/SW portal device and the Gadgetzhan/Everlook away cuz it creates unfairness towards hearth placement and the Gadgetzhan port specifically gives faster access to Ostarius! I'm not an engineer and so I don't like the advantage they get over me!
Oh and sorry mages, having the ability to port to any major city isn't fair to everyone else that isn't a mage, you gotta hoof it like the rest of us plebs.
Oh you have a Whimseyshire cloud mount and I don't, and the shop doesn't have it any more (I realize the mounts retirement hasn't happened yet, but just another example)...well guess what. DELETE IT.
Oh, you have the Turthulu (spelling?) pet??? And the world boss is no longer in the game so I can't get that pet??? DELETE IT!
And those of you dirty elitists who have been here for long enough to horde a ton of gold through selling on the AH, farming, etc...turn that gold over to the masses because its not fair that you can buy out amazing and rare items without it emptying your pockets! HOW. DARE. YOU!

This is all satire obviously. My point is there is always an advantage in some way for different things. including just being here when things happened. Some classes can farm gold like no ones business while others have to have dedicated alts to keep their raid supplies stocked. There are quests that reward specific things to Horde that Ally cant get and vice versa. Guild bases don't provide anything more than a place for people to enjoy as a second home away from the hustle and bustle of the big cities. It creates a sense of family, a sense of community, and a sense of belonging for those of us that are in these older guilds that earned their mark on the world when it was still young and much, MUCH smaller in players.

It was mentioned in another reply here in an analogy that being the older child doesn't mean you're favored just because you have more stuff...it just means you were there longer and therefore got things before the second child was born. This 100% applies to guild bases for the guilds that made this server what it is. The reason so many have come here is because of the dedicated hundreds that paved the way and kept the server active long enough for the now literally 10,000+ players to realize TWoWs greatness (and as mentioned in my previous post, I don't count myself among these people as I joined early 2022).

The new players who think old guilds having open-world guild housing while they may end up with an instanced guild house think this is somehow favoritism but the fact is, is that these guild houses existed well before you or your guild were ever formed (in the majority of cases). How can the GMs show favoritism against you when you weren't even here to be favorited against? It's not like every old guild has a member or members who rub elbows with the GMs daily. It was just a case of they were here when the option was open...and you weren't. The CoT option for you newer guilds to have your own G-base is a great way for you to still get your own little slice of the pie, it just won't be 100% the same as the guilds who were here from the get-go or at least long enough ago when G-bases in the open world were still being built.

I realize how long this rant is, but the idea that favoritism is at play here is laughable...especially since the topic is so hot BECAUSE the GMs are actively talking about taking away the g-bases or at the very least the NPCs and tabard hearths. This debate is just as much the old guilds trying to convince the GMs as it is telling the new players that what they have shouldn't be taken away to FAVOR (see what I did there?) a larger community with a homogenized g-base system.

[Shirazen]

He directly answered a question about Tabard Teleporting specifically, meanwhile you said, "Although the teleports via tabard will no longer be possible, as tabards will be repurposed for the newer system that will take priority over the old one."

Is there going to be any additional clarity? It didn't seem like Jamie was talking about the new guild bases, while you seem to be. Sarenrae specifically was referring to them when he answered her question.

There can't be any clarity, because the system isn't designed yet. But once it's in place, it will utilize Guild Tabards one way or another.

We understand that.

But the questions are specifically about Old Base Tabard functionality. Jamie said a very direct, "Yes" to whether or not old TPs will be retained, meanwhile you said, "No, New Base functions will take priority." these two things are not lining up with each other.

THAT is what we are looking for clarity on. If you guys haven't fleshed out the new system, that's fine. We know you gotta take time for that. But the INTENT behind your two answers seems contradictory from the very beginning.

[Torta]

He directly answered a question about Tabard Teleporting specifically, meanwhile you said, "Although the teleports via tabard will no longer be possible, as tabards will be repurposed for the newer system that will take priority over the old one."

Is there going to be any additional clarity? It didn't seem like Jamie was talking about the new guild bases, while you seem to be. Sarenrae specifically was referring to them when he answered her question.

There can't be any clarity, because the system isn't designed yet. But once it's in place, it will utilize Guild Tabards one way or another.

We understand that.

But the questions are specifically about Old Base Tabard functionality. Jamie said a very direct, "Yes" to whether or not old TPs will be retained, meanwhile you said, "No, New Base functions will take priority." these two things are not lining up with each other.

THAT is what we are looking for clarity on. If you guys haven't fleshed out the new system, that's fine. We know you gotta take time for that. But the INTENT behind your two answers seems contradictory from the very beginning.

The teleports remain for now, probably for another year or two. Guild Housing system development isn't our priority. But once the news system is in place, the spell on the tabard will function in a different way :)

[Freddothe2nd]

There can't be any clarity, because the system isn't designed yet. But once it's in place, it will utilize Guild Tabards one way or another.

We understand that.

But the questions are specifically about Old Base Tabard functionality. Jamie said a very direct, "Yes" to whether or not old TPs will be retained, meanwhile you said, "No, New Base functions will take priority." these two things are not lining up with each other.

THAT is what we are looking for clarity on. If you guys haven't fleshed out the new system, that's fine. We know you gotta take time for that. But the INTENT behind your two answers seems contradictory from the very beginning.

The teleports remain for now, probably for another year or two. Guild Housing system development isn't our priority. But once the news system is in place, the spell on the tabard will function in a different way :)

i would ask you think about my earlier suggestion about adding inn keep npcs so guild members can still teleport to there base with there hearthstone

[Torta]

We understand that.

But the questions are specifically about Old Base Tabard functionality. Jamie said a very direct, "Yes" to whether or not old TPs will be retained, meanwhile you said, "No, New Base functions will take priority." these two things are not lining up with each other.

THAT is what we are looking for clarity on. If you guys haven't fleshed out the new system, that's fine. We know you gotta take time for that. But the INTENT behind your two answers seems contradictory from the very beginning.

The teleports remain for now, probably for another year or two. Guild Housing system development isn't our priority. But once the news system is in place, the spell on the tabard will function in a different way :)

i would ask you think about my earlier suggestion about adding inn keep npcs so guild members can still teleport to there base with there hearthstone

I'll note down this suggestion, when the time comes we will consider this :)

[Cerilis]

So, just to be clear, you are not considering anymore to remove the old guild houses? No more 70% that they won't be removed, but 100%?

[Torta]

So, just to be clear, you are not considering anymore to remove the old guild houses? No more 70% that they won't be removed, but 100%?

We never considered their complete removal. This is misinformation that emerged from previously posted very misworded announcement. We had discussed this possibility to phase them out and make them part of the Caverns of Time experience, but it's likely won't happen, as they're part of the community history and frankly, it's not worth the technical effort :)

[Cerilis]

We never considered their complete removal. This is misinformation that emerged from previously posted very misworded announcement. We had discussed this possibility to phase them out and make them part of the Caverns of Time experience, but it's likely won't happen, as they're part of the community history and frankly, it's not worth the technical effort :)

Sorry, I did actually mean to specify "won't be removed from the open world" :X

[Torta]

We never considered their complete removal. This is misinformation that emerged from previously posted very misworded announcement. We had discussed this possibility to phase them out and make them part of the Caverns of Time experience, but it's likely won't happen, as they're part of the community history and frankly, it's not worth the technical effort :)

Sorry, I did actually mean to specify "won't be removed from the open world" :X

They won't be removed from the open world. Previously we communicated out-dated information that is no longer valid.

[Karrados]

No offense but the next time you make an announcement like that you should, at the very least, make a solid plan or at least have a rough idea as a team of what you wish to accomplish instead of posting wrong information and just causing massive issues within the community.

Especially if Housing is still 1-2 years off from what you posted, there was no rush at all for this one.

[Freddothe2nd]

We never considered their complete removal. This is misinformation that emerged from previously posted very misworded announcement. We had discussed this possibility to phase them out and make them part of the Caverns of Time experience, but it's likely won't happen, as they're part of the community history and frankly, it's not worth the technical effort :)

Sorry, I did actually mean to specify "won't be removed from the open world" :X

They won't be removed from the open world. Previously we communicated out-dated information that is no longer valid.

when do u plan to remove the tp from tabs?

[Torta]

No offense but the next time you make an announcement like that you should, at the very least, make a solid plan or at least have a rough idea as a team of what you wish to accomplish instead of posting wrong information and just causing massive issues within the community.

Especially if Housing is still 1-2 years off from what you posted, there was no rush at all for this one.

Agreed! In the future, if any team member makes a single mistake, instead of apologizing and being transparent about it, we will subject them to criticism and shut down the server, as we believe we are incapable of managing it.

I believe we have proven many times in the last 5 years that we are absolutely open to any feedback and always attentive to players' concerns. We consistently treat players with patience and respect, and we expect the same attitude in return.

I'm closing this thread as the matter has been addressed. Have a great day!

[Akalix]

Guild Housing:

- We will be leaving legacy bases in the open world.

- Tabards will keep their current function until GBv2 release, when they will be repurposed for the new system. We like the suggestion of adding Innkeeper NPCs to legacy bases, however we are not committing to any ideas currently.

- None of these changes will be happening until late 2024 at the earliest. It is not 1.17 content.