PvP balance suggestions

[Heine]

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX ALTERAC VALLEY.

All it would take is for the backdoors to be removed or balanced. It's way too easy to get into Horde base. NOT TO MENTION all the of the elite NPC's near Aid Station. LIKE WHY are there so many NPC's guarding aid station, BUT THERE ARE NONE guarding relief hut besides guards. This is ridiculous. Alliance win everygame. FIX THIS SHIT YOU'RE LOSING PLAYERS BECAUSE NOBODY WANTS TO PVP IN AV

Somehow you forgot to mention how horde can easily climb on top of the aid station, making them extremely difficult to reach by melee, and making all the DB guards bug out. Or the very potent backdoor into DB. Or the countless wallclimbing exploits that make DB undefendable if attacked by a halfway competent party. Or the path to jump directly on top of DB north bunker. Or the high ground choke north from Icewing Bunker


The reason why Horde always loses AV isn't because of the map. it's because of Horde players. You start each battle with 30 players already accepting defeat and not actually trying to win

You can completely avoid horde archers when backdoor horde base
You will be shot by alliance archers when u backdoor alliance base

Horde base is like 2 patrolling packs + guards at flag.
Alliance base is fullof elite, its literally imposible to gank n vanish there cause you will be SWARMED.

[Azzag]

New player on turtle, was playing my shaman and getting fun in BGs while casual leveling.
Got to level 51 and tried AV.
It's so bad from horde side there is no word to describe it.

Why do horde even visit this BG?

[Kairion]

New player on turtle, was playing my shaman and getting fun in BGs while casual leveling.
Got to level 51 and tried AV.
It's so bad from horde side there is no word to describe it.

Why do horde even visit this BG?

Herbing inside the BG is pretty profitable - thats about it

[Thraxexus]

use faps and reflectors ez

[Rmxx]

Deny Alterac Valley Backdoors or make Battlegrounds Cross-faction.

The server is already Super-Custom as it is, atleast that would help with some of the Balancing and stop people from Quitting the server once they reach "endgame".

[Bruegel]

There are pvp DR's for fear, sheep & sap. You can just reset them if you have another form of CC. This is the post-writer failing to understand basic mechanics.

Druids should be locked to form for 20 seconds? Don't even know what to say; it fails to understand anything about what makes druid a functional class. By this token we should lock warrior stances to every 20seconds.

The druid adrenaline rush length will likely (and should be) be reduced once they add fixes to avoid the wolfshead helm requirement. The same ability does not make you immune to fear but rather cleanses fear.

Reading the tooltips and asking someone who understand foundation mechanics would do the writer wonders & most definitely help them in pvp.

If this post is about equality between 1v1's then the Paladin dev should to be put on trial.

I've been on this server for some time now but this is the first forum post to make me login here. May I never have to again.

[Bloodline1x9]

By this token we should lock warrior stances to every 20seconds.

When switching stances, the warrior does not reset control. Would you be okay with being able to shape-shift as much as you want, but only without getting out of control? Plus mage can turn a druid into a sheep. Well, if anything, mages available to poly beasts so what problem?
And in Warcraft 3 sorceresses could turn bear druids into sheep. So the ban here is not according to the canon.

Is that okay with you?

[Bloodline1x9]

[I thought this topic had been lost for a long time.]

But no. So I updated it. Look at the 1st post.
1. I reduced my requirements.
2. And added alternative options.
Just so your asses don't burn so much

[Kairion]

Fear and poly DO STILL have diminishing returns. No need to ask for that to be implemented...

Second wind would of course impact pve content. Why shouldnt a passive heal have impacts in pve? I'm happy to discuss the bloodcraze talent and buffing it to give that sort of sustain. But baseline healing is something warrior should not be able to do. And even if he is weak without usage of potions, he still CAN use them. He doesnt need to be even more dangerous when using one.

Backstab is still more energy efficient damage than sinister and seal fate is an option. If you want more combopoints you play sinister or hemo. If you wanna see huge crits on casters pick backstab.

For the druid i give you a counteroffer since the proposed nerf is still too polarizing.
Only transforming INTO an animal removes slows and roots. This means its a commitment. Namely it means you can not remove slows at the same time as starting to heal. Slowing you down ever so slightly.

[Charx]

About the backstab idea i do think you have a point there.
It should give a extra combo point or cost less energie. not sure how much less energie though.
Currently in PVP its almost imposible to backstabe relaibly.

Also you said backstab needed both.
But i think trough the discussion made here you now see that either one of them might be enough. Thats how disscusions works it has a chance too chance youre perspective on things :)

[Bloodline1x9]

Second wind would of course impact pve content.

That one percent of situations when a warrior in pvE will get a little healing for stun or immobilize control over him is not worth paying attention to. This does not affect his damage. Point.

And even if he is weak without usage of potions, he still CAN use them. He doesnt need to be even more dangerous when using one.

If he drank the FAP potion then he becomes immune to control, so the ability won't work on him and won't heal him. These are mutually exclusive mechanisms.

But baseline healing is something warrior should not be able to do.

Healing doesn't work on slow or fear or anything other than stun / immobilize. And it is not significant and not instantaneous. In group battles, it will not affect as much as you think. As a warrior lived under focus for three seconds, so it will remain.
This is rather a small bonus. It will have a more significant effect on duels where the warrior is an absolute piece of sh1t. Drinking FAP in duels is not fair.

Also you said backstab needed both.
But i think trough the discussion made here you now see that either one of them might be enough. Thats how disscusions works it has a chance too chance youre perspective on things :)

Yeah, the backstab discussion about pvE changed my mind. But...
I knew from the very beginning that with two buffs, the backstab would be stronger than the front ability, but that's what I wanted. Compared to Mutilate, which appeared in TBC, it is much stronger than the double backstab buff, because there is +50% dmg to poisoned target. But mutilate was not very popular. Because backstabbing is much more difficult than just spamming a single button.

I knew that with the original offer, the backstab would become stronger in pve on bosses. But not in all pvE.
This would unload the loot system. Rogues would be more likely to choose their default weapon.
But I was afraid that the rogues would start going to clean the trash in the combat sword spec and change to the second spec of talents on every boss. Or daggers will simply become stronger than any weapon in pve.
It will not be a balance. Players should have an equal choice of what to choose.

But one of the backstab buffs is absolutely necessary. The player must choose daggers consciously as an effective weapon, not "Yes, I create problems for myself by having to hit the back and it does not buff me in any way against just strikes to the face, but I want to be different."

[Kairion]

My bad on the second wind, google returned passive health regen as what this talent does - Since late Mop thats what it does, didn't have present it being a stun reliant talent in older versions.

Ye stun based healing i could see as a thing, probably not too problematic.

[Bloodline1x9]

A year ago I created this topic in which I asked to nerf the druids. Then people did not support me. And now I often see how people write "Druid is broken in PvP".
I think this topic is ahead of its time. And only now are players beginning to realize that druids need Nerf.

[Akos1896]

You made some good points but not mentioning pala in the original post was indeed a mistake.
For the responses, I don't suggest overreacting. Forum culture (maybe 'culture') can be a bit toxic, specially regarding changes. It's a Vanilla+ server, and people tend to choose this over things like retail to have more or less the original experience.

For the changes:
* I think putting a CD to shapeshift is a prime idea. Doesn't hurt PVE since a druid has to adhere to one role there most of the time, but works as a slight nerf in PVP. I'd also consider lowering bear damage output a bit and in exchange buffing the threat modifier of some of their abilities so they can still dish out the equal amount of threat in PVE.
* Shamans were not mentioned. Guys, don't bite my head off, I agree that baseline shaman power level has to be raised but the class has two abilities which are very toxic for PVP and need a revamp: purge and frost shock. Purge should have a CD and frost shock should be less efficient (lower effect duration, lower speed reduction or just lower base damage).
* Palas are in a weird position because Blizzard slacking off when they should have created holy resistence creates a problem here. I'd change the strikes added by TWOW to give mostly physical damage, not holy and check if it is enough. It should stop PVP palas being OnePunchMan roleplayers, though.
* For fear... It is possible to raise the possibility of any damage breaking fear, making warlocks jankier. It is a risky change though, can easily turn PVP God warlocks into trash. If this change is done, it has to be tested very carefully.
* Mages - would nerf movement impairment a bit, making it easier to break out of it.
* Rogues - their long stun is not actually a stun, it's a combination of mechanics which kinda feel like an exploit. I'd revamp those mechanics, preventing nude rogues killing T3 plate users with perma-locking them out of the game.

[Ataika]

* Shamans were not mentioned. Guys, don't bite my head off, I agree that baseline shaman power level has to be raised but the class has two abilities which are very toxic for PVP and need a revamp: purge and frost shock. Purge should have a CD and frost shock should be less efficient (lower effect duration, lower speed reduction or just lower base damage).

I love how people attempt to nerf the class and spec that:
- has zero mobility in combat
- is very vulnerable to counterspell/spell lock (you get silience and you locked for 90% of your spells for 8 seconds)
- is very vulnerable for curse of tongues (one cheap curse negates all your casts)
- is very mana hungry
- has zero pushback protection for its main damaging spells unless got hit in the face
- has zero protection against interrupts and has zero options to use another school of magic
- has zero CC spells
- hast shortest distance instant spells in the game (20 yards vs 26 normal ones)

I understand that freecasting ele shaman does insane damage, but its your problem that you allow shaman to freecast, its not class balance problem.

[Nitaya]

* Shamans were not mentioned. Guys, don't bite my head off, I agree that baseline shaman power level has to be raised but the class has two abilities which are very toxic for PVP and need a revamp: purge and frost shock. Purge should have a CD and frost shock should be less efficient (lower effect duration, lower speed reduction or just lower base damage).

I love how people attempt to nerf the class and spec that:
- has zero mobility in combat
- is very vulnerable to counterspell/spell lock (you get silience and you locked for 90% of your spells for 8 seconds)
- is very vulnerable for curse of tongues (one cheap curse negates all your casts)
- is very mana hungry
- has zero pushback protection for its main damaging spells unless got hit in the face
- has zero protection against interrupts and has zero options to use another school of magic
- has zero CC spells
- hast shortest distance instant spells in the game (20 yards vs 26 normal ones)

I understand that freecasting ele shaman does insane damage, but its your problem that you allow shaman to freecast, its not class balance problem.

I love it when people are unable to read properly.
That guy mentioned that -> BASELINE SHAMAN POWER LEVEL HAS TO BE RAISED.
But he mentioned that 2 skills seem a bit over the top, Frost shock and purge. (I don't even agree with the frost shock part) and then you went apeshit like he said that "nerf shaman to the ground". What has not happened

Purge is OP? Indeed (better than dispel), try to play as healer druid or healer priest when shamans are around. No hot, no shield will stick for more than 1-2 seconds. Mage lvl 31 points talent can be purged and almost everything. In PvP all of your buffs will be gone in the 1st few seconds.
Vanilla has not really dispel resistance. (Hence they made in later expansions certain self buffs undispellable)

[Akos1896]

* Shamans were not mentioned. Guys, don't bite my head off, I agree that baseline shaman power level has to be raised but the class has two abilities which are very toxic for PVP and need a revamp: purge and frost shock. Purge should have a CD and frost shock should be less efficient (lower effect duration, lower speed reduction or just lower base damage).

I love how people attempt to nerf the class and spec that:
- has zero mobility in combat
- is very vulnerable to counterspell/spell lock (you get silience and you locked for 90% of your spells for 8 seconds)
- is very vulnerable for curse of tongues (one cheap curse negates all your casts)
- is very mana hungry
- has zero pushback protection for its main damaging spells unless got hit in the face
- has zero protection against interrupts and has zero options to use another school of magic
- has zero CC spells
- hast shortest distance instant spells in the game (20 yards vs 26 normal ones)

I understand that freecasting ele shaman does insane damage, but its your problem that you allow shaman to freecast, its not class balance problem.

Some of those are very good points but some of those are half truths.
- has zero mobility in combat -> has many ways to slow down the opponent instead (earthbind, frost shock) + ghost wolf is janky but exists
- is very vulnerable to counterspell/spell lock (you get silience and you locked for 90% of your spells for 8 seconds) -> true, most of the shaman damage is nature school, but there is a reason they have a 5/6 sec CD interrupt and a grounding totem the same time. If curse of tongues really hits, it's shock + nature's swiftness-lb + weapon enhancement and zugzug time until we find a friendly druid/mage ally
- is very mana hungry -> true but lengthy mana management is rather a PVE issue. PVP usually allows you to be bursty
- has zero protection against interrupts and has zero options to use another school of magic -> grounding totem is there when you expect an interrupt; other schools are a problem, yeah. Flame shock, frost shock (shared CD) and thats all.
- has zero CC spells -> (would love a better version of the current hex made baseline) - yeah, CC is not a shaman forté
- hast shortest distance instant spells in the game (20 yards vs 26 normal ones) -> it's usually okay. you have a 20y gap to close in before a surprise chl/lb followed by nature swiftness+lb + shock hits you. It's usually enough for the win

Don't get me wrong, shaman is my fav. But when it comes to PVP balance, all toxic ability has to be called out, even if it's a shaman one. They could have buffs at other aspects, but purge in its current form is just too oppressive for the meta.

[Ataika]

Purge is OP? Indeed (better than dispel)

Damn boy you are the sunny one.

- has zero mobility in combat -> has many ways to slow down the opponent instead (earthbind, frost shock) + ghost wolf is janky but exists

Once slowed you have zero chances to escape, only to stay your ground and win or die there.
Thats the very meaning of class mobility, not the fact you have spells to slow others.

- has zero protection against interrupts and has zero options to use another school of magic -> grounding totem is there when you expect an interrupt;

Grounding totem does not work againts interrupts, only against spell locks.

it's usually okay

Thats your personal opinion, and it doesnt change the fact that shaman has the shorest instant casts range among all caster classes.

[Akos1896]

Purge is OP? Indeed (better than dispel)

Damn boy you are the sunny one.

- has zero mobility in combat -> has many ways to slow down the opponent instead (earthbind, frost shock) + ghost wolf is janky but exists

Once slowed you have zero chances to escape, only to stay your ground and win or die there.
Thats the very meaning of class mobility, not the fact you have spells to slow others.

- has zero protection against interrupts and has zero options to use another school of magic -> grounding totem is there when you expect an interrupt;

Grounding totem does not work againts interrupts, only against spell locks.

it's usually okay

Thats your personal opinion, and it doesnt change the fact that shaman has the shorest instant casts range among all caster classes.

Okay. So how do these shortcomings mean that purge is not broken?
For grounding, it should be able to redirect counterspells since they are spells. It wouldn't redirect melee abilities which interrupt you but spells, it does. Here, the discussion part:
https://www.wowhead.com/classic/spell=8 ... m#comments

[Nitaya]

Purge is OP? Indeed (better than dispel)

Damn boy you are the sunny one.

Shamans play aggressively, they will be where the action is and therefore can purge immediately.
Also in PvP somehow I see a lot more Shamans than priests. So a lot more purging happening than dispelling. (When I play healer druid It's rare that I got dispelled but purged quite frequently.)

In plain comparison dispel is better (as it affects friendly) but in the action, purge is more dominating.

[Bloodline1x9]

* Shamans were not mentioned. Guys, don't bite my head off, I agree that baseline shaman power level has to be raised but the class has two abilities which are very toxic for PVP and need a revamp: purge and frost shock. Purge should have a CD and frost shock should be less efficient (lower effect duration, lower speed reduction or just lower base damage).

I also think Purge two buffs in one click without cooldown is pretty strong. On the other hand, the pace of play in classics is faster than in TBC and beyond.

I didn't list all the classes on purpose. Because it leads to discussions about not so important changes and distracts from extremely important ones. The most important for me: diminishing, druid nerf in pvp, warrior buff in pvp.
The fourth point is the reformation of the rogues so that they beat in the back, and not mindlessly spam Hemo.
The fifth is a creative proposal.

* Palas are in a weird position because Blizzard slacking off when they should have created holy resistence creates a problem here. I'd change the strikes added by TWOW to give mostly physical damage, not holy and check if it is enough. It should stop PVP palas being OnePunchMan roleplayers, though.

It's hard for me to gauge the strength of paladins since two of my characters are Alliance. And the rogue, who for the Horde did not feel the paladin as a super strong class, because I hunt more vulnerable targets.

It seems to me like a melee class the paladin it's a class that can be stuned, feared, poly, drain mana, purge and even slow down (although not permanently)...well he has vulnerabilities. He just looks too strong compared to the warrior.
I heard he was given -50% damage in bubble. Maybe he is still too strong? I do not know. But everything I listed does not work for the druid (exept stun). And the bear is very fat and kills very quickly. And you can't run away from him. That worries me more than the paladin.

[Ataika]

So how do these shortcomings mean that purge is not broken?

Yes its not boken while we have purge's oldest brother named Dispell Magic and a twin brother named Cleanse.

Purge is OP? Indeed (better than dispel)

Damn boy you are the sunny one.

Shamans play aggressively, they will be where the action is and therefore can purge immediately.
Also in PvP somehow I see a lot more Shamans than priests. So a lot more purging happening than dispelling. (When I play healer druid It's rare that I got dispelled but purged quite frequently.)

In plain comparison dispel is better (as it affects friendly) but in the action, purge is more dominating.

Yes i got it sunny boy, the spell that removes 2 helpful buffs is much stronger than a spell that removes 2 helpful AND 2 harmful from friends providing magic cc removal.
Get lost.

[Akos1896]

* Shamans were not mentioned. Guys, don't bite my head off, I agree that baseline shaman power level has to be raised but the class has two abilities which are very toxic for PVP and need a revamp: purge and frost shock. Purge should have a CD and frost shock should be less efficient (lower effect duration, lower speed reduction or just lower base damage).

I also think Purge two buffs in one click without cooldown is pretty strong. On the other hand, the pace of play in classics is faster than in TBC and beyond.

I didn't list all the classes on purpose. Because it leads to discussions about not so important changes and distracts from extremely important ones. The most important for me: diminishing, druid nerf in pvp, warrior buff in pvp.
The fourth point is the reformation of the rogues so that they beat in the back, and not mindlessly spam Hemo.
The fifth is a creative proposal.

* Palas are in a weird position because Blizzard slacking off when they should have created holy resistence creates a problem here. I'd change the strikes added by TWOW to give mostly physical damage, not holy and check if it is enough. It should stop PVP palas being OnePunchMan roleplayers, though.

It's hard for me to gauge the strength of paladins since two of my characters are Alliance. And the rogue, who for the Horde did not feel the paladin as a super strong class, because I hunt more vulnerable targets.

It seems to me like a melee class the paladin it's a class that can be stuned, feared, poly, drain mana, purge and even slow down (although not permanently)...well he has vulnerabilities. He just looks too strong compared to the warrior.
I heard he was given -50% damage in bubble. Maybe he is still too strong? I do not know. But everything I listed does not work for the druid (exept stun). And the bear is very fat and kills very quickly. And you can't run away from him. That worries me more than the paladin.

For pala please take my word for it. Imagine a kinda spammable ability ignoring armor while they just survive in plate+bubble and heal themselves up if needed.
I agree that druids are S tier in PVP but they are not above pala.
If interested, found this video for general overview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wgWFPWB6N0&t=9s

[Mackylol]

Bla bla bla.

Its great that you have a hobby that you enjoy and that you have confidence in yourself but .. you are simply not good at the game if you cant kill a druid as any of the classes that you posted reliably.

Dullards will always have problems with druids because of the mobility but honestly, every class has a chance even though it is significantly harder for a warrior and a rogue. Especially if you dont use any tricks (ie engineering / trinkets / consumes).

It is a single fear break on a 6 minute cooldown, not a 20 second immunity, it breaks fear once when you use it.

--

The game was balanced around teamplay, as others have stated. Combine rocks, paper and scissors to get a team that can deal with the mechanics that you have an issue with. A warrior combined with a healer is and always will be extremely strong.

You should try retail, the classes are streamlined for solo-play there -- but Im thinking you will probably have problems there too.

[Ataika]

Bla bla bla.

Its great that you have a hobby that you enjoy and that you have confidence in yourself but .. you are simply not good at the game if you cant kill a druid as any of the classes that you posted reliably.

Dullards will always have problems with druids because of the mobility but honestly, every class has a chance even though it is significantly harder for a warrior and a rogue. Especially if you dont use any tricks (ie engineering / trinkets / consumes).

--

The game was balanced around teamplay, as others have stated. Combine rocks, paper and scissors to get a team that can deal with the mechanics that you have an issue with. A warrior combined with a healer is and always will be extremely strong.

You should try retail, the classes are streamlined for solo-play there -- but Im thinking you will probably have problems there too.

Based

[Nitaya]

So how do these shortcomings mean that purge is not broken?

Yes its not boken while we have purge's oldest brother named Dispell Magic and all-in-ine Cleanse.

Damn boy you are the sunny one.

Shamans play aggressively, they will be where the action is and therefore can purge immediately.
Also in PvP somehow I see a lot more Shamans than priests. So a lot more purging happening than dispelling. (When I play healer druid It's rare that I got dispelled but purged quite frequently.)

In plain comparison dispel is better (as it affects friendly) but in the action, purge is more dominating.

Yes i got it sunny boy, the spell that removes 2 helpful buffs is much stronger than a spell that removes 2 helpful AND 2 harmful from friends providing magic cc removal.
Get lost.

I'm glad you act like you don't understand.
You cannot compare the abilities in a vacuum, you have to see the environment as well.

But tell me how purge is not OP that can remove all of your buffs, and render certain healers usability by a great degree (Without saying "BuT dIsPeL Is BetTeR)
Oh yeah who would have expected you are playing a shaman.

But hey sunny boy, I don't expect anything meaningful here from you. Who cannot even read the description of a trinket and pays 2k gold for it.

[Bloodline1x9]

Bla bla bla

When 5 people try to kill a fat bear and he survive too a long time (And all the others would die in 2 seconds with such a focus) or when he constantly reshifts and escape from them, and they cannot catch him, then this is not a balance.

This class in vanilla was more or less balanced because its abilities compensated for its low damage.

Admins gave them damage and break the balance.

Have you ever wondered why a warrior doesn't remove control when he switches stance? Or why doesn't he have self-healing or root? And he even has a Stun only in Def Spec for talent. Or how one button (Faerie Fire) makes a rogue useless, prohibiting the use Stealth.

Are you a druid? Enough crying. They gave you damage like warriors and rogues, what else do you lack? Play in one form as a warrior or a rogue. You choose a bear or a cat and do not reshift more often than once every 10 seconds. And it's like a pvp trinket every 10 seconds...

[Bigsmerf]

Bla bla bla

When 5 people try to kill a fat bear and he survive too a long time (And all the others would die in 2 seconds with such a focus) or when he constantly reshifts and runs away from them, and they cannot catch him, then this is not a balance.

This class in vanilla was more or less balanced because its abilities compensated for its low damage.

Admins gave them damage and break the balance.

Have you ever wondered why a warrior doesn't remove control when he switches stance? Or why doesn't he have self-healing or root? And he even has a Stun only in Def Spec for talent. Or how one button makes a rogue useless, prohibiting the use of Stealth.

Are you a druid? Enough crying. They gave you damages like warriors and rogues, what else do you lack? Play in one form as a warrior or a rogue. You choose a bear or a cat and do not reshift more often than once every 10 seconds. And it's like a pvp trinket every 10 seconds...

Shifting constantly is integral to feral gameplay in PvE. Yes. More than once every ten seconds. I'm not sure how to speak against whatever else you're saying, or if I even WANT to open that can of worms, but giving feral a 10 second shifting CD is an objectively stupid idea.

[Bloodline1x9]

Shifting constantly is integral to feral gameplay in PvE.

Oh RLY? Who cares. Just play as a cat if you're a dps, or as a bear if you're a tank.

Yes. More than once every ten seconds. I'm not sure how to speak against whatever else you're saying, or if I even WANT to open that can of worms, but giving feral a 10 second shifting CD is an objectively stupid idea.

Read the second part "OR"

Then we just remove the dispel control effect?

If vanish had no cooldown, then I could say that vanish spam is necessary for the rogue's pve rotation.

[Ataika]

So how do these shortcomings mean that purge is not broken?

Yes its not boken while we have purge's oldest brother named Dispell Magic and all-in-ine Cleanse.

Shamans play aggressively, they will be where the action is and therefore can purge immediately.
Also in PvP somehow I see a lot more Shamans than priests. So a lot more purging happening than dispelling. (When I play healer druid It's rare that I got dispelled but purged quite frequently.)

In plain comparison dispel is better (as it affects friendly) but in the action, purge is more dominating.

Yes i got it sunny boy, the spell that removes 2 helpful buffs is much stronger than a spell that removes 2 helpful AND 2 harmful from friends providing magic cc removal.
Get lost.

I'm glad you act like you don't understand.
You cannot compare the abilities in a vacuum, you have to see the environment as well.

But tell me how purge is not OP that can remove all of your buffs, and render certain healers usability by a great degree (Without saying "BuT dIsPeL Is BetTeR)
Oh yeah who would have expected you are playing a shaman.

But hey sunny boy, I don't expect anything meaningful here from you. Who cannot even read the description of a trinket and pays 2k gold for it.

One again sunny boy, waiting for explaination why shaman purge is op meanwhile priest dispell (ability that does exactly the same but removes negative effects in additional) is not op.
And no iam not playing shaman, iam maining warlock.

Difference is i have enough iq to not request other class nerf just because i have problems to fight against.
Unlike you.

[Bigsmerf]

Shifting constantly is integral to feral gameplay in PvE.

Oh RLY? Who cares. Just play as a cat if you're a dps, or as a bear if you're a tank.

Yes. More than once every ten seconds. I'm not sure how to speak against whatever else you're saying, or if I even WANT to open that can of worms, but giving feral a 10 second shifting CD is an objectively stupid idea.

Read the second part "OR"

Then we just remove the dispel control effect?

If vanish had no cooldown, then I could say that vanish spam is necessary for the rogue's pve rotation.

First off, I mean shifting out of, and then back into cat form to regenerate energy through furor. You've really never heard of powershifting before? Fuck- I'm starting to question whether or not I should be having this conversation.

I guess you could remove the dispel, buuut... That would be a pretty big nerf.

Why the fuck is a hypothetical relevant to the actual state of the game? Also, vanish requires a reagent anyways...

[Bloodline1x9]

First off, I mean shifting out of, and then back into cat form to regenerate energy through furor. You've really never heard of powershifting before?

I'm ashamed to play a class like feral druid. He is so broken.

Fuck- I'm starting to question whether or not I should be having this conversation.

And why you? We are not discussing pvE. Feral used to be weaker in pvE. Feral become more stronger here on Turtle, what's not to like?

Now we are talking about how to nerf druid in pvp because he is broken. The fact that it will slightly affect pvE is not important, because he was weak before. What you write is similar to overabuse.
In any case, the change in pvE should take place from a new point of rebalance, because changes in PvP are necessary.

I guess you could remove the dispel, buuut... That would be a pretty big nerf.

If this change does not affect pvE, then this discussion can be concluded. Yes, he will be standing in Frost Nova. So what? The warrior stands too. During this time, the druid will be able to change form and cast spells or heal. Currently, the mage has no chance against the druid because there is nothing to stop that imba.

Why the fuck is a hypothetical relevant to the actual state of the game?

Because if a druid is a class that SHOULD be weaker than everyone else, but he knows how to change forms and become everyone else (weaker copy)

If druid is strengthened to the level of other classes in terms of dps, then his advantage is taken away. If he is given Berserk, then for example the priest does not know what to do with him.

You can't be a rogue and a warrior and a mage and a healer at the same time! And without flaws.
Therefore, the path is either each druid chooses in which form he plays, or it is a form change nerf.
This is by the way for Warcraft 3!
There, reshifting required time, but did not give it!

Also, vanish requires a reagent anyways...

A little bit of copper doesn't matter much. I generally said about vanish only as an example of the situation.
But the rogues don't say "Make us Vanish without CD because we need to use garrote or ambush in the PvE rotation"
Because it is absurd. Druids will also do without reshifting in pvE. Once every 10 seconds is more than enough.

[Ataika]

Currently, the mage has no chance against the druid because there is nothing to stop that imba.

Alliance warlocks have no chance against horde undead rogues.
Please nerf undeads and nerf rogues.

Yeah, thats not how it works

[Gantulga]

Currently, the mage has no chance against the druid because there is nothing to stop that imba.

Alliance warlocks have no chance against horde undead rogues.

Uh what. Yes they do lol. Rogue has it exceedingly hard against a geared SL warlock.

Druid are natural mage killers if they're given time. Here druid is gigabuffed so mages get slapped.

[Bigsmerf]

First off, I mean shifting out of, and then back into cat form to regenerate energy through furor. You've really never heard of powershifting before?

I'm ashamed to play a class like feral druid. He is so broken.

Fuck- I'm starting to question whether or not I should be having this conversation.

And why you? We are not discussing pvE. Feral used to be weaker in pvE. Feral become more stronger here on Turtle, what's not to like?

Now we are talking about how to nerf druid in pvp because he is broken. The fact that it will slightly affect pvE is not important, because he was weak before. What you write is similar to overabuse.
In any case, the change in pvE should take place from a new point of rebalance, because changes in PvP are necessary.

I guess you could remove the dispel, buuut... That would be a pretty big nerf.

If this change does not affect pvE, then this discussion can be concluded. Yes, he will be standing in Frost Nova. So what? The warrior stands too. During this time, the druid will be able to change form and cast spells or heal. Currently, the mage has no chance against the druid because there is nothing to stop that imba.

Why the fuck is a hypothetical relevant to the actual state of the game?

Because if a druid is a class that SHOULD be weaker than everyone else, but he knows how to change forms and become everyone else (weaker copy)

If druid is strengthened to the level of other classes in terms of dps, then his advantage is taken away. If he is given Berserk, then for example the priest does not know what to do with him.

You can't be a rogue and a warrior and a mage and a healer at the same time! And without flaws.
Therefore, the path is either each druid chooses in which form he plays, or it is a form change nerf.
This is by the way for Warcraft 3!
There, reshifting required time, but did not give it!

Also, vanish requires a reagent anyways...

A little bit of copper doesn't matter much. I generally said about vanish only as an example of the situation.
But the rogues don't say "Make us Vanish without CD because we need to use garrote or ambush in the PvE rotation"
Because it is absurd. Druids will also do without reshifting in pvE. Once every 10 seconds is more than enough.

My dude thinks the complete crippling of powershifting's only going to "slightly" affect PvE. Lol. Lmao even.

Okay, let's try this again. In detail this time. The furor talent, combined with the wolfshead helm enchant make shifting into cat form give you 40 energy for furor, and 20 with wolfshead. That's 60 energy. When you shift out of cat form and then back into it with zero energy after you've spent it in form means you have 60 free(ish if you don't count mana) energy now. Timing it correctly makes it so when you shift, you also shift around the same time you'd get an energy tick, so you'd effectively have 80 energy, which is a lot! Use of this method makes playing feral much more viable in PvE and is a huge dps increase, making it pretty dang integral. Or maybe it isn't, and I have no idea what I'm talking about, right? Not like I have any experience with all of this hands on and have raided whilst using such a rotation. (Totally not putting out mediocre DPS even with all this in play either.)

Unfunny sarcasm aside-- in short, I know the impact of this change first hand from a PvE perspective. You don't. Learn that, please. If you want to change something for one of the game's aspects, then clearly there's going to be issues in another if you don't keep them in mind. This is one of those things, and it's obvious how little research you've done.