Paladin Class Request: Longer Buff Durations

[Borefficz]

I'm all for doubling the duration of blessings (10/30 min) and adjusting the mana costs accordingly. No boss fight lasts more than 10 minutes so it would be enough.

[Akos1896]

Atreidon, I think you guys talk about two different topics.
You prove that current buff method is manageable.
OP states (without manners) that current buff method is annoying.

I agree with you that current buffing is manageable as a paladin. But the question remains if increased buff times (possibly for more mana) would mean a qol improvement and would make the overall gameplay more enjoyable.

[Atreidon]

Atreidon, I think you guys talk about two different topics.
You prove that current buff method is manageable.
OP states (without manners) that current buff method is annoying.

I agree with you that current buffing is manageable as a paladin. But the question remains if increased buff times (possibly for more mana) would mean a qol improvement and would make the overall gameplay more enjoyable.

And i really dont think it is a QoL improvement. You can find free cooldowns as paladin even mid combat to rebuff should the need arise currently. If the buffs get more pricey, it gets harder to justify rebuffing mid combat. Especially with heavy use of bof/bop. You have to pay more mana to rebuff the target afterwards, while not gaining a stronger effect for it (since no matter if 15 mins or 30 mins no combat lasts that long and you can rebuff before the next pull just fine)

A 30 mins duration has a much less significant positive impact on me as a paladin, as double manacost has a negative one

The small blessings however i think should have a duration increase, as its just discouraging lvling pallies from doing dungeons :D

[Samsonslice]

BIG +1 on:
10min normal buffs
30min greater buffs

[Vladosrpg]

+1 on:
30min normal buffs
60min greater buffs

[Thecakeisalie]

A long overdue change +1

[Daedalus007]

I'd be ok with 2x increase (10/30) or a 3x increase (15/45) or my preferred 4x increase (20/60) but either way, ANY increase that is at least double would be preferable to the current outcome.
I already said I'm not ok with increased mana/reagent costs, but if that's what it takes to 'balance' things then so be it. In a raid you aren't rebuffing mid-combat anyways unless the tank gets a battle rez. :P

[Atreidon]

I cant stress enough how stupid adjusting the bigger blessing is, you have to either pay more mana & gold to rebuff people who died or juggle single blessings on em

You get penalized more for using freedom or protection & rebuffing afterwards. Not to mention a worse performance in pvp as blessing switching can actually be a viable way to save mana (switching to light before healing in bubble for instance)

But i guess we must be punished for the struggles of people who cant figure out how to install pallypower.

[Daedalus007]

*snip*

So far this is a suggestion; none of it has been implemented yet.

Devs can do one of many things, but the suggestion that I first posted (and stand by) is an increase in duration to paladin blessing buffs, both lesser and greater ones.

The increased mana/reagent cost increases were suggested by OTHER POSTERS as a 'balance' because they vehemently hate Paladins for whatever reason.

If you dislike the mana/reagent cost increase aspect of things then none of that is necessary. Keep mana/reagent costs the same but with 2x or longer durations. Easy. Done.

The mere fact a simple suggestion like this has THREE pages of morons like you arguing against your own class's benefits means it is that much more necessary to make this a thing.

[Sinrek]

What you're asking for is an amalgamation of bad paladins asking for freebies. Well … not many who play a paladin is a bad player, mind you, just not many learn to become a good one.

[Werefox]

The increased mana/reagent cost increases were suggested by OTHER POSTERS as a 'balance' because they vehemently hate Paladins for whatever reason.

Not suggested. Predicted. It is as inevitable as sunrise tomorrow that whoever is tasked to implement longer buffs is going to feel pressured to balance it by cost increase. You'd think someone who is so eager to call people morons would be better at reading comprehension, right?

Then again, we are talking about a guy who posts walls of theorycraft only to inadvertently reveal that he doesn't know basic things about the class he supposedly loves...

[Akos1896]

Yes.
Without mana cost increase would be unfair. Game would have to justify why priests drink after buffs all the time or why shamans magically lose like 10% of their total mana pool during each pull.
If we revamp buff costs and durations, it has to be generic, not paladin-centric, otherwise this becomes really unfair.
For paladin buff times I have no real opinion (leveling a pala but it's still low) but Atreidon kinda convinced me, at least for the raid-15 min buffs.

[Daedalus007]

Yes.
Without mana cost increase would be unfair. Game would have to justify why priests drink after buffs all the time or why shamans magically lose like 10% of their total mana pool during each pull.
If we revamp buff costs and durations, it has to be generic, not paladin-centric, otherwise this becomes really unfair.
For paladin buff times I have no real opinion (leveling a pala but it's still low) but Atreidon kinda convinced me, at least for the raid-15 min buffs.

Priests need a 50% mana cost reduction for their buffs (Blessings/Prayers) tbh. Been asking about that for a while now.

As far as Shamans go, when considering their powerful abilities (both for PvE and PvP) the mana cost is the balancing. Otherwise, they'd need nerfs of some kind like damage nerfs or cooldown increases of some kind. Shamans get Water Shield at level 48 on this server, so not sure what your point is about em. Another Shaman main complaining about Paladins then?

The other classes (Mages/Druids) get a single buff raid-wide without a huge mana cost. Don't see the issue of reducing the downtime of Priests/Paladins with a simple QoL. No need to increase mana or reagent costs of blessings at all tbh.

In case you haven't noticed, Vanilla is not and never has been 'fair' to most classes. Go ask Warriors and Rogues, lmao. Shamans get mail armor while Rogues are stuck in leather yet Rogues are ONLY able to melee while Shamans have two ranged specs? Druids get so much armor that it surpasses that of both Warriors and Paladins who wear Plate armor? The imbalancing is part of the class flavor. We aren't here to perfectly balance EVERYTHING but to make small QoL adjustments.

The vitriol and backlash towards such a simple change is likely why most of these suggestions on the forums get ignored so often. That said, I do appreciate it regardless since the bumping gets more attention and visibility ;)

[Akos1896]

Please fact check first.
Water shield is level 60 and is more situational, specially at PVP.
If I think shamans have struggles (they do, specially enh) so I'm anti paladin apparently.
Shamans don't have two ranged specs unless you count in healer.
You basically said that balance is not so important, fun (qol) is. But then you'd promote your own version of fun while describing everyone else's as bad.
I mean a clown being visible results in a successful sitcom.

[Daedalus007]

Please fact check first.
Water shield is level 60 and is more situational, specially at PVP.
If I think shamans have struggles (they do, specially enh) so I'm anti paladin apparently.
Shamans don't have two ranged specs unless you count in healer.
You basically said that balance is not so important, fun (qol) is. But then you'd promote your own version of fun while describing everyone else's as bad.
I mean a clown being visible results in a successful sitcom.

Hello pot, meet kettle.
This was my source on the water shield information: https://database.turtle-wow.org/?spell=45527
So is that incorrect? If so please let the devs know so the database info can be updated.

The entire purpose of this thread has been for one (maybe two) changes.

1 - extend the duration of existing paladin blessings from 5 to 20 mins and from 15 to 60 mins. I wanted a simple 4x solution but some have asked for 2x or even 3x instead. Any significant duration improvement of even 2x would be welcome though. I'm good with 10 min buffs. Furthermore, the buffs were extended in TBC/WotLK eventually so that was always part of the plan. Again I've already mentioned how the devs themselves have talked about hybrids like Paladin and Shaman and how much of a mistake it was to have 5 minute blessings that didn't get accomodated for vanilla until v1.9.0 (January 2006 timeframe) which was almost exactly a year away from the launch of TBC in January 2007.

2 - reduce the mana cost of priest buffs (fortitude, divine spirit, shadow protection) by 50%

Shamans are in a pretty good spot, especially with the custom changes that have been made to the Enhancement tree. Every class is being worked over, but I feel the fact that Paladins and Priests actively cast useful buffs on others should be under consideration to have a bit of QoL for both.

[Akos1896]

I am not particularly a 'buff shamans, they are weak' guy. They have a very good, almost oppressively good spec in PVE (resto/BL resto) and a good PVP choice (ele).
However, enhancement shamans are laughably weak, both at PVP and PVE.
This has many reasons:
1. Water and earth shield come at level 60 (at least came there 1 year ago; I level many different classes to lvl 60 here to analyze and compare gameplay, did shaman 1 year ago).
2. The talent trees are badly structured. Just like pala, the 3% hit/spell hit talent is in a different tree (for them it's resto). However, it means for them that they can't pick all the talents they need to function properly because those talents are put randomly all over the talent trees (resto for totem mana and hit, ele for shock synergies and deep ele for elemental devastation). This usually results in raider enhancements not having the hit talent. Imagine retris forced to skip hit because paladin talent tree has the talents placed so weirdly that this is their only chance to select the talents reasonably.
2. Enhancement tree was filled with a bunch of tanking talents without shaman having the necessary tools to tank (no taunt, no aoe threat, no mitigation). It takes up a bunch of space at the talent tree. Imagine retris having 20% less impotant talents because random prot, tank-only talents start to appear in the tree.
3. Devs had the idea to let almost all totems be buffed via talents. Some are good, some just take up space instead of really helpful talents. For example guadian totems have a very niche PVP use for the grounding CD reduction but in general 2 more talent points which could be used to create something useful.
4. The custom abilities are either a hit or a miss. Shields are good. Thunderhead, which also takes up one talent point, is totally useless (you can't even put up the shield on a tank for threat because threat goes to you). Bloodlust (this watereddown version) is nice but for utility. Perfect for BL-resto but classic enhancement gets humiliated: finally they receive a damage spike talent and they are expected to BL the fury warrior because their damage is so bad.
5. Totems indeed give a nice buff but they are mostly PVE-relevant. Shamans have no way to protect totems, they get 1-hit 99% of the time during PVP. Imagine totems as buffs which any class can dispell.
6. Despite being a melee class, enhancement has very limited tools of crowd-control. No stun or fear, best they can do is frost shock and flee.
7. I admit, TWOW custom itemization helped a lot. Items are good.
8. Gameplay is actually similar to retri. Enhancement put down totems (blessings), puts up a weapon enhancement (seal), starts auto-attacking. Spams shocks (judgement) and does stormstrike on a 12 sec CD (holy strike) (What retri has 'in exchange' of the shock vs judgement CD difference is crusader strike). But the end result is way worse. Enhancement can't use their biggest damage weapon enhancement an shock because they generate a bunch of extra threat. Imagine retry having seal of the crusader and maybe even holy strike on an almost taunt threat level, gameplay would collapse.

Again, I'm not saying that devs should simp shamans, restos are borderline oppressively good at this pont. But there is a reason people laugh about enhancement shamans (they are classic Vanilla boomkin level of bad), at least in raiding.

You can convince me that 5 min buffs should become 10-15 minute (I am currently leveling a paladin) but I'm kinda convinced that higher blessings should stay 15 minutes or all classes should have an easier time buffing, shamans included. Atreidon made a point with BOP and BOF (if blessings get more expensive for higher duration, using these blessings is punished).

[Daedalus007]

*snip*

1 - Frost shock is spammable (cooldown equal to duration) and slows anyone in PvP (one target at a time) alongside Earthbind totem to slow even more or slow a group.

2 - Enhance shamans have ranged attacks (unlike Ret Paladins) so they aren't as kitable especially with Frost Shock and Earthbind totems. Weapon self-buffs like Windfury on your own weapon cannot be removed by anyone else. Windfury can proc on top of windfury often multiple times. You are the ONLY melee class/spec in the game that can 'one shot' another player from 100% to 0% health in a single attack at equal level/gear levels with no way to counter it other than 'dont get hit'. I get the 'casino' nature of Windfury hence I call the spec 'Enchance' instead of Enhance =D

3 - Totems are POWERFUL and them getting 'one shot' is part of the class design; speaking of dispells Shamans have PURGE which removes not one but TWO beneficial effects from enemy players. Shamans alone can remove ANY effects other than perhaps Divine Shield.

4 - Talent trees need a rework on many classes, both Paladin and Shaman included. For Paladin we still have Divine Strength in the Holy Tree (!) for some stupid reason. They moved Blessing of Kings to the Ret tree on twow and Sanc Aura to the Holy tree. Capstone talent for Retribution are a 6 second incapacitate that breaks on damage, Capstone talent for Prot is a completely useless/worthless talent (if your health drops to 35% or below your healers are messing something up) and Holy's Capstone of Holy Shock is nowhere near as useful as some have claimed. On the Shaman side of things the 'tanking' talents in Enhancement tree are really terrible and useless without proper tanking tools. While I'd prefer it not be a THREE TALENT item in the Protection tree, at least Paladins have some kind of psuedo-taunt on twow.

5 - Enhancement Shamans get a talented 1 second ghost wolf cast time, including being immune to polymorph, sap, and repentance (the paladin Ret capstone talent) while in ghost wolf form.

6 - You seem to be mixing up PvE and PvP to be honest. I still feel PvP balancing should be done completely separate from PvE balancing. It is always the 'but PvP' people that I despise the most. Most players don't give a damn about PvP and the near-death of Tel'Abim and even Nordanaar BGs is evidence enough of that. Keeping PvE gimped just to 'but PvP' is holding both modes back and always has been.

7 - Nothing you've said about Shamans whatsoever has anything to do with the topic of this thread which is to extend Paladin blessing duration at least 2x to 4x more than the default. Neither does it have anything to do with reducing Priest buff spell mana costs by at least 50% or so.

[Akos1896]

*snip*

This might have happened because you somehow made a side-threat by stating that even though paladin and shaman blessings should be buffed, shaman totems should not be. I reacted on that.

[Daedalus007]

This might have happened because you somehow made a side-threat by stating that even though paladin and shaman blessings should be buffed, shaman totems should not be. I reacted on that.

Shamans don't have blessings unless you mean water walk? Lmao.
I didn't make 'threats' of any kind. I've been responding to people cluttering a simple suggestions thread with every excuse under the sun on why 5 minute pally buffs all the way to 60 are 'perfectly fine' because reasons after reasons after excuses on excuses.

I'm not going to bother with even responding to obvious trolls now, as this isn't a Shaman thread and was never meant to be. Shaman mains always gonna Shaman but holy cow it is pretty silly on the forums here. You don't see it the other way around with Paladin mains going in every other class's forum and talking about how OP said class is and that 'things are fine the way it is' or whatever. Just sayin pots and kettles and all that.

Pally buffs from 5 -> 20 and 15 -> 60 would be amazing, but even a 2x increase would be some level of improvement.
Priest also need a 50% mana cost reduction on all their blessings (Fort/SP/DS) since they're often hit the most with those costs when buffing in groups and raids.

[Akos1896]

*side-thread, was a typo

Shamans do have buffs. They come in the form of totems (mostly).

For your original request. While I see some reasoning in making the priest buffs cheaper and I see the advantages of longer paladin buffs at leveling, how do you respond to the points Atreidon has made about greater buffs? Unlike certain someones, he seems to be very experienced with the raid-level paladin gameplay.
Meaning: if buff duration increase comes with cost increase, you discourage a utility aspect of the paladin (quick bop, bof).
You can add duration without mana cost increase if you do this universally for classes to prevent imbalance, but that's just my personal opinion.

[Daedalus007]

Shamans do have buffs. They come in the form of totems (mostly).
For your original request. While I see some reasoning in making the priest buffs cheaper and I see the advantages of longer paladin buffs at leveling, how do you respond to the points Atreidon has made about greater buffs? Unlike certain someones, he seems to be very experienced with the raid-level paladin gameplay.
Meaning: if buff duration increase comes with cost increase, you discourage a utility aspect of the paladin (quick bop, bof).
You can add duration without mana cost increase if you do this universally for classes to prevent imbalance, but that's just my personal opinion.

Totems /=/ buffs. Totems are 'auras' not buffs; they can be removed only if the totem is targeted with non-AoE attacks or otherwise out-ranged. There is a difference. If neither you nor others understand that then I'd doubt your ability to really meaningfully comment on this thread.

Atreidon is using the strawman fallacy to make their point and I saw no benefit to engaging with that. There's no guarantee on how balancing would be done if this was implemented (higher mana or reagent costs). There's no real reason that I could see to alter either mana or reagent costs for 'balance'. People just want to strawman to hate on Paladins and I don't want to engage with those types more than the bare minimum.

I have discussions with people who can reasonably be expected to change their mind. If that isn't possible then no discussion will occur and it is just a fruitless endeavor. This is most eloquently summarized by the internet axiom 'dont feed the trolls'. I do the opposite by not only feeding them but tainting the food with so much poison that they self-combust from the overdose. Also the best way to deal with trolls is fire or acid attacks. Every D&D player knows that ;)

Assumptions by the assholes who assume everyone plays like them and is min-max-meta also fail to realize that they don't know all the characters I play or my experience in this version of the game. Again no point to really engage with those types.

No other classes really need a duration increase on buffs except MAYBE warrior shouts? Even Thorns for Druids is 10 mins long so that could be longer I suppose. Thorns is only needed on tanks (who are taking damage) so casting it on others is not only unnecessary but usually a waste of mana. Warrior shouts are built around the rage mechanic and I've already gone at length about how much I despise such a shoddy broken system that works directly at odds with the mana mechanic of every healer in the game. It leads to situations where healers have to stop to drink while Warriors and Druids are directly punished if they stop for even a minute to allow them to do so.

If you feel any other classes require 2x to 4x duration increases on self-buffs or group-buffs then please enlighten me as I'm unaware of it at this time. Like the only one I'd want to increase other than Druid Thorns is maybe Priest's Shadow Protection buff but again that's situational and not really needed to be always-buffed. Paladins are the only class in the game with nearly-universal buffs that benefit everyone (kings/salv/light) and class-specific ones (wisdom/might) that drastically increase the effectiveness of the entire group when applied properly. If you don't feel that a 30% buffer for dps to 'go crazy with your dps' isn't a massive awesome and necessary boon to them then I don't know if it is even worth continuing this line of discussion. Shamans, by contrast, get 'Tranquil Air' totem which is not only shared with the ever-popular Windfury and Grace of Air totems but also has a range limit that takes a nosedive on high-mobility boss fights.

Blessing of Protection and Freedom are extremely situational. Blessing of Protection is a failure of the DPS to monitor their threat, NOT a Paladin problem. Blessing of Freedom is a failure of the DPS to bring a Free Action Potion and pre-pot it in time, again NOT a Paladin problem. If someone claims to have more raiding experience but ignores these simple things, then they have no clue what they're talking about and I question their knowledge of the game itself. We'll have to agree to disagree on that aspect.

I've done plenty of endgame and NOT ONCE in raiding anything has there been a 100% need to BoP or BoF anyone for any reason; Paladins aren't a thing in Horde groups on standard non-cross-faction vanilla servers so they'd need to be able to do the content without these 'utility' tools. That's what threat meters and Free Action Potions are for. The utility is there, but because it is not a 'hand' like in WotLK it goes unused in most raid encounters. As one of the assholes might put it: "Stop being cheap and drink a FAP and just stfu".

I fully stand by what I originally posted and my subsequent posts in this thread. If good-faith discussion is in place then I'll engage with that but otherwise don't bother.

Finally, your passive-aggressive bullshit is noted and rebuked. If you want a discussion then the ad-homs need to be left at the door. This isn't fucking Reddit.

[Akos1896]

Match now, will destroy your sorry backside later.

[Werefox]

Even Thorns for Druids is 10 mins long

Erm... You do know that druids shapeshift? I'm asking because with the level of game knowledge you've demonstrated so far you could easily miss this fact and its implications.

Warrior shouts are built around the rage mechanic and I've already gone at length about how much I despise such a shoddy broken system that works directly at odds with the mana mechanic of every healer in the game.

And as if any further proof was needed you call shoddy and broken one of the few systems that work precisely as intended. Infinite resource classes ramp up working against their respective throttle (e.g. having to build rage), finite resource classes unload and shut down - and these two lines jointly form the combat envelope against which every pull is balanced.
------------------------------

By the way that is the real issue that kills any attempt to fix the Paladin: the fact that this class is both finite resource and is throttled via judgement mechanics. The original design for Paladin was to build up seals - using the mechanics that we saw much later under the name of Death Knight's runes - but they never had time to work it out. Paladin was hastily converted to use mana and the rest is history.

But let us whine about fixing non broken buffs instead.

[Akos1896]

Okay. So first things first, I apologize for the language I used. You provoke but I do not want to become a bully.

To the statements you have mentioned:
1. Totems are auras, not blessings
If you imply that totems are auras like the paladin auras (which is the other aura I am aware of in the game), it becomes false. As a paladin I have a set of auras, select one and it gets applied to the party for free. As a shaman, summoning a totem costs mana, actually a lot. Usually you use 2-3 elements at once and since totems usually have 1-2 min of uptime and they have a limited radius, you usually put down 2-3 of them every minute. Compared to the blessings, you bless 5x every 5 min (dungeon run example). Totemwise, you summon 10-15 totems every 5 min. That's part of the shaman mana problems but I agree, the topic is not about shaman problems. This is just to prove that if you want a universal buff 'buff', you need to include all who need it, including shamans. You tend to say how everyone is a troll hating on paladins. I kinda see it the opposite way, though. Personally I don't hate paladins, I just like balance. I only hate certain paladins (just like certain shamans).
'People just want to strawman to hate on Paladins and I don't want to engage with those types more than the bare minimum.'
I mention this. You tend to see phantoms at places where no phantoms exist.

2. BoP, BoF are not needed if the team plays/consumes properly. In an ideal world, yes. But come on! If I take this mentality, bring my shaman and refuse to use poison cleansing at Huhuran saying that 'you guys should level first aid', 10/10 guilds would gkick me and they would be right. You use extremely selfish reasoning in a game based on social interactions.
'Assumptions by the assholes who assume everyone plays like them and is min-max-meta also fail to realize that they don't know all the characters I play or my experience in this version of the game. Again no point to really engage with those types.'
This. Then you expect the same 'ássholes' to play and consume perfectly so they don't need BoP and BoF.

[Ravenstone]

By the way that is the real issue that kills any attempt to fix the Paladin: the fact that this class is both finite resource and is throttled via judgement mechanics. The original design for Paladin was to build up seals - using the mechanics that we saw much later under the name of Death Knight's runes - but they never had time to work it out. Paladin was hastily converted to use mana and the rest is history.

Source? I've never heard that before. Also can you explain how they are throttled via judgement mechanics? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying there.

[Daedalus007]

By the way that is the real issue that kills any attempt to fix the Paladin: the fact that this class is both finite resource and is throttled via judgement mechanics. The original design for Paladin was to build up seals - using the mechanics that we saw much later under the name of Death Knight's runes - but they never had time to work it out. Paladin was hastily converted to use mana and the rest is history.

Source? I've never heard that before. Also can you explain how they are throttled via judgement mechanics? I'm not sure I understand what you are saying there.

Yes I'd also like a source on this because I've never heard or seen this written or said by any WoW Vanilla game developer all the way in interviews up to pre-Cata discussing these aspects.

1. Totems are auras, not blessings

Some 'auras' do cost mana but I'm not talking only about Paladin auras; in fact, the main point of me using the word 'aura' is that individual people/classes don't need to be targeted to be buffed. A paladin needs to target one of every class to do greater blessings and every single person individually to do standard blessings. Shamans don't need to worry about this, but yeah the totem mana cost is quite a bit. Many shamans end up ignoring fire totems and only do Strength of Earth and Windfury Totems, maybe Mana Totem as well if it is a bit of a longer fight. Now I'd personally be ok with them cutting Shaman Totem costs by 50% globally as that would help quite a bit towards mana issues. However, the main issue with that though is that Shamans get Water Shield at 48 according to the Twow database; it is in the game because it shows which trainers will train that skill. If totems aren't draining their mana and they have water shield and a mana totem then it makes it much more difficult to defeat them with how powerful and tanky their defenses already are (grounding totem, mail armor, powerful healing even in off-specs).

2. BoP, BoF are not needed if the team plays/consumes properly. In an ideal world, yes. But come on! If I take this mentality, bring my shaman and refuse to use poison cleansing at Huhuran saying that 'you guys should level first aid', 10/10 guilds would gkick me and they would be right. You use extremely selfish reasoning in a game based on social interactions.

Bringing Free Action Potions and Elemental Protection Potions (Fire, Arcane, Nature, etc) to raids is a normal and expected part of raiding. The issue with asking people to use the First Aid anti-venom MID COMBAT is that doing so takes up valuable time and lowers your raid's DPS outputs. DPS aren't very well known for thinking more than they need to. Also to my knowledge the Anti-Venoms dont work on ALL poisons or some raid boss abilities. There's a few of em that they should remove but don't do so. The Paladin/Druid/Shaman poison removals handle them just fine though. Healing and debuffing is generally assigned as the responsibility of others (usually healers) rather than the DPS. For fights that spam curses on the DPS, Mages often have to help with Decursing since healers are generally busy keeping health up. Paladins literally cannot remove curses but can remove everything else. Was in a ZG pug once and the group wiped (twice) on the spider boss because not enough poison dispellers. I offered to help with poison dispel and that was all it took for them to win the fight. Sometimes dispelling debuffs makes you more of an MVP than you may realize :)

'Assumptions by the assholes who assume everyone plays like them and is min-max-meta also fail to realize that they don't know all the characters I play or my experience in this version of the game. Again no point to really engage with those types.'
This. Then you expect the same 'ássholes' to play and consume perfectly so they don't need BoP and BoF.

As I stated, neither BoP nor BoF are 100% required or frequent-enough for any of the game's PvE content (not gonna discuss PvP here). The only reason I even mentioned those is because they were being used (in a strawman roundabout method) of being a detriment to Paladins if the mana costs are increased on blessings to 'compensate' their longer duration. It wouldn't hurt the game to turn them into 'Hand' spells like what happened in WotLK so this would be completely mitigated. Hand of Freedom, Hand of Protection, Hand of Sacrifice.

That said, sacrificing the regular blessing in exchange for using Freedom/Protection/etc is part of the 'balance' of vanilla. Modifying that would require other changes and then we get people complaining about how OP Paladins are and blah blah.

I'd honestly love to see some of these 'database' spells become real:
Blessing of Fury
Blessing of Reckoning
Blessing of Righteousness

Having other paladins doing Blessing of Fury on the tank, be it themselves or someone else (and using it consecutively depending on how many paladins are in group/raid).
Blessing of Reckoning seems a bit odd since Judgement of Light exists, however it would be a nice option to cast explicitly on the tank to help them with some extra health regen for a bit.
Blessing of Righteousness desperately needs a rename (Blessing of the AshBringer maybe lmao). Having +AP against undead as a castable temporary blessing buff would be a nice bit, though the buff has to be significantly better if it is gonna be so temporary.

[Werefox]

Source? I've never heard that before.

Please. They would tell repeatedly (and with great pride) how they brought about DK by bolting together existing subsystems that were intended for different classes but never made it into the Alpha. It is not super hard to figure out which class was supposed to spread diseases and which was supposed to operate on the twisted mix of rage and energy bars masquerading as Guitar Hero.

Also can you explain how they are throttled via judgement mechanics?

Do you think tying taunt to JoJ was a great idea? That is the most pure form of throttling imaginable.

[Atreidon]

We are getting super off topic, but i guess the blessings are discussed ad nauseum.

The judgement of justice taunt is imo actually a great implementation of a taunt. I never liked something as powerful as a taunt to just be "free". The paladin taunt is a much more skilltesting implementation of a taunt than the warriors.

It also offers some very valuable upsides. Since it uses judgement, it has a much better hitchance than the other classes taunts. You can easily itemize to a 100% hitchance. Thats very important, as we dont have aoe taunt in case our taunt misses.

It also boasts a very handy 10 yard range. Paladin can taunt mobs that have already ran away. Knocked you out of melee range etc.

The more you use it, the more you realize how strong it actually is.

Also there is something to be said about the fact that every class needs the ability to taunt for certain fights. But not all classes have to do it the same way. Each class having better & worse aspects about their taunt keeps the classes excitingly unique

[Akos1896]

Hmm. The counter-argument for poison cleansing is absolutely fair.

[Werefox]

Thats very important, as we dont have aoe taunt in case our taunt misses.

It is called BoP.

Also there is something to be said about the fact that every class needs the ability to taunt for certain fights. But not all classes have to do it the same way. Each class having better & worse aspects about their taunt keeps the classes excitingly unique

Unfortunately they do have to do it the same way. The end game content was designed at the time one class was deliberately given absolute monopoly on tanking, and it was designed around the idiosyncrasies of that class. At this point any other class considered for end game tanking is bound to reproduce it to a T.

That, or some volunteer redesigns all of the raids.

[Atreidon]

Thats very important, as we dont have aoe taunt in case our taunt misses.

It is called BoP.

Also there is something to be said about the fact that every class needs the ability to taunt for certain fights. But not all classes have to do it the same way. Each class having better & worse aspects about their taunt keeps the classes excitingly unique

Unfortunately they do have to do it the same way. The end game content was designed at the time one class was deliberately given absolute monopoly on tanking, and it was designed around the idiosyncrasies of that class. At this point any other class considered for end game tanking is bound to reproduce it to a T.

That, or some volunteer redesigns all of the raids.

BoP & taunt are very different effcts. Bop saves one player, but endangers everyone else. Taunt endangers you but saves everyone else. In raidfights where you have to rely on taunts (wing buffet from bwl drakes or horsemen come to mind), if your only taunt gets resisted you are in a very dire situation. And thats not fixable by BoP.

On the other hand. Every single fight that demands taunts as a tactic can be done just fine by just not wasting judgement

You can anticipate what will happen. For instance when sartura is about to whirl, im precasting joj and taunt her right as she fucks off

The only times where palataunt is lackluster is on manaburn or if another tank died unexpectedly or a dps ripped threat unexpectedly. The current taunt does work just fine for 99% of applications. And the renaining cases are fringe enough where we need no further class homogenisation. Paly tank taunt works well enough to beat the game

[Werefox]

BoP & taunt are very different effcts. Bop saves one player, but endangers everyone else.

No, not "everybody else". Aggro is not some sort of chaotic mystery. BoP turns the mob's attention to the second person on their aggro list. Which should be you, unless you were tanking afk. And that is functional equivalent of taunt, except you can also use it when somebody else is tanking.

[Atreidon]

BoP & taunt are very different effcts. Bop saves one player, but endangers everyone else.

No, not "everybody else". Aggro is not some sort of chaotic mystery. BoP turns the mob's attention to the second person on their aggro list. Which should be you, unless you were tanking afk. And that is functional equivalent of taunt, except you can also use it when somebody else is tanking.

Its a functional equivalent of a taunt in 5 man content - the type of content paladin does fine in even without a taunt. In every single raid bossfight that requires taunts to actually beat, bopping the previous tank will get your raid killed...

[Werefox]

In every single raid bossfight that requires taunts to actually beat, bopping the previous tank will get your raid killed...

Well, I already mentioned the end-game design problem. You have to be exact copy of a warrior or you cannot tank end-game.

[Atreidon]

In every single raid bossfight that requires taunts to actually beat, bopping the previous tank will get your raid killed...

Well, I already mentioned the end-game design problem. You have to be exact copy of a warrior or you cannot tank end-game.

I am currently not an exact copy of warrior and i do tank endgame
Paladin tank works. It just has unique upsides & downsides compared to warrior