What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

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Artashir
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What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Artashir » Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:07 pm

Can someone explain me how match EAP ( equal attack power ): Increases your attack and casting speed by 1% is?
For example, we know : 1% increased chance to hit or crit is worth near 32 AP at Level 60 and 14 Attack Power = 1 Weapon DPS. What about attack speed and casting speed then?

If you have Boon of Niremius https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=61095 that is 2% speed is it equal by EAP with Blackhand's Breadth thats 2% crit https://database.turtle-wow.org/?item=13965. Are they both EAP 64?

Xudo
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Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Xudo » Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:22 pm

It reduces your delay between attacks. On my druid I have default 1.0 attack speed in cat. DPS (of melee attacks) is 127.8. Healing Touch cast time is 3.5 sec cast.
When I equip Boon of Niremius, then attack speed becomes 0.98 and DPS becomes 130.4. Healing touch cast time becomes 3.43 sec cast.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Atreidon
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Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Atreidon » Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:25 pm

How much worth attackspeed is varies from class to class and on how good the rest of your gear is.

Factors like your weaponspeed vs your spells cooldown als factor in. Paladins & hunters with raptor- / holy strike in particular can mess up their rotation with too much/ too little attackspeed.

For each 100% attackspeed the swingtime/casttime gets halfed.

So lets say you have might of menethil with a 3.8 swingspeed. If you have +10% attackspeed your new swingspeed would be

3.8 / 1.1 = 3.45seconds/swing

The general consensus for most melees seems to be that an equal amount of crit outperforms an equal amount of haste, as haste only affects autohits & hits impacted by swingtimers.

For casters its a slightly different matter, as the spells base castspeed is used to calculate the new castspeed. With any cast speed reduction being applyed afterwards. Particularly druids & elemental shamans can therefore make great use out of haste

Artashir
Posts: 10

Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Artashir » Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:29 pm

Atreidon wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:25 pm
How much worth attackspeed is varies from class to class and on how good the rest of your gear is.

Factors like your weaponspeed vs your spells cooldown als factor in. Paladins & hunters with raptor- / holy strike in particular can mess up their rotation with too much/ too little attackspeed.

For each 100% attackspeed the swingtime/casttime gets halfed.

So lets say you have might of menethil with a 3.8 swingspeed. If you have +10% attackspeed your new swingspeed would be

3.8 / 1.1 = 3.45seconds/swing

The general consensus for most melees seems to be that an equal amount of crit outperforms an equal amount of haste, as haste only affects autohits & hits impacted by swingtimers.

For casters its a slightly different matter, as the spells base castspeed is used to calculate the new castspeed. With any cast speed reduction being applyed afterwards. Particularly druids & elemental shamans can therefore make great use out of haste
Im in a Rogue forum, i want to know how this affect Rogue class and specific the EAP . When i know the EAP i will know how to compare the two items. Thanks for all replays

Atreidon
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Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Atreidon » Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:37 pm

Artashir wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:29 pm
Atreidon wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2024 1:25 pm
How much worth attackspeed is varies from class to class and on how good the rest of your gear is.

Factors like your weaponspeed vs your spells cooldown als factor in. Paladins & hunters with raptor- / holy strike in particular can mess up their rotation with too much/ too little attackspeed.

For each 100% attackspeed the swingtime/casttime gets halfed.

So lets say you have might of menethil with a 3.8 swingspeed. If you have +10% attackspeed your new swingspeed would be

3.8 / 1.1 = 3.45seconds/swing

The general consensus for most melees seems to be that an equal amount of crit outperforms an equal amount of haste, as haste only affects autohits & hits impacted by swingtimers.

For casters its a slightly different matter, as the spells base castspeed is used to calculate the new castspeed. With any cast speed reduction being applyed afterwards. Particularly druids & elemental shamans can therefore make great use out of haste
Im in a Rogue forum, i want to know how this affect Rogue class and specific the EAP . When i know the EAP i will know how to compare the two items. Thanks for all replays
Oh my bad, didnt check which forum it was in. For rogues im pretty certain its worse than bhb, since you have flurry up all the time (meaning your non haste items get amplified) and neither energy regen nor style dmg is impacted by haste at all. But im not deep enough into rogue to give you an exact number. (Possible exception if you hit the critcap but thats relatively unlikely without wbs)

Likaleo
Posts: 113

Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Likaleo » Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:22 pm

Rogue discord has turtlewow updated excel sheet that tells how much dps you get from haste items. I dont realy get why you want to compare them to the attack power.

Calli
Posts: 280

Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Calli » Fri Apr 26, 2024 9:54 am

Likaleo wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2024 2:22 pm
Rogue discord has turtlewow updated excel sheet that tells how much dps you get from haste items. I dont realy get why you want to compare them to the attack power.
He does not want it to compare to attack power. He wants to translate every stats to attackpower and compare two items based on that.

Likaleo
Posts: 113

Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Likaleo » Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:48 am

He does not want it to compare to attack power. He wants to translate every stats to attackpower and compare two items based on that.
Ok but why?

Excel gives dps on each item why not compare that?

Nurincarinun
Posts: 30

Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Nurincarinun » Fri Apr 26, 2024 12:55 pm

I tried to go into depth on this for hunter, I think much can be transferred to rogue, mainly the ideas about finding out whether some amount of haste is worth having compared to EAPed stats. Take care to replace hunter-specific relations to the rogue equivalents eg for the EAP calculations.

A transfer of haste to EAP is not possible in this sense of decontextualization. As Atreidon said, it depends on the rest of your gear.

viewtopic.php?t=11230

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Poxfox
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Re: What increases your attack and casting speed by X% mean?

Post by Poxfox » Sun Jun 09, 2024 6:40 am

Likaleo wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2024 11:48 am
He does not want it to compare to attack power. He wants to translate every stats to attackpower and compare two items based on that.
Ok but why?

Excel gives dps on each item why not compare that?
This is much later and I apologize but going off the raw dps of an item is a bad idea generally speaking in terms of optimizing. It's good for a lot, don't get me wrong but when you start playing with things like crit cap it gets a lot more convoluted. For example if you're above hitcap, but not pushing crit cap, then hit is effectively a near nil increase because it's only reducing auto miss chance which is always astronomically high, yet it gets the most benefit up to hit cap so you can never miss special attacks on bosses. Inversely if you're at the crit cap, Crit is now useless and Agility loses a huge chunk of its value, but Hit is now a premium. However, breaking an item into just attack power/AEP (Agility Equivalence Points) says "Okay, 1% of hit is worth having this much Agility, therefore this much DPS", that value wildly fluctuates based on where you are at so an item might read as giving more DPS than it actually gives to you.

There's a lot of hard to quantify silliness too, in Classic (Not Turtle) for example, rogues were swearing by our old spreadsheets on launch because "This gives you the most net attack power" despite the Classic hit crap being significantly lower (rogues needed 1% hit on gear with 305 skill) which drastically affected the values on things with hit because on private servers we were used to needing 8% on gear. Mask of the Unforgiven now is a novelty item instead of ridiculously strong. Then it becomes discovered Shadowcraft 6 set is actually REALLY good compared to what we thought. Stat-wise it was a complete joke, but the proc and proc rate were good enough that 6 set Shadowcraft was very much better than your pre-raid gear and it took being able to replace all 6 of those pieces at once to justify breaking it. To be fair, private servers have always hated Shadowcraft and given it a lower proc rate, Classic it felt a hell of a lot higher.

It's not as bad as it was in TBC though. TBC felt like changing one piece of gear after raid night meant you were needing to change everything else.

You also have fight to fight optimizations where for like Firemaw, you'd ideally try to run a fair bit of Fire Resistance as a melee just to reduce the amount of downtime you have resetting stacks, sometimes you never have to run out. That makes a lot of gear mathematically a pain in the ass to quantify but it all is technically "better" in that instance even without raw dps increases.

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