Class Changes 2

[Grizb37]

I hope the Devs, rather than adding and basically backporting all the skills from future expansions just work on the vanilla skills and tweak / improve them

I felt with SoD It didn't feel like vanilla gameplay with all the new skills.

I mean Mage healers and Warlock tanks.... Just killed SoD for me.


All we need is existing skills buffing / balancing / making useful and talents so we retain that vanilla feeling, but closing the gap on warriors insane DPS, so all classes can compete.

[Gantulga]

closing the gap on warriors insane DPS, so all classes can compete.

This is more of a warrior issue than everybody else's issue though. Warrior is simply overloaded with too many snowball mechanics, too high of a gear scaling and poorly thought-out design choices like the busted rage generation/getting rage off critters or execute.
Bringing everybody up to warrior's power level would just mean mindless power creep and will result in the need to buff basically all group content in the game.

I do agree on elaborating on the vanilla skillsets though. We've received multiple really out of place custom skills in here that only keep causing issues.

[Booth]

vanilla was crap! it was unfinished and it was flawed! Blizzard did make a great mmo but the rest was not good! I played from EU-beta so i did it! Forcing ppl to certain speccs, great fun pressing 1 button, and when that 1 button coudnt be pressed you downranked that button!

SOD is fun, this should be V+, its + when it comes to the world turtle made, its great, way better then blizzard ever made. but the classes aint.

[Gantulga]

I do think borrowing a few ideas from TBC here and there would be fine though since the expansion mostly elaborated on vanilla's design, with some exceptions which went too far (like mage).

[Booth]

I play shaman that is what i have played mostly the last 18 years!

In SOD at lvl 40!
I can:
- Tank very good if i want to
- Enchancement dps is also both fun and good
- I can heal if i want to
- I can shoot lightningsbolt, with lavaburst with proccs and chainlightning.

in turtle wow
i cant rly tank very good
i can dps as enchanment but is shocks and autoattack not rly fun
i can heal, but there isnt any gear for healing, we dont use spirit, we dont haven any mp5 gear and so on.
i can shoot lightningbolts at bosses but if i do it on 1 trashpack i have to drink more less after every pack.

i am rly hopeing for some changes! Dont need to be SOD! But for most part of the players, its about lvling! Make it more fun!

[Zulnam]

I heard turtle is working on making priest discipline spec a tanking spec.

Finally.

[Tanasa]

Grow sack. Embrace the discordance of class change. Become superior devs.

[Dingoman]

i'm a conservative man, make everything more vanilla

Grow sack.

Bro... you are that kind of orc.

[Tanasa]

Grow sack.

Bro... you are that kind of orc.

I am, in all honesty, that kind of orc.

[Ishilu]

I do think borrowing a few ideas from TBC here and there would be fine though since the expansion mostly elaborated on vanilla's design, with some exceptions which went too far (like mage).

You're right. Vanilla was fun, but some class design choices were questionable at best and they made a good effort in TBC to fix these. Looking at TBC when looking for possible solutions to vanilla class problems is a good idea. Even WotLK brought a few ideas which were not bad, but they just failed at making properly tuned and interesting solo or 5-man content.

I have no opinion about SoD. Maybe I'll give it a shot on a private server in a year or two when the hype is over.

[Biteyou]

I hope the Devs, rather than adding and basically backporting all the skills from future expansions just work on the vanilla skills and tweak / improve them

I felt with SoD It didn't feel like vanilla gameplay with all the new skills.

I mean Mage healers and Warlock tanks.... Just killed SoD for me.


All we need is existing skills buffing / balancing / making useful and talents so we retain that vanilla feeling, but closing the gap on warriors insane DPS, so all classes can compete.

Warriors need more balancing around other things if you nerf their DPS (compared to everyone else). Objectively the worst/hardest class to play outside of being a top DPS spec for raids. Why take away their one advantage? Solo farming sucks, PVP is a ton of extra work if you don't have a pocket healer, you don't really buff the raid outside of your own group (which last 2 minutes), you have no threat wipe, you can't heal yourself. You literally don't bring utility to the raid that isn't done by another class better other than high damage. You can see how this has negatively effected warriors on SoD to the point where unless you're in a stable raid group, there are no reasons to bring warriors to raid. I don't really understand why people get upset that warriors pump so hard, it's literally all we have outside of tanking.

[Tekamthi]

I've been playing wow about 6 months now on turtle, don't really have much experience with the game other than that. Have one toon at 40 so far and a few alts in their twenties. Still learning all the intricacies of this game but from what I've seen, there are a number of talent options that are just useless, throw-away-your-points style choices no matter what build you choose.

Would be nice to see turtle tweak em all to be somewhat worthwhile, and if this means we need a few more roles that existing classes can't serve, like tank Warlocks and mage healers etc., I'm not against this. To me all that matters is that each overlap feels distinct when played. Playing as a tank Warlock if such existed, must play substantially differently than any other tank, even if the role served in party and raid ends up being similar. Can't comment in SoD never played it, but the rune system does sound too drastic imo -- would rather just see existing things in turtle built out to be more viable choices

The idea of more tank and healer roles in particular seems worthwhile to explore. At least 50% of my attempts to do dungeons on turtle have resulted in sitting in queue for hours, piddling away on side quests in open world while waiting for tanks and healers.

[Gantulga]

I hope the Devs, rather than adding and basically backporting all the skills from future expansions just work on the vanilla skills and tweak / improve them

I felt with SoD It didn't feel like vanilla gameplay with all the new skills.

I mean Mage healers and Warlock tanks.... Just killed SoD for me.


All we need is existing skills buffing / balancing / making useful and talents so we retain that vanilla feeling, but closing the gap on warriors insane DPS, so all classes can compete.

Warriors need more balancing around other things if you nerf their DPS (compared to everyone else). Objectively the worst/hardest class to play outside of being a top DPS spec for raids. Why take away their one advantage? Solo farming sucks, PVP is a ton of extra work if you don't have a pocket healer, you don't really buff the raid outside of your own group (which last 2 minutes), you have no threat wipe, you can't heal yourself. You literally don't bring utility to the raid that isn't done by another class better other than high damage. You can see how this has negatively effected warriors on SoD to the point where unless you're in a stable raid group, there are no reasons to bring warriors to raid. I don't really understand why people get upset that warriors pump so hard, it's literally all we have outside of tanking.

Holy shit the amount of blatant disinformation.

[Manletow]

Generally I agree that existing terrible/mediocre skills/abilities/talents should be buffed
and overpowered things like Holy (Turtle) Strike removed from the game

But a few essential things from TBC/WoTLK are welcome.
Such as Shattering Throw for Warriors (so they have a utility function in PVP whilst giving the game an actual counter to immunity shield horseshit).

[Jc473]

Warriors need more balancing around other things if you nerf their DPS (compared to everyone else). Objectively the worst/hardest class to play outside of being a top DPS spec for raids. Why take away their one advantage? Solo farming sucks, PVP is a ton of extra work if you don't have a pocket healer, you don't really buff the raid outside of your own group (which last 2 minutes), you have no threat wipe, you can't heal yourself. You literally don't bring utility to the raid that isn't done by another class better other than high damage. You can see how this has negatively effected warriors on SoD to the point where unless you're in a stable raid group, there are no reasons to bring warriors to raid. I don't really understand why people get upset that warriors pump so hard, it's literally all we have outside of tanking.

Because it doesn't feel right to have a class that holds the top spot for DPS and tanking. Even on TWoW, warriors are the best tanks on almost all fights due to their toolkits (i.e. 'oh shit' buttons). As for DPS, the warrior scaling is already too powerful at later stages, let alone when they add T3.5/T4 content (assuming there is vertical gear progression).

Like it or not, warriors are a hybrid class too (i.e. can fulfil multiple roles). The reason why they were fine back in Vanilla was because no one realised/understood just how well their DPS scaled late into the game. Back then, warriors were typically brought as tanks and sure as hell were not dual wielding when performing this role! I think this was simply an oversight from a dev perspective. Had they realised, I'm sure they would've reigned warriors back in on the DPS front (probably change how rage generation works).

[Biteyou]

Warriors need more balancing around other things if you nerf their DPS (compared to everyone else). Objectively the worst/hardest class to play outside of being a top DPS spec for raids. Why take away their one advantage? Solo farming sucks, PVP is a ton of extra work if you don't have a pocket healer, you don't really buff the raid outside of your own group (which last 2 minutes), you have no threat wipe, you can't heal yourself. You literally don't bring utility to the raid that isn't done by another class better other than high damage. You can see how this has negatively effected warriors on SoD to the point where unless you're in a stable raid group, there are no reasons to bring warriors to raid. I don't really understand why people get upset that warriors pump so hard, it's literally all we have outside of tanking.

Because it doesn't feel right to have a class that holds the top spot for DPS and tanking. Even on TWoW, warriors are the best tanks on almost all fights due to their toolkits (i.e. 'oh shit' buttons). As for DPS, the warrior scaling is already too powerful at later stages, let alone when they add T3.5/T4 content (assuming there is vertical gear progression).

Like it or not, warriors are a hybrid class too (i.e. can fulfil multiple roles). The reason why they were fine back in Vanilla was because no one realised/understood just how well their DPS scaled late into the game. Back then, warriors were typically brought as tanks and sure as hell were not dual wielding when performing this role! I think this was simply an oversight from a dev perspective. Had they realised, I'm sure they would've reigned warriors back in on the DPS front (probably change how rage generation works).

Tanking and dpsing are not the only thing that exist in WoW. It's two things where they exceed in within a game with multiple facets. PvP, open world farming/soloing are two examples come to mind where without a significant amount of gear and consumes, they just fall flat. You can look at every class across the board and see that they have something to offer other than strictly pumping the highest DPS possible to a raid environment as well that warriors do not have. Not everyone is meant to be equal in everything.

[Jc473]

Tanking and dpsing are not the only thing that exist in WoW. It's two things where they exceed in within a game with multiple facets. PvP, open world farming/soloing are two examples come to mind where without a significant amount of gear and consumes, they just fall flat. You can look at every class across the board and see that they have something to offer other than strictly pumping the highest DPS possible to a raid environment as well that warriors do not have. Not everyone is meant to be equal in everything.

In a raid environment, you've just implied that warriors have nothing to offer, other than highest DPS possible, compared to all other classes. You know full well that their tanking is unrivalled so I have no idea how you came to this conclusion. Throughout the raid, a warrior can either switch weapons or spec (thanks to brainwashing device) liberally and add massive value to a raid with this flexibility. Is it the equivalent of things like banishing/hibernating/polymorphing? Well, that's like comparing apples and oranges but the fact is that there is a reason why many raids crave the unrivalled DPS/tanking outputs that any one warrior can offer.

I completely agree that not every class/spec needs to be equal across all facets of the game. That kind of 'symmetrical' game design is incredily bland. But let's not pretend that tanking/dpsing capabilities in dungeons/raids isn't a major and very popular aspect of the game. Assuming the gear/consumes aren't available, I don't consider the 'weakness' of warrior in other aspects of the game is enough to justify how good they are in raids/dungeons. I think it's fairly clear that their prowess in this portion of the game is an outlier. You can definitely peg them back in some regard without making 'everything feel equal'.

[Pristn]

i love shama more than other classes. But need buff for them. 2 1 and weapons for ench, and SPD totem for ele at least.

[Kendog0013]

I play shaman that is what i have played mostly the last 18 years!

In SOD at lvl 40!
I can:
- Tank very good if i want to
- Enchancement dps is also both fun and good
- I can heal if i want to
- I can shoot lightningsbolt, with lavaburst with proccs and chainlightning.

in turtle wow
i cant rly tank very good
i can dps as enchanment but is shocks and autoattack not rly fun
i can heal, but there isnt any gear for healing, we dont use spirit, we dont haven any mp5 gear and so on.
i can shoot lightningbolts at bosses but if i do it on 1 trashpack i have to drink more less after every pack.

i am rly hopeing for some changes! Dont need to be SOD! But for most part of the players, its about lvling! Make it more fun!

shamans can most definitely heal and most certainly have gear for it; however, it is not the most sought after, but with mp5 gear (totem from black morass being a huge one; as well as the trinket from epiddimu) and healing power a resto shammy can be a pretty good 'big healer' in a composition. The ancestral fortitude buff is just the icing on top for getting crit heals and actually does increase the healed targets survivability by a decent margin.

source: i have a resto shammy thats stacked pretty hard on mp5/hp and do just fine in up to BWL as resto

[Akos1896]

Raiding at high level with resto.
Its itemization is mostly solved for PVE raiding. BUT! I doN't really know how the current leveling experience is like. 5% mana regen while casting items+tea+some custom items made resto shamans not only very good, borderline oppressive, if the raid has the luxury to put a resto in a healer group with an arcane mage and a tree druid.

Ele is doable but their core problems have to be addressed:
* Their threat totem is air and they usually get a bunch of melees as teammates. Tranquil air totem is rarely used by them.
* They can only maintain nat spell damage and they have 0 spell peentration talent.
* Their mana management got better in TWOW. Not optimal but better.
Let's say if tranquil air totem changes to fire type, it mostly solves the ele in a melee group threat problem (only Naxx gets janky).
* A spell peentration talent, a non-nat damaging spell (maintainable) or some kind of gear set bonus giving penetration would be huge for them.
* For mana management... It is already okay but doubling the mana talent reward to 10% would be fair (compared to what others have). That would further help. Also, clearcasting giving 100% bonus for 1 spell, not 40% for 2 helps reaching full spirit mana regen.

Enh...
People tend to ignore that TWOW enh is light years above Vanilla enh. It can use SS in raids, have a discount in lightning shield, has a watered-down bloodlust. But yeah, very lackluster damage-wise. Moving +hit talent to enh tree, adding them a weapon skill talent for 2h maces and giving them 1 more melee talent should be enough.

[Azuredrak0]

Obviously the TWoW devs were looking into enhancing the Hunter in close range combat with Wolf Form. I'm thinking about those hunters that try to imitate the iconic Rexxar, an orc hunter. This, however, didn't quite scale so well and it's definitely sub-par going into later gearing. Melee hunter is definitely a meme, but potential is there with very few small changes that shouldn't impact PvP much.

A few subtle suggestions -
Cooldown - simple allowance of using Rapid Shots cooldown to also enhance melee attack speed would grant a powerful cooldown ability

Cleave - allowing the traps to be placed in combat would help bridge lack of cleave functionality for hunter in close range. Additionally improving the damage of traps could help with scaling. Can be linked to Wolf Form and/or gated by talents. There are a number of Trap-specific talents in Survival tree that are rarely used.

Raid Utility - allowing Wolf Form to produce some form of raid or group buff would earn melee or close range hunters a raid utility spot (possibly). This can take form of a group Haste buff, or possibly a melee +hit buff, or even the TBC version of Expose Weakness (https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=34503/expose-weakness) that can be used in melee. All of these can be locked behind requirement to be in Wolf Form and/or gated by a talent tree.

Respectfully,
Close combat Hunter enthusiast

[Akos1896]

Obviously the TWoW devs were looking into enhancing the Hunter in close range combat with Wolf Form. I'm thinking about those hunters that try to imitate the iconic Rexxar, an orc hunter. This, however, didn't quite scale so well and it's definitely sub-par going into later gearing. Melee hunter is definitely a meme, but potential is there with very few small changes that shouldn't impact PvP much.

A few subtle suggestions -
Cooldown - simple allowance of using Rapid Shots cooldown to also enhance melee attack speed would grant a powerful cooldown ability

Cleave - allowing the traps to be placed in combat would help bridge lack of cleave functionality for hunter in close range. Additionally improving the damage of traps could help with scaling. Can be linked to Wolf Form and/or gated by talents. There are a number of Trap-specific talents in Survival tree that are rarely used.

Raid Utility - allowing Wolf Form to produce some form of raid or group buff would earn melee or close range hunters a raid utility spot (possibly). This can take form of a group Haste buff, or possibly a melee +hit buff, or even the TBC version of Expose Weakness (https://www.wowhead.com/tbc/spell=34503/expose-weakness) that can be used in melee. All of these can be locked behind requirement to be in Wolf Form and/or gated by a talent tree.

Respectfully,
Close combat Hunter enthusiast

Hey!
I've always wanted to ask something from a melee hunter fan. Would wyvern sting work better as a melee ability with the same effect (removing only out of combat clause).
I was thinking if that + aspect of the wolf melee buff + some help with traps would make the build viable/fun

[Heimdallr]

My Few cents on skills and talents:

It would be cool to have more skills where we lack them, for example, If I would like to play an arcane moon related druid...I just go moonfire>starfire>repeat. Throw more Lunar related skills so that druid could completely dump non arcane skills. How would nature work then? well...we could add some wind related skills, spore/tree related...lots of options to grow here instead of copy-paste future expansions.

Same would be with Arcane mage - I love the concept but...that's one arcane spell in PVE single target rotation. I don't mind him being completely not pve related and push him towards pvp, but that would also be fun only if we would get more skills, for example a spell to repeat previous spell instantly or reset all dots on target to full time, swap places, lock someone in place, increase armor/dodge...you know, Arcane stuff, that is usually something more secret buff/debuff in games and tabletops than simply spells doing dmg. But besides that it would be grand to have something more added into rotation than just one dmg spell and eventually arcane explo.

Talents are the same, Vanilla+ has cool talents, but they on the other hand did it too far, so having more talents supporting certain playstyles would be dope - for example of a warrior...I thought I would be a real tank with a shield and...that prot specc is...not feeling right. I don't feel as that supreme armored shielded guy, I feel like I wanna tank in other specs.

Finally, a concept - Remember that if possible, we could have more talents/skills than we need, but they would change the concept slightly, for example - While being a nature DMG based druid, you could instead of wraths, thorns and that kind of visual things, have wind spells that could do the same, or differ in numbers and CD only(because at some point we have to end with all unique ideas and spells would simply repeat themselves) but what's the point here - as long as we got different visuals and concepts, we got more choices and fun builds to do - Swarm related druid/moon/trees and spores/wind(not sure what else was in warcraft)

shamans having actually more than 2-3 earth related spells etc.

[Akos1896]

I have to deny this regarding arcane mage.
TWOW changes them and now they are an extremely valuable utility PVE class.
In our guild we run 2 with slightly different build.
The core concept of arcane mage in TWOW is mana regeneration. If they go deeply into spirit and toss them in a team with a druid and 3 mana users, those mana users will rarely get oom. Innervate the arcane mage every now and then and the whole party is almost at full mana.
At least if you really go deep into spirit regen with your items - this is what one of our arcane mage does.
The other one does a more DPS-oriented build with less mana regen. Still a good party utility while also having a decent DPS. Regarding exact rotation I have no idea.

[Heimdallr]

I have to deny this regarding arcane mage.
TWOW changes them and now they are an extremely valuable utility PVE class.
In our guild we run 2 with slightly different build.
The core concept of arcane mage in TWOW is mana regeneration. If they go deeply into spirit and toss them in a team with a druid and 3 mana users, those mana users will rarely get oom. Innervate the arcane mage every now and then and the whole party is almost at full mana.
At least if you really go deep into spirit regen with your items - this is what one of our arcane mage does.
The other one does a more DPS-oriented build with less mana regen. Still a good party utility while also having a decent DPS. Regarding exact rotation I have no idea.

I love the idea of that utility and I absolutely not deny it. As stated in my post it would be fine by me to make it even more utility than just another pure dps class, however it would be better imho to give him more dps spells so when doing a pve or pvp, it would rely on more than one arcane dps spell. I know that you can just use other spells...but where's the fun in being pure arcane and...using other sources of dmg? 2-3 more spells so he would actually have a full arcane rotation to do instead of pushing 1111111 or mixing him up with other spell sources, and that would be grand

[Akos1896]

I'd need to ask one of those arcane mages in my guild. One of them RPs so hard that he only has arcane spells (frostbolt lvl 2 is still untouched at class trainer for example) and talents.
But personally I don't know what kind of rotation he's using.

[Heimdallr]

I'd need to ask one of those arcane mages in my guild. One of them RPs so hard that he only has arcane spells (frostbolt lvl 2 is still untouched at class trainer for example) and talents.
But personally I don't know what kind of rotation he's using.

I can tell you, he either does arcane missiles till the end, or mixes them with other spells from fire/frost, because there is literally just one arcane DMG spell for single target and it is arcane missiles.