Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

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Johnkw
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Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Johnkw » Thu May 23, 2024 6:51 am

Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE;that's what I have seen from Warcraft 3 and wow60. I can't agree this setting more.

Now,Pala can deal huge damage, Prot Pal is no need to refect damage,and also a waste to heal.
Wish to see Pal go back to the orginal setting: heal、survival、and protect.

again,pls watch back Warcraft3,how Pal and Shaman works.

Calli
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Calli » Thu May 23, 2024 7:07 am

This is the Age of Retribution, no more forgiveness!

Shockoladetwo
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Shockoladetwo » Thu May 23, 2024 8:03 am

Just wait for the class changes that they work on.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Thu May 23, 2024 1:24 pm

In the year of grace 2024 some people keep insisting that a playable class be turned into dedicated healbot.

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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Dracarusggotham » Thu May 23, 2024 2:11 pm

Johnkw wrote:
Thu May 23, 2024 6:51 am
Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE;that's what I have seen from Warcraft 3 and wow60. I can't agree this setting more.

Now,Pala can deal huge damage, Prot Pal is no need to refect damage,and also a waste to heal.
Wish to see Pal go back to the orginal setting: heal、survival、and protect.

again,pls watch back Warcraft3,how Pal and Shaman works.
Classes are for play in every role that the player wants.
Don't force them to a one role or they are going to be boring.

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Addryan
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Addryan » Thu May 23, 2024 5:05 pm

Paladin is ez mode, and I enjoy playing one, but it's easy mode. Like face roll on the keyboard easy. So yeah let the horde have pallys.

Watterboy1
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Watterboy1 » Thu May 23, 2024 5:10 pm

Pallies are definitely op from what I can tell- however, in the context of pvp team play, alliance performs much better when paladins are playing defensively rather than face-rolling people 1v1 as ret. The alliance "premades" (which are really just people grouping together with other people that they know aren't going to afk at ST and GM) do really well when they have a couple support paladins.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Thu May 23, 2024 7:56 pm

Addryan wrote:
Thu May 23, 2024 5:05 pm
So yeah let the horde have pallys.
Absolutely. But of course the whiny hordie soyboys do not want to lose their only excuse, so expect some "faction identity" nonsense thrown at you.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Thu May 23, 2024 7:57 pm

Watterboy1 wrote:
Thu May 23, 2024 5:10 pm
do really well when they have a couple support paladins.
I will tell you the secret: everybody does better when they coordinate. Still not a reason to force people into playing dedicated gimps, as the OP insists.

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Manletow
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Manletow » Fri May 24, 2024 11:41 am

One shotting people with 3.8k Holy Strike
vs
Providing Support as Blizzard intended

Obviously killing people in seconds is better. Thats why Paladin needs a heavy nerf to its burst/DPS.

For the 10 seconds that Holy Strike is on Cooldown you can provide Support however.

Note: Ret was meant to be a PVP spec -- not do top tier DPS in raids. They are intended as Gimps.
Live with it.

Elemental Shaman is a "Spear" -- the other specs are Healer (medicine man) and Tank/Support (Tribal Guardian/Leader)
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Fri May 24, 2024 1:47 pm

Manletow wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 11:41 am
They are intended as Gimps.
Live with it.
I have a better idea: how about YOU play a gimp class?

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri May 24, 2024 3:35 pm

Werefox wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 1:47 pm
Manletow wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 11:41 am
They are intended as Gimps.
Live with it.
I have a better idea: how about YOU play a gimp class?
They mains sham, actually, so that's already the case.
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Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Fri May 24, 2024 3:44 pm

Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 3:35 pm
They mains sham, actually, so that's already the case.
w00t? Sham is not gimp by any stretch of imagination. More importantly for this topic, nobody comes to the forums and demands repeatedly they be turned into one.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri May 24, 2024 4:15 pm

Werefox wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 3:44 pm
Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 3:35 pm
They mains sham, actually, so that's already the case.
w00t? Sham is not gimp by any stretch of imagination. More importantly for this topic, nobody comes to the forums and demands repeatedly they be turned into one.
So, uh, before we decide which classes are and aren't "gimps" could someone actually define the criteria for what does and doesn't make a "gimped" class? if the basic concept is just "bad" or "off-meta" then like... Yeah, I think it is. I mean, ele's fuckin' nuts, at least in PvP. Manlet also, from what I've collected, normally plays enh, which is kinda... Mediocre? As a melee spec it's forced to get in close, which it doesn't have very many tools to do.
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Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Fri May 24, 2024 4:25 pm

Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:15 pm
So, uh, before we decide which classes are and aren't "gimps" could someone actually define the criteria for what does and doesn't make a "gimped" class?
Oh, that is super easy. Gimp is a class that cannot achieve anything on their own. In the game where you get anything exclusively by killing stuff gimped class is one that cannot kill stuff. Cuz "but amazing healz!!oneone" and whatnot.

(Yes, you've heard it right. In an MMO the first class classes - pun intended - are the ones with great solo capabilites. Blame ex-EQ team.)
Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:15 pm
Manlet also, from what I've collected, normally plays enh, which is kinda... Mediocre? As a melee spec it's forced to get in close, which it doesn't have very many tools to do.
I wonder what would he say about the idea of a class that has exactly zero ranged dps AND no mobility whatsoever. Oh wait, that one is god tier somehow.

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri May 24, 2024 4:38 pm

Werefox wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:25 pm
(Yes, you've heard it right. In an MMO the first class classes - pun intended - are the ones with great solo capabilites. Blame ex-EQ team.)
Warrior
Werefox wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:25 pm
I wonder what would he say about the idea of a class that has exactly zero ranged dps AND no mobility whatsoever. Oh wait, that one is god tier somehow.
Paladin could survive a fukkin tactical nuke and a half and completely disable any class for (I think?) 6 seconds on a 1 minute CD while they burst them down. Shaman can't.
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Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Fri May 24, 2024 4:51 pm

Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:38 pm
Warrior

Paladin could survive a fukkin tactical nuke and a half and completely disable any class for (I think?) 6 seconds on a 1 minute CD while they burst them down. Shaman can't.
1. Warrior what?

2. And we are back to square one. "Surviving" gets you exactly nowhere in this game as the opposition can simply drop another nuke immediately after your bubble is gone. And they totally will be able to do so as two of the bubbles won't let you strike back at all, and the third one cuts your not at all impressive (as those incredible random procs hordie soyboys whine about only happen once in two weeks or so) dps in half.

Tell you what, I will trade all the bubbles for normal taunt and any form of mobility boost - sprint, charge, shifting to Ghost of Aunt Matilde form...

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Bigsmerf
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Bigsmerf » Fri May 24, 2024 5:34 pm

Werefox wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:51 pm

1. Warrior what?
Worst solo class in the game. Smerf wins debate game >:3
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Manletow
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Manletow » Fri May 24, 2024 5:54 pm

Werefox wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:25 pm
Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 4:15 pm
Manlet also normally plays enh, which is Mediocre
As a melee spec it's forced to get in close, which it doesn't have very many tools to do.
I wonder what would he say about the idea of a class that has exactly zero ranged dps AND no mobility whatsoever. Oh wait, that one is god tier somehow.
Yep Enhancement is bottom tier in PVP but its fine because its fun to play and has high gameplay flexibility. Hybrid tax is good game design.

Turtle WoW Paladins are broken cuz they don't have any weakness as their DPS was hugely buffed.
And yes they have many mobility tools and also ranged attacks such as the hugely buffed Holy Shock.

Anyway Ghost Wolf should be used as an escape tool -- if you want to charge someone -- just mount up.
But Enhancement should generally be hiding (closely) behind teammates as it is a support class/spec -- NOT charging into enemies.

Thats a VERY common mistake that Shaman players make -- putting on that 2hander and then charging into the fray thinking they are a Warrior. Doomed for mediocrity and failure and frustration.
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Werefox
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Fri May 24, 2024 5:55 pm

Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 5:34 pm
Worst solo class in the game.
To a degree. As far as I understand the anti-paladin conspiracy of early vanilla, warriors were supposed to be the rock star class (jedi of Azeroth if you will), demanding and receiving tributes from their respective guilds - this is why they went full tonya harding on any alternatives to warrior tanking. With that expectation in mind solo capability was deemed irrelevant. But it did not work that way, you can say it backfired: they were supposed to have a bunch of gimps at their 24/7 service, but turned out to be semi-gimps themselves.
Bigsmerf wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 5:34 pm
Smerf wins debate game >:3
We haven't even started.

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Invokersama
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Invokersama » Sat May 25, 2024 3:35 am

both shamans and paladins are broken in pvp ( i perfer strong but who am i to disagree with ppl)

both have brust damage issue and can delete ppl, both have their issue and problems.
both are hybrid classes and can heal (Shaman (Range caster dps / Melee dps / Healer ) / Paladin (Healer / Tank / Melee Dps )
both have very powerful tools

Shaman (purge,slow,interrupt,redirect spells to totems,4 totem base, windfury make melee go brrrrrrrr, instant heal, can heal and dmg at same time with high armor like paladin :P)

Paladins (cleanse,bubble,bless of protection, movement immunity, Stuns, LoH XD, nice resistance auras, 100% proc chance in weapons)

if anyone of you guys want Paladin nerf for been broken in pvp then sure but nerf shamans too, and same gose for shamans if shamans got nerf then nerf paladins too.

(yes my english sucks :P )

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Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Daedalus007 » Sat May 25, 2024 8:31 pm

Manletow wrote:
Fri May 24, 2024 5:54 pm
*snip*
You seem to be all over the forums at this point, lmao. Still trying to nerf Paladins into the ground because you hate them so much. Your bias is pretty clear from your signature, but your posts are even worse than that.
Might help to try out and play EVERY class to 60 in both PvP and PvE for about a month. After that, you get to talk about class balances and design. If you can't manage that, the official Blizzard forums are a great place for whiners.

PvP and PvE balance needs to be done separately so as not to mess up the classes for either situation. Nerf PvP damage if they have too much burst? Sure ok but it doesn't affect PvE damage. PvP gear honestly is overdue for some PvP-specific modifiers like reduced/increased PvP damage, etc. Or just remove PvP gear altogether and have everyone choose stat boosts like Guild Wars 2 does. Don't think that would go over well with PvPers though so that might be nice for a later custom server.

I'd say the best way to really get some reliable/useful data on PvP specifically would be a 'test' server so that people can try out classes at whatever levels (or even only at level 60) and insta-learn professions/recipes and insta-acquire stuff like quest rewards or whatever. Blizzard already made a PvP tester NPC for this purpose and there are dedicated guides that go over a lot of such items: https://www.wowhead.com/classic/guide/i ... lassic-pvp

-----The TLDR WishList for DPSing-----

For Turtle WoW specifically, I'd love to see some 'tiers' of classes done properly:

-Pure DPS Classes on top (squishy over tanky; melee should always beat ranged here)
-Dual-use DPS classes under them (those who can fulfill 2 roles)
-Hybrids who can do all 3 roles under that

So if it were me, DPS should be in order from highest to lowest; presuming 100% uptime on the enemy and variations in DPS because of raid mechanics and gear differences. This list presumes equal gear/skill.

--Rogue (leather, melee) -- Undisputed Top Dps; full stop
--Warrior (plate, melee) -- 1% lower than rogue

--Mage (cloth, ranged) -- 3% lower than Rogue
--Priest (cloth, ranged) -- 3% lower than Rogue
--Warlock (cloth, ranged, pet) - 3% lower than Rogue

--Druid (leather but bear form equals plate+, melee/ranged, hybrid) -- 5% lower than Rogue
--Hunter (mail, ranged physical dps, pet) -- 5% lower than Rogue
--Paladin (plate, melee/ranged, hybrid) -- 5% lower than Rogue
--Shaman (mail, melee/ranged, hybrid) -- 5% lower than Rogue

-----END OF LIST-----

People are so obsessed with DPS meters that if things are equalized without tier-specific effect-specific gear first (maybe 60 blues w/o set bonuses) and then people can min-max-meta however they like. You'd want mostly rogues and warriors in raids but the clothie dps would be awesome for some more steady dps and for phases where melee can't attack (like Onyxia Phase 2 as a well-known example).

One could argue that Hunters should do more damage, but honestly not having to worry about hit gear as much as melee dps does, not even having to worry about spell hit as much as casters do, having a pet for additional DPS (as mediocre as that might be), and having the single best 'Drop All Aggro' button in Feign Death means they can basically not worry about threat at all for the most part and go ham unlike the pure-casters.

With all the crap warriors have to deal with during leveling and even at 60, they deserve a spot alongside rogues and constantly within that 1% difference. It would be a healthy competition of both skill and gearing. Rogues naturally being the most-likely to be squishy and in melee range deserve that top spot without question.

While Warlocks have a pet, they're often using the pet in a supportive role rather than having it attack a raid boss due to both existing vanilla bugs and existing server raid boss scripting issues when it comes to pets in particular. This affects hunters less often because hunter pets are always out doing physical dps (for the most part) versus ranged spell dps on the warlock pet used most often in raids (Imp).

Shadow Priests cannot consistently heal (for the most part) while in Shadowform. I don't feel that they should suffer a 'hybrid' tax and should be competitive right alongside the other casters in both DPS output and group/raid utility. Mages get 3 schools of magic (arcane/frost/fire) and Warlocks get 2 of em (fire/shadow) so having Shadow priests ONLY being able to do shadow (or maybe swap to Holy spells if the PvE enemy is shadow immune) is enough of a 'tax' for their utility. As an offside bonus, making both Priests and Warriors doing more dps and thus having them be easier to level means less healer and tank shortages all around which benefits the entire server.

Druids, Paladins, and Shamans get a slight hybrid tax instead of the massive clusterpork that Blizz vanilla did, however by contrast they bring utility, buffs, survivability, and flexibility to the raid group. I specifically arranged each 'category' in alphabetical order to avoid any pretense of bias. I love a good Mage as much as a Warlock as much as that tasty mana/health regen of a Shadow Priest as much as a Boomkin's tasty spell crit buff as much as a Cat's melee crit buff as much as a Shaman's windfury totems as much as Pally buffs.

Rather than being hostile or hateful to any one class (Paladins or Shamans or otherwise) we should work together holistically towards a common goal (defeating the other team in PvP or defeating the raid bosses in PvE).

Every class is different so lets be chill and kind and awesome with one another. End of novella :P

Frantsel
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Frantsel » Sun May 26, 2024 4:31 pm

I oneshot pala :)

Jonyhand
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Jonyhand » Tue May 28, 2024 1:08 pm

Invokersama wrote:
Sat May 25, 2024 3:35 am
both shamans and paladins are broken in pvp ( i perfer strong but who am i to disagree with ppl)

both have brust damage issue and can delete ppl, both have their issue and problems.
both are hybrid classes and can heal (Shaman (Range caster dps / Melee dps / Healer ) / Paladin (Healer / Tank / Melee Dps )
both have very powerful tools

Shaman (purge,slow,interrupt,redirect spells to totems,4 totem base, windfury make melee go brrrrrrrr, instant heal, can heal and dmg at same time with high armor like paladin :P)

Paladins (cleanse,bubble,bless of protection, movement immunity, Stuns, LoH XD, nice resistance auras, 100% proc chance in weapons)

if anyone of you guys want Paladin nerf for been broken in pvp then sure but nerf shamans too, and same gose for shamans if shamans got nerf then nerf paladins too.

(yes my english sucks :P )
In turtle wow, all new and emphasize in skill and talent ,no weaken and delete.
thus,growth rate of damege >>>>> defense
so you can't see 1 exp player kill 5 ppl anymore compared with vanila,man vanished like a fart in the wind.

Werefox
Posts: 204

Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE

Post by Werefox » Tue May 28, 2024 3:55 pm

Jonyhand wrote:
Tue May 28, 2024 1:08 pm
man vanished like a fart in the wind.
Men of culture, that is true poetry. And with this I hope we can finally put the end to this whole topic. Let it vanish, so to speak.

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