Discussing the Vanilla lore behind Forsaken Paladins and Dwarf Shamans

[Rayken]

I wanted to start a topic to actually dive into the Vanilla era lore that might show us these things happen, and already exist within the game world.

Forsaken
For Undead/Forsaken Paladins, we have two clear examples of undead using Paladin or Holy abilities in the lore, that Blizzard specifically chose. One of these was changed to a Warrior in Cataclysm, because they must have realized it was a bit of an oversight, but regardless, during Vanilla WoW he was indeed an undead (Ghost) Paladin.

Commander Springvale of Shadowfang Keep
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Comman ... _(Classic)

He's an often overlooked example of an undead/unholy creature that is clearly still connected and able to call upon the Holy Light, as a Paladin, not a Priest. We don't know anything about him, and I'm not familiar with any lore about this character other than the fact he was a human in life and clearly a Paladin.

Sir Zeliek of Naxxramas
https://vanilla-wow-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Sir_Zeliek

The clearest example we have in all of vanilla WoW lore, Sir Zeliek is an undead Paladin. So faithful was he in life, that no matter how unholy of an abomination he became, he maintained his connection to the Holy Light and it could not be severed. It is proof positive in vanilla lore that The Light WILL answer anything, depending upon faith. However, I see why this could be an issue because Sir Zeliek is supposed to be an anomaly, a rare individual example of this in all of lore.

With all of this being said, there's no reason other high ranking Paladins, whether from the High Elf ranks, Dwarf ranks, or Human ranks, that fell to the Scourge, could not have been dug up in Tirisfal and found their way back to the Light. This could be a separate quest line within Tirisfal, with the Paladin trainer hiding behind a crypt or something, that introduces how unique your character is, and it could fall within the lore constraints of the era quite easily.


Dwarves
For Dwarf Shamans, the case is actually exceedingly easy and doesn't require any convincing. The entirety of the Wildhammer Clan, the ones responsible for helping the Alliance in the Second War, and the ones who brought Gryphon riding to all of the Alliance, are at their core, Shamans. There are at least a dozen examples of Dwarf Shamans in Vanilla WoW in the Hinterlands/Aerie Peak but the prominent ones all have many Shaman spells and abilities.

Here is just one
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fraggar_Thundermantle

It would not be a stretch at all to say that the Dwarf Shaman you play is a Wildhammer Dwarf, or, to put Wildhammer ambassadors around Ironforge. The questlines wouldn't be anything special, because, that's just how ingrained Dwarf Shamans already are in Vanilla WoW.


Ultimately, I think this depends upon the notion that Paladins should exist on Horde, and Shamans should exist on Alliance. The fact is, Shamans already do exist in the Alliance, but Paladins on the Horde are a stretch. It holds back potential for the future of WoW, but, adding them in this manner does change the nature of WoW.

Whatever the case lorewise may be, Forsaken Paladins and Dwarf Shamans make a HELL of a lot more sense and fit thematically and lorewise much, much better than the abominations we got in TBC... Evil, corrupt, Blood Elf "Paladins" stealing The Light from an Angel space god crystal being? Space Aliens (Who traveled in Crystal Space Ships) that were "Good" Eredar, practicing Shamanism?

Okay.

Anyways, let's discuss!

[Akos1896]

My main problem with undead paladins is holy spells. Undead priests exist and players can create a class/race combination which is in an eternal state of suffering. But at least those characters don't have to rely on the light, they can go shadow. All paladin has is light. If you create an undead paladin, by lore, you basically play with a toon who has immense pain every second you play him, and every second you use a non-melee ability. It would be cruelty because paladins can't switch to another school of magic.

[Jc473]

The clearest example we have in all of vanilla WoW lore, Sir Zeliek is an undead Paladin. So faithful was he in life, that no matter how unholy of an abomination he became, he maintained his connection to the Holy Light and it could not be severed. It is proof positive in vanilla lore that The Light WILL answer anything, depending upon faith. However, I see why this could be an issue because Sir Zeliek is supposed to be an anomaly, a rare individual example of this in all of lore.

With all of this being said, there's no reason other high ranking Paladins, whether from the High Elf ranks, Dwarf ranks, or Human ranks, that fell to the Scourge, could not have been dug up in Tirisfal and found their way back to the Light.

You've already given the reason; Sir Zeliek is an exceptional case. Yes, you've suggested that 'high ranking' status of resurrected folks could also make them 'exceptional', but would this really be true if you had a whole bunch of undead paladins running around the world? Furthermore, one of the hallmarks of Vanilla is that the average player isn't the 'hero of Azeroth' (as per later expansions). Instead, we are meant to be average joes who, when banded together, can achieve significant things. We are not meant to be special so I don't think it makes sense to use exceptional cases to justify the inclusion of forsaken paladins.

[Sylveria]

Here we go again.. I'm gonna wrap up all my knowledge about Priests, Paladins, the Holy Light and what was kinda "changed" or "retconned" by Blizzard with vanilla WoW (and to me never made any sense.)

First of all: Priests.

What we got in WoW as Priest is actually a simplified version of what priests in WoW are. Depending on the race/culture priests would be something completly different. Their powers are no "magic" in the common sense like mages or warlocks have it, but those are powers gifted by their respective gods/faiths.
The nightelves for example don't wield the powers of the Light, but those of Elune. It's a completly different faith.
Same goes for the trolls. They neither believe in the light, nor Elune. Their faith lies in the Loa.
I'll handle the complete topic about the Undead a bit later.

Paladins & The Holy Light:

The Order of the Silver Hand was founded by Archbishop Alonsus Faol, and yes as hilarious as it might sound, paladins are "combat priests". They learned to weaponize the light against the forces of evil and the unnatural. And one thing that was shown multiple times, in WarCraft II as well as in WarCraft III is that the Light is harming the undead. In WarCraft II Paladins had the exorcism spell that could only harm the Deathknights from the Horde and Skeletons (Deathknights in WarCraft II were the dead bodys of former Stormwind Knights infused with the warlock spirits of the Shadow Council, so basically they're undead).
In WarCraft III the same: The Holy Light spell from WarCraft III could be used to heal allied units EXCEPT undead (and mechanical) units.. and could be used as an attack against Undead - again here we have: Light harms Undead.

Paladins and Undead:

So here we have the big argument about the holy light harming the undead. But what about Paladins TURNING undead? Here we have two prime examples what happened to them: Prince Arthas Menethil and Alexandros Morgraine. Both Paladins, bot with an actual big background story and both lost their connection to the light, unable to wield and use it anymore when they turned undead.

Yes, i already know that people like to point to Sir Zeliek. But seriously. :D Here comes a new character out of nowhere, never heared before in the history of WarCraft and we just accept it without questioning it? ^^ This alone is one of my biggest criticisms about Vanilla.
And even if: Sir Zeliek would then be an exceptional case, that doesn't mean that there would be enough undead around capable of being paladin. Else we can ride the wave and accept all later retcons as well. :/

I mentioned earlier, that Priests were a simplified version in WoW and would differ depending on their race and culture. Same goes for undead priests. They'd only be shadow priests. YES, BUT that wouldn't mean they'd only be capable of offensive spells. Things like "Shadow Heal" was a thing, at least in WC3 or so if i remember correctly. So if we'd make the undead priests true to their culture, all spells would need to be shadow themed, even the healing(holy) ones.

And since it's been mentioned regarding Dwarves and Shamanism. I don't know where you people get it that the Wildhammers are supposed to be Shamans, but their Stormhammers are actually more of titanic magic, not related to shamanism.
Or did you know, that the warriors thunderclap was originally designed to be a shaman ability but was moved to the warrior. Does that mean that the warriors are now shamans as well? :D

The linked Fraggar Thundermantle was classified as a shaman after Cataclysm, when the dwarfes got their shamans. He got his shaman abilities after cataclysm release.

And if you still stand by your point, please explain to me why Arthas and Alexandros Morgraine lost their connection to the light, especially Morgraine.

[Akos1896]

I love your description, very well done.
For thunderclap trivia -> Do you think that thunderclap was designed as the enhancement shaman's (tank, as per earlier design) multi-target threat-generator? Seems like a missing item from a toolbox which never got finished because Blizzard changed the design idea of enh shamans. Even the name's ability sounds more shaman-like.

[Bellybutton]

Undead paladins should never be playable. Commander Springvale is likely an oversight and Sir Zeliek is specifically an exception to the rule due to his uncompromising faith and the fact that his actions aren't entirely his own due to being raised by a necromancer.

The existence of one (maybe two, if you count Springvale) Undead paladins isn't enough to justify making the concept playable, especially when besides Sir Zeliek, all of the lore literally points to Paladins specifically being formed to counter the original Horde's dark magic such as undeath and fel magic. Paladins' use of the Holy Light against the Undead is more potent than a Holy Light priest's use of the Holy Light because unlike Priests, Paladins were trained to weaponize the light AGAINST the original Horde and its magic. In contrast, Priests of the Holy Light didn't learn to wield the Light for the sole purpose of smiting down evil, hence why a Priests' Holy Light is less potent than a Paladin's Holy Light against undeath. There are lore examples of Undead priests wielding the actual Holy Light, but said characters aren't too common and for all intents and purposes, the playable Undead priests practice the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, which is merely a different interpretation of the Light.

There's also the issue that unlike Priests, Paladins specifically swear a very specific oath and will literally lose their powers if they knowingly or willingly break that oath and do evil. Forsaken even in vanilla, despite breaking free from the Scourge, are canonically stated to have their minds and morality twisted by the curse of undeath and the trauma inflicted upon them in life. A Forsaken that upholds the values championed by a Paladin would be so rare that making an entire class out of it is grasping at straws.

[Zvyrhol]

Wasn't Shamanism specific thing that was brought by Orcs from Draenor to Azeroth? I remember someting like that said in character creation menu in Vanilla. Taurens and Trolls were there described as races that learnt way of Shamanism from Orcs. Wildhammer Shamans are not obvious at all. How could they learn all Shamanism from invaders from other world? Moreover, Wildhammers were living in Ironforge before War of Three Hammers. I suppose their knowledge was similar to other Dwarven clans. After they left Ironforge, not much time has passed for them to master completely unknown Shamanism.

I also don't understand any of your proofs about Wildhammer Shamans in Vanilla. From Vanilla questsm, in-game books and NPCs I don't recall any Wildhammer Shaman. Turtle WoW relies on pre TBC lore. Proofs from Cataclysm are invalid in this case.

Correct me if I'm wrong about my assumptions about Shamanism. I'm not lore master.

[Sylveria]

I love your description, very well done.
For thunderclap trivia -> Do you think that thunderclap was designed as the enhancement shaman's (tank, as per earlier design) multi-target threat-generator? Seems like a missing item from a toolbox which never got finished because Blizzard changed the design idea of enh shamans. Even the name's ability sounds more shaman-like.

At that point of WoW history the skill system in general was completly different and classes were not complete yet.

So there were no real specilizations due to skill-enhancements like "this ability does x more dmg" or anything, but you individualized your character in more basic ways: like specializing on a specific weapon type, enhancing dodge/block capabilities, having more resistance against shadow, or anything like that. tbh. in my opinion i find this early version of the talent-system very exciting. it's much more restraining when it comes to weapons for example, but many problems from today wouldn't be existent with this old system, like:

If you specialized your character in combat with axes, you obviously would have prio on an epic axe if one drops, unlike someone who's specialized in swords.

btw. when it comes to the shaman: It seems that at this point of history the shaman wasn't meant to be a melee at all, but more of a caster/healer/supporter. Like look at the shamans early Thunderclap:

It reduces Attack AND Movement Speed by 40%. Quite heavy. And besides of the totems (some of them quite different from today) the shaman had actual buffs for himself and his party. ^^
On top of it: Shamans as well as hunters had no armor upgrade. So they stayed with leather. Shamans also couldn't learn any more weapons yet (though i think it was just because they weren't fully finished at that point yet).
Another interesting thing regarding Hunter, when we're already at it: Dwarf hunters were incapable of using bows, while nightelf hunters were incapable of using guns. ^^
So the choice of race actually mattered for more than just basic stats and racial abilities.

[Akos1896]

Interesting!