PvP balance suggestions

[Bloodline1x9]

The furor talent, combined with the wolfshead helm enchant make shifting into cat form give you 40 energy for furor, and 20 with wolfshead. That's 60 energy. When you shift out of cat form and then back into it with zero energy after you've spent it in form means you have 60 free

Okay, let's try this again.
Why are you explaining to me what everyone knows?
I already wrote about it. That is Overabuse.
You didn't think that this is a broken mechanic that has no logical explanation?
The cat was conceived as a form in which the druid would deal ph damage. Like a cat and not like a constantly shape-shifting creature. Turtle admins gave damage to the cat. Now they can be themselves. Do not perform strange abuse. And if once every 10 seconds is not enough for them (this is quite often) These are the problems of druids. Because they were heavily buffed.

Why should I care about tricky tricks in pve when it interferes with pvp?
Useful anti-control prevents from playing FAIR where it matters most. If it interferes, the cat returns to the support position in raid. Clear? But I will not be so radical. Because the problem you write about is stupid. Constant reshift will disabled for cat, but damage will improve if necessary by direct increase. Any skill. And that's all. Here's how it's done. Because damage is just a number that changes with ANYTHING. For this, it is not necessary to give unbalanced opportunities in pvp.

Unfunny sarcasm aside-- in short, I know the impact of this change first hand from a PvE perspective. You don't. Learn that, please. If you want to change something for one of the game's aspects, then clearly there's going to be issues in another if you don't keep them in mind. This is one of those things, and it's obvious how little research you've done.

I wrote two solutions. Two. And one of them will not affect pvE at all. I don't care how, but druids need to be nerfed in pvp and stop being forever shifting crap. Or be it, but without dispel a control.
You are arguing in an empty place, although specifically for you we have already discussed that the second option is suitable for you. And as for the reason for the first option (10 seconds CD), don't whine, they were already given a lot on turtle (Adreanline Rush for example, which rogues get only in pve spec, not in pvp.) TOO MANY. Learn that, please. If you still have questions, it is better to read this topic from the beginning. I don't want to repeat myself.

[Mackylol]

Yada yada yada

You will be good at something. Maybe it is time to try something new?

I hope atleast that you understand that people are explaining basic things to you because it is obvious that you dont understand the game as well as you think you do.

[Akos1896]

He got an interesting point though. I'm a noob regarding druids so can't propose sound changes, but:
Is it true that constant shapeshifting makes druid OP in PVP and if yes, would a CD on shapeshift make them balanced? If no, what is needed (in your opinion) for better balance?

And for style. A game's forum will never be a gentleman's club but please keep at least a minimal respect towards the others.

[Paybacksz]

Currently, the mage has no chance against the druid because there is nothing to stop that imba.

Alliance warlocks have no chance against horde undead rogues.

Uh what. Yes they do lol. Rogue has it exceedingly hard against a geared SL warlock.

Druid are natural mage killers if they're given time. Here druid is gigabuffed so mages get slapped.

Prep rogue can keep sl warlock cc-ed for ages

[Bloodline1x9]

I hope atleast that you understand that people are explaining basic things to you because it is obvious that you dont understand the game as well as you think you do.

I understand the game better than many here. I have several characters of different classes and I talked about the imbalance of druids a year ago. But the Druids came and began to weep in this thread. Only now have people realized that Druids are really Imba.

He got an interesting point though. I'm a noob regarding druids so can't propose sound changes, but:
Is it true that constant shapeshifting makes druid OP in PVP and if yes, would a CD on shapeshift make them balanced? If no, what is needed (in your opinion) for better balance?

Druids are a class that is almost impossible to control. For this, they did little damage. And they didn't have that many items for survival. When admins buffed them, druids turned into something that has three times more capabilities than other classes. But at the same time, shapeshifting control dispel remains as their main imbalance.

No slow
No immobilize
No poly
No sap
No fear
No disarm
No mana burn in form

+30% movement
+Stealth
+Charge
+Stun
+Root
+poison clean
+cast strikes
+Conter Stealth with 1 click (Faerie Fire)
+Adrenaline Rush
+FAT
+HEAL

As a result, he will open as a rogue. But much stronger than a paper rogue, who does not have CoSH and is much easier to control and thin. A mage can fight against a rogue. Some kind of mind game. Competing cooldowns and controls. The druid will eat mage very easily, he just reshift and dispel everything. The rogue will also be killed by druid. Just in bear form. And also forbid him to use stealth to at least escape. The druid kills the warrior in Bear Form. He is fatter. He has a thick skin and a dodge. Survives better than a tank warrior. But hits harder like a dps. And if somehow the warrior injure the bear, then the druid will use Stun + Root and heal. Lol. Now that the druid has been given berserk, even the priest doesn't know how to scare off the impudent cat.

[Zahnfee]

the only thing worth changing about vanilla pvp (which is shit to begin with:-)) would be the horrible ranking system! u can not balance all classes in all specs to have the same power level to pvp with, that would be a mist of pandaria accomplisment.

Tips for vanilla pvp

Pick your class
Play your class
Learn from mistakes
improve your keybinds for pvp oriented abilities
reevaluate your talent spec and specify it to your playstyle and your pvp strengths (screw meta builds, make your own talent choices)
Duel Classes you have massive Problems with and improve your approach by preacting not reacting
macro up
play for bg objective
but most importantly
have fun, if you dont have fun try something else

[Gantulga]

Alliance warlocks have no chance against horde undead rogues.

Uh what. Yes they do lol. Rogue has it exceedingly hard against a geared SL warlock.

Druid are natural mage killers if they're given time. Here druid is gigabuffed so mages get slapped.

Prep rogue can keep sl warlock cc-ed for ages

Unless they pop a lip or restoration potion. Also, are you Bulgarian?

[Bigsmerf]

The furor talent, combined with the wolfshead helm enchant make shifting into cat form give you 40 energy for furor, and 20 with wolfshead. That's 60 energy. When you shift out of cat form and then back into it with zero energy after you've spent it in form means you have 60 free

Okay, let's try this again.
Why are you explaining to me what everyone knows?
I already wrote about it. That is Overabuse.
You didn't think that this is a broken mechanic that has no logical explanation?
The cat was conceived as a form in which the druid would deal ph damage. Like a cat and not like a constantly shape-shifting creature. Turtle admins gave damage to the cat. Now they can be themselves. Do not perform strange abuse. And if once every 10 seconds is not enough for them (this is quite often) These are the problems of druids. Because they were heavily buffed.

Why should I care about tricky tricks in pve when it interferes with pvp?
Useful anti-control prevents from playing FAIR where it matters most. If it interferes, the cat returns to the support position in raid. Clear? But I will not be so radical. Because the problem you write about is stupid. Constant reshift will disabled for cat, but damage will improve if necessary by direct increase. Any skill. And that's all. Here's how it's done. Because damage is just a number that changes with ANYTHING. For this, it is not necessary to give unbalanced opportunities in pvp.

Unfunny sarcasm aside-- in short, I know the impact of this change first hand from a PvE perspective. You don't. Learn that, please. If you want to change something for one of the game's aspects, then clearly there's going to be issues in another if you don't keep them in mind. This is one of those things, and it's obvious how little research you've done.

I wrote two solutions. Two. And one of them will not affect pvE at all. I don't care how, but druids need to be nerfed in pvp and stop being forever shifting crap. Or be it, but without dispel a control.
You are arguing in an empty place, although specifically for you we have already discussed that the second option is suitable for you. And as for the reason for the first option (10 seconds CD), don't whine, they were already given a lot on turtle (Adreanline Rush for example, which rogues get only in pve spec, not in pvp.) TOO MANY. Learn that, please. If you still have questions, it is better to read this topic from the beginning. I don't want to repeat myself.

Y'know what, I think I'll just skip addressing all of this in detail. Just... Getting irritating. Roots and slows still exist in PvE though. Might be something to mention.

Also, there's no abuse happening here. It's a mechanic implemented into and being used within the game. Get. The fuck. Over it.

[Borefficz]

No mention of paladin but wants druid nerfed, interesting.

[Bigsmerf]

No mention of paladin but wants druid nerfed, interesting.

Interesting indeed...

[Paybacksz]

No mention of paladin but wants druid nerfed, interesting.

He wants to nerf druids because he plays mage and gets raped by druids
Biased nerf

[Bigsmerf]

No mention of paladin but wants druid nerfed, interesting.

He wants to nerf druids because he plays mage and gets raped by druids
Biased nerf

What? No, no. This is supposed to help EVERYONE! Clearly Bloodline is just looking out for us all and nerfing druid to the ground is what needs to happen for PvP to be balanced for once. I mean, he said it himself, too.

[Bigsmerf]

this 20yo game bro, pls stay at ur lane and try to improve urself first....

There was no balance in vanilla pvp. As in pve. But admins are changing the game, trying to make memetic specs more relevant, and giving classes new abilities. I agree with the fact that vanilla should be changed a little, actualizing what is weak. The druid in pvp was not weak, but they make he stronger. This post is designed to draw attention to important moments of the game where I see an imbalance. If you have something to say specifically on some point, I will read it. And not "You play badly, that's why you want to change." Or maybe you are a druid yourself?

Devs might get absolutely wrong picture of balance in pvp.

Tell me your balance picture in pvp? What do you disagree with me about? Here are the points: 1. Is diminishing not necessary or what? And so on

Are you actually nuts? 30 second for shifting as druid?

What is wrong with you? Are you confusing the numbers?

give them a 20 second cooldown on change form.

This is first post.
Actually, here in the comments I already wrote that I agree even for 10 seconds. At least not all the time.

Berserk frees you 1 time out of fear, it is no immunity (learn to read the spell abilitys properly...)

it's good enough to remove the one fear of a warrior, priest or hunter. And they get CD for that.



Oh, damn, it gives more then Adrenaline Rush! 20 sec against 15

I know I'm also late as heck to this but I think it's worth bringing up that only the energy gain lasts 20 seconds, not the fear break. This isn't a claim. Just objective fact, and I'd rather not subject myself or other people to a suggestion or discussion about a class when someone doesn't even understand one of their arguing points properly.

[Paybacksz]

Unless they pop a lip or restoration potion. Also, are you Bulgarian?

If you play rogue a lot you have all time in the world to react with vanish, just have to stay behind.
Otherwise reflector/restorative help a lot.

SL warlock takes more time, other specs are free food for undead rogues, speaking like an undead rogue who plays ud rogue for 10 years across many servers

[Frantsel]

=1.= Diminishing is required for three abilities: sheep, warlock's fear and sap. This is obviously because they have no cooldown and they last too long. In other words, the droll can permanently keep you under control for hours.

There are simply no alternatives. I do not understand why such an obvious thing has not been introduced yet. Anyone who wants to argue with this just write how to kill a warlock who casts fear fear fear. And even if you are undead, he will throw a death coil at you and then do fear fear fear

=2.= Nerf druids. Everyone hates them because nothing can be done with them. Nothing can control them. They clear any Nova or slowdown with one click. And they are also immune to polymorph. As many times as they need.
They counter stealth with one click and have stealth. And also charge and stun and heal. IMBA. Why did you give them anti-fear? Did they not have enough anti-control? You should have nerfed them in pvp, not buffed them.
If you want to make them stronger in pve, but balanced in pvp, give them a 10 second cooldown on change form.

OR

Let them change forms as much as they want, but this does not free them from control.

=3.= Warriors are too weak in pvp. It's just a punching bag. If he doesn't attack first, doesn't make a charge, then it's just a piece of meat that dies from dots and stands in novas. Changing just one skill will make a big difference against heavy setups. Made the charge usable in combat. This is not a clear random mechanic. Will the warrior go into combat or not before using it? Do we need this unfair random?

OR

"Second Breath" for all warri as at least some sustain against control. It will not affect warriors in pvE. This will not affect warriors who drink Free Action Potion. Do you generally think it is fair that a warrior needs to drink FAP on CD to do anything in pvp? Even with this without healers he lives for 3 seconds. Charge-> Graveyard. It's warrior pvp cycle. And his damage is far from the damage of fury warriors in raids under all buffs and cooldowns. Some classes can simply oneshot from a distance.

=4.= Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd.
Need to change to 40 energy cost

OR

Backstab awards 2 combo points.
The dps will not be very great, because the dagger is in the hands, and it is much faster than the sword.

=5.= You gave wolves and hex to shamans and they became strong enough.
Abilities are the same as in Warcraft 3. But for some reason, mages do not have the abilities of sorcerers from Warcraft 3? Even the spellbingers from which Crusader recipe is obtained have the Slow skill. They are 57-58 lvl. But for some reason 60 lvl player mages have no slow skill. Why not make mages racial skills? Give Slow to high elves. Because their abilities are very weak in pvp. Trash. And invisibility to human. So they will have the racial ability to see the invisible and become invisible themselves for a short time. The racial skill will make some sense!

Or, on the contrary, give human mages a slow. And give the high elves invisibility. It will be symbolic, night elves have a meld, and high elves mages will have a short invis.

rofl let me guess, you play rogue?

Its one of the worst posts ive read here so far..

[Paybacksz]

=1.= Diminishing is required for three abilities: sheep, warlock's fear and sap. This is obviously because they have no cooldown and they last too long. In other words, the droll can permanently keep you under control for hours.

There are simply no alternatives. I do not understand why such an obvious thing has not been introduced yet. Anyone who wants to argue with this just write how to kill a warlock who casts fear fear fear. And even if you are undead, he will throw a death coil at you and then do fear fear fear

=2.= Nerf druids. Everyone hates them because nothing can be done with them. Nothing can control them. They clear any Nova or slowdown with one click. And they are also immune to polymorph. As many times as they need.
They counter stealth with one click and have stealth. And also charge and stun and heal. IMBA. Why did you give them anti-fear? Did they not have enough anti-control? You should have nerfed them in pvp, not buffed them.
If you want to make them stronger in pve, but balanced in pvp, give them a 10 second cooldown on change form.

OR

Let them change forms as much as they want, but this does not free them from control.

=3.= Warriors are too weak in pvp. It's just a punching bag. If he doesn't attack first, doesn't make a charge, then it's just a piece of meat that dies from dots and stands in novas. Changing just one skill will make a big difference against heavy setups. Made the charge usable in combat. This is not a clear random mechanic. Will the warrior go into combat or not before using it? Do we need this unfair random?

OR

"Second Breath" for all warri as at least some sustain against control. It will not affect warriors in pvE. This will not affect warriors who drink Free Action Potion. Do you generally think it is fair that a warrior needs to drink FAP on CD to do anything in pvp? Even with this without healers he lives for 3 seconds. Charge-> Graveyard. It's warrior pvp cycle. And his damage is far from the damage of fury warriors in raids under all buffs and cooldowns. Some classes can simply oneshot from a distance.

=4.= Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd.
Need to change to 40 energy cost

OR

Backstab awards 2 combo points.
The dps will not be very great, because the dagger is in the hands, and it is much faster than the sword.

=5.= You gave wolves and hex to shamans and they became strong enough.
Abilities are the same as in Warcraft 3. But for some reason, mages do not have the abilities of sorcerers from Warcraft 3? Even the spellbingers from which Crusader recipe is obtained have the Slow skill. They are 57-58 lvl. But for some reason 60 lvl player mages have no slow skill. Why not make mages racial skills? Give Slow to high elves. Because their abilities are very weak in pvp. Trash. And invisibility to human. So they will have the racial ability to see the invisible and become invisible themselves for a short time. The racial skill will make some sense!

Or, on the contrary, give human mages a slow. And give the high elves invisibility. It will be symbolic, night elves have a meld, and high elves mages will have a short invis.

rofl let me guess, you play rogue?

Its one of the worst posts ive read here so far..

he is playing mage

[Bigsmerf]

=1.= Diminishing is required for three abilities: sheep, warlock's fear and sap. This is obviously because they have no cooldown and they last too long. In other words, the droll can permanently keep you under control for hours.

There are simply no alternatives. I do not understand why such an obvious thing has not been introduced yet. Anyone who wants to argue with this just write how to kill a warlock who casts fear fear fear. And even if you are undead, he will throw a death coil at you and then do fear fear fear

=2.= Nerf druids. Everyone hates them because nothing can be done with them. Nothing can control them. They clear any Nova or slowdown with one click. And they are also immune to polymorph. As many times as they need.
They counter stealth with one click and have stealth. And also charge and stun and heal. IMBA. Why did you give them anti-fear? Did they not have enough anti-control? You should have nerfed them in pvp, not buffed them.
If you want to make them stronger in pve, but balanced in pvp, give them a 10 second cooldown on change form.

OR

Let them change forms as much as they want, but this does not free them from control.

=3.= Warriors are too weak in pvp. It's just a punching bag. If he doesn't attack first, doesn't make a charge, then it's just a piece of meat that dies from dots and stands in novas. Changing just one skill will make a big difference against heavy setups. Made the charge usable in combat. This is not a clear random mechanic. Will the warrior go into combat or not before using it? Do we need this unfair random?

OR

"Second Breath" for all warri as at least some sustain against control. It will not affect warriors in pvE. This will not affect warriors who drink Free Action Potion. Do you generally think it is fair that a warrior needs to drink FAP on CD to do anything in pvp? Even with this without healers he lives for 3 seconds. Charge-> Graveyard. It's warrior pvp cycle. And his damage is far from the damage of fury warriors in raids under all buffs and cooldowns. Some classes can simply oneshot from a distance.

=4.= Backstab is too expensive and gives 1 combo. This strike should be stronger because you have to hit the back, and it's weaker then one and a half sinister strike. 60 energy for 1 combo this is absurd.
Need to change to 40 energy cost

OR

Backstab awards 2 combo points.
The dps will not be very great, because the dagger is in the hands, and it is much faster than the sword.

=5.= You gave wolves and hex to shamans and they became strong enough.
Abilities are the same as in Warcraft 3. But for some reason, mages do not have the abilities of sorcerers from Warcraft 3? Even the spellbingers from which Crusader recipe is obtained have the Slow skill. They are 57-58 lvl. But for some reason 60 lvl player mages have no slow skill. Why not make mages racial skills? Give Slow to high elves. Because their abilities are very weak in pvp. Trash. And invisibility to human. So they will have the racial ability to see the invisible and become invisible themselves for a short time. The racial skill will make some sense!

Or, on the contrary, give human mages a slow. And give the high elves invisibility. It will be symbolic, night elves have a meld, and high elves mages will have a short invis.

rofl let me guess, you play rogue?

Its one of the worst posts ive read here so far..

he is playing mage

Actually, mage, rogue, AND warrior.

[Gantulga]

Baseline feral FF was a very dumb idea.

[Bigsmerf]

Baseline feral FF was a very dumb idea.

Debatable

[Gantulga]

Baseline feral FF was a very dumb idea.

Debatable

It's not debatable. It's nothing more than a very unnecessary PvP buff in a scenario where druid already has advantage.

[Bigsmerf]

Baseline feral FF was a very dumb idea.

Debatable

It's not debatable. It's nothing more than a very unnecessary PvP buff in a scenario where druid already has advantage.

FF is already baseline. Removing the talent for the feral version gave us more points to spend, just like reducing the amount of points you need to spend in thick hide and feral instinct.

I don't think the change is anything monumental in PvP, but I could be wrong. PvE, though? Pretty much the same, but it's still a positive buff.

[Gantulga]

Debatable

It's not debatable. It's nothing more than a very unnecessary PvP buff in a scenario where druid already has advantage.

FF is already baseline. Removing the talent for the feral version gave us more points to spend, just like reducing the amount of points you need to spend in thick hide and feral instinct.

I don't think the change is anything monumental in PvP, but I could be wrong. PvE, though? Pretty much the same, but it's still a positive buff.

It is actually a very big change for druid vs rogue matchup. The only chance you have against a druid as a rogue is when they shift out. With baseline feral FF however, they never need to leave bear regardless of the spec, while keeping you permanently in combat and unable to stealth. It's downright disgusting.

[Bigsmerf]

It's not debatable. It's nothing more than a very unnecessary PvP buff in a scenario where druid already has advantage.

FF is already baseline. Removing the talent for the feral version gave us more points to spend, just like reducing the amount of points you need to spend in thick hide and feral instinct.

I don't think the change is anything monumental in PvP, but I could be wrong. PvE, though? Pretty much the same, but it's still a positive buff.

It is actually a very big change for druid vs rogue matchup. The only chance you have against a druid as a rogue is when they shift out. With baseline feral FF however, they never need to leave bear regardless of the spec, while keeping you permanently in combat and unable to stealth. It's downright disgusting.

Well, I guess that does suck pretty bad. I'd suggest making the anti stealth effect not work in bear form to prevent this but people could also just use it in cat while they're running/opening from stealth and then pop bear form. I'd also argue that most people who would spec feral are going to take feral FF anyways, and other specs won't even be in cat or bear, but there's probably flaws in all that too.

[Ataika]

ff in beast form is indeed a cringe buff that broke all druid-vs-rogue matchup fun

[Akos1896]

PVE-wise I like that druids can range-pull without shifting out of bear and losing rage. FF might be skippable though as long as bears keep having an animal form range pull.

[Gantulga]

PVE-wise I like that druids can range-pull without shifting out of bear and losing rage. FF might be skippable though as long as bears keep having an animal form range pull.

It was perfectly fine as a feral talent. It's a 1 pointer and other druid talents have been trimmed anyway.

[Ninjerk]

He got an interesting point though. I'm a noob regarding druids so can't propose sound changes, but:
Is it true that constant shapeshifting makes druid OP in PVP and if yes, would a CD on shapeshift make them balanced? If no, what is needed (in your opinion) for better balance?

And for style. A game's forum will never be a gentleman's club but please keep at least a minimal respect towards the others.

I'm no expert at the game, but it was my understanding that druids constantly shape-shifting was incredibly mana-intensive. I was under the impression that forcing druids to shift often was a key part of the strategy to defeating druids--either to run their mana down so their opponent could run them down in a low-mana state and finish them off or to pressure them while reserving critical cooldowns to burst them in caster form.

[Calli]

Warrior shield block should be able to block spells. If the warrior is rooted at least he could use his shield to mitigate the damage and not put on the slaughter.

[Zahnfee]

i suggest that all classes become naked autohitting warriors with a stick as soon as pvp is happening that way we can ensure that every fight is fair

[Bigsmerf]

i suggest that all classes become naked autohitting warriors with a stick as soon as pvp is happening that way we can ensure that every fight is fair

aCkShUALlY, feral druid would still be the most iMbA class because of their 30% move speed and bear form's MASSIVE armor. Checkmate PvE andy.

[Geojak]

strognly agree on your poitns about sheep, fear, sap. and also about druids.
no way should sheep or sap last longer than 10 seconds ever.

[Jkldsngkljsng]

=1.= Diminishing is required for three abilities: sheep, warlock's fear and sap. This is obviously because they have no cooldown and they last too long. In other words, the droll can permanently keep you under control for hours.

This is already in the game.
Alarming that you don't know this.

[Gantulga]

Not only there are diminishing returns but also heartbeat. Meaning sap can randomly end at any moment and it cannot just be reapplied like polymorph.
Imagine complaining about sap of all things.

[Ataika]

i have never seen sap randomply ends within first 5 seconds
its always a long duration

yes it might break at 10 seconds but thats a lot for a control that does not have trinket countermeasures

[Gantulga]

i have never seen sap randomply ends within first 5 seconds
its always a long duration

yes it might break at 10 seconds but thats a lot for a control that does not have trinket countermeasures

It can only be used out of stealth and eats most of your energy bar, you need 6-8 seconds to just recover the energy you spent on it. It cannot just be reapplied at will like polymorph. It also shares DR with gouge.