How are druids atm?

Noephix
Posts: 26

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Noephix » Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:14 am

Jc473 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:24 am
The last part of this phrase exists because of the versatility of the hybrid. Simply put, they can do things that a master of one cannot.
Ah, goodold "hybrid tax" argument.
This is not how WoW works in practice. It didn't work back then and it doesn't work now. If hybrids perform below 95% of a specialized class in a specialized role - they aren't getting invited. This is a fact supported by literal decades of WoW history.

Jc473
Posts: 418

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Jc473 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 2:02 pm

Noephix wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 11:14 am
Jc473 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:24 am
The last part of this phrase exists because of the versatility of the hybrid. Simply put, they can do things that a master of one cannot.
Ah, goodold "hybrid tax" argument.
This is not how WoW works in practice. It didn't work back then and it doesn't work now. If hybrids perform below 95% of a specialized class in a specialized role - they aren't getting invited. This is a fact supported by literal decades of WoW history.
The environment that you are referring to is mainly a minmax one. This is backed up by your assertion that even if the hybrid output was as high as 95%, they still wouldn't be invited. This is a perfect example of minmax culture that will optimise everything to a fault. I'm going to assume your statement is typically based on raiding. An area of the game which people seem to regard as the 'be all and end all' of gameplay. In reality, this still represents a niche activity and the majority of players enjoy non-raiding ones. In these other areas, hybrids certainly do 'work in practice' and are very effective. Even so, there are plenty of casual raiding guilds who will welcome hybrids.

All that said, I will say that there is an inherent design flaw for big raids (40 people) that doesn't allow hybrids to showcase their versatility. Simply put, when you can bring 40 specialists and just 'play well', why would you need hybrids? The minmax folks figured this out and started to 'spread the word'. I think they'd need to redesign a lot of raids to allow hybrids to flourish but I doubt they'd do that just to appease the minmax raiders. I also hope that they don't allow hybrids to match the output of the specialist counterparts; that would make hybrids absurdly overpowered if you consider all aspects of the game.

Drubarrymooer
Posts: 870

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Drubarrymooer » Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:00 pm

The hybrid tax is innane. Your can't switch gear or specs mid raid in vanilla/tbc. Yes you can here but that isn't the way the game was originally designed. Besides that, warriors are allegedly bis tanks and bis DPS ...where is the hybrid tax for them? Or are you not a hybrid if you can't heal too? That seems like a weird arbitrary delineating line IMHO.

As for positions in raids, druids do good DPS, good threat, and are good healers. They also bring CC to places like BWL, poison cleanses and decurses, etc.

If you're running with a min maxing guild, that stinks if they're not taking a druid for 4% more crit in at least one group.

Jc473
Posts: 418

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Jc473 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:03 pm

Drubarrymooer wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:00 pm
The hybrid tax is innane. Your can't switch gear or specs mid raid in vanilla/tbc. Yes you can here but that isn't the way the game was originally designed. Besides that, warriors are allegedly bis tanks and bis DPS ...where is the hybrid tax for them? Or are you not a hybrid if you can't heal too? That seems like a weird arbitrary delineating line IMHO.

As for positions in raids, druids do good DPS, good threat, and are good healers. They also bring CC to places like BWL, poison cleanses and decurses, etc.

If you're running with a min maxing guild, that stinks if they're not taking a druid for 4% more crit in at least one group.
I completely agree re warriors being hybrids. Hybrids = can fulfil more than one role.
I think their DPS scaling off the charts was an oversight by the original devs. It's something that I hope that Vanilla+ servers can address.

The hybrid tax is something that is absolutely necessary when considering the entire breadth of the game. The flexibility to do fulfil (to some extent) multiple roles in things like leveling, dungeons, PvP etc is incredibly powerful. The people wanting to dispose of hybrid tax are typically only looking through of the lens of raiding. As mentioned, raiding suffers from design issues which don't allow hybrids to show off their versatility. Interestingly, TWoW at least offers respecing mid-raid which is a big boost to hybrids' contribution. But, mid-combat versatility isn't really possible in the current design.

The previous poster (Noephix) suggested that even if hybrids were buffed to 95% output of a specialised class, they'd still not get invited to a raid. Can we take a moment to reflect on the buffs that some hybrids have received so far in TWoW? Consider how powerful/broken Paladins, Druids (feral) & Priests (shadow) are in PvP right now? Yet, if you look at their typical raid DPS, they fall well short of the specialised classes. Should we buff their output by another, say, 20-40%? Can you imagine how much more people would be crying about them in PvP?

Akos1896
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Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Akos1896 » Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:14 pm

Jc473 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:03 pm
Drubarrymooer wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 3:00 pm
The hybrid tax is innane. Your can't switch gear or specs mid raid in vanilla/tbc. Yes you can here but that isn't the way the game was originally designed. Besides that, warriors are allegedly bis tanks and bis DPS ...where is the hybrid tax for them? Or are you not a hybrid if you can't heal too? That seems like a weird arbitrary delineating line IMHO.

As for positions in raids, druids do good DPS, good threat, and are good healers. They also bring CC to places like BWL, poison cleanses and decurses, etc.

If you're running with a min maxing guild, that stinks if they're not taking a druid for 4% more crit in at least one group.
I completely agree re warriors being hybrids. Hybrids = can fulfil more than one role.
I think their DPS scaling off the charts was an oversight by the original devs. It's something that I hope that Vanilla+ servers can address.

The hybrid tax is something that is absolutely necessary when considering the entire breadth of the game. The flexibility to do fulfil (to some extent) multiple roles in things like leveling, dungeons, PvP etc is incredibly powerful. The people wanting to dispose of hybrid tax are typically only looking through of the lens of raiding. As mentioned, raiding suffers from design issues which don't allow hybrids to show off their versatility. Interestingly, TWoW at least offers respecing mid-raid which is a big boost to hybrids' contribution. But, mid-combat versatility isn't really possible in the current design.

The previous poster (Noephix) suggested that even if hybrids were buffed to 95% output of a specialised class, they'd still not get invited to a raid. Can we take a moment to reflect on the buffs that some hybrids have received so far in TWoW? Consider how powerful/broken Paladins, Druids (feral) & Priests (shadow) are in PvP right now? Yet, if you look at their typical raid DPS, they fall well short of the specialised classes. Should we buff their output by another, say, 20-40%? Can you imagine how much more people would be crying about them in PvP?
It's personal but I'd only call someone hybrid if the person can perform many roles without respeccing. F.ex. a deep prot will never become a semi decent DPS but a moonkin can dire bear form any moment in a dungeon if a tank dies and be a decent tank, or an enh shaman can step away and start healing if it is needed.
From a design perspective it is interesting. In PVP being a hybrid is a big advantage but at raiding... Each raid spot represents a set of roles you're expected to cover and people only check how good you are in that given role. It is almost never impotant how well you can backup at other roles (everyone is assigned to a specialization and is evaluated by the same).

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Ragetto
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Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Ragetto » Sun Mar 24, 2024 6:03 pm

I can give an opinion as a reasonably well-equipped PvP hunter (not 100% optimal but decent): in this context, the feral druid is powerful and extremely resilient (bear form), almost to the point of being unkillable (considering that in a tough spot, they can heal, control the distance, etc.). Honestly, my only way of not dying against a well-equipped and well-played feral druid is often to trap and... run away (which unfortunately isn't the solution in all contexts). If I kill them (which happens rarely), it's because the druid made several mistakes and/or has significantly inferior gear.

A top-tier class in ALL BGs (stealth/speed in cat form, and the ability to absorb damage in bear form)

Unless there's a huge nerf, you won't be useless at all, and with a bit of gear, you'll even be very useful.

PS: Of course, a magic damage class might not feel the same in 1v1, but I think we can all agree on the impact of druids in BGs.

PPS (edit): I hadn't realized the topic was actually quite old sad_turtle

Noephix
Posts: 26

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Noephix » Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:04 pm

Jc473 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:03 pm
The previous poster (Noephix) suggested that even if hybrids were buffed to 95% output of a specialised class, they'd still not get invited to a raid. Can we take a moment to reflect on the buffs that some hybrids have received so far in TWoW? Consider how powerful/broken Paladins, Druids (feral) & Priests (shadow) are in PvP right now? Yet, if you look at their typical raid DPS, they fall well short of the specialised classes. Should we buff their output by another, say, 20-40%? Can you imagine how much more people would be crying about them in PvP?
Oh, another one of those... Paladins are not OP, they are just good at stomping bad players. Like Riki in DOTA or Anubis in Smite. Mage and Rogue are top pvp classes. Warlock is OP in 1v1 duels. Druids are WSG flag carriers and that's it. SPriests... Yeah, they melt faces when everyone is fresh and running around in greens, but they don't scale that well with gear. Other Naxx-geared casters are better than Naxx-geared spriest.

Akos1896 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:14 pm

It's personal but I'd only call someone hybrid if the person can perform many roles without respeccing. F.ex. a deep prot will never become a semi decent DPS but a moonkin can dire bear form any moment in a dungeon if a tank dies and be a decent tank
A moonkin will never become a semi decent tank but a deep prot warrior can berserker stance any moment in a dungeon if there's another tank and be a decent DPS. See what I did?

Akos1896
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Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Akos1896 » Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:05 pm

Yes, but you stretched this a bit.
A deep prot, lacking relevant talents in fury and (maybe in arms) tree is a really bad DPS and is avoided.
However, a moonkin can prevent a wipe anytime if a tank dies in a dungeon or completely change a fight in open world.
They can do it because shapeshifting itself grants you buffs and new abilities. Sure, you lack the talents to be an optimal tank but suddenly you are extremely bulky and you can taunt. Not in raid, though, but everywhere else, yes.
Following your logic an ele shaman is a melee hybrid because they can come in for a punch + a weird developer has put elemental devastation in the ele talent tree.

Jc473
Posts: 418

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Jc473 » Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:42 am

Noephix wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:04 pm
Jc473 wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2024 5:03 pm
The previous poster (Noephix) suggested that even if hybrids were buffed to 95% output of a specialised class, they'd still not get invited to a raid. Can we take a moment to reflect on the buffs that some hybrids have received so far in TWoW? Consider how powerful/broken Paladins, Druids (feral) & Priests (shadow) are in PvP right now? Yet, if you look at their typical raid DPS, they fall well short of the specialised classes. Should we buff their output by another, say, 20-40%? Can you imagine how much more people would be crying about them in PvP?
Oh, another one of those... Paladins are not OP, they are just good at stomping bad players. Like Riki in DOTA or Anubis in Smite. Mage and Rogue are top pvp classes. Warlock is OP in 1v1 duels. Druids are WSG flag carriers and that's it. SPriests... Yeah, they melt faces when everyone is fresh and running around in greens, but they don't scale that well with gear. Other Naxx-geared casters are better than Naxx-geared spriest.
Well, all I can say is that there's no shortage of feedback on the PvE realm about Paladins' power levels right now. My experience is coming from Tel'Abim where there is far less of a gear disparity as you described because the server is progressing. Again, there's been ample feedback from Horde (and Alliance) players that Paladins have been too strong since the start of this server. So, I think the feedback has been plentiful and very justified unless you want to downplay all of the Tel'Abim player feedback since the inception of the server...

Also, you will see when the next round of class changes comes, Paladins will get their deserved nerfs. Akalix even acknowledged this some time ago on the Discord channel. So, I don't know what else to say.... there's a whole host of player feedback as well as acknowledgement from TWoW staff. These changes will be coming and it seems that there's a minority of people who will not see it coming and complain. I can only assume they are either Alliance players or Paladins....

Noephix
Posts: 26

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Noephix » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:45 pm

Jc473 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:42 am

Again, there's been ample feedback from Horde (and Alliance) players that Paladins have been too strong since the start of this server.
You mean those rank 10+ players that are still wearing quest greens? 90% of TWOW players don't know how to play their class and what their buttons do. Like i already said - paladin is a noobstomper class. It punishes bad players but isn't a danger for good ones. Except for 1v1 against warriors of course - but warrior is probably the worst 1v1 class.

Jc473
Posts: 418

Re: How are druids atm?

Post by Jc473 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:22 pm

Noephix wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:45 pm
Jc473 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2024 3:42 am

Again, there's been ample feedback from Horde (and Alliance) players that Paladins have been too strong since the start of this server.
You mean those rank 10+ players that are still wearing quest greens? 90% of TWOW players don't know how to play their class and what their buttons do. Like i already said - paladin is a noobstomper class. It punishes bad players but isn't a danger for good ones. Except for 1v1 against warriors of course - but warrior is probably the worst 1v1 class.
Your argument is effectively a "learn to play" one. I could accept this if it was a minority of players who are complaining about this and for a short period of time. Instead, we have ample feedback from a lot of players (90%, to quote you...) over quite a long period of time if you include the PvE server experience.

If this many players are complaining and for this length of time, it tends to suggest that there is something fundamentally wrong with the balance and you cannot simply say "people suck and need to get better...".

As mentioned, this isn't really a debate because the Paladin nerfs will be coming shortly; the staff have said so. As to what the nerfs will be? Well, plenty of discussion to be had there...

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