Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE;that's what I have seen from Warcraft 3 and wow60. I can't agree this setting more.
Now,Pala can deal huge damage, Prot Pal is no need to refect damage,and also a waste to heal.
Wish to see Pal go back to the orginal setting: heal、survival、and protect.
again,pls watch back Warcraft3,how Pal and Shaman works.
Now,Pala can deal huge damage, Prot Pal is no need to refect damage,and also a waste to heal.
Wish to see Pal go back to the orginal setting: heal、survival、and protect.
again,pls watch back Warcraft3,how Pal and Shaman works.
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Just wait for the class changes that they work on.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
In the year of grace 2024 some people keep insisting that a playable class be turned into dedicated healbot.
- Dracarusggotham
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Classes are for play in every role that the player wants.Johnkw wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 6:51 am Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE;that's what I have seen from Warcraft 3 and wow60. I can't agree this setting more.
Now,Pala can deal huge damage, Prot Pal is no need to refect damage,and also a waste to heal.
Wish to see Pal go back to the orginal setting: heal、survival、and protect.
again,pls watch back Warcraft3,how Pal and Shaman works.
Don't force them to a one role or they are going to be boring.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Paladin is ez mode, and I enjoy playing one, but it's easy mode. Like face roll on the keyboard easy. So yeah let the horde have pallys.
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Pallies are definitely op from what I can tell- however, in the context of pvp team play, alliance performs much better when paladins are playing defensively rather than face-rolling people 1v1 as ret. The alliance "premades" (which are really just people grouping together with other people that they know aren't going to afk at ST and GM) do really well when they have a couple support paladins.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Absolutely. But of course the whiny hordie soyboys do not want to lose their only excuse, so expect some "faction identity" nonsense thrown at you.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
I will tell you the secret: everybody does better when they coordinate. Still not a reason to force people into playing dedicated gimps, as the OP insists.Watterboy1 wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 5:10 pm do really well when they have a couple support paladins.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
One shotting people with 3.8k Holy Strike
vs
Providing Support as Blizzard intended
Obviously killing people in seconds is better. Thats why Paladin needs a heavy nerf to its burst/DPS.
For the 10 seconds that Holy Strike is on Cooldown you can provide Support however.
Note: Ret was meant to be a PVP spec -- not do top tier DPS in raids. They are intended as Gimps.
Live with it.
Elemental Shaman is a "Spear" -- the other specs are Healer (medicine man) and Tank/Support (Tribal Guardian/Leader)
vs
Providing Support as Blizzard intended
Obviously killing people in seconds is better. Thats why Paladin needs a heavy nerf to its burst/DPS.
For the 10 seconds that Holy Strike is on Cooldown you can provide Support however.
Note: Ret was meant to be a PVP spec -- not do top tier DPS in raids. They are intended as Gimps.
Live with it.
Elemental Shaman is a "Spear" -- the other specs are Healer (medicine man) and Tank/Support (Tribal Guardian/Leader)
Frost Mage is overpowered in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
They mains sham, actually, so that's already the case.
Elmhoof - 60 Boomkin
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
w00t? Sham is not gimp by any stretch of imagination. More importantly for this topic, nobody comes to the forums and demands repeatedly they be turned into one.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
So, uh, before we decide which classes are and aren't "gimps" could someone actually define the criteria for what does and doesn't make a "gimped" class? if the basic concept is just "bad" or "off-meta" then like... Yeah, I think it is. I mean, ele's fuckin' nuts, at least in PvP. Manlet also, from what I've collected, normally plays enh, which is kinda... Mediocre? As a melee spec it's forced to get in close, which it doesn't have very many tools to do.
Elmhoof - 60 Boomkin
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Oh, that is super easy. Gimp is a class that cannot achieve anything on their own. In the game where you get anything exclusively by killing stuff gimped class is one that cannot kill stuff. Cuz "but amazing healz!!oneone" and whatnot.
(Yes, you've heard it right. In an MMO the first class classes - pun intended - are the ones with great solo capabilites. Blame ex-EQ team.)
I wonder what would he say about the idea of a class that has exactly zero ranged dps AND no mobility whatsoever. Oh wait, that one is god tier somehow.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Warrior
Paladin could survive a fukkin tactical nuke and a half and completely disable any class for (I think?) 6 seconds on a 1 minute CD while they burst them down. Shaman can't.
Elmhoof - 60 Boomkin
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
1. Warrior what?
2. And we are back to square one. "Surviving" gets you exactly nowhere in this game as the opposition can simply drop another nuke immediately after your bubble is gone. And they totally will be able to do so as two of the bubbles won't let you strike back at all, and the third one cuts your not at all impressive (as those incredible random procs hordie soyboys whine about only happen once in two weeks or so) dps in half.
Tell you what, I will trade all the bubbles for normal taunt and any form of mobility boost - sprint, charge, shifting to Ghost of Aunt Matilde form...
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Worst solo class in the game. Smerf wins debate game >:3
Elmhoof - 60 Boomkin
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Tacheka - 41 Melee hunter (Planned secondary main)
Anbone - 36 Shadow Priest (Idk what I'm doing with him)
The laser chicken called to me. And so I answered.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Yep Enhancement is bottom tier in PVP but its fine because its fun to play and has high gameplay flexibility. Hybrid tax is good game design.
Turtle WoW Paladins are broken cuz they don't have any weakness as their DPS was hugely buffed.
And yes they have many mobility tools and also ranged attacks such as the hugely buffed Holy Shock.
Anyway Ghost Wolf should be used as an escape tool -- if you want to charge someone -- just mount up.
But Enhancement should generally be hiding (closely) behind teammates as it is a support class/spec -- NOT charging into enemies.
Thats a VERY common mistake that Shaman players make -- putting on that 2hander and then charging into the fray thinking they are a Warrior. Doomed for mediocrity and failure and frustration.
Frost Mage is overpowered in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Druid is a bad class. This is intended and wise design.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
To a degree. As far as I understand the anti-paladin conspiracy of early vanilla, warriors were supposed to be the rock star class (jedi of Azeroth if you will), demanding and receiving tributes from their respective guilds - this is why they went full tonya harding on any alternatives to warrior tanking. With that expectation in mind solo capability was deemed irrelevant. But it did not work that way, you can say it backfired: they were supposed to have a bunch of gimps at their 24/7 service, but turned out to be semi-gimps themselves.
We haven't even started.
- Invokersama
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
both shamans and paladins are broken in pvp ( i perfer strong but who am i to disagree with ppl)
both have brust damage issue and can delete ppl, both have their issue and problems.
both are hybrid classes and can heal (Shaman (Range caster dps / Melee dps / Healer ) / Paladin (Healer / Tank / Melee Dps )
both have very powerful tools
Shaman (purge,slow,interrupt,redirect spells to totems,4 totem base, windfury make melee go brrrrrrrr, instant heal, can heal and dmg at same time with high armor like paladin :P)
Paladins (cleanse,bubble,bless of protection, movement immunity, Stuns, LoH XD, nice resistance auras, 100% proc chance in weapons)
if anyone of you guys want Paladin nerf for been broken in pvp then sure but nerf shamans too, and same gose for shamans if shamans got nerf then nerf paladins too.
(yes my english sucks :P )
both have brust damage issue and can delete ppl, both have their issue and problems.
both are hybrid classes and can heal (Shaman (Range caster dps / Melee dps / Healer ) / Paladin (Healer / Tank / Melee Dps )
both have very powerful tools
Shaman (purge,slow,interrupt,redirect spells to totems,4 totem base, windfury make melee go brrrrrrrr, instant heal, can heal and dmg at same time with high armor like paladin :P)
Paladins (cleanse,bubble,bless of protection, movement immunity, Stuns, LoH XD, nice resistance auras, 100% proc chance in weapons)
if anyone of you guys want Paladin nerf for been broken in pvp then sure but nerf shamans too, and same gose for shamans if shamans got nerf then nerf paladins too.
(yes my english sucks :P )
- Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
You seem to be all over the forums at this point, lmao. Still trying to nerf Paladins into the ground because you hate them so much. Your bias is pretty clear from your signature, but your posts are even worse than that.
Might help to try out and play EVERY class to 60 in both PvP and PvE for about a month. After that, you get to talk about class balances and design. If you can't manage that, the official Blizzard forums are a great place for whiners.
PvP and PvE balance needs to be done separately so as not to mess up the classes for either situation. Nerf PvP damage if they have too much burst? Sure ok but it doesn't affect PvE damage. PvP gear honestly is overdue for some PvP-specific modifiers like reduced/increased PvP damage, etc. Or just remove PvP gear altogether and have everyone choose stat boosts like Guild Wars 2 does. Don't think that would go over well with PvPers though so that might be nice for a later custom server.
I'd say the best way to really get some reliable/useful data on PvP specifically would be a 'test' server so that people can try out classes at whatever levels (or even only at level 60) and insta-learn professions/recipes and insta-acquire stuff like quest rewards or whatever. Blizzard already made a PvP tester NPC for this purpose and there are dedicated guides that go over a lot of such items: https://www.wowhead.com/classic/guide/i ... lassic-pvp
-----The TLDR WishList for DPSing-----
For Turtle WoW specifically, I'd love to see some 'tiers' of classes done properly:
-Pure DPS Classes on top (squishy over tanky; melee should always beat ranged here)
-Dual-use DPS classes under them (those who can fulfill 2 roles)
-Hybrids who can do all 3 roles under that
So if it were me, DPS should be in order from highest to lowest; presuming 100% uptime on the enemy and variations in DPS because of raid mechanics and gear differences. This list presumes equal gear/skill.
--Rogue (leather, melee) -- Undisputed Top Dps; full stop
--Warrior (plate, melee) -- 1% lower than rogue
--Mage (cloth, ranged) -- 3% lower than Rogue
--Priest (cloth, ranged) -- 3% lower than Rogue
--Warlock (cloth, ranged, pet) - 3% lower than Rogue
--Druid (leather but bear form equals plate+, melee/ranged, hybrid) -- 5% lower than Rogue
--Hunter (mail, ranged physical dps, pet) -- 5% lower than Rogue
--Paladin (plate, melee/ranged, hybrid) -- 5% lower than Rogue
--Shaman (mail, melee/ranged, hybrid) -- 5% lower than Rogue
-----END OF LIST-----
People are so obsessed with DPS meters that if things are equalized without tier-specific effect-specific gear first (maybe 60 blues w/o set bonuses) and then people can min-max-meta however they like. You'd want mostly rogues and warriors in raids but the clothie dps would be awesome for some more steady dps and for phases where melee can't attack (like Onyxia Phase 2 as a well-known example).
One could argue that Hunters should do more damage, but honestly not having to worry about hit gear as much as melee dps does, not even having to worry about spell hit as much as casters do, having a pet for additional DPS (as mediocre as that might be), and having the single best 'Drop All Aggro' button in Feign Death means they can basically not worry about threat at all for the most part and go ham unlike the pure-casters.
With all the crap warriors have to deal with during leveling and even at 60, they deserve a spot alongside rogues and constantly within that 1% difference. It would be a healthy competition of both skill and gearing. Rogues naturally being the most-likely to be squishy and in melee range deserve that top spot without question.
While Warlocks have a pet, they're often using the pet in a supportive role rather than having it attack a raid boss due to both existing vanilla bugs and existing server raid boss scripting issues when it comes to pets in particular. This affects hunters less often because hunter pets are always out doing physical dps (for the most part) versus ranged spell dps on the warlock pet used most often in raids (Imp).
Shadow Priests cannot consistently heal (for the most part) while in Shadowform. I don't feel that they should suffer a 'hybrid' tax and should be competitive right alongside the other casters in both DPS output and group/raid utility. Mages get 3 schools of magic (arcane/frost/fire) and Warlocks get 2 of em (fire/shadow) so having Shadow priests ONLY being able to do shadow (or maybe swap to Holy spells if the PvE enemy is shadow immune) is enough of a 'tax' for their utility. As an offside bonus, making both Priests and Warriors doing more dps and thus having them be easier to level means less healer and tank shortages all around which benefits the entire server.
Druids, Paladins, and Shamans get a slight hybrid tax instead of the massive clusterpork that Blizz vanilla did, however by contrast they bring utility, buffs, survivability, and flexibility to the raid group. I specifically arranged each 'category' in alphabetical order to avoid any pretense of bias. I love a good Mage as much as a Warlock as much as that tasty mana/health regen of a Shadow Priest as much as a Boomkin's tasty spell crit buff as much as a Cat's melee crit buff as much as a Shaman's windfury totems as much as Pally buffs.
Rather than being hostile or hateful to any one class (Paladins or Shamans or otherwise) we should work together holistically towards a common goal (defeating the other team in PvP or defeating the raid bosses in PvE).
Every class is different so lets be chill and kind and awesome with one another. End of novella :P
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
In turtle wow, all new and emphasize in skill and talent ,no weaken and delete.Invokersama wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2024 3:35 am both shamans and paladins are broken in pvp ( i perfer strong but who am i to disagree with ppl)
both have brust damage issue and can delete ppl, both have their issue and problems.
both are hybrid classes and can heal (Shaman (Range caster dps / Melee dps / Healer ) / Paladin (Healer / Tank / Melee Dps )
both have very powerful tools
Shaman (purge,slow,interrupt,redirect spells to totems,4 totem base, windfury make melee go brrrrrrrr, instant heal, can heal and dmg at same time with high armor like paladin :P)
Paladins (cleanse,bubble,bless of protection, movement immunity, Stuns, LoH XD, nice resistance auras, 100% proc chance in weapons)
if anyone of you guys want Paladin nerf for been broken in pvp then sure but nerf shamans too, and same gose for shamans if shamans got nerf then nerf paladins too.
(yes my english sucks :P )
thus,growth rate of damege >>>>> defense
so you can't see 1 exp player kill 5 ppl anymore compared with vanila,man vanished like a fart in the wind.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Men of culture, that is true poetry. And with this I hope we can finally put the end to this whole topic. Let it vanish, so to speak.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
You sound like some sheep using some talking points because you're so stupid to even bring up Warcraft 3 when you have never even play the game. If you had play the game you would never make such a stupid post as this; because Warcraft Lore, Shamans and Paladins are not the opposites of each other nor was that even in Warcraft 3. If WoW was actually based on the lore and the blizz team wasn't too stupid and actually had a lore team to provide lore guidance during the development we wouldn't be in a case like what happened in vanilla.Johnkw wrote: ↑Thu May 23, 2024 6:51 am Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE;that's what I have seen from Warcraft 3 and wow60. I can't agree this setting more.
Now,Pala can deal huge damage, Prot Pal is no need to refect damage,and also a waste to heal.
Wish to see Pal go back to the orginal setting: heal、survival、and protect.
again,pls watch back Warcraft3,how Pal and Shaman works.
The opposite of Shaman is Archmage, while the Chieftain is Paladin and Blademaster is Mountain King; so Horde should never had Mage all Horde offensive casters should had been Shaman. Dont bring up the Forsaken, that race should had never been on the Horde; the lore bullsht behind was so badly written. As for Chieftain, they could had simply call the class Champion in wow for the horde; there are black rock champions that used devo aura in wow. That would had fixed the issue with horde not having paladin but can have a class that does the same thing without doing this shammy is an offensive version of paladin bullsht.
As for the Lore, there is a reason why Shaman was trade-off for Warlocks; Shaman is just an elemental mage for the orcs and the trade-off didn't become some melee caster like the 2nd generation Death Knights.
As for WoW Paladin was created as a Holy "Warrior", it was build into the game by the original WoW creators; it was just changed after some of the original creators left blizz and new people came resulting in the last-minute nerf to the paladin and the creation of the seal & judgement system which is awful. If you know anything about WoW history you would had known that but most likely you weren't even born when it came out.
WoW patch 0.7 release June 2004 (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_0.7)
Paladin:
Cleanse: Moved to level 30.
Crusader Strike: Damage increased. Now an instant cast spell.
Devotion Aura: More frequent replacements added.
Divine Favor: Mana cost increased.
Divine Shield: Mana cost increased. Moved to level 34.
Exorcism: More frequent replacements added.
Fist of Justice: Replacements have been changed.
Healing Aura: Healing rate increased. More frequent replacements added. No longer causes hate.
Holy Strike: Mana cost and damage increased.
Might Aura: New spell at level 14.
Resistance Aura: Moved to level 28. Resistances increased.
Retribution Aura: Damage slightly increased. Replacements available.
Seal of Fury: Moved to level 14. Mana cost is percentage based. Duration increased.
Seal of Might: Spell replaced with Might Aura.
Seal of Protection: Moved to level 8.
Seal of Righteousness: Mana cost and duration reduced. Cooldown added.
Seal of Sacrifice: Moved to level 36. No longer interrupts spells. Cooldown added.
Seal of Salvation: Moved to level 22. Mana cost is percentage based. Potency increased. Duration reduced. Cooldown added.
Seal of Wisdom: Spell replaced with Wisdom Aura.
Seal of Wrath: Mana cost and duration increased.
Turn Undead: Moved to level 24.
Wisdom Aura: New spell at level 26.
WoW Live patch 1.1.0 released Nov 2004 (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.1.0)
Paladin
Retribution Aura: Moved to level 16.
Judgement: Moved to level 50, renamed Holy Wrath.
Removed facing requirement from Hammer of Justice and Turn Undead .
Cleanse: Moved to level 42, mana cost increased.
Holy Light: Causes less threat, heal effect and mana cost increased.
Purify: Mana cost increased.
Turn Undead: Increased the chance of breaking early.
Holy Strike: Removed.
Crusader Strike: Removed.
Seal of Reckoning: Removed.
Healing Aura: Removed.
Dominance Aura: Removed.
Wisdom Aura: Removed.
Redemption: Removed.
Resurrection: renamed Redemption, no longer useable in combat.
** All Seals renamed Blessings. Several new spells have been added, which now use the naming convention "Seal".
New Spell: Seal of the Crusader (Level 12).
New Spell: Seal of Justice (Level 22).
New Spell: Seal of Light (Level 30).
New Spell: Seal of Wisdom (Level 38).
New Spell: Flash of Light (Level 20).
New Spell: Judgement (Level 10).
New Spell: Blessing of Might (Level 8).
New Spell: Blessing of Wisdom (Level 14).
New Spell: Blessing of Light (Level 40).
New Spell: Concentration Aura (Level 22).
New Spell: Divine Intervention (Level 30).
Resistance Aura: Split up into 3 new spells... Shadow Resistance Aura (Level 28), Frost Resistance Aura (Level 32), and Fire Resistance Aura (Level 36).
Seal of Fury has changed significantly.
Seal of Righteousness has changed significantly.
Blessing of Sacrifice: Moved to level 46, now transfers a flat amount of damage per hit, and has replacements.
Blessing of Salvation : Moved to level 26, duration increased, cooldown removed, effect reduced.
Blessing of Freedom: Moved to level 18.
Blessing of Protection: Moved to level 10.
- Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
I appreciate your enthusiasm and the information but this thread was over a month old when you posted. The OP of this forum thread is a known troll and most just ignore them.
That said, the information is indeed fascinating. There actually was a 'Resistance Aura' for Paladins pre-release until they divided it up into separate auras for fire/frost/shadow. I suppose having a flat 'all magic resist' aura would've been too much of an anti-caster ability for both Paladins and Shamans.
If there happens to be any surviving video (or reimplementations via the WoW alpha project) on how Holy Strike and Crusader Strike were back in the beta days, it would be awesome to see video of those skills!
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
You can get hit by a shield and it hurts a lot.
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Source? My understanding was that Kevin Jordan led the class design and was around from WoW's inception till Wrath.Nameis2 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:14 pm As for WoW Paladin was created as a Holy "Warrior", it was build into the game by the original WoW creators; it was just changed after some of the original creators left blizz and new people came resulting in the last-minute nerf to the paladin and the creation of the seal & judgement system which is awful.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
The problem was not Jordan, it was the other people around him; don't forget Tom Chilton was his boss.Ravenstone wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2024 8:37 amSource? My understanding was that Kevin Jordan led the class design and was around from WoW's inception till Wrath.Nameis2 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:14 pm As for WoW Paladin was created as a Holy "Warrior", it was build into the game by the original WoW creators; it was just changed after some of the original creators left blizz and new people came resulting in the last-minute nerf to the paladin and the creation of the seal & judgement system which is awful.
This should help you understand why GW was so similar to WoW and why the gearing in GW & GW2 is so similar to the gearing while leveling up until about level 50. Stuff like "blank" of the Tiger or "blank" of the Owl; similar to how GW Radiant, scouts, etc & GW2 have Berserker, Cleric, & etc gears. Most of the original team left, and why do you think all the other versions of WoW still can't hold a candle to vanilla? It was because the people from WoW launch onward were not the original team, no matter how much they tried they could not create the magic that the original team did.https://wowrememberance.proboards.com/t ... adins-suck
"What Blizzard did is a little more complicated than what you might think.
I should preface this post by stating that I have absolutely no insider information of any kind about their corporate workings...only an eye for the obvious.
When Vivendi bought Blizzard, much of Blizzard's developing talent left. Some of these were Diablo and Starcraft developers. They went to various other projects, including Hellgate: London and Arenanet. It's unclear whether they were fired, or merely quit.
Now let's look at Blizzard's remaining talent pool. To call this leftover talent pool "shallow as a kiddie wader" wouldn't be an understatement. I'll focus on their most notorious developers: Rob Pardo ("Enoyis"), Jeff Kaplan ("Tigole Bitties"), and Alex Afrasiabi ("Furor Planedefiler"). These guys were hardcore Everquest guild leaders, the sort of people who thought 24 hour raids should be the next olympic sport. Between them is zero prior MMORPG design experience.
Furor and Tigole hated hybrid classes. Their anti-hybrid stance was notorious in Everquest. Furor was an obnoxious baby who organized server crash protests because Paladins out-tanked him in the EQ Planes of Power expansion. He was a loudmouthed brat who didn't care a lick about taking all the fun out of the game for other people.
Tigole was his best friend.
With several of the original WoW developers gone, these two geniuses were suddenly in positions of influence, in a game with three hybrid classes. Two guys who crashed servers because, for whatever petty and childish reason, they saw red whenever someone with a mana bar out-tanked Furor's pwecious warrior.
Talk about a perfect storm.
Then the class nerfs began.
Paladins suffered from nerf after nerf, beginning with a complete gutting of the class one week before the end of open beta. This culminated in a class review wherein the class was outright lied to by CMs, their forum trolls were praised, and almost none of their major concerns were addressed. They became a pure support class, almost identical to the Everquest Cleric. Big surprise, nobody wants to play them, either. Seen how many endgame WoW Paladins remain?
Shamans fell behind as other classes saw buffs. They were no longer PVP gods, and their PVE abilities were already behind. When their class review came around, they received very little feedback from CMs, their concerns were ignored, and they basically turned into this mishmash of burst damage and poor support, which no one really wanted.
Druids were treated better. Then again, they have several tame CMs. As a result, they enjoyed a great class review. Too bad it didn't last: Like the other hybrids, itemization and talents still pigeonhole them into pure support roles.
Now combine this with World of Warcraft's total, 100% raiding endgame focus (I mentioned they were EQ raid guild leaders?), and you have a situation where one-third of character classes are being forced to do something they didn't sign up for, from the moment they hit level 60 until they either reroll or move on.
Oh, and World of Warcraft's PVP designer is Tom Chilton ("Kalgan"), the man responsible for the overwhelmingly unpopular Ultima Online: Age of Shadows expansion. His view of PVP basically wrecked PVP in UO. It's good to know that Blizzard did their homework before they made their hiring decisions."
Clearly you did not play wow when it came out nor during the era of Vanilla wow or you would be well aware of the Furor and Tigole problems.
Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
Crusader Strike & Holy Strike does pretty much what it does in TWoW; Crusader Strike was an instant attack that increases Holy Damage an enemy takes while Holy Strike is similar to Heroic Strike but does Holy Damage.Daedalus007 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 8:11 pmI appreciate your enthusiasm and the information but this thread was over a month old when you posted. The OP of this forum thread is a known troll and most just ignore them.
That said, the information is indeed fascinating. There actually was a 'Resistance Aura' for Paladins pre-release until they divided it up into separate auras for fire/frost/shadow. I suppose having a flat 'all magic resist' aura would've been too much of an anti-caster ability for both Paladins and Shamans.
If there happens to be any surviving video (or reimplementations via the WoW alpha project) on how Holy Strike and Crusader Strike were back in the beta days, it would be awesome to see video of those skills!
- Daedalus007
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
I nominate you for MVP of the forums. Holy cow my brother/sister of the light.
That explains so much as to how much garbage hybrids have had to deal with and why every hybrid is pigeonholed into healing at endgame on 'vanilla' servers.
This is all the justification we need to get buffs for all our hybrids and have us doing equal tanking, healing, and DPS as the pure classes. I wasn't even aware of this info before you posted it but my eyes are now wide open.
No longer should we be subject to the whims of (sexual abusers and harassers) man-children that threw tantrums because of hybrids. Equal opportunity for all and NO MORE HYBRID TAX.
Hopefully the class changes v2.0 coming up later in 2024 (fingers crossed) will do well to fulfill the original vision of the original devs pre-Vivendi.
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Re: Paladin is a shield to ALLIANCE,while Shaman is a spear to HORDE
I did play, and I was aware of Furor and the reason hybrids perform poorly.
I was more asking for the source on who was responsible for the Seal Judge system as I read your message that someone else designed it.