Nerf Scythe of the Harvest but better

[Hutber]

I will try to write everything correctly and briefly, because I don't know English very well.

It’s clear that a level 42 weapon, which is stronger than many weapons from raids in DPS, is a very strange situation.. But also enlivening the game experience, raising online interested players. Looking for something new, trying something.

The biggest problem with this nerf - is the lack of alternatives.

It instantly clicked in my head, we have cacti in the world of two-handed weapons!
This is for example: Shadowbringer and ahem.. Vendorstrike.
Both very meme and lame weapons. Why? PPM incredibly small, and very slow (this is bad for Spdpalas). They both lose to the scythe by 2 or 3 times (in general, they lose to literally everyone). I tested it all thoroughly.

What I want to offer. In general, I can offer too much, but at that moment the proposal for the weapon itemization of retri paladins.
Improve and change a Shadowbringer and Strike for example: improve proc frequency, change weapon speed 2.5 or 2.7 and change the scale from SPD a little. This all also needs to be tested and verified.

I can not only offer, but even help with testing these weapons (maybe some others), but no more.

[Gantulga]

Drain procs are problematic because they heal and deal damage at the same time. Vanilla isn't based around this kind of retail-like sustain gameplay where you can keep going on by simply dealing damage.
Likewise paladin already has healing spells.

[Hutber]

Drain procs are problematic because they heal and deal damage at the same time. Vanilla isn't based around this kind of retail-like sustain gameplay where you can keep going on by simply dealing damage.
Likewise paladin already has healing spells.

Then do the rest of the procs better? Shadowbringer proc change it to just dark damage without taking away the scaling from the spd. Is this possible?

[Gantulga]

100% spell power scaling on procs is also problematic for obvious reasons. Paladin being able to trigger procs on demand was a terribly shortsighted change that led to serious balance issues so I hope that'll get removed in CC2.

[Hutber]

100% spell power scaling on procs is also problematic for obvious reasons. Paladin being able to trigger procs on demand was a terribly shortsighted change that led to serious balance issues so I hope that'll get removed in CC2.

I didn't say anything about add 100% scaling. Yes, 100% scaling is overkill. The same Shadowbringer does not scale 100% at all. Then maybe you just need to test in this direction and draw conclusions, and not cut everything?

[Hutber]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. If we are talking about a scythe, then yes, it scales 1 to 1. Vendostrike and shadowweak scale quite weakly.

[Hutber]

and.. remove that all? Then why did they add custom weapons with proc?
If don’t do anything, then they will continue to be useless and an annoying drop from raid bosses.

[Hutber]

Updating.
I've don’t touch on pvp topics at all, at the moment I’m exclusively talking about pve content.

I myself actually recently started playing for DPS paladins, and on this server they are not useless garbage in PvE, like everywhere else. This is what attracts people to this server.

And if someone stubbornly drags everything into vanilla and “uugh, it was better before, now making 100 of the same characters, with one single specialization, just like 20 years ago”.. then what is the point of this server at all?

[Geojak]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. If we are talking about a scythe, then yes, it scales 1 to 1. Vendostrike and shadowweak scale quite weakly.

All drain life's scale with 100% spellpower 1:1, the only difference is the procc chance. That's why ashbringer is paladin ret bis now after twow made it scale, which is pretzy nice change, otherwise everyone would go for might of menethil as bis, now paladin and warriors can gear differently.

[Geojak]

100% spell power scaling on procs is also problematic for obvious reasons. Paladin being able to trigger procs on demand was a terribly shortsighted change that led to serious balance issues so I hope that'll get removed in CC2.

The force procc thing is taken way exaggerated in usefulness all the time. In pve you deal more dmg by just using sor and judge it even with scythe build, switching to seal of crusader is a waste of gcd and not worth it to force procc.

[Hutber]

100% spell power scaling on procs is also problematic for obvious reasons. Paladin being able to trigger procs on demand was a terribly shortsighted change that led to serious balance issues so I hope that'll get removed in CC2.

The force procc thing is taken way exaggerated in usefulness all the time. In pve you deal more dmg by just using sor and judge it even with scythe build, switching to seal of crusader is a waste of gcd and not worth it to force procc.

who even uses seal of crusader..

[Hutber]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. If we are talking about a scythe, then yes, it scales 1 to 1. Vendostrike and shadowweak scale quite weakly.

All drain life's scale with 100% spellpower 1:1, the only difference is the procc chance. That's why ashbringer is paladin ret bis now after twow made it scale, which is pretzy nice change, otherwise everyone would go for might of menethil as bis, now paladin and warriors can gear differently.

Ah yeah sry, but it feels like the damage is lower xD. Although in any case the scythe outplays both of them, still because of the chance of proc and speed.

Ashbringer is veeery late content weapon, in the middle there is nothing like that at all, but ofc this is bis, oke..
But the dissatisfaction of other players is that she heals and deal dmg and everything like that. But this is only relevant in pvp, and honestly - I don’t know anything about pvp at all, I haven’t played it yet. As the person above says, remove the scaling altogether. Well, maybe just remove the healing factor and correct the scaling from SPD? If it is possible of course.

[Hutber]

I'm still waiting for a good and compromise solution on this topic.
After all, the game has this weapon with a proc, and the turtle is adding a new custom weapon with a proc. But they are all useless except for the scythe and Ash at the moment now.. Maybe it’s worth improving them to an acceptable level?

[Hutber]

I see that everyone is worried about pvp issues, but no one is looking at pve at all.
If all the statistics and tests say that paladins are too strong in pvp - the nerf is what exactly makes them strong in pvp.
Simply nerfing the weapons of ret paladins and cutting down “spelladins” will not solve the problem in pvp (but it will completely kill it in pve, and it will be even worse than in regular vanilla)

[Gantulga]

I see that everyone is worried about pvp issues, but no one is looking at pve at all.
If all the statistics and tests say that paladins are too strong in pvp - the nerf is what exactly makes them strong in pvp.
Simply nerfing the weapons of ret paladins and cutting down “spelladins” will not solve the problem in pvp (but it will completely kill it in pve, and it will be even worse than in regular vanilla)

It happens that life drain procs and jotc are a huge issue in PvP. The dev team should move away from broken interaction like that and actually work on the ret tree so it can perform in PvE without relying on gimmicks.

[Hutber]

I see that everyone is worried about pvp issues, but no one is looking at pve at all.
If all the statistics and tests say that paladins are too strong in pvp - the nerf is what exactly makes them strong in pvp.
Simply nerfing the weapons of ret paladins and cutting down “spelladins” will not solve the problem in pvp (but it will completely kill it in pve, and it will be even worse than in regular vanilla)

It happens that life drain procs and jotc are a huge issue in PvP. The dev team should move away from broken interaction like that and actually work on the ret tree so it can perform in PvE without relying on gimmicks.

Dude. You don't even read. Or maybe I'm writing it wrong idk.
I haven't touched pvp at all. Okay, I heard you there. Now you will hear me.
Well, if it is possible to replace life drain and replace it with just damage. Everything is bad again and we’re running to nerf everything?

[Atreidon]

Why of all weapons should a level 42 world random scythe be the bis & only weapon for a playstile. Ashbringer, Netrezik, Vendorstrike, Sulfuras and many other endgame weapons with spellprocs exist who could be molded into shape for the playstile if so desired.

Adjusting scaling to something manageable but procchance way up on those weapons could indeed be a fun alternative, but if the goal is to make them better than scythe, scythe in its current form is too powerful and making actually good weapons also outcompete scythe on top of that would overbloat those weapons instead

[Hutber]

Why of all weapons should a level 42 world random scythe be the bis & only weapon for a playstile. Ashbringer, Netrezik, Vendorstrike, Sulfuras and many other endgame weapons with spellprocs exist who could be molded into shape for the playstile if so desired.

Adjusting scaling to something manageable but procchance way up on those weapons could indeed be a fun alternative, but if the goal is to make them better than scythe, scythe in its current form is too powerful and making actually good weapons also outcompete scythe on top of that would overbloat those weapons instead

The problem is that some of the weapons DMG-proc do not scale (this is either generally fatal junk, or like sulfuras, which already has a lot of proc damage. And they still make you want to yawn and sleep). Or vendorstike 1.0 and vendorstrike 2.0, which even with scalable damage from proc are very weak against the background of a scythe. 100-200 dps Shadowbringer vs 500-600 dps Scythe. So I propose to revive these cacti! One here generally will not lag behind the PVP direction. Okay, I'm talking 20 times already. Just take away the health replenishments, is the problem solved?

"...scythe in its current form is too powerful and making actually good weapons also outcompete scythe on top of that would overbloat those weapons instead" "...indeed be a fun alternative..."
Finally!!!! Someone is thinking in the right direction! I am not suggesting to introduce outright chizzings into the game, but to give a sane alternative that WILL fit into the balance.

[Geojak]

scythe has a ppm of 6, vendorstrike just 1.5
if we lower the ppm we also punish those warriors or paladins that acutally manage to get this item and use it during leveling.
the soultion is to lower the spellpower scaling for all drain life to 50% down from 100% and keep ppm of scythe uncahnged
this way the sycthe item is virtually unchanged for warrios and leveling paladins (as plate with spellpower does not exist until lvl 60)
then we double the ppm of all raid drain life items to offset the sp coeeficient nerf on those

[Hutber]

scythe has a ppm of 6, vendorstrike just 1.5
if we lower the ppm we also punish those warriors or paladins that acutally manage to get this item and use it during leveling.
the soultion is to lower the spellpower scaling for all drain life to 50% down from 100% and keep ppm of scythe uncahnged
this way the sycthe item is virtually unchanged for warrios and leveling paladins (as plate with spellpower does not exist until lvl 60)
then we double the ppm of all raid drain life items to offset the sp coeeficient nerf on those

As not a bad option, to begin the balance of such weapons in such a way