Toxic PvP?

[Chappinhas3000]

understand your feeling, lost my HC, Turtlemode, Exaustion lvl 27 today after a lvl 57 decided he wanted to 2shot me, i'm not warmode, simply aggroed a sentinel by accident, i really don't understand the pleasure in 2 shoting low lvls. Anyways, made for a very bad experience and i must now have a break of wow. What saddns me is that there are so many that act like high lvls killing low lvls is good pvp content, when the real fun is going against your own tier.

[Jambiya]

understand your feeling, lost my HC, Turtlemode, Exaustion lvl 27 today after a lvl 57 decided he wanted to 2shot me, i'm not warmode, simply aggroed a sentinel by accident, i really don't understand the pleasure in 2 shoting low lvls. Anyways, made for a very bad experience and i must now have a break of wow. What saddns me is that there are so many that act like high lvls killing low lvls is good pvp content, when the real fun is going against your own tier.

It’s not so many, just a constant vocal minority that likes to troll and bait reactions out of people. Tons of us here do not gank and would have left you alone.

I would say that part of the challenge of hardcore is bearing the consequence of mistakes, be it pulling to much or accidental flagging (consequence of that being possible pvp).

It sucks but that’s also part of the risk (albeit a low one) that would exist on any server, pve or pvp.

[Chappinhas3000]

It’s not so many, just a constant vocal minority that likes to troll and bait reactions out of people. Tons of us here do not gank and would have left you alone.

I would say that part of the challenge of hardcore is bearing the consequence of mistakes, be it pulling to much or accidental flagging (consequence of that being possible pvp).

See that's just it, despite being a small percentage, everytime it happens it sucks, for the killer it's just another low lvl stomp, for the ganked it's a death, and in my case a permanent one. I do not call high lvl killing low lvl pvp, it is a design flaw of the original game, results in an insurmountable interaction where the only result will be death, it saddns me that so many do not see the problem.

If the pvp is good, you always feel like there was something more you could've done, you can place the blame on yourself and get out feeling confindent in the time you expended on the character, where as with the highlvl-lowlvl situation, you just feel bad and even frustrated.

I still believe this problem could be solved by limiting interaction range to 3-5 lvls, at least it would give a chance to run away. If nothing else, it could exist only for ironman and even be disabled in warmode.

My point stands, a regular high level character killing a low level ironman character is not something i call "pvp" nor is it fun.

[Jambiya]

It’s not so many, just a constant vocal minority that likes to troll and bait reactions out of people. Tons of us here do not gank and would have left you alone.

I would say that part of the challenge of hardcore is bearing the consequence of mistakes, be it pulling to much or accidental flagging (consequence of that being possible pvp).

See that's just it, despite being a small percentage, everytime it happens it sucks, for the killer it's just another low lvl stomp, for the ganked it's a death, and in my case a permanent one. I do not call high lvl killing low lvl pvp, it is a design flaw of the original game, results in an insurmountable interaction where the only result will be death, it saddns me that so many do not see the problem.

If the pvp is good, you always feel like there was something more you could've done, you can place the blame on yourself and get out feeling confindent in the time you expended on the character, where as with the highlvl-lowlvl situation, you just feel bad and even frustrated.

I still believe this problem could be solved by limiting interaction range to 3-5 lvls, at least it would give a chance to run away. If nothing else, it could exist only for ironman and even be disabled in warmode.

My point stands, a regular high level character killing a low level ironman character is not something i call "pvp" nor is it fun.

I agree. I’m not a fan of greifing either, but there is a grey area between a getting ganked once (which I don’t mind) and getting greifed for 30mins straight (which I detest as that will ultimately drive people away). Unfortunately since you were hc that single encounter ended it. This might be where our personal perspectives disagree.

But that’s also part of the challenge since interacting with the sentinel falls under the umbrella of a natural occurrence. If you were tricked into flagging and killed, you could get that griefer banned under the server rules.

Either way your suggestion on level restrictions in wpvp encounters would be a beautiful thing, but idk if that’s possible with the client.

[Afaslizo]

I will reply in short, there is no plans for FFA PvP zones yet, but there is Gurubashi Arena that is Similar.

On a brighter note, having 1 big Open World PvP zone would attract all PvPers to hangout there, leaving the world free for . . . your kind ? since battlegrounds dont happen that often, people tend to grief in the open.

Having 1 zone where all the PvP players could go and do their things, would do only good in my opinion, even RP wise, since taht zone would be a Warzone ( The game is called world of WARcraft )

I totally respect that you dislike PvP, and nobody is forcing you to take part in it. On the other hand, you are trying to force us to not take part in it either.

Let me finish with the fact that Turtle is not any PvE server, its a server with Unique features which is the reason so many people keep coming here.

As you can see, all other PvE servers died out, and soon the PvP servers will follow.

Actually Turtle-WoW was priced out as RP-PvE over the years. Now they dropped it and server community for sure follows down swiftly. It shifts from fun together towards fun at the cost of others. PvP is the most likely culprit because pvp-changes are the drain for pvp-players around. PvP is the game mode most likely to grief other players thus toxitiy is much higher.

You may actually see mutiple accounts of pvp being forced on players on discord, the forums and even in this thread so I don't know where your illusions come from.

Before WoW there was Warcraft and it had an optional pvp in form of multiplayer. There was War in the name but no forced pvp. In fact that was a complete seperate game mode. Fight in your battlegrounds and inside the arena. Have fun there or on dedicated pvp servers. Leave the pve-players a roleplay pve server. Hell if you want to you could even both play pve here and pvp on another server. They are not dying as far as I see it. You do not have to force your pvp on a pve-rp server.

[Valadorn]

I will reply in short, there is no plans for FFA PvP zones yet, but there is Gurubashi Arena that is Similar.

On a brighter note, having 1 big Open World PvP zone would attract all PvPers to hangout there, leaving the world free for . . . your kind ? since battlegrounds dont happen that often, people tend to grief in the open.

Having 1 zone where all the PvP players could go and do their things, would do only good in my opinion, even RP wise, since taht zone would be a Warzone ( The game is called world of WARcraft )

I totally respect that you dislike PvP, and nobody is forcing you to take part in it. On the other hand, you are trying to force us to not take part in it either.

Let me finish with the fact that Turtle is not any PvE server, its a server with Unique features which is the reason so many people keep coming here.

As you can see, all other PvE servers died out, and soon the PvP servers will follow.

Actually Turtle-WoW was priced out as RP-PvE over the years. Now they dropped it and server community for sure follows down swiftly. It shifts from fun together towards fun at the cost of others. PvP is the most likely culprit because pvp-changes are the drain for pvp-players around. PvP is the game mode most likely to grief other players thus toxitiy is much higher.

You may actually see mutiple accounts of pvp being forced on players on discord, the forums and even in this thread so I don't know where your illusions come from.

Before WoW there was Warcraft and it had an optional pvp in form of multiplayer. There was War in the name but no forced pvp. In fact that was a complete seperate game mode. Fight in your battlegrounds and inside the arena. Have fun there or on dedicated pvp servers. Leave the pve-players a roleplay pve server. Hell if you want to you could even both play pve here and pvp on another server. They are not dying as far as I see it. You do not have to force your pvp on a pve-rp server.

Alright, I will tell you why you are wrong :)

Firstly RP-PvE server doesnt mean that you cant turn on PvP manually or that you cant participate in battlegrounds, that would be a terrible design. Saying that PvP ruined the game is pretty stupid aswell, since I met more toxic PvE players, lots of Drama over loot, lots of Ninja looters, lots of blames towards Tanks / healers. lots of swearing, taking Warmode and insulting anyone daring to even accidentally hit them. Lots of PvE players, especially high geared one love murdering low lvl ppl with the glyph for the sole reason that they have the glyph. Let me explain it to you again, with the glyph, you can be attacked, you still CAN'T attack unflagged people.

Just bcz you have seen 2 titles on the forum, seems you didnt even read the context. One person got flagged for being attacked by guards ( this flags you on even the harcorest PvE servers ), the other person got flagged for Buffing a flagged person ( which again flags you on any PvE server too )

Now, the second " M " from MMORPG stands for Multiplayer, WoW doesnt have a single player mode. If you are looking for that, you should probably keep playing single player games. ( I will point out to you, that there is a separate PvP mode which you are crying about for some reason ). You are just delusional, honestly crying about something that doesnt affect you ?

Why do you do this ? why do you keep crying about something that only affects those that want to be affected ? Are you doing it for attention ? Do you hate everyone that enjoys PvP that much ? Why not just enjoy your PvE content and keep hitting those static NPCs and leave us alone ? There are as many, if not more toxic players in PvE, PvP wise all I see is 2-3 being jerks and everyone cries about " Boohoo - pvp community bad, they should all be removed "

Now why dont u go and mind your own business ? As much as you have every right to play the game the way you want, so does everyone else. All you will acomplish with posts like this is turn the PvP community against the PvE community, which will result in more toxic behavior. Be reasonable, and instead of calling the person that killed you names, ask him nicely to leave you alone and he will most likely leave.

[Monmothma21]

...why do you keep crying about something that only affects those that want to be affected ?...

Thats true, but to an extent. The example of it is the person that lost his Hardcore character after being flagged by an enemy Guard NPC, that you mentioned already. He was unflagged and didnt want to get affected, but he was anyway. Because he wasnt careful enough. Unflaggin still requires you to be careful with what you do, where do you go and whom you interract with. The other example would be me being attacked before, when i probably wasnt careful enough either and, "may or may not", performed some unsolicited AOE warrior shouting that made me attackable.
Im not sure, and i dont really want to discuss stuff like this on the forum too much, but can you potentialy grief using that?(for example, getting in to other unflagged person's AOE or something equialy silly)

When i suggested the "game mode switch" before and said that PVE/RP mode should make you unable to participate in PvP i ment that you should be excluded of "the need to be careful and gauge your step at all times". There should not be ways to flag yourself or fight anyone(except for duels i guess) in this mode, at all. You should be 100% safe from any kind of PvP, wanted or unwanted. Thats what i ment by it.
PvP does not bother me much, but people that dont want/like(highly against) PvP usually dont care about it at all. Could they just have a way to completly exclude themselfs from it? There obviosly should be limitations, like having to go to an NPC to switch, or unable to change your game mode if you are in PVP challenge mode. Not being able to help normal or flagged people also could be a thing. You could make Hardcore players be excluded from it too, for hardcore reasons. You could even make this switching cost some coins, where player would have to pay to have it or even have a "subscription fee" via daily quest? You can justify it being a paid service by saying that "someone needs to fight, and if you dont want to you could atleast help sponsor the War Efforts and support your fellow countryman that fight on the frontlines". That would be pretty PVE/RP thing to do, at least in my head it is. Would something like that work?

Addition1: i dont know if its technicaly possible, but if devs could make it in to a "subscription based" service could they also track how many players used it? Get [subscription fee] and multiply it by X, where X is the amount of players that used the service this month, and, once per month, redistribute the resulted sum of money between top 10 bestest pvpers of your faction? Or you could have PVP events where this will be a bonus prize.

[Afaslizo]

No idea why you need to be toxic but here we go:

Alright, I will tell you why you are wrong :)

The only two sphere of humanity obsessed with right and wrong are theology and mathematics. The first is dogma, the second laws. This is a forum and every discussion is about opinions. Game mechanics apart from hardcoding is a matter of choice of use. You are trying to make the choice for everyone. Good job.

Firstly RP-PvE server doesnt mean that you cant turn on PvP manually or that you cant participate in battlegrounds, that would be a terrible design. Saying that PvP ruined the game is pretty stupid aswell, since I met more toxic PvE players, lots of Drama over loot, lots of Ninja looters, lots of blames towards Tanks / healers. lots of swearing, taking Warmode and insulting anyone daring to even accidentally hit them. Lots of PvE players, especially high geared one love murdering low lvl ppl with the glyph for the sole reason that they have the glyph. Let me explain it to you again, with the glyph, you can be attacked, you still CAN'T attack unflagged people.

Just bcz you have seen 2 titles on the forum, seems you didnt even read the context. One person got flagged for being attacked by guards ( this flags you on even the harcorest PvE servers ), the other person got flagged for Buffing a flagged person ( which again flags you on any PvE server too )

So you are trying the numbergame now and claim that you have seen far more instances of toxic pve-behavior than I have seen toxic pvp-behavior without presenting sources for your claims? If you want to play that game sources will surely present themselves. Gather yours and I gather mine and I am sure we can reach an empirical proof for one awnser.

Now, the second " M " from MMORPG stands for Multiplayer, WoW doesnt have a single player mode. If you are looking for that, you should probably keep playing single player games. ( I will point out to you, that there is a separate PvP mode which you are crying about for some reason ). You are just delusional, honestly crying about something that doesnt affect you ?

Why do you do this ? why do you keep crying about something that only affects those that want to be affected ? Are you doing it for attention ? Do you hate everyone that enjoys PvP that much ? Why not just enjoy your PvE content and keep hitting those static NPCs and leave us alone ? There are as many, if not more toxic players in PvE, PvP wise all I see is 2-3 being jerks and everyone cries about " Boohoo - pvp community bad, they should all be removed "

Now why dont u go and mind your own business ? As much as you have every right to play the game the way you want, so does everyone else. All you will acomplish with posts like this is turn the PvP community against the PvE community, which will result in more toxic behavior. Be reasonable, and instead of calling the person that killed you names, ask him nicely to leave you alone and he will most likely leave.

Now you try the emotional and degeratory language. Trying to slander other people's opinions as crying because you do not agree with them, putting forward unproven numbers and calling them facts and trying to dictate others how they have to behave themselves and best never make their opinion clear as if you are a despot are in my opinion core elements of toxic behavior. Next point would be you trying to make this about yourself as speaker of the masses and me as a lonely misguided soul.

If you are interested in a real discussion use the proper language.

Aside from that Multiplayer does not have to be pvp. Dark Age of Camelot and Lord of the Rings Online both are MMORPGs with clearly defined pve and pvp areas or modes which do not blend together like in Warcraft. I like the lore of Warcraft and of this server and the rp-pve focus. For me the pvp-focused recent toxic behavior diminishes the feeling and thus I lobby for a clearer cut between pvp and pve. Just like it is in those other mmorpgs I named.

[Valadorn]

No idea why you need to be toxic but here we go:

Alright, I will tell you why you are wrong :)

The only two sphere of humanity obsessed with right and wrong are theology and mathematics. The first is dogma, the second laws. This is a forum and every discussion is about opinions. Game mechanics apart from hardcoding is a matter of choice of use. You are trying to make the choice for everyone. Good job.

Firstly RP-PvE server doesnt mean that you cant turn on PvP manually or that you cant participate in battlegrounds, that would be a terrible design. Saying that PvP ruined the game is pretty stupid aswell, since I met more toxic PvE players, lots of Drama over loot, lots of Ninja looters, lots of blames towards Tanks / healers. lots of swearing, taking Warmode and insulting anyone daring to even accidentally hit them. Lots of PvE players, especially high geared one love murdering low lvl ppl with the glyph for the sole reason that they have the glyph. Let me explain it to you again, with the glyph, you can be attacked, you still CAN'T attack unflagged people.

Just bcz you have seen 2 titles on the forum, seems you didnt even read the context. One person got flagged for being attacked by guards ( this flags you on even the harcorest PvE servers ), the other person got flagged for Buffing a flagged person ( which again flags you on any PvE server too )

So you are trying the numbergame now and claim that you have seen far more instances of toxic pve-behavior than I have seen toxic pvp-behavior without presenting sources for your claims? If you want to play that game sources will surely present themselves. Gather yours and I gather mine and I am sure we can reach an empirical proof for one awnser.

Now, the second " M " from MMORPG stands for Multiplayer, WoW doesnt have a single player mode. If you are looking for that, you should probably keep playing single player games. ( I will point out to you, that there is a separate PvP mode which you are crying about for some reason ). You are just delusional, honestly crying about something that doesnt affect you ?

Why do you do this ? why do you keep crying about something that only affects those that want to be affected ? Are you doing it for attention ? Do you hate everyone that enjoys PvP that much ? Why not just enjoy your PvE content and keep hitting those static NPCs and leave us alone ? There are as many, if not more toxic players in PvE, PvP wise all I see is 2-3 being jerks and everyone cries about " Boohoo - pvp community bad, they should all be removed "

Now why dont u go and mind your own business ? As much as you have every right to play the game the way you want, so does everyone else. All you will acomplish with posts like this is turn the PvP community against the PvE community, which will result in more toxic behavior. Be reasonable, and instead of calling the person that killed you names, ask him nicely to leave you alone and he will most likely leave.

Now you try the emotional and degeratory language. Trying to slander other people's opinions as crying because you do not agree with them, putting forward unproven numbers and calling them facts and trying to dictate others how they have to behave themselves and best never make their opinion clear as if you are a despot are in my opinion core elements of toxic behavior. Next point would be you trying to make this about yourself as speaker of the masses and me as a lonely misguided soul.

If you are interested in a real discussion use the proper language.

Aside from that Multiplayer does not have to be pvp. Dark Age of Camelot and Lord of the Rings Online both are MMORPGs with clearly defined pve and pvp areas or modes which do not blend together like in Warcraft. I like the lore of Warcraft and of this server and the rp-pve focus. For me the pvp-focused recent toxic behavior diminishes the feeling and thus I lobby for a clearer cut between pvp and pve. Just like it is in those other mmorpgs I named.

Cool, so let's both play the part of the game we enjoy, how about that ? :)

[Afaslizo]

Alright, I understand that you are not interested in honest discussion. Since you enjoy the part which destroys my part enjoyment has been severely diminished. I understand that you are happy about that.

[Valadorn]

Alright, I understand that you are not interested in honest discussion. Since you enjoy the part which destroys my part enjoyment has been severely diminished. I understand that you are happy about that.

Look man, you are saying that the part that I enjoy should be removed and you just refuse to read or understand what I am trying to say. I tried nicely, I tried a harsher tone. I am not sure what else to say.

Pvp is not mandatory, and I Just dont understand why you act like it is.

[Afaslizo]

No, I am writing that there are tons of pvp-servers out there which are active. And that the recent pvp-friendly updates led to an abundance of toxic behavior on the server. Thus I suggest that either the divide is enforced with game mechanics to avoid griefing or that people like you who want to pvp go to a pvp-server because obviously pve is not important for you.

[Valadorn]

No worries, I yield. You just refuse to understand. I am sorry, I cant force you to understand, just as people cant be forced into PvP. I hope you will understand one day.

[Afaslizo]

I know that you believe to be some kind of church and thus need to present your opinion as dogma. I prefer science over religion and thus will never just believe what any fanatic tells me.

[Kiwijello]

No, I am writing that there are tons of pvp-servers out there which are active. And that the recent pvp-friendly updates led to an abundance of toxic behavior on the server. Thus I suggest that either the divide is enforced with game mechanics to avoid griefing or that people like you who want to pvp go to a pvp-server because obviously pve is not important for you.

You said what I wanted to say. Loved this server until the PVP crap started. Now it's almost as toxic as retail. I mean, just look at this whole topic. It's spilled over into the game. The Newcomer guild is so spammed with arguing, you can't even help newbies by answering questions. People are being bullied. And I will say it point blank: It's the new people doing it.

Frankly, I would start paying a monthly sub if they would make them go back the where they came from.

[Pfwg]

Loved this server until the PVP crap started.

This is my Turtle experience in a nutshell. It's probably not the same PvP crap as you're talking about, but still the same problem.

[Karrados]

No, I am writing that there are tons of pvp-servers out there which are active. And that the recent pvp-friendly updates led to an abundance of toxic behavior on the server. Thus I suggest that either the divide is enforced with game mechanics to avoid griefing or that people like you who want to pvp go to a pvp-server because obviously pve is not important for you.

You said what I wanted to say. Loved this server until the PVP crap started. Now it's almost as toxic as retail. I mean, just look at this whole topic. It's spilled over into the game. The Newcomer guild is so spammed with arguing, you can't even help newbies by answering questions. People are being bullied. And I will say it point blank: It's the new people doing it.

Frankly, I would start paying a monthly sub if they would make them go back the where they came from.

I pretty much left the Newcomers guild on most of my Toons because there are a few New Characters (or Players) that try to engage you in a discussion only to call you a Troll or worse if you don't agree with their view/opinion.

But I cannot say for sure if they are old player or new player. All I know is that their toons are low level.

It's pretty much an echo chamber at this point and not exactly a good place for true newcomers to the Server.

[Jambiya]

Didn’t know the newcomers guild was so conflicted as I usually leave it on new toons. Wonder if the hc guild deals with the same issue considering the inherent challenge at hand.

[Merikkinon]

Agreed. I think Newcomers started to fray several months ago, and I stopped having my toons in there. And I suppose it has gotten worse. Might actually work against the server re: new players. I suspect they might do better NOT being in a guild like that.

I suspect 'Still Alive' is nowhere near as toxic as Newcomers. Mainly because few players are doing HC + Warmode. And the vast majority, I think, would police the chat against anyone who was divisive.

But this underscores to me that WM players should really be put into their own guild and blocked from Newcomers. Even if someone is 'new', they really can get help in Warmode Guild. Heck, they can find lowbie warmoders to gank.

[Allwynd01]

( The game is called world of WARcraft )

Haha, that's is pretty stupid. Do you know why?

Stay awhile and listen...

Back in the early 90s, before WarCraft was created, before Blizzard was a name, the game that was to become WarCraft Orcs and Humans, made by Silicon & Synapse, who would later become Blizzard pitched this RTS game to be a Warhammer RTS, the IP holders of Warhammer did not like this and S&S decided to release the game anyways, but change certain things so it becomes their own game - so they basically borrowed everything from Warhammer and Warhammer became WarCraft.

The whole WarCraft IP is basically copy-pasted from Warhammer and repainted enough to avoid a copyright claim from Warhammer. The WarCraft IP only became popular, because the gameplay mechanics of its games were really good, it was never because it was something outstanding.

At least learn the history behind the stuff you use as arguments, because you have zero credibility.



And on the main topic about PvP being toxic - there is a solution - the Turtle team just needs to implement arenas in some way from how they were in TBC and disable any other form of PvP outside of Battlegrounds and Arenas and everything will be alright.

It's already established for over 20 years that PvPers ruin MMORPGs for everyone else. They are like rabid monkeys that need to be isolated from the rest of society and locked in a cage where they can cull each other to extinction.

I personally don't have PvP or PvPers (I actually feel sorry for them... oh, and I'm also not good in PvP), and I would like any MMORPG to be inclusive for both PvPers and PVErs, but there has to be a fine line where each group can't really cross and the only touching points to be Battlegrounds and Arenas.

If a player chooses to make a PvE character, this means they should not be able to be flagged for PvP or in other words participate in PvP in any way outside of Battlegrounds and Arenas, which also means if they pass by a member of their faction fighting in the open world against a member of the opposite faction, they can't buff them or heal them or attack the enemy, all they can do is spectate as they chose to be PvE players.

And if a player chooses to make a PvP character, this means that by no means they can attack a PvE character, even if hell freezes over.

End of story. Anything beyond this is just stupid, pointless drivel. If things continue like this and if they are not favorable for a significant portion of the population, nature will take its course as it always is with these things and what has to happen shall happen - nothing more, nothing less.

The Turtle team just have to sit down and think what kind of audience they want their server to be for.

I used to be here way back when there were 100-150 players and the XP rate was x0.5. I was here when the XP rate was changed to x1 and the population grew to about 300 players. I've seen this server change so much in what it tries to be and what crowd it's trying to attract. First it was the hardcore PvErs who wanted to spend 7 years of their life powerleveling just getting from Northshire Abbey to Westfall. Then it was the Blizzlike XP rates, because as more people played, they found that the x0.5 XP rate was outright unbearable. Then tents were added to increase XP gain even more, which is the complete opposite of what the x0.5 XP rate philosophy was.

Now I don't even know what the goal is.

Personally, I'm here for the Vanilla+ changes to classes, races, the new quests, the new zones, the new items, the new professions and basically the breathing of enough fresh air to provide players with a number of alternative ways to enjoy the game that were previously impossible. I must admit, years ago when I watched videos of the cut content from Vanilla, I was really bummed out and dreamed what it would've been like in a parallel universe when that content was not cut and WoW remained Vanilla+ all the way from 2004 up to now (2022). And then I found out about Turtle WoW out of literally nowhere and when I researched more about it, it felt like my impossible dream was actually becoming a reality.

So back on that - the Turtle WoW team needs to sit down and think what they want to do with their server, because no matter how much Vanilla+ stuff they add to the server, the battle of the e-peens (PvP vs PvE) has the potential to destroy the server.

[Valadorn]

( The game is called world of WARcraft )

Haha, that's is pretty stupid. Do you know why?

Stay awhile and listen...

Back in the early 90s, before WarCraft was created, before Blizzard was a name, the game that was to become WarCraft Orcs and Humans, made by Silicon & Synapse, who would later become Blizzard pitched this RTS game to be a Warhammer RTS, the IP holders of Warhammer did not like this and S&S decided to release the game anyways, but change certain things so it becomes their own game - so they basically borrowed everything from Warhammer and Warhammer became WarCraft.

The whole WarCraft IP is basically copy-pasted from Warhammer and repainted enough to avoid a copyright claim from Warhammer. The WarCraft IP only became popular, because the gameplay mechanics of its games were really good, it was never because it was something outstanding.

At least learn the history behind the stuff you use as arguments, because you have zero credibility.



And on the main topic about PvP being toxic - there is a solution - the Turtle team just needs to implement arenas in some way from how they were in TBC and disable any other form of PvP outside of Battlegrounds and Arenas and everything will be alright.

It's already established for over 20 years that PvPers ruin MMORPGs for everyone else. They are like rabid monkeys that need to be isolated from the rest of society and locked in a cage where they can cull each other to extinction.

I personally don't have PvP or PvPers (I actually feel sorry for them... oh, and I'm also not good in PvP), and I would like any MMORPG to be inclusive for both PvPers and PVErs, but there has to be a fine line where each group can't really cross and the only touching points to be Battlegrounds and Arenas.

If a player chooses to make a PvE character, this means they should not be able to be flagged for PvP or in other words participate in PvP in any way outside of Battlegrounds and Arenas, which also means if they pass by a member of their faction fighting in the open world against a member of the opposite faction, they can't buff them or heal them or attack the enemy, all they can do is spectate as they chose to be PvE players.

And if a player chooses to make a PvP character, this means that by no means they can attack a PvE character, even if hell freezes over.

End of story. Anything beyond this is just stupid, pointless drivel. If things continue like this and if they are not favorable for a significant portion of the population, nature will take its course as it always is with these things and what has to happen shall happen - nothing more, nothing less.

The Turtle team just have to sit down and think what kind of audience they want their server to be for.

I used to be here way back when there were 100-150 players and the XP rate was x0.5. I was here when the XP rate was changed to x1 and the population grew to about 300 players. I've seen this server change so much in what it tries to be and what crowd it's trying to attract. First it was the hardcore PvErs who wanted to spend 7 years of their life powerleveling just getting from Northshire Abbey to Westfall. Then it was the Blizzlike XP rates, because as more people played, they found that the x0.5 XP rate was outright unbearable. Then tents were added to increase XP gain even more, which is the complete opposite of what the x0.5 XP rate philosophy was.

Now I don't even know what the goal is.

Personally, I'm here for the Vanilla+ changes to classes, races, the new quests, the new zones, the new items, the new professions and basically the breathing of enough fresh air to provide players with a number of alternative ways to enjoy the game that were previously impossible. I must admit, years ago when I watched videos of the cut content from Vanilla, I was really bummed out and dreamed what it would've been like in a parallel universe when that content was not cut and WoW remained Vanilla+ all the way from 2004 up to now (2022). And then I found out about Turtle WoW out of literally nowhere and when I researched more about it, it felt like my impossible dream was actually becoming a reality.

So back on that - the Turtle WoW team needs to sit down and think what they want to do with their server, because no matter how much Vanilla+ stuff they add to the server, the battle of the e-peens (PvP vs PvE) has the potential to destroy the server.

Hold up a second, are u telling me that warhammer isnt about war ? Or that warcraft shouldnt be about war ? Or are u saying that warcraft rts wasnt about war ?

I dont get it, how am i stupid for pointing out that warcraft is about war ?

I dont get why any of what u said has to do with the conflict between 2 factions ?

And I dont get why you think that there still exists ppl that dont know that warcraft ripped off warhammer



Oh and pvp is mostly instanced here, pve people can only be attacked if they provoke it. I dont get your point at all


Also, Tell me, by reading this post, doesnt the pvp community get enough hate just bcz there are a couple of mentally challenged people ? Do you rly blame everyone for the actions of a few ?

[Gnomoerectus]

I love all this talk of toxicity when all of the hostility on this forum has been coming from PvE players and is being directed towards PvP players.

Here's a suggestion: if you weant to avoid PvP don't join battlegrounds, don't flag yourself and don't use the Warmode Glyph.
I'm sorry for the hardcore players accidentally flagging themselves and getting killed but once you're flagged anyone can attack you, Warmode or no Warmode, even on a PvE server.

[Kiwijello]

I love all this talk of toxicity when all of the hostility on this forum has been coming from PvE players and is being directed towards PvP players.

Here's a suggestion: if you weant to avoid PvP don't join battlegrounds, don't flag yourself and don't use the Warmode Glyph.
I'm sorry for the hardcore players accidentally flagging themselves and getting killed but once you're flagged anyone can attack you, Warmode or no Warmode, even on a PvE server.

Don't shift it to change the point. The entire point of this is the PVP crowd that recently showed up is toxic compared to the people that were already here. Maybe it has nothing to do with PVP. Maybe they are just jack wagons, but the point stands. The PVP changes to the server brought some jackasses who are making playing unbearable with their constant bullying, arguing, and making everyone miserable.

There is only so much room on ignore. Not to mention, it's a private server. I am betting NONE of these toxic jerks donate a penny, so boot them or the people who have supported the server will leave and then what? It's like watching locus swarm, and when they leave, there is nothing left.

If they can fix the PVP/HC issues, then PVP is fine. The toxic attitudes and bullying is NOT. I don't think they are mutually exclusive, but PVP did seem to bring in some unsavory types who just want to watch the world burn.

[Chopsy]

A change of location for the tent city would be a good idea.

Other than that, you just have to not flag yourself and you'll be fine. If they're engaging in zone disruption, then report them, simple as.

Both sets of players can mingle and coexist just fine.

As for toxicity, most of it will be in World, so turn it off or report people breaking the rules. The GMs are there to help and mute after all.

As for the guy who was hardcore and accidentally flagged when getting too close to a Sentinel, well...that's on you isn't it.

[Valadorn]

If your ignore list is full, you may be the problem.


Pvp was part of the game even before the new patch released.

The new people are coming for the new content pvp is not new. You are just looking for a cullprit instead of admitting that there will always be bad people.

[Kiwijello]

If your ignore list is full, you may be the problem.


Pvp was part of the game even before the new patch released.

The new people are coming for the new content pvp is not new. You are just looking for a cullprit instead of admitting that there will always be bad people.

Ignore list being full is a "figure of speech"

I don't know if it works in your real life, but I have eyes and am fully capable of perceiving things around me. I don't need you to tell me what I can clearly see. The new group of PVP players coming in are (some of them) ass holes.

Looking over this topic, seems like all you want to do is argue that people are wrong because "PVP". Stop making excuses. Yea there will be bad people, but this is a private server, so unless they pony up and contribute to the life of the server, then boot their asses. This isn't retail and no one should have to put up with this crap from some 12 year olds who want to ruin everything around them. Stop using the game as an excuse to let people be horrible.

I am sure your response will be to argue like you did with everything else anybody said. News flash: THAT is toxic and I won't partake. I have said what I wanted to say and nothing you say will change my view. The new crop of players coming in for the PVP have ruined this server and basically jack holes. Enjoy your new friends...

[Valadorn]

" Some of them "

Thats all I wanted to hear.

I am not arguing with the fact that there are plenty of toxic people. I am arguing against the argument that PvP should be removed as a whole.

[Bigdirty]

I didn't real this whole thread because it's just a simple thing, pvp is ALWAYS optional, therefore it can't be toxic, to think otherwise is madness

[Allwynd01]

I dont get it, how am i stupid for pointing out that warcraft is about war ?

Why are you calling yourself stupid?

Also, Tell me, by reading this post, doesnt the pvp community get enough hate just bcz there are a couple of mentally challenged people ? Do you rly blame everyone for the actions of a few ?

Maybe you can go play Gloria Victis or Mortal Online 2 (when it officially launches on January 25, 2022) and after a month come back to tell us of the wholesome experiences you've had in those Open PvP, Full Loot MMORPGs and how it's totally not horrible?

The PvP aspect in any game attracts these people who feel the need to ruin the experience of others, or in other words - have a good time at the expense of others. That's why most games have PvP and PvE servers and those who want to play PvE and chill go to the PvE servers.

PvP would be fine if everyone had the same chance of survival, kinda like FPS games - even if you just started the game, you can destroy professional, veteran players if you have the talent - good reflexes, good aim, good reactions, cool head, brain.

In a game like this even 5 levels are massive difference in power between characters. I would be OK for a game to even have a full loot open world PvP, if it meant I just started and some 40 year old 200kg basement dweller who played the game for 2 years 24/7 comes and attacks me and I manage to take him out.

If that's not the case then the PvP is completely f*cked up and there is no denying it or defending it. You're grasping at straws here.

[Valadorn]

I dont get it, how am i stupid for pointing out that warcraft is about war ?

Why are you calling yourself stupid?

Also, Tell me, by reading this post, doesnt the pvp community get enough hate just bcz there are a couple of mentally challenged people ? Do you rly blame everyone for the actions of a few ?

Maybe you can go play Gloria Victis or Mortal Online 2 (when it officially launches on January 25, 2022) and after a month come back to tell us of the wholesome experiences you've had in those Open PvP, Full Loot MMORPGs and how it's totally not horrible?

The PvP aspect in any game attracts these people who feel the need to ruin the experience of others, or in other words - have a good time at the expense of others. That's why most games have PvP and PvE servers and those who want to play PvE and chill go to the PvE servers.

PvP would be fine if everyone had the same chance of survival, kinda like FPS games - even if you just started the game, you can destroy professional, veteran players if you have the talent - good reflexes, good aim, good reactions, cool head, brain.

In a game like this even 5 levels are massive difference in power between characters. I would be OK for a game to even have a full loot open world PvP, if it meant I just started and some 40 year old 200kg basement dweller who played the game for 2 years 24/7 comes and attacks me and I manage to take him out.

If that's not the case then the PvP is completely f*cked up and there is no denying it or defending it. You're grasping at straws here.

Thats the same argument as if I would tell you, if you want pure PvE games go play something Single Player.

I hope you see how you made no points there.

I dont even think we are talking about the same thing anymore ? Are u still saying WoW pvp should be completly disabled ? or are u saying that kiling grey players is bad behavior ?

Bcz if the first, we still dont agree, if the second, we have been agreeing all along.

I dont remember saying I want hardcore PvP all the time everywhere, all I was saying is that PvP is part of the game, mostly bcz the game is about 2 factions being at war.

[Mcnair]

Valadorn, I think you also see the problem that most long standing players here have already said, but still refuse to acknowledge it. Yes, the problem is not the 'PvP'. The problem is, that a much higher margin of PvP-oriented players are also power- and domination-oriented. The problem I feel as well, playing here for rather long, is that the more PvP-comfort changes are made, the number of such mindset people increases sharply. And PvE players can not just go around the presence of them. The Word chat has such a different mindset nowadays, that I left it on most of my characters. But since that is also the main lifeline of communication, that also severs the people from the main aspect of the game, social interactions. I do not have to be ganked myself to get affected by the changes and the toxicity of the people.
Sadly, after the inclusion of War mode, and even the unreasonable xp boost it gives, the numbers of these elements have increased even more sharply.
The opposite of PvP is not single player, it is cooperation. That was one of the very first changes from vanilla here on Turtle, cross-faction diplomacy. Which is absolutely lore-friendly too. "The mortal races banded together and stood united against the might of the Burning Legion. (...)the tenuous pact between the Horde and the Alliance has all but evaporated." We are not at war. We are still in a pact. There are conflicts, there are probably even skirmishes. But we are not at war.

[Valadorn]

Valadorn, I think you also see the problem that most long standing players here have already said, but still refuse to acknowledge it. Yes, the problem is not the 'PvP'. The problem is, that a much higher margin of PvP-oriented players are also power- and domination-oriented. The problem I feel as well, playing here for rather long, is that the more PvP-comfort changes are made, the number of such mindset people increases sharply. And PvE players can not just go around the presence of them. The Word chat has such a different mindset nowadays, that I left it on most of my characters. But since that is also the main lifeline of communication, that also severs the people from the main aspect of the game, social interactions. I do not have to be ganked myself to get affected by the changes and the toxicity of the people.
Sadly, after the inclusion of War mode, and even the unreasonable xp boost it gives, the numbers of these elements have increased even more sharply.
The opposite of PvP is not single player, it is cooperation. That was one of the very first changes from vanilla here on Turtle, cross-faction diplomacy. Which is absolutely lore-friendly too. "The mortal races banded together and stood united against the might of the Burning Legion. (...)the tenuous pact between the Horde and the Alliance has all but evaporated." We are not at war. We are still in a pact. There are conflicts, there are probably even skirmishes. But we are not at war.

I have a Cross-faction guild that is looking for griefers/campers and hunting them down. We are trying our best to keep the trash out, altough our numbers are small, we do our best to keep high lvl players off-of low level ones, sadly we cant be everywhere, and lets admit that occasional fair PvP is fun and gives immersion to the world. I am just trying to point that removing PvP completly would be a terrible idea. I am totally against killing Grey level players, no matter if they are flagged or not .

I am not supporting Toxic Behavior, I am totally against it and would like to remove anyone thatis toxic. I will be arguing against removing PvP altogether anytime.

[Afaslizo]

I have a Cross-faction guild that is looking for griefers/campers and hunting them down.

Now I understand your view. But has it ever occured to you that by partaking in the system you are as responsible for the toxic fallout as those you hunt? Sure you may gank some gankers and give them a moment pause but they neither loose their character nor learn a different behavior/view from it. They could even feel more justified to do onto others what is done to them in return.

[Jambiya]

I have a Cross-faction guild that is looking for griefers/campers and hunting them down.

Now I understand your view. But has it ever occured to you that by partaking in the system you are as responsible for the toxic fallout as those you hunt? Sure you may gank some gankers and give them a moment pause but they neither loose their character nor learn a different behavior/view from it. They could even feel more justified to do onto others what is done to them in return.

These two points are exactly what I’m brainstorming in the Fugitive Mode suggestion here (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2546)

The ability to not only become a bounty hunter and kill greifers, but also wipe out a percentage of their items/gold and lock them out of play.

If the consequence is firm enough, you can dissuade people from dishonorable kills naturally imo. At the bottom of the post is a quote from the blizzard wow manual that even describes making dishonorable kills have a large penalty on players. I think it be a great thing to implement (even outside my fugitive mode suggestion)

[Afaslizo]

These two points are exactly what I’m brainstorming in the Fugitive Mode suggestion here (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2546)

The ability to not only become a bounty hunter and kill greifers, but also wipe out a percentage of their items/gold and lock them out of play.

If the consequence is firm enough, you can dissuade people from dishonorable kills naturally imo. At the bottom of the post is a quote from the blizzard wow manual that even describes making dishonorable kills have a large penalty on players. I think it be a great thing to implement (even outside my fugitive mode suggestion)

Please do not use my arguments against pvp-caused toxic behavior to justify implementing a mode that motivates player killing, ganking and griefing due to custom content made solely for those who engage in such a behavior. Your ideas reward toxic behavior through additional content centered around it which I do not want to be associated with.