Undead Paladins, Dwarf Shamans

[Redmagejoe]

why is your imagination enough here when you wanted sources elsewhere

I am going to interpret this response as you don't contest Tauren in-game evidence, but find Trolls a sticking point. That's fair. I'm still waiting for you to provide any sort of evidence to your claims, including the ones you just made which go blatantly in the face of in-game evidence, a la Taurens. If you're just spinning your head-canon, at least say so, but please don't assert authority over claims with no sources provided, or discount more reliable sources, at least those more reliable than some stranger on the internet named Ashstache.

I'm not really sure why you feel that others who are providing you with ample information and citations have some sort of burden of proof upon them to disprove your views, yet you are either unwilling or unable to back up your views. There is ample evidence and source material for Orc Shamans, Tauren Shamans, and there is certainly precedent for Troll Shamans though this is a less concrete point to make. I will not die on a hill for Troll Shamans. You, on the other hand, claim that Wildhammer Dwarves are canonically Shamans with... no sources, no evidence, no precedent, merely your word. You can understand why we are where we are in this discussion.

[Ibux]

Dwarf can't be shaman because of nature magic . Shamans use spirits and elemental magic. It's different from mage or priest magic using

bro has never heard of Wildhammer dwarves

what about them? that picture looks like it's not from vanilla wow

[Mac]

Undead paladins? Yes. Dwarf shamen? Yes.

“Make it so.” - Picard from the Star Trek

[Mac]

And as far as the evidence for Wildhammer shamen goes, page 143 in the Alliance Player’s Guide says they follow a shamanistic path (and not the Holy Light like their Ironforge counterparts). The RPG books were only deemed non-canonical post-TBC because they didn’t fit TBC and beyond lore, but this is a Vanilla lore server so the RPG books are a valid source of lore. There are also their stormhammers, which are very shamanistic. The argument definitely can be made for them.

[Imonobor]

I really don't understand why people whine about the gameplay-side of giving both factions all classes. We already have cross-faction grouping, so nothing PvE-related will change.
About the PvP side, it can only help to balance things if both factions have the same classes, or have you forgotten the pages of whining about paladins being too OP in PvP?

If it's such a problem, implement it only on the PvE server, and keep the PvP server as-is.

Lorewise, while I do agree that there are holes in the lore about Wildhammer shamans and Forsaken paladins, it's nothing that can't be worked around if the Turtle WoW devs really wanted to implement it. Even reskinning the classes and their abilities as Thane and Death Knight, even making some gameplay changes like DKs dealing shadow damage instead of holy, and thanes having a tank tree, in order to "keep faction identity" as people put it.

In the end, I don't really understand the huge backlash this idea is getting, even going as far as to insult devs by saying "They will be idiots if they implement it". That's just mean. Let's keep it civil.

All in all, it's just a cool idea that gives more varied and interesting ways to enjoy this game, and isn't that the reason we escape from reality into video games? Contrary to your beliefs, it won't "ruin your experience" if they add more options for players that want them. If you don't like them, then don't play them. Simple as that.

[Paw]

A question out of curiosity, as you all have a deep understanding of WoW lore (I'm not being ironic).

If Thoradin hadn't unified the human tribes and, consequently, civilization hadn't developed, would it be possible for the human tribes to develop shamanism?

He united them because they were facing the trolls at the time. Given that the trolls had won if the humans not act in that manner, then in the coming years after the war's end - under the troll influence - the human way of life changed enough that they could have very well adopted the shamanistic nature of the troll race. However the human race was simply superior to the troll race at that point in time so it was evident that they prevail and in the later years learn magic instead.

[Sylveria]

I really don't understand why people whine about the gameplay-side of giving both factions all classes. We already have cross-faction grouping, so nothing PvE-related will change.
About the PvP side, it can only help to balance things if both factions have the same classes, or have you forgotten the pages of whining about paladins being too OP in PvP?

If it's such a problem, implement it only on the PvE server, and keep the PvP server as-is.

Lorewise, while I do agree that there are holes in the lore about Wildhammer shamans and Forsaken paladins, it's nothing that can't be worked around if the Turtle WoW devs really wanted to implement it. Even reskinning the classes and their abilities as Thane and Death Knight, even making some gameplay changes like DKs dealing shadow damage instead of holy, and thanes having a tank tree, in order to "keep faction identity" as people put it.

In the end, I don't really understand the huge backlash this idea is getting, even going as far as to insult devs by saying "They will be idiots if they implement it". That's just mean. Let's keep it civil.

All in all, it's just a cool idea that gives more varied and interesting ways to enjoy this game, and isn't that the reason we escape from reality into video games? Contrary to your beliefs, it won't "ruin your experience" if they add more options for players that want them. If you don't like them, then don't play them. Simple as that.

Regardless if PvE or PvP-Realm.. I can only repeat myself:

If we give in to all those ideas, Turtle may become the same as retail.
So i still stand by my statement:
It starts with taking faction uniqueness, It ends with all classes being homogenized.

And on another topic there's a whole discussion, why undead paladins (Paladins in specific - not talking about the compromise of a re-skin as a deathknight) wouldn't make sense and why they'd be against pillars of WarCraft lore.
viewtopic.php?t=10585
(It's quite offtopic there, but still, the discussion's on.)

[Imonobor]

I really don't understand why people whine about the gameplay-side of giving both factions all classes. We already have cross-faction grouping, so nothing PvE-related will change.
About the PvP side, it can only help to balance things if both factions have the same classes, or have you forgotten the pages of whining about paladins being too OP in PvP?

If it's such a problem, implement it only on the PvE server, and keep the PvP server as-is.

Lorewise, while I do agree that there are holes in the lore about Wildhammer shamans and Forsaken paladins, it's nothing that can't be worked around if the Turtle WoW devs really wanted to implement it. Even reskinning the classes and their abilities as Thane and Death Knight, even making some gameplay changes like DKs dealing shadow damage instead of holy, and thanes having a tank tree, in order to "keep faction identity" as people put it.

In the end, I don't really understand the huge backlash this idea is getting, even going as far as to insult devs by saying "They will be idiots if they implement it". That's just mean. Let's keep it civil.

All in all, it's just a cool idea that gives more varied and interesting ways to enjoy this game, and isn't that the reason we escape from reality into video games? Contrary to your beliefs, it won't "ruin your experience" if they add more options for players that want them. If you don't like them, then don't play them. Simple as that.

Regardless if PvE or PvP-Realm.. I can only repeat myself:

If we give in to all those ideas, Turtle may become the same as retail.
So i still stand by my statement:
It starts with taking faction uniqueness, It ends with all classes being homogenized.

And on another topic there's a whole discussion, why undead paladins (Paladins in specific - not talking about the compromise of a re-skin as a deathknight) wouldn't make sense and why they'd be against pillars of WarCraft lore.
viewtopic.php?t=10585
(It's quite offtopic there, but still, the discussion's on.)

While I understand the whole "Retail bad" viewpoint, I don't entirely agree with it. Nothing in life is so black-and-white.
You can't deny that the expansions DID massively improve certain aspects of the game in regards to balancing, quality of life and pure enjoyment from the gameplay, albeit to the detriment of lore consistency and (quite) a few other things (yes, retail lore is a hot mess and not worthy of being considered "canon".)

This does not mean TWoW can't borrow ideas from the expansions and implement them in a better way than Blizzard did. This has already happened countless times mind you - multiple spells like Hex, Call of the Elements, Bloodlust (off the top of my head, there are many others); Systems like raid scaling, dungeon finder, transmog and guild vaults, races like elves and goblins, transport routes, pet and mounts storage and others.

All of these features come from retail, but were implemented in a better and more vanilla-friendly way that doesn't compromise the vanilla experience in the slightest. In fact, I'd say it improves it and I think many here will agree. It doesn't "bring it closer to retail's homogenization".

I don't see why these two classes can't be implemented in a similar fashion. I've already proposed a way to keep the faction identities by having these classes be slightly different than their current counterparts. This might in fact strengthen the identity by giving each faction a unique spin on the classes. It might take a bit more work, but that hasn't deterred the awesome TWoW devs thus far.

[Skumbanana]

all races all classes WHEN?

[Paw]

all races all classes WHEN?

Yes, basically! That would be pure balance. Pls!

[Ragatho]

I that case I want Night Elf Paladin!!!

[Glaive]

Undead shaman when

I like it!

[Galindae]

Undead priests using holy magic. Noone has question here,? But are against undead paladins who would basically use Holly magic but just wear plate.
P.s undead players are marked as humans not undead Vs NPC undead. Because they are not controlled by scourge . It's mean undead paladins has bigger chance to happen than dawi shamans. From lore offc.

In older WoW design, Horde priests and most Night Elf priests only wield the Light as a game mechanic. Troll priests for example pull more from the Troll WItch Doctor religions and Night Elf priests for example mostly pull from Elune and the moon. Forsaken Priest are no different from this in the sense that playable Forsaken Priests follow the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, a reinterpretation of the Holy Light to suit the Forsaken's much more sinister, morally grey needs, and are primarily Shadow priests. Lorewise, Forsaken priests who wield the Holy Light DO exist, but are rare and the Holy Light HURTS them.

The issue here is that while Paladins and Priests wield the Light, the way that Paladins wield the Light is different to how Priests wield the Light. Paladins and Priests of the Holy Light are not the same thing. Paladins aren't just Priests in plate armor. The very nature of a Paladin is deadly towards the undead since unlike priests, Paladins were trained for the purpose of weaponizing the Light. Not to mention, as Forsaken's minds have canonically become 'corrupted' from their former living selves and hold no qualms genociding the last remaining humans in Lordaeron, Forsaken Paladins literally cannot exist because Paladins canonically lose their ability to wield the Holy Light if they perform evil deeds and fail to uphold the core tenants of the Church of the Holy Light, which Forsaken do not follow. Holy Light Priests on the other hand don't have to strictly follow the teachings of the Church of the Holy Light to keep their abilities however.

There's niche cases of Undead Paladins NPCs/enemies in Vanilla but they're former Paladins raised by Necromancers and forced to wield the Light against their will despite the pain it causes to their body, and maybe, just maybe you can some up with a plausible backstory for a potential Forsaken paladin who's disconnected himself from the Forsaken and is extremely devout to the Light in spite of the searing pain, but that's such a niche and specific character backstory that doesn't really justify opening the flood gates for thousands of playable undead paladins.

thx for lesson byt maby than undead paladins use arcane magic tipe than or shadow? and call tham dark paladins.
p.s turtle wow can create their own wow lore universe actually. like continue their own path diferent from blizzard wow. add their own hm characters with backstory.
or hm fallen humen paladins with dark sanctuary to keep their powers. special questlines what explains all, with special begining zone(there is quest in undead city what turn u into humen-disguise)

[Majestik51]

gtfo, pls close this dreamers thread asap

[Azcron]

Undead papladins are possible same as death knights . In lore first death knights where created by orc shaman trough fel force. Think he was Kel thuzad who later used arthas .....
Dwarf can't be shaman because of nature magic . Shamans use spirits and elemental magic. It's different from mage or priest magic using
Undead priests using holy magic. Noone has question here,? But are against undead paladins who would basically use Holly magic but just wear plate.
P.s undead players are marked as humans not undead Vs NPC undead. Because they are not controlled by scourge . It's mean undead paladins has bigger chance to happen than dawi shamans. From lore offc.

Just all of this is inaccurate. Def wasn't Kel'Thuzad, it was Ner'zhul.
Dwarves can be shamans, like mentioned earlier, look at the wildhammer clan.
They actually were flagged as undead in the early phases of WoW but we're later changed to "humanoid"

[Bigsmerf]

Undead papladins are possible same as death knights . In lore first death knights where created by orc shaman trough fel force. Think he was Kel thuzad who later used arthas .....
Dwarf can't be shaman because of nature magic . Shamans use spirits and elemental magic. It's different from mage or priest magic using
Undead priests using holy magic. Noone has question here,? But are against undead paladins who would basically use Holly magic but just wear plate.
P.s undead players are marked as humans not undead Vs NPC undead. Because they are not controlled by scourge . It's mean undead paladins has bigger chance to happen than dawi shamans. From lore offc.

Just all of this is inaccurate. Def wasn't Kel'Thuzad, it was Ner'zhul.
Dwarves can be shamans, like mentioned earlier, look at the wildhammer clan.
They actually were flagged as undead in the early phases of WoW but we're later changed to "humanoid"

Refer to essentially every post from Redmagejoe in this discussion. There has never been any records of Dwarf "Shamans"

[Dracarusggotham]

Undead papladins are possible same as death knights . In lore first death knights where created by orc shaman trough fel force. Think he was Kel thuzad who later used arthas .....
Dwarf can't be shaman because of nature magic . Shamans use spirits and elemental magic. It's different from mage or priest magic using
Undead priests using holy magic. Noone has question here,? But are against undead paladins who would basically use Holly magic but just wear plate.
P.s undead players are marked as humans not undead Vs NPC undead. Because they are not controlled by scourge . It's mean undead paladins has bigger chance to happen than dawi shamans. From lore offc.

Just all of this is inaccurate. Def wasn't Kel'Thuzad, it was Ner'zhul.
Dwarves can be shamans, like mentioned earlier, look at the wildhammer clan.
They actually were flagged as undead in the early phases of WoW but we're later changed to "humanoid"

Shamanism was a thing that came to Azeroth with the orcs, in the lore, the Shamanism doesn't existed in Azeroth until the orcs came with it.
Plus, the most closer thing to it was the druidism of the Night Elves, but they hided in their forest of Ashenvale until the Burning Legion attacked Azeroth in the end of the third war.
Civilized races like Dwarves, Humans, High Elves or Gnomes have their faith on the light.
And don't say "But the Wildhammer Dwarves" they are more like hunters, rangers or Beast Masters like Rexxar, Wildhammer Shamans where a retcon from Blizzard like the Cow Paladins.

Sorry but I'm a lore perfectionist, the Dwarf Shamans and Undead Paladins don't fit in it.

[Dracarusggotham]

Undead priests using holy magic. Noone has question here,? But are against undead paladins who would basically use Holly magic but just wear plate.
P.s undead players are marked as humans not undead Vs NPC undead. Because they are not controlled by scourge . It's mean undead paladins has bigger chance to happen than dawi shamans. From lore offc.

In older WoW design, Horde priests and most Night Elf priests only wield the Light as a game mechanic. Troll priests for example pull more from the Troll WItch Doctor religions and Night Elf priests for example mostly pull from Elune and the moon. Forsaken Priest are no different from this in the sense that playable Forsaken Priests follow the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, a reinterpretation of the Holy Light to suit the Forsaken's much more sinister, morally grey needs, and are primarily Shadow priests. Lorewise, Forsaken priests who wield the Holy Light DO exist, but are rare and the Holy Light HURTS them.

The issue here is that while Paladins and Priests wield the Light, the way that Paladins wield the Light is different to how Priests wield the Light. Paladins and Priests of the Holy Light are not the same thing. Paladins aren't just Priests in plate armor. The very nature of a Paladin is deadly towards the undead since unlike priests, Paladins were trained for the purpose of weaponizing the Light. Not to mention, as Forsaken's minds have canonically become 'corrupted' from their former living selves and hold no qualms genociding the last remaining humans in Lordaeron, Forsaken Paladins literally cannot exist because Paladins canonically lose their ability to wield the Holy Light if they perform evil deeds and fail to uphold the core tenants of the Church of the Holy Light, which Forsaken do not follow. Holy Light Priests on the other hand don't have to strictly follow the teachings of the Church of the Holy Light to keep their abilities however.

There's niche cases of Undead Paladins NPCs/enemies in Vanilla but they're former Paladins raised by Necromancers and forced to wield the Light against their will despite the pain it causes to their body, and maybe, just maybe you can some up with a plausible backstory for a potential Forsaken paladin who's disconnected himself from the Forsaken and is extremely devout to the Light in spite of the searing pain, but that's such a niche and specific character backstory that doesn't really justify opening the flood gates for thousands of playable undead paladins.

thx for lesson byt maby than undead paladins use arcane magic tipe than or shadow? and call tham dark paladins.
p.s turtle wow can create their own wow lore universe actually. like continue their own path diferent from blizzard wow. add their own hm characters with backstory.
or hm fallen humen paladins with dark sanctuary to keep their powers. special questlines what explains all, with special begining zone(there is quest in undead city what turn u into humen-disguise)

New class is required, I will not be against to that, my proposal:
Forsaken Death Knights.
Beast Master Dwarves.

I know the Horde needs their OP class, but breaking the lore with Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans is unnecesary.

[Galindae]

In older WoW design, Horde priests and most Night Elf priests only wield the Light as a game mechanic. Troll priests for example pull more from the Troll WItch Doctor religions and Night Elf priests for example mostly pull from Elune and the moon. Forsaken Priest are no different from this in the sense that playable Forsaken Priests follow the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow, a reinterpretation of the Holy Light to suit the Forsaken's much more sinister, morally grey needs, and are primarily Shadow priests. Lorewise, Forsaken priests who wield the Holy Light DO exist, but are rare and the Holy Light HURTS them.

The issue here is that while Paladins and Priests wield the Light, the way that Paladins wield the Light is different to how Priests wield the Light. Paladins and Priests of the Holy Light are not the same thing. Paladins aren't just Priests in plate armor. The very nature of a Paladin is deadly towards the undead since unlike priests, Paladins were trained for the purpose of weaponizing the Light. Not to mention, as Forsaken's minds have canonically become 'corrupted' from their former living selves and hold no qualms genociding the last remaining humans in Lordaeron, Forsaken Paladins literally cannot exist because Paladins canonically lose their ability to wield the Holy Light if they perform evil deeds and fail to uphold the core tenants of the Church of the Holy Light, which Forsaken do not follow. Holy Light Priests on the other hand don't have to strictly follow the teachings of the Church of the Holy Light to keep their abilities however.

There's niche cases of Undead Paladins NPCs/enemies in Vanilla but they're former Paladins raised by Necromancers and forced to wield the Light against their will despite the pain it causes to their body, and maybe, just maybe you can some up with a plausible backstory for a potential Forsaken paladin who's disconnected himself from the Forsaken and is extremely devout to the Light in spite of the searing pain, but that's such a niche and specific character backstory that doesn't really justify opening the flood gates for thousands of playable undead paladins.

thx for lesson byt maby than undead paladins use arcane magic tipe than or shadow? and call tham dark paladins.
p.s turtle wow can create their own wow lore universe actually. like continue their own path diferent from blizzard wow. add their own hm characters with backstory.
or hm fallen humen paladins with dark sanctuary to keep their powers. special questlines what explains all, with special begining zone(there is quest in undead city what turn u into humen-disguise)

New class is required, I will not be against to that, my proposal:
Forsaken Death Knights.
Beast Master Dwarves.

I know the Horde needs their OP class, but breaking the lore with Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans is unnecesary.

second tought where elfs in service in sylvana.
byt y death knight, i like idea and beast master - isnt they same as hunter maby only melle biased?

[Voulome]

I got a better one, that i know everyone will love !

Remove priest from Horde, remove demonist from alliance, et voila ! :3

[Deso5618]

While i agree, that wildhammer dwarves could fit for shamans, the problem is for undead paladins in lorewise because.

How you explain them? Risen former members of scarlet crusade? Yeah it could work, but then both classes loose thier indentity, as they did when TBC was released.

But on second hand... We got crossfaction guilds, so this is double sided blade.

[Majestik51]

close this thread asap pls devs!!!

there some retail enjoyers here

[Twinking]

Do it on a pvp server, maybe it will make it at least a little viable.

[Ishilu]

Big -1 from me here.

a) Faction identity.
b) Dwarven runemasters make some sense lorewise (and even a hordie like me must admit that wildhammer dwarves are cool), but undead paladins... nope.
c) Even if UD paladins got a reskin to death knights (that would make as much sense as putting undead into the horde in the first place), we'd get paladins (which are commonly accepted to be OP, anyway) with will of the forsaken on top. I don't think that's a good idea.
d) If any race on horde side should get a new class, I'd rather propose tauren due to them having only 4 class options at the moment or goblins due to being underplayed.

An alternative long term project for the dev team could be adding more racials in order to diversify classes more and give them a more unique flavour. For example, undead warriors could get racials which are conceptually borrowed from death knights, while dwarven warriors and/or paladins could get a lightning based ability or two. This approach might also open a road to nightelf demon hunters, troll witchdoctors and shadowhunters, goblin sappers tauren warriors-with-treetrunks-for-weapons, necromancers(!?) and whatnot.

There have been threads about proposed new racials and maybe we can work with these.

[Slashignore]

Und PALA / Dwarf Shaman WHEN?

[Ataika]

For pvp server please add undead paladins and alliance dwarf shaman that will surely attract people to the server

[Sylveria]

Und PALA / Dwarf Shaman WHEN?

Hopefully never.

[Dracarusggotham]

Und PALA / Dwarf Shaman WHEN?

Hopefully never.

Agreed
Better say:
Undead Death Knights and Dwarfs Runemasters when?

[Majestik51]

u guys are mental....

[Imonobor]

u guys are mental....

Indeed we are.
Undead Death Knights and Dwarf Runemasters when?

[Sylveria]

Und PALA / Dwarf Shaman WHEN?

Hopefully never.

Agreed
Better say:
Undead Death Knights and Dwarfs Runemasters when?

I actually once Made a Suggestion that the death knight would be the horde-paladin-counterpart and Not the Shaman. Like.. If Draenei (in whatever Form) will Come for the alliance they could be shamans, but in Order to keep the uniqueness of each Faction, Horde (Orcs and Undead) would get the Deathknight.
On Nordanaar the Alliance is also overrepresented (mostly because many people Like their high elves, i do so too), and the death knight would give the Horde some more appeal.

[Majestik51]

theres so many possible new classes that can be imported....
i give u a list:

1)Death Knight
2)Necromancer
3)Shadow Shaman
4) Tinker
5) Phantom Assasin
6) Demon Hunter
7) Death Prophet
9) Enchantress
10) Nature Prophet
11)Blademaster
12) Witch Doctor

So pls dont stuck with ur head to palas and shamans, suggest some positive things, or else go play retail

[Deso5618]

theres so many possible new classes that can be imported....
i give u a list:

1)Death Knight
2)Necromancer
3)Shadow Shaman
4) Tinker
5) Phantom Assasin
6) Demon Hunter
7) Death Prophet
9) Enchantress
10) Nature Prophet
11)Blademaster
12) Witch Doctor

So pls dont stuck with ur head to palas and shamans, suggest some positive things, or else go play retail

Can i have evoker please?

[Majestik51]

theres so many possible new classes that can be imported....
i give u a list:

1)Death Knight
2)Necromancer
3)Shadow Shaman
4) Tinker
5) Phantom Assasin
6) Demon Hunter
7) Death Prophet
9) Enchantress
10) Nature Prophet
11)Blademaster
12) Witch Doctor

So pls dont stuck with ur head to palas and shamans, suggest some positive things, or else go play retail

Can i have evoker please?

INvoker maybe yes, but evoker never! in this lifetime...

[Sagabal]

every argument i've seen against undead paladins makes me think that maybe turtle should remove undead priests for lore reasons and see how people react