This forum is pointless for the Team?

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Zvyrhol
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This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Zvyrhol » Fri Mar 01, 2024 6:17 pm

This post is intended to express my criticism about Turtle Team lack of communication that was uncovered in the last AV backdoor fix and sad conclusion which is implied by that.

As you might know, on 28th February we saw a change log that informed us about AV backdoor in Horde's base being fixed. The problem was the Team reacted in turtle-speed because this unintended mechanic has been discussed for long months or even years not only in this Forum, not only in discord channels but also ingame /bg chat EVERY DAY. In the recent months, there was at least once post in "AV backdoor", "AV bias" topics each day, these topics were hotly discussed btw. What's funny is that from what I saw nobody on this Forum even tried to defend that this mechanic should stay in the game, I suppose 99% of people playing here agree backdoors shouldn't exist in this server. Meanwhile, each day, almost every time Alliance "Siege" of Frostwolf Keep in Alterac Valley looked like this for long months:



The fact that this random video uploaded in imgur got similar number of views as the official 1.17.1 announcement on YouTube is hilarious. That's right, AV was played this way for months.

And here we move to the source of this problem. Why has the backdoor remained in this state for that long? Why were people discussing it at least once a day on the forum, discord, in game and nothing was done about it? Why GMs didn't even bother contacting devs to fix the issue?
Some might be surprised by the fact that developers usually don't read this forum. Developers =/= Game Masters. Moreover, if the issue concerns battleground which is considered PVP content on RP-PVE realm, all developers seemed to bury their heads in the sand and not even investigate this issue. How about GMs? They claim to read the forum but in fact they did nothing about (I will tell you what we had to do to fix the issue later). They didn't even do a simple thing like contacting just one developer who is able to put invisible walls to prevent the backdoor. The case of AV backdoor uncovered the fact that BG content discussion on this Forum is ignored by Turtle Team.

But what happened that this backdoor was finally fixed? Did the "bad" developers finally started listening to the community? lol. It was fixed by accident because @Melg decided to present backdoor issue not on forum, not on discord but this time on github. He presented all details about the backdoor, gathered the infamous data of 260 AV games that showed his actual winrate. Thanks to his work, we can now assume that for the whole time Alliance had won ~65% of AVs mainly thanks to the backdoor.

The Dev responsible for the fix probably didn't know about the issue, nevertheless he agreed to fix the backdoor. To sum up, the issue was discussed for months and the bug/unintended terrain exploit was fixed because someone reported it on github instead of other way of contacting with developers.

I blame the GMs for ignoring our DMs on discord and not redirecting us to github at first. This backdoor could have been fixed months earlier if only we had known that was the only way to contact with developers. I blame Turtle WoW Team in general for having error in the Forum system (BG topics ignored by everyone in team). This whole situation abused my faith in this Forum...
The devil is in the detail.
viewtopic.php?t=13520
viewtopic.php?t=14041

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Twinking
Posts: 108

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Twinking » Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:19 pm

That's right, there is no Bug Tracker section on the forum, here you can discuss strategies in BG, share your experience or suggest something...
A backdoor is an exploit, a mistake made by the developers during creation, it should also be reviewed in git, and on the forum you discuss whether it should be fixed or not...

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Redmagejoe
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Redmagejoe » Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:22 pm

Image

Wow, it's almost like a forum is intended for announcements by Staff to the users, and for users to discuss topics with OTHER users, and there's a specific separate tool designed for development which is advertised in announcements and by GMs and Forum Mods every time someone tries to make a "bug report" on the forums.

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Darktifa
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Darktifa » Fri Mar 01, 2024 7:52 pm

When everyone has access to the forum,
"suggesting" anything around benefiting their "main hero" syndrome,
good or essential suggestions, consequently will be ignored!

You blame the Turtle team etc, i blame the player base
NEVER listen to the player base, majority has NO CLUE (imo)

EXAMPLE:
Oh look, i don't play in the pvp realm (i played 2 hours on November, im the best)
but hear me out, cause my opinion is necessary (whatever that's supposed to mean)
pvp realm sucks and should be closed, told u so...
Czasku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:31 pm
After Reading Turtle WoW's forum i understood why Blizzard stopped responding on their own forum topics.

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Gantulga
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Gantulga » Fri Mar 01, 2024 8:12 pm

Supposedly they do read this forum even though they never respond in any capacity.
For us though, posting here is a form of therapeutic coping.
Last edited by Gantulga on Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Drubarrymooer
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Drubarrymooer » Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:01 pm

"I don't see or hear any actions, therefore there must be no action taking place.". It's a small dev team, including some with day jobs. If it's in the bug tracker, that's all we can do besides make posts like this to bring attention to it.

I will say, the dev team is pretty quiet in regards to stuff like this. A "we're aware of the problem and it's on the bucket list to fix, most likely in X number of days/weeks". I know the development cycle and programming isn't always so cut and dry... But you get what I'm trying to say.

Koronisz
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Koronisz » Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:37 pm

I refuse to believe that you actually thought they were not aware of the flagrant exploit before that bug was opened on GitHub. Lmfao.

The only thing that thread might have done is escalate the issue to an embarrassing level, prompting it to be prioritized.

As per the blatant lack of communication, I too have been dissatisfied but then again you can't really blame them for not wanting to participate when the vast majority of posters have room temperature IQs and are incapable of formulating a coherent sentence while requesting the most absurd things.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:54 pm

they SAY devs are checking the forum every week or so..
i find that hard to believe.
i dont get why the staffs/devs are not more interactive with people using the forum.

Grizb37
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Grizb37 » Fri Mar 01, 2024 9:57 pm

I mean look at paladins 2 years later still bugged holy strike with berserking doing 5k crits on plate

Not sure why they feel they have to wait for 'class changes 2' to address a balance issue. Surely can be rectified with a slight nerf in a weekly update.

Bogyone
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Bogyone » Sat Mar 02, 2024 7:19 am

Would it suffice to increase height of fence doodad to prevent jumping in from hill? mad_turtle

Xudo
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Xudo » Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:33 am

I completely understand that developers are small team with own priorities.
Though, here is a case while highly requested change was implemented only after being described on the github. AV geometry before the change was blizzlike, so this change technically is not a bugfix. It is a suggestion.

This case lead to situation that you need to post suggestions on github, rather than on forum.
So I think that correct workflow is to discuss stuff with people on the forums and when people found out all the details, then post suggestion on github.
I think that github actually a better place for small specific suggestions. It has better search, it has labels, it is easier to add images there. There is a guy who sorts the mess coming to github, checks for duplicates and tracks history.

I also agree that typical suggestion here benefit "main hero" of the author, without any understandings of balance and whole situation. Suggestions like "add more damage to warlocks" should not be created on github.
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Marafado
Posts: 131

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Marafado » Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:49 pm

russiam management with chima players, its a proper pirate server :)

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Redmagejoe
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Redmagejoe » Sat Mar 02, 2024 4:29 pm

Marafado wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:49 pm
russiam management with chima players, its a proper pirate server :)
Who let this retard who doesn't know the difference between the letter N and the letter M onto the forums to shitpost?

Marafado
Posts: 131

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Marafado » Sat Mar 02, 2024 5:11 pm

Redmagejoe wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2024 4:29 pm
Marafado wrote:
Sat Mar 02, 2024 2:49 pm
russiam management with chima players, its a proper pirate server :)
Who let this retard who doesn't know the difference between the letter N and the letter M onto the forums to shitpost?
dont think is polite to use the "retard" word these days, i sugest you to call me "person with special needs" :)

Aljfnakjlf
Posts: 1

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Aljfnakjlf » Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:49 pm

Zvyrhol wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2024 6:17 pm
This post is intended to express my criticism about Turtle Team lack of communication that was uncovered in the last AV backdoor fix and sad conclusion which is implied by that.
Careful about criticizing the team.

Management and the GMs would rather comb through your chat logs and perma you for something you said half a year ago and already been punished for. Happened to the guy in your gif.

But on topic, yea it's hilarious how issues are brought up for months on discord and the forums and then it gets immediately solved once it hits the bugtracker and it's not a bug. Organisation and communication of the team is so bad.

Have you considered posting this criticism to the bugtracker maybe?

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Torta
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Torta » Sun Mar 03, 2024 12:14 am

We do check out the forums and tracker, and we usually share updates and address the issues through our weekly changelogs every Tuesday in the Patch Notes forum.

If you want to report a bug, please use our tracker: https://github.com/slowtorta/turtlewow- ... ker/issues

With an upcoming website overhaul, we'll soon be launching our own self-hosted tracker, eliminating the need for creating any additional accounts.


Forums are mainly for players to chat with each other. We're more focused on bug tracker reports because we've got a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes, and adding Forum or Discord reports to our QA/Development routine would overall slow things down.

We like hearing your suggestions on the forums, but we've got our own game plan, both publicly and internally. Squeezing in new ideas, even if they're awesome, is not always possible.

Still, we do take note of good suggestions, but the implementation might take a few months or even longer, given the load of things we're handling.

We're all hands on deck here, so we ask for a bit of patience and understanding.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:40 pm

Torta..

we dont wanna use Github
make a forumplace for that! you are missing out so many reports because people dont wanna use that place you suggest.
you might want us to do it. but it aint happening so time to adapt ;)

Ibux
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Ibux » Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:44 pm

do you think the people who are too lazy to use github to report will give them good feedback on game issues to this forum? it will probably take forever to fix all the issues that are already on the github link.

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Darktifa
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Darktifa » Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:47 pm

Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:40 pm
we dont wanna use Github
beggars can't be choosers
Czasku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:31 pm
After Reading Turtle WoW's forum i understood why Blizzard stopped responding on their own forum topics.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:12 pm

Darktifa wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:47 pm
Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 6:40 pm
we dont wanna use Github
beggars can't be choosers
It has nothing to do with beggars cant be choosers really .. not this time

if we dont use it they wont get bug information. I know alot of people (including me) that says they cant be arsed using github to explain the bug when the perfect fine forum is here.

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Darktifa
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Darktifa » Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:18 pm

Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:12 pm
It has nothing to do with beggars cant be choosers really .. not this time

if we dont use it they wont get bug information. I know alot of people (including me) that says they cant be arsed using github to explain the bug when the perfect fine forum is here.
we can use it
YOU can't
and there is nothing stopping you from learning how to use it
Czasku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:31 pm
After Reading Turtle WoW's forum i understood why Blizzard stopped responding on their own forum topics.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:51 pm

Darktifa wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:18 pm
Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:12 pm
It has nothing to do with beggars cant be choosers really .. not this time

if we dont use it they wont get bug information. I know alot of people (including me) that says they cant be arsed using github to explain the bug when the perfect fine forum is here.
we can use it
YOU can't
and there is nothing stopping you from learning how to use it
then explain why we need to different places
when this forum is just fine.
its just stupid - i know you like to pretend you are more correct than others.. but theres no reason to make things more complicated by using more sites.

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Darktifa
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Darktifa » Sun Mar 03, 2024 8:10 pm

Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:51 pm
then explain why we need 2 different places
There is just 1 place to report bugs
GitHub.
viewtopic.php?t=1822

Forum is here to read patch notes - changes
find useful addon - advice/tips
and give u the impression that your well thought suggestions are read by the developers
Czasku wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2024 6:31 pm
After Reading Turtle WoW's forum i understood why Blizzard stopped responding on their own forum topics.

Drubarrymooer
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Drubarrymooer » Sun Mar 03, 2024 10:52 pm

Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:51 pm
Darktifa wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:18 pm
Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:12 pm
It has nothing to do with beggars cant be choosers really .. not this time

if we dont use it they wont get bug information. I know alot of people (including me) that says they cant be arsed using github to explain the bug when the perfect fine forum is here.
we can use it
YOU can't
and there is nothing stopping you from learning how to use it
then explain why we need to different places
when this forum is just fine.
its just stupid - i know you like to pretend you are more correct than others.. but theres no reason to make things more complicated by using more sites.
I mean github is kind of an all in one programming tool. If you can't use it, learn it. If you refuse, make a friend that can post the bug for you. The forum isn't for programming or coding at all. It's just a way to gather and socialize information outside of the game.

Also, ignore darktifa. They're just a forum troll.

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Ataika
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Ataika » Mon Mar 04, 2024 7:19 am

Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:51 pm
Darktifa wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:18 pm
Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:12 pm
It has nothing to do with beggars cant be choosers really .. not this time

if we dont use it they wont get bug information. I know alot of people (including me) that says they cant be arsed using github to explain the bug when the perfect fine forum is here.
we can use it
YOU can't
and there is nothing stopping you from learning how to use it
then explain why we need to different places
when this forum is just fine.
its just stupid - i know you like to pretend you are more correct than others.. but theres no reason to make things more complicated by using more sites.
this is probably the first time when cringetifa is right
github is comfortable tool to monitor bug progress
all you have to do is - register an account + make a simple ticket
if you are really ineterested, you will report

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Zulnam
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Zulnam » Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:52 am

Awww, AV still bugged?

Bummer.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:24 pm

Ataika wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 7:19 am
Slashignore wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:51 pm
Darktifa wrote:
Sun Mar 03, 2024 7:18 pm


we can use it
YOU can't
and there is nothing stopping you from learning how to use it
then explain why we need to different places
when this forum is just fine.
its just stupid - i know you like to pretend you are more correct than others.. but theres no reason to make things more complicated by using more sites.
this is probably the first time when cringetifa is right
github is comfortable tool to monitor bug progress
all you have to do is - register an account + make a simple ticket
if you are really ineterested, you will report
mu point is - me and others dosent bother to registrer yet another place to post a bug

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Redmagejoe
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Redmagejoe » Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:41 pm

Slashignore wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:24 pm
mu point is - me and others dosent bother to registrer yet another place to post a bug
Then it's not an important enough issue to bring to the team. You seem to be misrepresenting this or misunderstanding. The team isn't going to try to stay on top of a forum whose purpose has never been for bug tracking, when a universally-utilized subversioning and development tool like GitHub makes the workflow easier to keep track of work with. Many software developers, not just Turtle, rely on GitHub for bugtracking as well.

Saying you don't want to sign up "just to report Turtle bugs" misses the point that it facilitates you reporting bugs for basically any piece of open-source or community-collaborative software you intend to use. If you don't want to use it, just accept that you're not concerned enough about the state of the game to report bugs the proper way.

Don't try to frame it like the devs just "don't care enough" to accommodate your laziness when they already have 500 other things going on with finite resources. What are you doing that's so important that you cannot make a small, incredibly reasonable concession rather than demanding the team should make a completely unreasonable concession like moving to a platform wholly unfit for development, a team that is developing content WHILE redesigning classes WHILE trying to fix bugs WHILE trying to do their real jobs WHILE having lives outside this game and MAYBE WHILE actually playing the game a little bit.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:55 am

Redmagejoe wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:41 pm
Slashignore wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:24 pm
mu point is - me and others dosent bother to registrer yet another place to post a bug
Then it's not an important enough issue to bring to the team. You seem to be misrepresenting this or misunderstanding. The team isn't going to try to stay on top of a forum whose purpose has never been for bug tracking, when a universally-utilized subversioning and development tool like GitHub makes the workflow easier to keep track of work with. Many software developers, not just Turtle, rely on GitHub for bugtracking as well.

Saying you don't want to sign up "just to report Turtle bugs" misses the point that it facilitates you reporting bugs for basically any piece of open-source or community-collaborative software you intend to use. If you don't want to use it, just accept that you're not concerned enough about the state of the game to report bugs the proper way.

Don't try to frame it like the devs just "don't care enough" to accommodate your laziness when they already have 500 other things going on with finite resources. What are you doing that's so important that you cannot make a small, incredibly reasonable concession rather than demanding the team should make a completely unreasonable concession like moving to a platform wholly unfit for development, a team that is developing content WHILE redesigning classes WHILE trying to fix bugs WHILE trying to do their real jobs WHILE having lives outside this game and MAYBE WHILE actually playing the game a little bit.

well dont kill the messenger :) im just saying that alot people cant be arsed making the account even on another site.

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Ataika
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Ataika » Tue Mar 05, 2024 8:24 am

Slashignore wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:55 am
Redmagejoe wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:41 pm
Slashignore wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:24 pm
mu point is - me and others dosent bother to registrer yet another place to post a bug
Then it's not an important enough issue to bring to the team. You seem to be misrepresenting this or misunderstanding. The team isn't going to try to stay on top of a forum whose purpose has never been for bug tracking, when a universally-utilized subversioning and development tool like GitHub makes the workflow easier to keep track of work with. Many software developers, not just Turtle, rely on GitHub for bugtracking as well.

Saying you don't want to sign up "just to report Turtle bugs" misses the point that it facilitates you reporting bugs for basically any piece of open-source or community-collaborative software you intend to use. If you don't want to use it, just accept that you're not concerned enough about the state of the game to report bugs the proper way.

Don't try to frame it like the devs just "don't care enough" to accommodate your laziness when they already have 500 other things going on with finite resources. What are you doing that's so important that you cannot make a small, incredibly reasonable concession rather than demanding the team should make a completely unreasonable concession like moving to a platform wholly unfit for development, a team that is developing content WHILE redesigning classes WHILE trying to fix bugs WHILE trying to do their real jobs WHILE having lives outside this game and MAYBE WHILE actually playing the game a little bit.

well dont kill the messenger :) im just saying that alot people cant be arsed making the account even on another site.
Then the problem they are describing is not so important to them

Xudo
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Xudo » Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:17 am

Slashignore wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:24 pm
mu point is - me and others dosent bother to registrer yet another place to post a bug
did you report your bug?
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:59 pm

Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:17 am
Slashignore wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:24 pm
mu point is - me and others dosent bother to registrer yet another place to post a bug
did you report your bug?
no as i said, i am not interested in signing up yet another place.

Nitaya
Posts: 66

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Nitaya » Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:39 pm

Why was this thread created?

It is CLEARLY written that bugs must be reported on GITHUB.
OP then whines about that many time x exploit was posted y times on the FORUM and still developers did not fix.
OP also whines that nobody instructed them, where to go with a bug. It is the 1st topic in Help & Support: viewforum.php?f=3

OP had 200+ posts in Forum and NEVER bothered to check that part.
Yet he claims to be some advanced player in wow, but can't even read and understand basic instructions.

Xudo
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Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Xudo » Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:41 pm

Slashignore wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:59 pm
Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:17 am
Slashignore wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2024 10:24 pm
mu point is - me and others dosent bother to registrer yet another place to post a bug
did you report your bug?
no as i said, i am not interested in signing up yet another place.
Here you don't need to sign up in another place to fill bug report https://turtle-wow.org/bug-tracker
Xudo - tauren warrior 19 Sergeant armory.
I don't raid and rank, so you can not bother asking.
Nerf high level enchants on low level gear
Add lvl requirement to bandages
Best and optimal gear for 10-19 twinks
Have fun not only at 60.

Slashignore
Posts: 196

Re: This forum is pointless for the Team?

Post by Slashignore » Fri Mar 15, 2024 4:37 pm

Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 2:41 pm
Slashignore wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 12:59 pm
Xudo wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2024 3:17 am


did you report your bug?
no as i said, i am not interested in signing up yet another place.
Here you don't need to sign up in another place to fill bug report https://turtle-wow.org/bug-tracker
I replied here right before i saw the other post.
And i will use this bugtracker if needed. (already got one comming)

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