Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post Reply
User avatar
Manletow
Posts: 219
Has liked: 1 time
Likes: 2 times

Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Manletow » Sun Mar 24, 2024 12:34 am

PREFACE:
Paladin was overbuffed and should be nerfed.
Shaman should NOT be overbuffed to match the absurd power level of Turtle WoW staffs pet class.
  • Increase the Mana cost of Purge.
(This ability is oppressive in PVP as it has a 30 range and is instant, easily spammable, plus there are so many Magic effects in Vanilla.)
  • Reduce the damage AND mana cost of shocks.
(Frost Shock and/or Shaman's general PVP burst damage are rather infamously overpowered)
  • Reduce the mana cost of 'Lightning Shield' by 20% by default -- this brings it to 300 Mana which matches Earth Shield.
  • "Improved Lightning Shield" should be increased from +15% damage to +33% damage. This is equal to giving 1 extra orb.
    OR +15% damage PLUS 'Enables Lightning Shield orbs to critically hit' -- just as Earth Shield orbs can crit.
  • Thunderhead can be changed to apply ANY 1 shield to any 1 player
    OR Allows the Shaman to have Lightning Shield on himself AND place Lightning Shield on a Target
  • Increase the duration of Rockbiter/wep enchantment to 10 mins (to match Shields duration)
  • 'Stormstrike" debuff should boost damage of Nature PLUS Fire/Frost spells.
(This allows the Shaman to provide more team support as almost no one uses Nature spells -- and allows more freedom to use Fire/Frost Shock)
  • 'Stormstrike' cooldown reduced to 10 seconds (to match TBC and to sate those begging for melee DPS buff)
  • Allow 'Ghost Wolf' to be used while 'Water Walking'
  • Add "Fire Walking" flavor ability -- reduces damage taken from standing/swimming in Bonfires and Lava pools.
  • Add "Air Walking" flavor ability -- 'Slow Fall' for Shamans. Or allows Shaman to 'Float' for 1 second (allowing him to survive long falls).
  • Add/adjust a Talent to allow Enhancement Tanks to gain the threat of their AOE totems.
  • Buff/Alter/Remove awful Totems. Such as combining the Healing totem and Mana Stream totems together.
  • Buff painfully tepid talents -- such as changing "+5% max mana --> +10% increased Intellect" (to match Paladin).
  • Give Resto shamans a Talent that gives them a weapon enchant that provides some minor Mana Regeneration.
(Elemental can already get value from Flametongue/Frostbrand weapon as it can activate Clearcasting.)

AFTERWORD:

I am interested in hearing other common sense/conservative tweak ideas to this already fair and balanced class. satisfied_turtle
Can't wait to see what they have in store for Class Changes 2.0.
Hopefully they won't give Shamans 'Nature Strike' which will hit for 3.8k crits to match Paladins Holy Strike.
Rather they should simply remove Holy Strike entirely. (A girl can dream can't she?) dead_turtle_head
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Hungry9
Posts: 17

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Hungry9 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:38 am

They just want the shamans to become extinct. Now, four teams on World Channel are recruiting shamans, and they can't recruit them for two hours because of what? Because the shaman has been weakened too harshly, and no one is playing anymore

Burunduk
Posts: 149
Likes: 2 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Burunduk » Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:08 am

Nerf again?
No, thanks.

Hungry9
Posts: 17

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Hungry9 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 9:40 am

The modification is a pile of shit

Noephix
Posts: 26

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Noephix » Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:00 am

Elemental Shaman is the most broken PvP spec in the game by far, followed by rogue and mage. Paladin is nowhere near.

Ninjerk
Posts: 33

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Ninjerk » Sun Mar 24, 2024 1:38 pm

I've had a lot of ideas for the shaman class over the years and if I could I would want to redesign shaman almost from the ground up, but just so I don't spend forever obsessing over this I'll just list some changes for the Enhancement talent tree. This will be completely without respect to what is already in the other talent trees or how they would have to be modfied with these changes. Any talents that are not listed below are unchanged from their current implementation.

Tier 1:
Shield Specialization: Increases your chance to block with a shield by 1/2/3/4/5% and has a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to apply a Lightning Shield charge to the attacker, regardless of the internal cooldown.

Replace Ancestral Knowledge with Reverberation from the Elemental Talent Tree exactly like it is.

Tier 2:
Improved Lightning Shield: Increases the number of charges of your Lightning Shield ability by 1/2/3 charges and increases its damage by 5/10/15%.

Improved Ghost Wolf: Reduces cast time of your Ghost Wolf spell by 1.5/3 seconds.

Tier 3:
Thunderhead moved down the tree and replaced by Stormstrike (with modifications): Attack with your weapon dealing 100% weapon damage and applying a Lightning Shield charge to the target. Also reduces targets resistances to Frost, Fire, and Nature (this can be scaled to ultimately be equivalent to Curse of Elements and not stack with it).

Enhancing Totems moved down the tree and replaced by Elemental Command: Increases threat generated by your melee damage and shock spells by x% (not sure what threat modifier will be needed here).

Tier 4:
No changes

Tier 5:
Increases the melee attack power bonus of your Rockbiter weapon by 7/14/20% and your Windfury Weapon effect by 40%. Increases the critical strike chance of your Flametongue Weapon by 1/2/3% and improves the chance that your Frostbrand Weapon will apply its effect (not sure by how much, I think this is PPM).

Thunderhead moved to this tier, downlinked from Flurry (only preserved in name because it's a cool name): Each charge of Lightning Shield increases your chance to hit with melee attacks and shocks by 1% and your Lightning shield charges can now crit.

Tier 6:
Enhancing Totems: Increases the effect of your Strength of Earth Totem by 5/10% of your Strength and your Grace of Air Totem by 5/10% of your Agility.

Tier 7 unchanged.

===

I moved Reverberation here because I've felt for some time that it's on a pretty congested tier of Elemental and the CD reduction would feel a lot better being accessible to Enhancement shaman of both kinds (especially when leveling, this is a pretty disappointing tier as is).

Lightning Shield now becomes a far more focal point for Enhancement shaman here. The vanilla version is kind of a "meh" buff and the Turtle WoW implementation just seems a bit clunky. I considered trying to fit something in here somewhere that would give a chance to forgo reducing the Lightning Shield charge count as a way to make the rotation a bit more dynamic and not necessarily always put the shaman in the position of denying themselves hit to do damage. Maybe that could still be worked in somewhere, I don't know.

The Lightning Shield changes (as well as the FT crit buff on Elemental Weapons) also now grant some synergy with Elemental Devastation. At lower gear levels or during relatively dry crit runs, the shaman could apply Flametongue to try to get Elemental Devastation going which in turn would help get Flurry going.

Enhancing Totems specializes the shaman to the point that bringing one for a melee group will be more attractive than putting any shaman in a melee group irrespective of spec.

===

Hope you like the changes, if not :shrug:

Akos1896
Posts: 496
Has liked: 2 times
Likes: 8 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Akos1896 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:42 pm

I touched this topic many times but I will do it again, because shamans are my passion project. Will be a very long post.
I think to understand the 'shaman situation' there are some fundamentals which have to be noted:
* Shamans have an extreme amount of (sometimes niche) utility
* Besides bloodlust, which TWOW Team gave them, all of these utilities are baseline with 'whatever' upgrades in the talent trees
* Most of these utilities are passive and come through totems (you don't need to keep on casting or channeling these utilities) - main exception is chain heal (bloodlust somewhat but it's insta cast on 5 min CD)
* It means that for PVE, shamans can reach their full utility, if:
1. They spam the utility which requires casting while keeping up the others. It means spamming chain heal and going to resto.
2. Going 31 into enhancement tree for bloodlust (+ somewhat better melee totems) for the full utility set. Shaman baseline is very strong while talent tree is very meh. You can easily give up 21+ talent points on resto tree for the whole utility package.

If we dream big and talk about big changes, class needs fundamental redesign, restricting utilities and putting them behind class specs. I will touch this later.

But first, I wanna point out how shamans builds currently fare.
Elemental is A+ tier in PVP, C+ in PVE. They are extremely bursty and purge is a godsend at PVP. They struggle at PVE because 1) bad mana management, 2) they can only spam nature damage, high nat rez mobs are a bane for ele 3) serious threat issues; no threat reduction talent 4) they don't bring any added utility to the table. You get the shaman package without bloodlust and without spamming chain heal. From PVE min-max perspective, it is a suboptimal package.
Enhancement DPS is around C+ for PVP and C- for PVE. Purge helps them out at PVP. Here, you get the bloodlust for the package but instead of chain heal (the castable part of the package), you will do autohits with frequent glancing blows. Enhancement tree has many problem, but the most glaring one is that they need both shock upgrades and added hit chance to function properly. Currently hit chance talent is in the middle of the resto tree while shock upgrades are in the ele tree, meaning that you, as an enhancement shaman have to choose if you want hit chance or better shocks. Other problem with them is that they are a 2H DPS class. 2H weapons are slow. So you want to cheese in extra hits as a build philosophy. You have flurry. Good. Your slow weapon is slightly less slow after a crit. You have stormstrike, which is actually a pretty neat talent. Problem is that that's almost all. You can pray for WF procs and you can bloodlust yourself but 1) wf procs are unreliable; they provide a nice melee bonus but you can't plan around them 2) with enhancement's current DPS, bloodlusting yourself in a raid is a deserved /gkick. Enhancement lacks one more melee ability, some added melee haste and a way to get back mana from melee crits.
Resto is in a very good shape. TWOW actually buffed the hell out of the spec with the added '5% mana regeneration continues while casting' items. Are you a fresh level 60 resto and you're worried about your mana management for early raids? Spam Kara Crypts dungeon, buy a boe chest, farm satyrs for a helmet and you have 15-20% mana regen while casting. Two of these items are good enough to accompany you until Naxx progression and the ES staff plus the druid buff will make sure that you still have at least 20% mana regen while casting at later phases. Nowadays, after a pug or after guild raids, whenever I check the heal log, a resto shaman is at the top. Yes, chain heal is that oppressive.

(I will not talk about shaman tanks. It's a subjective take but I think they are not a priority. Maybe one day when shaman builds are balanced for both PVE and PVP.)

Tiny changes concept
Here I wanna mention some tiny changes which seem small but help balancing a lot without solving the fundamental problems of the shaman design.
Here I won't propose new talents, just move, buff or merge existing ones.

For enhancement:
* Merge guardian totems and enhancing totems talents. Guardian totems are almost insignificant. Stoneskin is a niche. Merging these 2 frees up 2 talent points.
* Nature's guidance to the first row of enhancement tree so that ele can reach it easily, too. Shield specialization can go deeper.
* Improved lightning shield could buff all shields.
* Thunderhead allowing you and the target both to have lightning shield (only lightning shield)
* Elemental devastation to enhancement tree.
* Stormstrike buffing you instead of debuffing the target.
* Improved fire totems to enhancement tree. Really. How often does a caster DPS run into melee range to put down a totem and then nananana-Blyatman away to caster range and lose 4 seconds of casting time? Magma and Fire Nova totems are clearly designed for builds using melee range.

(I put a lot of things here, question is what to remove - looking at the shield talents. Those half-working tank shenaningans prevent enhancement from having a cohesive DPS talent tree. Those guys are not feral druid, they won't shapeshift for random buffs and new abilities. All those buffs and abilities have to be mentioned in the talent tree and they take up talent slots. >>Or maybe putting improved ghost wolves baseline at level 60.<<)

For elemental:
* Elemental focus should make the next spell free instead of the next two 40% cheaper. One of the causes of the ele mana problems is that their clearcasting doesn't help them reach 5sec for full spirit mana regen.
* Tidal mastery to first row, either ele or resto tree.
* Storm reach should work with shocks so that ele can stay at max range and have a variety at casting. If it breaks PVP, my suggestion is to only add the increased radius to flame shock (and maybe earth shock). Specially since half of the talent tree is about making shocks stronger.

For resto:
* Healing way should trigger from lesser healing wave, too. You rarely use healing wave at raids but you sometimes use lesser healing wave.
* Ancestral fortitude not getting triggered from chain heal. A bit of nerf to make restos think before they just press the chain heal button every time.
* Healing focus. It is a disgrace. It costs 5 talent points. Priests have the same talent with the same name and same effect if fully learnt and it costs 2 talent points. Let's free up 3 talent points here!
* Restorative totems need a buff. Manaspring totem is meh, healing stream totem is a meme.
* Shorten manatide totem's CD.

For everyone:
Weapon buffs from lvl 60 work for 15 minutes, just like the big pala buffs.

Bigger changes, if we are more radical:
I'd close up some utilities behind talent trees and make some nerfs here and there first. It weakens the shaman base and allows better buffs via the talent tree itself.
* Give a CD to purge -> huge PVP balance, allows shamans to get stronger otherwise
Now purge has two levels, both can be spammed on GCD, 2nd level removing 2 beneficial effects. I'd change 2nd purge benefit, would still remove only one beneficial effect but with a smaller CD. Let's say 1st purge has a 10 sec CD, 2nd level would have 5 sec. Both would share the same CD of course.
* Put chain heal to the bottom of the resto talent tree
* Put WF totem to the bottom of the Enhancement talent tree
* Lock up cleansing totems in the resto talent tree while keeping cure disease and cure poison available for every builds. People tend to mock me for this but these 2 totems are situational but absolutely broken. Because of two things. 1. They don't have a CD, you can spam them every GCD. 2. They cleanse the party when summoned. Forget the cleansing 1 effect from each party member every 5 seconds totem description. If they are needed, you just spam them and cleanse 1 effect from every party member every second! Compare it to abolish poison to see how broken this is.
Alternatively, would nerf cleansing totems. They can remove the poison/disease effect after every 5 sec but they wouldn't trigger immediately when summoned (5 sec is needed). In this case they could stay baseline.
* Would change how tranquil air totem works and would lock it behind the elemental talent tree.

In exchange.
Ele:
* Gets a spell damage totem at the bottom of the tree.
* Gets tranquil air totem which, instead of the -20% party threat, halves the threat generated by crits. Works differently than the pala buff and they complement eachother very well. Solves the threat spike problem coming from crits at the pumper caster groups.
* Gets mana regen after spell crits.
* Gets spell penetration to better handle high nat rez mobs.
* Gets lava burst (maybe a nerfed version, without guaranteed crit if the target has a flame shock; let's say +20% chance to crit)

Enhancement DPS (tank gets ignored in this post):
* Gets a passive melee haste ability
* Gets a weapon skill ability for 2h maces
* Bloodlust changing into a bloodlust totem, giving 20% melee haste for 10 sec for every party member in 10 yards
* Getting mana regen from melee hits
* +1 melee attack ability
* Melee crits reducing shock and stormstike CD

Resto:
* Better mana totems
* A health totem indeed feeling like a weaker hot
* A talent reducing the next healing wave's cast time by 1,5 sec or lesser healing wavwe cast time by 0,8 sec after a healing crit
* Giving a short haste bonus for targets receiving a single target crit healing from the resto
* Healing rain
* Maybe some kind of riptide

For everyone: A weapon enchancement which gives a bit of mp5.
Last edited by Akos1896 on Sun Mar 24, 2024 4:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Ninjerk
Posts: 33

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Ninjerk » Sun Mar 24, 2024 4:38 pm

^ I like a lot of what's there (don't wanna quote the whole block). I actually meant to suggest weapon skill and forgot about it by the time I posted this morning. I also thought it would be cool to give somethig like a haste buff on heals (on chain heal might end up being mega busted).

User avatar
Ataika
Posts: 608
Likes: 2 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Ataika » Sun Mar 24, 2024 4:53 pm

Noephix wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:00 am
Elemental Shaman is the most broken PvP spec in the game by far, followed by rogue and mage. Paladin is nowhere near.
most broken spec that can be countered by 1 curse

Akos1896
Posts: 496
Has liked: 2 times
Likes: 8 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Akos1896 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 4:59 pm

Ninjerk wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 4:38 pm
^ I like a lot of what's there (don't wanna quote the whole block). I actually meant to suggest weapon skill and forgot about it by the time I posted this morning. I also thought it would be cool to give somethig like a haste buff on heals (on chain heal might end up being mega busted).
Valid, made some patches in the original post. Also forgot about caster weapon enhancement. I'm somewhat biased there because weapon enhancement should be enhancement tree's bread and butter but adding the casters one which they can use too might be fine. Earthliving weapon would be resto-only, made up a mana regen weapon enhancement instead.

User avatar
Manletow
Posts: 219
Has liked: 1 time
Likes: 2 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Manletow » Sat Mar 30, 2024 1:38 pm

Akos1896 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:42 pm
Enhancement DPS (tank gets ignored in this post):
you instantly lost me

Enhancement Shaman is designed as a "cheerleader" "faction mascot" class that their teammates naturally rally around.
Enhancement is intended to 'Enhance' their teams abilities, keep them healthy, and act as a disrupter of the enemy (to protecc your teammates)
Taking hits (tanking) to protect your beloved Horde besties in absolutely in line with a "tribal leader/guardian" theme.

Purge is a great example of how Shaman is intended to open up opportunities for their teammates to exploit.
Purge is meant to be overpowered as it is the Horde/Shaman counterpart to Ally/Paladin "Cleanse" -- which is also overpowered.

Their mistake was making Purge cost too low -- so its a bit oppressive in PVP.
In other words -- merely increase the mana cost -- not destroy its identity by making it just a crappier version of 'Dispel'.

As for "Cleanse" -- Paladins damage needs to be nerfed (remove Holy Strike) to make that ability fair again.
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Akos1896
Posts: 496
Has liked: 2 times
Likes: 8 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Akos1896 » Sat Mar 30, 2024 1:45 pm

Manletow wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2024 1:38 pm
Akos1896 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:42 pm
Enhancement DPS (tank gets ignored in this post):
you instantly lost me

Enhancement Shaman is designed as a "cheerleader" "faction mascot" class that their teammates naturally rally around.
Enhancement is intended to 'Enhance' their teams abilities, keep them healthy, and act as a disrupter of the enemy (to protecc your teammates)
Taking hits (tanking) to protect your beloved Horde besties in absolutely in line with a "tribal leader/guardian" theme.

Purge is a great example of how Shaman is intended to open up opportunities for their teammates to exploit.
Purge is meant to be overpowered as it is the Horde/Shaman counterpart to Ally/Paladin "Cleanse" -- which is also overpowered.

Their mistake was making Purge cost too low -- so its a bit oppressive in PVP.
In other words -- merely increase the mana cost -- not destroy its identity by making it just a crappier version of 'Dispel'.

As for "Cleanse" -- Paladins damage needs to be nerfed (remove Holy Strike) to make that ability fair again.
I have two problems with the mascot idea:
1. After TWOW tweaks, palas (shaman's counterpart) are not mascots.
2. Resto shaman is anything but a mascot.

We'd need to accept a build being subpar (a utility mascot) while their counterpart at the Alliance is a very good DPS choice and this did not break the game (PVE, it def broke PVP).
We'd also need to accept that another build from the same class is much more than a mascot, while almost having the same utility.
I by no means want to break the game. But if a class was badly designed by Blizzard (and corrected at later expansions) that we should handle this as a mistake, not as a reference point.

User avatar
Manletow
Posts: 219
Has liked: 1 time
Likes: 2 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Manletow » Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:07 pm

Akos1896 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2024 1:45 pm
I have two problems with the mascot idea:
1. After TWOW tweaks, palas (shaman's counterpart) are not mascots.
2. Resto shaman is anything but a mascot.

Paladin buffs did not break the game (PVE, it def broke PVP).
if a class was badly designed by Blizzard (and corrected at later expansions)
Retribution Talent tree was specifically designed to be the "PVP spec". (and it was perfectly viable for this purpose)
Just like Mage "Arcane" tree was the "PVP Spec."

Holy/Prot were the mascot specs.

Yes Holy Strike broke PVP (which is 50% of the game) and should be removed from the game.

Yes the final capstone talent of Resto is literally to boost teammates Mana regen -- Resto are Mega Mascots.

"Later expansions" like Wrath?
That was a disaster for Enhancement Shaman imo -- as it stripped out all semblance of Tanking and generally focused on Melee/spell DPS rather than supporting others.
In other words -- it ruined what made the class/spec special to me. Grody AF maintenance_turtle
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Akos1896
Posts: 496
Has liked: 2 times
Likes: 8 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Akos1896 » Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:13 pm

Depends on how we define mascot.
Utility? Yes (but tbh mana tide is a bad utility totem; never seen a resto being invited to a mana regen group just because they have it).
Being inferior in their role? No. Restos have the best raid heal talent in the game and are consistently in the top end of raid healing stats.

For holy pala I 50% agree. They start of as a mascot but the moment they accumulate enough +spell crit, they blow off and become a very valid build. Best tank healers of the game.
Prot... If you say that mascot is suboptimal in his role, you don't want a tank to be a mascot. Having utility is nice but raid wipes are not. I'd personally further buff prot pala a bit (but having no knwoledge, how) but as far as I see they fare well here until BWL even as MT.

Arcanes' are in a weird spot in TWOW. With the changes, if you play arcane correctly, you are a mana battery. You need a bunch of +spirit but once done, your brilliance aura makes you a prime innervate target. They are very interesting now.

Noephix
Posts: 26

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Noephix » Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:40 pm

Manletow wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:07 pm

Retribution Talent tree was specifically designed to be the "PVP spec".
This is a lie. Kevin Jordan himself said that he meant retri to be the primary paladin spec in PvE but failed at it and it's his biggest regret regarding vanilla WoW. He even said in one interview that reworking retri into a good spec would be the one thing he'd do if he had a chance.

User avatar
Manletow
Posts: 219
Has liked: 1 time
Likes: 2 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Manletow » Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:38 pm

Noephix wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 2:40 pm
Manletow wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:07 pm

Retribution Talent tree was specifically designed to be the "PVP spec".
This is a lie. Kevin Jordan himself said that he meant retri to be the primary paladin spec in PvE but failed at it and it's his biggest regret regarding vanilla WoW. He even said in one interview that reworking retri into a good spec would be the one thing he'd do if he had a chance.
Kevin Jordan may have been the "mastermind" behind class design -- but others on the team certainly had some input/contributions to the matter. His quotes are not the Word of God.
(I assume your quote is accurate -- you didnt provide source)

"primary paladin spec in PvE" I assume you meant to say "primary Pala DPS spec"

Retribution was already "reworked" during Vanilla
Actually twice if you count the TBC prepatch.

Ret Talent Tree in Vanilla 1.1 was truly horrid -- no idea what it was supposed to be.
It was leaning toward PVP due to survivability talents and Seal of Command only does bonus damage to stunned targets (raid bosses cant be stunned)

But yeah it was so muddled that it sucked at everything.

1.12 Ret Talent Tree most certainly is aimed towards PVP.

If he wanted it to be "Raid DPS powerhouse" yes he failed epically.
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

Noephix
Posts: 26

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Noephix » Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:44 am

Manletow wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:38 pm
"primary paladin spec in PvE" I assume you meant to say "primary Pala DPS spec"
If you assume....

As far as I remember he meant primary spec in general, the one that most players would use.

Froghijab420
Posts: 8

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Froghijab420 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 1:14 am

While Shaman burst is strong, nearly every class has equally strong burst (Conflag lock, Trueshot hunter, now paladins etc); not to mention Shaman doesn't have many Naxx geared options like other classes (aka they fall off).

Shamans identity in classic is an offensive support - (the opposite of the Paladin being the strongest defensive support). No need to nerf purge/shocks.

Each class having their own overpowered things is what made classic fun.

You mention no goofy changes for enhancement shaman, but your idea of changes to fix enhance shaman is dumb things like modifying lightning shield lmao.

Akos1896
Posts: 496
Has liked: 2 times
Likes: 8 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Akos1896 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:28 am

I like the offensive support definition.

User avatar
Manletow
Posts: 219
Has liked: 1 time
Likes: 2 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Manletow » Sun May 05, 2024 1:39 pm

Froghijab420 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2024 1:14 am
While Shaman burst is strong, nearly every class has equally strong burst (Conflag lock, Trueshot hunter, now paladins etc)

Shamans identity in classic is an offensive support - (the opposite of the Paladin being the strongest defensive support). No need to nerf purge/shocks.

Each class having their own overpowered things is what made classic fun.

You mention no goofy changes for enhancement shaman, but your idea of changes to fix enhance shaman is dumb things like modifying lightning shield lmao.
Destruction Warlock (and to a lesser extent Hunter) is extremely weak defensively so they can have huge burst. its fair
Shaman is very tanky and their Burst is huge -- not fair
Paladins have huge burst now as well. thats true... and it should NOT be true. thus i demand them be nerfed

Some 'overpowered' things are fine -- like Mortal Strike. As it is hard to obtain that ability and requires 30 rage + melee range...
Purge is not fine as it is oppressive and ruins others fun via taking their Magic buffs away very easily
Why even buff yourself/teammates when you know these buffs can be taken away in a literal second?
Its just a toxic ability for the overall health/enjoyment of PVP

Never said "Enhancement is broken" or "in need of fixing". They are generally fine and dandy -- but there is room for some modest improvements
A minor tweak to a rather shitty ability is not a 'goofy' change.
Indeed -- no one uses Lightning Shield anymore as the new custom shields are superior.
Shove your 'lmao' up your ass
Akos1896 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:28 am
I like the offensive support definition.
You shouldn't though, as it is a rather stupid descriptor.
Resto is not offensive.
Enhancement had around 21 Talent points dedicated to Defense and only around 20 to Offense.
So more Tank-oriented not DPS.

So 66% of Shamans are not intended to be "Offense" focused.
Though its true they did more damage than Paladins -- as they should -- considering Paladins have heavier armor/better defensive abilities.
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

User avatar
Manletow
Posts: 219
Has liked: 1 time
Likes: 2 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Manletow » Fri May 24, 2024 12:05 pm

I forgot to mention some other changes I had in mind -- like reduced cooldown on Mana Tide Totem and Bloodlust to 3 min or 4 min -- as these capstone talents are rather mid.

They do see play so its not a big deal but could use a lil boost imo.

Also Blizzard intended Shaman to be swapping Weapon Enchantments often (to fit new situations).
Thats why they only last 5 mins.
The problem is no one bothers with this.
They just choose a favorite and stick with it 99% of the time.
In fact often basing gear/talents around their fav Enchantment.

Point is I want to make Blizzard intention more viable. Like Turtle Staff say they want to.

So...
make it so that Rockbiter/Frostbrand/Etc last 10 mins by default (simply for quality of life)
but increase the Mana costs by 33%
HOWEVER
REDUCE the cost by 66% if you are 'overwriting' an existing Enchant.
This incentivizes swapping around between different Enchants for different situations.
Could make this an Enhancement Shaman talent as they are ones that are themed around Enchants/Buffs/Etc
Paladin is broken in PVP.
Frost Mage is broken in PVP/PVE.
Warrior is awful in PVP.
Feral Druid is mediocre in PVP.
Enhancement Shaman is fine. Stop begging for goofy custom abilities.

User avatar
Daedalus007
Posts: 52
Has liked: 1 time
Likes: 6 times

Re: Sensible Shaman Tweaks 2.0

Post by Daedalus007 » Sat May 25, 2024 7:40 pm

There are two major issues I see when it comes to class balance.
OP, by their own signature, is biased for/against certain classes already and their experience may be tainted by one-off PvP encounters rather than a nuanced full-bodied experience in both PvE and PvP.

Unfortunately the OP isn't alone in this and it causes many 'changes' to happen without some more independent testing on a test server where you have insta-60 classes with a PvP/professions vendor to try out whatever crazy combos they like.

I don't feel we need to worry about 'Blizzard intentions' on a custom vanilla server. For lore we've already diverged slightly and we're ignoring Outland and Northrend altogether. Blizzard had goofy itemization like items that gave negative stats. They had to work at the time with a newly-created phenomenon in WoW amassing so many players so quickly that they struggled to support the server loads. They also dealt with obvious staff biases for/against certain classes. I'd prefer that twow staff moves away from copying Blizzard and instead forges a better path forward for EVERY class including Shamans.

How?

Balance PvP damage and PvE damage separately. Nerf the PvP damage of certain abilities but leave the PvE damage alone. Target checks are already done on certain spells/skills/abilities (can't cast healing on enemy targets for instance) so 'is it an enemy player yes/no' check on offensive abilities can adjust the damage up or down as needed without being a detriment to PvE.

Get data from an independent test server with NPCs that spawn whatever and train whatever so that the PvPers get to test out in a more neutral environment without needing to be at a 'disadvantage' all the time (the random Paladin who has Level 300 engineering stunlocking someone for instance then they complain the whole class is 'broken' because of that). This also reduces many people who have impossible scenarios of classes using near-end-of-talent-tree talents in two separate talent trees as justification for vitriol against other classes. If everyone can play on this test server then they and staff alike can use the data on said test server before making sweeping class changes.

Now as far as Shaman changes I'd love to see the removal of all the 'mana reduction' talents and to just make those mana cost reductions baseline. Shamans are about as powerful as they need to be but mana is always an issue. It will also give a bit more flexibility in not REQUIRING Water Shield to always need to be on 100% uptime for every spec.

Thunderhead is an interesting talent but honestly should be removed and made baseline to allow the Shaman to buff both themselves and 1 other ally (the tank or arena buddy) with whatever shield (Lightning, Earth, Water, etc) simultaneously.

As for the rest it is up to the twow dev team to determine how much PvP balancing they want to do on an ostensibly PvE server.

Post Reply