Did Night Elves really descend from Trolls? A deeper look

[Calevarn]

If you have even a marginal knowledge of the night elves, it is probable you've heard of this tale before.

It's a story as old as the hills, repeated and argued to death and beyond for nearly two decades, one that was effectively ended in 2011, during Cataclysm, when Blizzard published the second volume of World of Warcraft: The Magazine, which in no ambiguous terms clarified that the night elves did in fact descend from the dark trolls, with this lovely drawing:



But Turtle WoW with its wonderful magic takes us back in time to 2004, long before any magazine, so you might be wondering: do the night elves still descend from trolls? The answer is...not quite sure!

With this thread I'll provide two of the most relevant sources valid to Turtle I could find on the argument. The goal of this post is to inform everyone of how someone from back in the day may have come to read this topic, but also to prevent any misconceptions that may be caused by mistakenly confusing new material for the original.

The Official Race Description

Our first entry is all the way back from 2002, and was used as the official race description for night elves on the battle.net website until Cataclysm was released in 2010. This is what anyone who wanted to learn more about night elves first read when opening their page there.

The reclusive Night Elves were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft. These shadowy, immortal beings were the first to study magic and let it loose throughout the world nearly ten thousand years before Warcraft I.

(Full text: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The_Wo ... ight_Elves)

Point

• This passage seems to give a pretty exhaustive and definitive answer. The night elves were the first race in the world, so they could not have descended from trolls.

Counter-arguments

• The wording in the passage may be debatable. 'The first race' could be a confusing expression for some. According to the Warcraft III manual, the night elves did not truly come to be until they found the Well of Eternity, and the Well of Eternity didn't exist until the Ordering of Azeroth, and by the time of the Ordering of Azeroth, Titans and Old Gods and some of their creations already existed. Technically speaking, they would therefore not be the first, unless the text was referring to them being the first among the other playable races.
  
  However, the manual also states that before finding the Well of Eternity, the night elves existed as a 'tribe of primitive, nocturnal humanoids'. It is unclear what these primitive elves looked like, or if they were elves at all, and which point of their origin 'awakening' refers to. The official race description is from an introductory page intended for new players, the overview is intentionally brief, so many details with other sources may not neatly fit.

• All other sources, some which will be presented below, never adhere to the categorical wording of this description, casting some doubt over its reliability.

The Troll Compendium

This second entry is from a few years after the first, from about 2006 at the earliest I can find on waybackmachine, but still within the constrains of vanilla.

Little is known about the night elves' precise origins, for their race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to prove or invalidate this theory. [...]

Certainly many trolls do believe that the humanoids who developed into the night elf race were trolls. The theory does have some credibility, for there is at least a superficial physical resemblance between trolls and night elves. Furthermore, the troll race dominated much of ancient Kalimdor--the only continent on Azeroth before the Great Sundering--long before the night elves came into power. [...]

The trolls hated the night elves--a sentiment that persists to this day--and may have wished to marginalize the night elf race and its accomplishments. Also, attributing the night elf race with a troll heritage likely helped the trolls come to terms with their own shocking defeat.

Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will remain a matter of contention for years to come.

(Full text: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Troll_ ... t_Elves%3F)

Point

• This passage is actively encouraging the reader to engage in speculation, unlike the first which provides a straight answer. In other words, Blizzard is telling us one thing, but also inviting us to dispute it and refute definitive answers.

Counter-arguments

• The Troll Compendium makes two points for its argument:
  
  1. The night elves look somewhat like the trolls
  
  2. The trolls say that the night elves descended from them.
  
  Admittedly, neither of these make a very strong argument. A similar appearance doesn't necessarily suggest anything. After all, humans look somewhat similar to high elves and dwarves, who also look loosely similar to gnomes and monkeys and yeti.
  
  The second one, as acknowledged by the text itself, could be subject to bias. But beyond that, there is a glaring logical flaw in the fact this is referring to events that happened 10,000 years ago. To put it into perspective, ten thousand years ago most of our ancestors in the real world were still dwelling in caves, it was approximately 5,000 years before the Bronze Age, but we're meant to believe that the trolls somehow preserved this knowledge, as well as their hatred for the night elves, for countless generations.
  
  This is dubious to say the least, and doesn't follow any credible logic, considering most trolls have lived in tribal societies on the opposite side of the world and nowhere close to the night elves to maintain a feud or keep such an impeccable record of history over a period of time this large.

(A reference of this attitude between the Darkspear and the night elves also appears in-game in Alterac Valley, but it makes as little sense there as it does on the Compendium, for the same reasons)

Conclusion

By the end of this you've seen that the answer to the title's question isn't as clear-cut in Classic as it is on Retail.

Although at least one source gives a clear answer to the question, Blizzard also suggests an alternative, contradictory point of view, without providing a definitive answer, preferring instead to leave it ambiguous for the sake of player speculation.

It is likely that the writers were toying with different ideas and weren't sure themselves.

In any case, I hope I've been able to present the state of affairs as it is relevant to Turtle, so we can all have a better idea of what the story looked like compared to today.

[Mativh]

Good observation. I personally couldn't care less about the retcons done by Activision-Blizzard or anyone else who acquires the copyrights in the future.
Warcraft was made by certain people, and almost all left the company by now.
Activision changed the story, saying that elves are basically trolls whose evolution got accelerated by the well of eternity, they might as well have said that the elves are dwarves who lost their mining pick and were forced to live in the forest subsisting on magical berries that captured moonlight and transformed them into elves, or that elves are descendant of humans that interbred with an alien race that invaded azeroth at one point but died out because they didn't tolerate sunlight.
You get my point.

Turtle WoW is expanding on pre-activision WoWs lore, and so far has been respecting the original mindset and design philosophy of the game, so for me they have more authority than Activision does.

Originally the Night Elves were descendant of the Dark Elves, an enigmatic race. There are bits of lore about it in Darkshore. Dark Elves "awakened" at one point, which is a metaphor for the vague line that is crossed when hominids became human in real life. The Night Elves are considered to be the first intelligent humanoid lifeform, in the way we understand intelligence as a capacity to reason and form abstract thoughts to a greater extend than other animal species.
Warcrafts lore is heavily inspired by J.R.R Tolkien, which is inspired by Norse mythology, where elves are a mysterious ancient wise and fair race, and Warcraft drew on those concepts. Orcs in LotR are elves that got twisted and devolved with dark magic, that's why they have pointy ears. Orcs in Warcraft are a separate race from another planet (a copy of Warhammers orcs) but they preserved the pointy ears, and Trolls are in Warcraft the "orcs" of Azeroth, and a savage race that emerged after the dark elves.
The Night Elves are the oldest race, an ancient civilization, wise and enigmatic (from the point of view of humans).

[Nightowl]

Night Elves descended from Drow of D&D. Even thought this is a joke it does also carry truth. Blizzard was never really original as there wasn't a single idea in their setting that was their own. Their strength lied in taking ideas of other and refining them towards mainstream appeal. Night elves was essentially a less edgy Drow without all the sexual backstabby matriarchy that worshipped a fallen Goddess.

As for the Troll>Night Elf conundrum. I personally view it as an obvious homage to the mainstream altar of "Out of Africa" theory. They took a dominant mainstream narrative and converted it into WoW's story in a form of subtle propaganda. No longer were they cool elves who were originally implied to be possibly hailing from Emerald Dream, nay, they were a different breed of troll because that some of us will subconciously accept what they desperately want us to accept. And hey, maybe they're right but I'd like to reserve all the judgement till we're 100% sure, and we really aren't. Recently there have been several discoveries that have moved the origin of humans several thousand years earlier than African Theory. Some have even postulated that humans are far older than 200k years, but these people are sadly silenced by the watchful gatekeepers of discourse.

To make my point more clear, I'd like to introduce a personal anecdote of mine. I've been involved in creative outlets and had the displeasure of coming face to face with a certain type of personality that wishes to push a certain type of narrative. And like implied in parapgraph above, lets just say that there are certain people who wish for you think what they want you to think, and they will stop at nothing by spreading their ideas - games, music, education, entertainment. It is what it is unfortunately. So WoW is not exempt of this reality, and it being THE FACE of MMO gaming for the longest time made it the unfortunate victim.

P.S: To this day I have absolutely no idea how Blizzard managed to get away with the blatant ripoff of Tieflings when they retconned original Draenei. But that's another discussion.

[Totuga]

33

[Goof]

In regards to your points and counter-arguments, you kinda left out the fact that the Troll Compendium has multiple "pages" to it, one of which mentions a timeframe from a definitive PoV:
Troll Compendium: Early Troll Civilization

About 16,000 years ago, trolls lorded over much of ancient Kalimdor, which was the only continent on Azeroth at the time.

Meanwhile, the example you provided from the official race description:

The reclusive Night Elves were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft. These shadowy, immortal beings were the first to study magic and let it loose throughout the world nearly ten thousand years before Warcraft I.

Specifically mentions the elves were the first to study magic "nearly ten thousand years ago" and the way it's worded makes it sound like they're both a race that is ~10,000 years old and that the use of magic is also ~10,000 years old (which is subject to personal interpretation of course, the wording could be clearer), however:

Troll Compendium: Other Trolls - Zandalar Tribe

Once part of ancient Kalimdor, Zandalar is the birthplace of troll civilization, and, as such, strictly neutral territory for trolls. When the first Well of Eternity imploded, a hole was punched through Kalimdor. Deep fissures appeared in the continent, and the Zandalari hastily cast strong protective spells to protective their home from destruction. Even so, they could not shield the rest of the continent from widespread upheaval. The ground immediately beyond the Zandalari's shield was drawn underwater when Kalimdor broke into separate landmasses. When at last the Sundering was over, the Zandalari saw that their home had become an island.

This passage describes some incredibly powerful use of magic which clashes with the night elves' racial description, magic that not even the elves at the time could mirror in any part of their vast empire as none of it survived to the degree the Zandalari did, not exactly something you learn in the span of a few years if trolls supposedly came after elves, so the timeline is a bit jank in that regard.

Because of this I've always had the notion that the Zandalari—due to being a civilisation built by primarily scholars and historians—have always had better magic users in general than the Kaldorei did (bar some individual exceptions like Azshara, I'm talking in general, the average mage the respective empire could mobilize), but with the Kaldorei being juiced up by the Well of Eternity there was no chance for anyone to stand against them and thus the Zandalari's superior documentation—attained from having been around for far longer—on magic was of little use. Even pygmies would achieve world domination if they bathed in the Well of Eternity for a few centuries, it's OP.

But nonetheless, if you want a definitive answer for who came first in Turtle WoW-era lore, then it's as simple as looking to the Ask CDev series where Chris Metzen and Alex Afrasiabi answered questions about lore, and in the Ask CDev Answers - Round 2, this question popped up:

Q:

What races were on Azeroth before the coming of the titans?

A:

Besides the elementals, the only known sentient races on Azeroth when the titans' forces arrived to subdue the Old Gods were the trolls, the race known as "faceless ones," and the aqir. Due to the Old Gods' war against the titans, as well as the extensive terraforming that followed the war's conclusion, records of what races existed before even the Old Gods' arrival have likely been lost forever.

There ya go, at one point, trolls officially predated the Titans' arrival on Azeroth as well as the "Ordering of Azeroth" and thus were not a result of the Well of Eternity accelerating evolution as later lore was retconned to with the release of World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1.

And the earliest date of something made by the Old Gods is the contents of the Mosh'Ogg Bounty which appears to have been made by the Old Gods ~150,000 years ago, so I guess the OG trolls started vibing on Azeroth something like 17,000 - 150,000 years ago. :kekw:

So the trolls were officially the only sentient race at one point; no elves, no tauren, etc. And this was according to both Chris Metzen and Alex Afrasiabi, the two original lore writers. Thus the trolls were first—whether night elves descended from them or not.

I personally think either way is cool, I just think the issue with Blizzard's portrayal of elves descending from trolls was done in too quick of a timespan, their modern timeline is very fucky-wucky if I may say so myself. A lot of it feels so rushed and illogical to me.

But I also really enjoy the idea of elves and trolls sharing a common ancestor as opposed to being directly related, thus explaining their many similarities and differences:

• Perhaps their ancestor species had 4 fingers, explaining why the elves' lifestyle promoted the evolution of five smaller but nimble fingers while the trolls' lifestyle promoted the evolution of three larger but much stronger fingers.

• Perhaps their ancestral species were long-lived and were able to regenerate fingers and smaller wounds rapidly, which the elves' evolution completely discarded regeneration to maximise their lifespan while trolls did the opposite, discarding an incredibly long lifespan for the ability to instead regenerate entire arms, legs and making decapitation the only safe way to know whether a troll is dead or not rather than just fingers and toes.

[Totuga]

Ask CDdev round 2 happened in 2011 if memory serves.

So they happened after blizzard was bought by Activision.

Turtle wow is based on Blizzard's WoW afaik. Not Tencent's or Microsoft's.

Basing our lore in what two huge retconers, who can sell their endorsement to the highest bidder, won't do us or the lore any favors.

Metzen stayed in blizzard until 2016 or 2018 (can't remember exactly), so by that logic, we should respect the "lore" of every expansion up till that point.

Yes, that includes WoD. The book "war crimes", the time traveling of Garrosh, and Thrall executing his opponent through magic during Mak'gora.

Edit in case it wasn't clear: I'm implying that we should not treat anything made or said by blizzard since TBC's pre-patch as canon.

[Calevarn]

Specifically mentions the elves were the first to study magic "nearly ten thousand years ago" and the way it's worded makes it sound like they're both a race that is ~10,000 years old and that the use of magic is also ~10,000 years old (which is subject to personal interpretation of course, the wording could be clearer)

I agree with your last point, it is in fact very brief and vague, but if I might elaborate on your interpretation, the Warcraft III manual which precedes the official race description by only a few years, states that both Illidan and Malfurion are 15,032 years old, which would place the origins of the night elves at least several hundred, if not thousands of years before the 15k year mark (Since by then the night elves already had a sprawling Empire as mentioned further on).

These birth years are retconned in the War of the Ancients trilogy that places Illidan, Malfurion and Tyrande all around similar birth years near the 10k year mark, but again night elf civilisation in that period is portrayed as incredibly advanced, so what the official race description is saying, to my own interpretation, is that the night elves let magic loose through the world 10k years ago, rather than them having accomplished everything from their birth, to their rise, to their downfall in the 10k year mark. Which doesn't seem very plausible.

Furthermore, the War of the Ancients trilogy also gives us this tidbit of information:

“Mistress Tyrande, I am Dath'Remar Sunstrider,” the Highborne returned, not with a little pride. “Twentieth generation to serve the throne…”

(The Sundering, page 80)

Now, considering elves live for many thousands of years, 5k at the oldest mentioned (or 2k according to the RPG), the separation between generations would be enormous. By multiplying those years by the number of generations, it would suggest that House Sunstrider, and therefore the night elves, might have existed as far back as 100,000 years ago, serving a throne no less. More conservative estimates considering elves can always die of anything beyond old age could also place that around 60k to 50k or far lower. Or perhaps their generations work differently than we understand, or perhaps Dath'Remar is simply lying or is misinformed on how old his house really is.

Nevertheless, the point is that the story is indicating that the night elves are already really ancient by the time of the Sundering.

This passage describes some incredibly powerful use of magic which clashes with the night elves' racial description

Perhaps not necessarily. 'Letting magic loose through the world' might not mean that along with the elves, no-one else knew of magic before then. It says they were the first to study it, not the only ones to wield it.

There's also the possibility that the Zandalari used other forms of magic, which the official race description doesn't account for either in its vague language.

Obviously we now know that even troggs can become shamans, and that's its own form of magic, which wouldn't need any sort of elven intervention.

All of this aside, it is clear that the Troll Compendium has absolutely no regard for the continuity established by the official race description or other sources. It is contradictory, whether this is in a deliberate attempt to retcon or a result of miscommunication or inattentiveness like is often the case with Blizzard authors we can't know and perhaps doesn't really matter, but it is not surprising in the event that more contradictions appear.

But nonetheless, if you want a definitive answer for who came first in Turtle WoW-era lore, then it's as simple as looking to the Ask CDev series where Chris Metzen and Alex Afrasiabi answered questions about lore, and in the Ask CDev Answers - Round 2, this question popped up:

As mentioned by Totuga, I'm afraid you got your dates a little confused. This Ask CDev took place in 2011, that is WAY beyond Turtle WoW-era lore, which ends in 2006, so we can't take this into consideration.

The previous question from this very same Ask CDev, was answered with the response that officially decanonised the RPG, which again happened in 2011 as recorded by wowpedia here. (Scroll down to the post by Bashiok)

A lot of the other questions and answers from that Ask CDev also talk about later lore from WotLK and TBC, so again, definitely not from 2006. You can find the full list here.

Ultimately though, I want to repeat that my goal isn't to say that one source is right and all the other ones are wrong, or that there can only be one correct interpretation. I think we can all admit that the sources we do have on hand tend to often be superficial, vague or inconsistent, leaving us to make heads or tails of a rather messy tangle of information, which might not even have any heads or tails by the end.

So, my aim is for people to be aware that when addressing the question 'where did night elves come from' the answer is perhaps unclear, something up for debate even with the Troll Compendium, rather than the definitive 'they came from dark trolls' as many others seem to get confused with due to later lore.

As long as I achieve that, and we have fun weighing ideas, I'm happy

[Exelartz]

Wonder if anyone still reads it. personally once they retconned night elven lore the game story and lore went down hill as it became a trend. metzen created this trend of retconning wows lore/story that every writer after him abused.

while during the rts W3 it mentions The reclusive Night Elves were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft which would mean they were the first or first created. they just look like taller purple humans nothing like trolls.
cant remember were i read it but some time during W3 might have been from the website back then i read that elune created them from nothing in her image letting them spring from some great power onto azeroth, something like that years ago.
adding science fiction tropes to wow has ultimately harmed warcraft and the multiple writers throughout the years have made it worse

The RTS story and lore made me love the Warcraft Universe but the MMO story and lore made me hate it

[Thelleria]

I'd personally perfer it if the Elves and Trolls are different races with no connection. That Night Elves are decendence from Trolls is something that was made up later on and a change I never liked.

[Harkus]

Night elves coming from trolls was Cata shit lore as has been mentioned, so feel free to ignore it. Not everything needs to be connected or explained.

[Exelartz]

I'd personally perfer it if the Elves and Trolls are different races with no connection. That Night Elves are decendence from Trolls is something that was made up later on and a change I never liked.

i ignore it and it seem turtle wow lore does too

[Bellybutton]

[Qualopec]

Night elves coming from trolls was Cata shit lore as has been mentioned, so feel free to ignore it. Not everything needs to be connected or explained.

No, it was not "cata shit lore" it was back in Vanilla, via books scattered around the world.

https://www.wowhead.com/object=175854/the-twin-empires#

With the insectoids driven into exile, the twin troll empires returned to business as usual. Despite their great victory, neither civilization expanded much farther than their original boundaries. However, ancient texts speak of a small faction of trolls that broke off from the Amani Empire and founded their own colony in the heart of the dark continent.
There, these brave pioneers discovered the cosmic Well of Eternity which transformed them into beings of immense power. Some legends suggest that these adventurous trolls were the first night elves, though this theory has never been proven.

And you have additionally the pvp quests in Alterac Valley :

Apparently even Darkspears knows it as a fact:

https://www.wowhead.com/classic/quest=7 ... -darkspear

<Najak snarls.>

Before the night elves existed there was troll. It was from troll that the night elves came.

Their mutinous attacks against my people will not be tolerated. Staghelm seeks to wipe us out - to leave no trace of those that bore him and his ilk. It will not happen!

For every night elf that you slay and decapitate, Najak will grant you favor amongst the Darkspear. Word of your deeds will be spread across Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms. Go now and serve the Darkspear!

While to Night elves it is a herecy, but they DID hear of it :


https://www.wowhead.com/classic/quest=7 ... ms-requiem

Staghelm has given the order. All trolls on the field of battle must be exterminated. Their preposterous claims of birthing night elves must be met with force and due prejudice.

Slay them and return to me with their mojo. To reiterate: I want you to steal their mojo.

Exterminate them all? Pretty harsh for supposed fallacy. I'd think the trolls hit nail on the head if this is the response. And from the Darkspear it shows that Night elves started it. Trolls said their bit, and nelves went ape.


These are the threads from Vanilla showing that Trolls were ancestors of nelves. They were not directly telling you deffinietly that. You could say that the pvp quest is typical NPC bias, and hard to say which one is tue, and the first clue is labeled as a theory, but come on.
If we take that it's Pre-Chronicles retcon, then trolls and tauren predate titan arrival.

Heck even in Pandaria Lorewaler Cho said

"Your ancestry dates back to the dawn of the world"

So the "first race to awaken" that OP clings to is irrelevant since Vanilla.


Trolls as a specie is older than nelves. And they do have smilar physique. It's perfectly reasonable that trolls got mutated by the WoE and got turned into nelves. So I fail to see why are players upset over it. In the end WoW trolls is the coolest race in game the question should be - why wouldn't you want to be related to them?

And well nelves are a race that is mutating in very extreme ways to helves to naga to stayr. Trolls change to only adapt to environment. So I always assumed that it's the WoE that broke their genetics in unusual way.
And ever since they look more and more human. yaiks.

[Thelleria]

Well a singel in universe books and oppinions of npc's can hardly be considered had evidence. It is most likly bias.

Byside the official race descrition stated otherwise. And I perfer my characters not to be in any way related to trolls at all.

[Qualopec]

It was evidence that the relationship between troll and nelves WAS set in Vanilla. So what came later was a deffinite confirmation what was already provided in vanilla.

Ofc elves can deny it and act as if it's not true as part of their roleplay and it's perfectly fine to act like that in-character. But players shouldn't deny it as a meta knowledge.

[Springboards]

both are knife eared vermin

[Calevarn]

I'd like to redirect everyone to my conclusion once again:

Conclusion

By the end of this you've seen that the answer to the title's question isn't as clear-cut in Classic as it is on Retail.

Although at least one source gives a clear answer to the question, Blizzard also suggests an alternative, contradictory point of view, without providing a definitive answer, preferring instead to leave it ambiguous for the sake of player speculation.

It is likely that the writers were toying with different ideas and weren't sure themselves.

The point being made wasn't that one interpretation is more correct than the other, but rather that by the time of vanilla there are a number of contradictory sources, leaving the answer unclear.

You can totally believe elves were the first to awaken and you'd be backed up by the official race description, or you can totally believe they descend from trolls, as it's also suggested.

Or you can simply accept we don't know for certain because the material itself is uncertain.

The goal of this thread was to present the ambiguity of this topic.

So the "first race to awaken" that OP clings to is irrelevant since Vanilla.

This seems a little unfair.

I'm pretty sure I also provided counter-arguments for that source as well as opposed citations that contradict it (some of which you have also posted yourself!).

But on what grounds would it be irrelevant? It's the info page for night elves that was used on the official website from 2002 to 2010. It's no less canon than any other official source relevant to Classic.

But players shouldn't deny it as a meta knowledge.

Curious! Because you do seem to be in the process of denying one side of that meta knowledge in favour of another in-universe interpretation.

[Qualopec]

You can totally believe elves were the first to awaken and you'd be backed up by the official race description, or you can totally believe they descend from trolls, as it's also suggested.

So the "first race to awaken" that OP clings to is irrelevant since Vanilla.

This seems a little unfair.

No it isn't. I provided source from Vanilla WoW - which are Lore books scattered around Azeroth. And they always start with Trolls that they lorded the world before elves came, and there was another book that said that a splinter group from Amani went to the heart of Kalimdor and later nelves came out of it. That direction was set in stone since very version you play as, so Vanilla WoW.

I'm pretty sure I also provided counter-arguments for that source as well as opposed citations that contradict it (some of which you have also posted yourself!).

Not really. I prosted WoW book, and 2 pvp quests. While you can argue that pvp quest is pure NPC bias, WoW books are meant to be factual within the universe. If that was not the case then we could argue the lore of every other WoW book if that is accurate as well.

Curious! Because you do seem to be in the process of denying one side of that meta knowledge in favour of another in-universe interpretation.

I am not denying anything. We all know the meta knowledge. And I am perfectly fine with elves in-universe denying this knowledge, their proud nature would never allow for it. But for players refusing it where since Vanilla it is a thing is imo strange. True that it's not in your nose 100% confirmed, and leaves the stuff to speculate, but where elves could possibly come from? Kobolds? Nelves don't really have anything set in stone either regarding their origins, and if they were retconned that Trolls predate them, then I have no idea why do you cling to outdated WC3 manual.

[Calevarn]

Not really.

I literally posted that same PvP quest in my opening post though...

I am not denying anything.

You say this, but you seem really keen on disregarding opposing sources;

then I have no idea why do you cling to outdated WC3 manual.

Again, again, I reiterate, it's the official race description for World of Warcraft which was displayed on the battle.net website from 2002 to 2010.

From 2002, to 2010. It's not from the WC3 manual, it's not outdated, in fact the same race description was re-used for both TBC and WotLK. It's not only not outdated, it lasted well beyond vanilla!

But that doesn't matter, after all we're only discussing content relevant to Classic.

And they always start with Trolls that they lorded the world before elves came, and there was another book that said that a splinter group from Amani went to the heart of Kalimdor and later nelves came out of it.

Yes, I know, I understand.

Allow me to underline:

Some legends suggest that these adventurous trolls were the first Night Elves, though this theory has never been proven.

Source: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Twin_Empires

Vanilla theorises that this might be the case, it doesn't outright state it as a fact (as Cataclysm does).

And there are elements of contradiction. Because the official night elf race description contradicts this with "the night elves are the first race to awaken".

The Sundering by Richard A. Knaak also alludes to a timeline in which elves are far older than the trolls stated in this in-game book (an Elven dynasty of twenty generations before the War of the Ancients), thereby also making any claim of ancestry impossible.

The timeline of troll rule is possibly further contradicted by the WC3 manual as well. Several night elf characters are over 15k years old and it's hard to imagine that the entirety of Kaldorei civilisation went from tribal trolls fighting the Aqir to elves to empire in the comparatively brief span of 968 years. In fact by the time of their births, 15k years ago, the manual states that 'endless ages' of Elven rule had already lapsed. Meaning, hilariously, that the night elves would be endlessly older than the trolls who first appeared 'only' 16k years ago.

However, the official Troll Compendium, the Twin Empires in-game book, Alterac Valley quests all float around the idea that indeed, the elves may descend from trolls.

That doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong though, merely that sources disagree and the matter is left unclear, as is often the case in a franchise with as many writers as Warcraft. If we agree on this, we don't really need to take it any further.

If you would like my opinion on this, what I think happened is that back when the older lore was published around 2002, Metzen hadn't made up his mind on night elf origins quite yet.

Then, later in vanilla's development, Metzen, infamous for not being the most attentive of authors, became inspired with the idea that trolls might just be the ancestors of all elves and pushed it through while overlooking what lore existed beforehand that contradicted him.

I mostly infer this from his own comment on retcons after the 'Draenei controversy':

Sometimes you need to expand certain ideas or retcon whole sections of continuity to broaden the scope and accessibility of your setting. There are a good number of these types of situations already (like totally revising our timeline, suggesting trolls were the progenitors of all elven subspecies, etc. – there’s a hundred other examples). To make an omelet, ya need to break a few eggs, and WoW’s one big omelet.

Source: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Metzen_on_lore

But who knows for sure, really? There are few writers messier or clumsier than Metzen.

[Qualopec]

You say this, but you seem really keen on disregarding opposing sources;

Becuase the sources you use are outdated and no longer revelant.

Again, again, I reiterate, it's the official race description for World of Warcraft which was displayed on the battle.net website from 2002 to 2010.

I only recall if from WC3 Manual, do you have archivised version to check it for sure?

And there are elements of contradiction. Because the official night elf race description contradicts this with "the night elves are the first race to awaken".

"Awaken" could be interpreted in many ways as well. Doesn't have to be that they were literally first race on Azeroth, which we know it's not true since Vanilla WoW. And you know that Warcraft developers later confirmed that.

The Sundering by Richard A. Knaak also alludes to a timeline in which elves are far older than the trolls stated in this in-game book (an Elven dynasty of twenty generations before the War of the Ancients), thereby also making any claim of ancestry impossible.

Elven lifespans are all over the place. And to be fair Blizzard did a terrible job on keeping timeframe on when everything started to form. And the early Nelf lore is a total mess that I cannot make sense out of. The Nelven empire came to existnce very quickly and as quickly came to an end. So I fail to see where all these dynasties started, and all these 20 generations could be crammed in, unless OG nelves lived very shorty.

Secondly, War of Ancients book also created another anomaly - if Night elves were familiar with orcs, and Tyrande knew Broxxigar - then why acting so hostile when meeting them again? Why Tyrande refused to cooperate with them until there was no other choice? From her own experience humans and orcs should be a cool bros. And yet she attacked both. Unless she got terrible memory after living for so long?

Then we had Anasterian who was considered ancient, and recently there was introduced a belf - forgot his name, that was around when elves landed on EK, and his parents had to deal with cold, and he held a massive grudge for Malfurion because of that. So he was older than Anasterian and yet he didn't age a bit.
You'd also think that humans came to existance around the time curse of flesh started, but nah, apparently they're also super ancient and existed long before that according to Chronicles.

So there is no denying that it is a massive mess when it comes keeping things cohesive. The lack of attention to details is staggering. And as far as I know neither Rhonin nor Broxigar were ever acknowledged in game for their feats in the book, and Broxx never appeared in game as well.

The timeline of troll rule is possibly further contradicted by the WC3 manual as well. Several night elf characters are over 15k years old and it's hard to imagine that the entirety of Kaldorei civilisation went from tribal trolls fighting the Aqir to elves to empire in the comparatively brief span of 968 years. In fact by the time of their births, 15k years ago, the manual states that 'endless ages' of Elven rule had already lapsed. Meaning, hilariously, that the night elves would be endlessly older than the trolls who first appeared 'only' 16k years ago.

This is what you get wrong. 16k years ago Trolls were already fighting Aquir, that means that Trolls had to establish much sooner. So they're above 16k if we take Classic lore. if we Take BfA Lore and Chronicles, Zul'Dazar being merely 16k is lol indeed. But we're talking about developers who don't care about details like that. For example Zandalar was always established as a mountain region, and yet in BfA we learn that Nazmir was always a swamp and not a result of Cataclysm AND apparently there was a titan facility right in the middle of their land, and Zandalari the scholar/priest society never bothered to research it. So the longer you go the more sloppy things are done, because the narrative has to be pushed. There are LOTS of scenarios like that.
Like apparently Jaina's brother after being dead for over a decade in the open sea, where his ship was set on fire by dragons in second war, has his body preserved in perfect condition. So he could be found in the sea, brought back, brought back to un-life and his plot to be abandoned and going absolutely nowhere.

Then, later in vanilla's development, Metzen, infamous for not being the most attentive of authors, became inspired with the idea that trolls might just be the ancestors of all elves and pushed it through while overlooking what lore existed beforehand that contradicted him.

I mostly infer this from his own comment on retcons after the 'Draenei controversy':

He admitted to Draenei fail, but there is nothing about trolls. And as far as I know it was other developers that confirmed this direction - As was mentioned in post above, as you yourself said that he was inspired by already existing idea and just confirmed it. I think when they originally created nelves they didn't have deffinite ideas about them, as they were meant to be Warcraft version of drow so I could see why they wanted to escape certain overused tropes.

Certain devs surely can push for specific ideas, but sometimes it's a collective decision.

In the end since I saw the saw threads spread in Vanilla, I'll take it and the official statement from developers. I see no reason to challenge it at this point. It's one of these rare occasions when they stick to this decision, and even Chronicles Retcon established trolls as the first native species after Ordering of Azeroth.

But then shouldn't we call faceless ones and insectoids a race too? If we take Chronicles then Black empire was the very first so in the end neither trolls or elves were THE first on Azeroth.

And don't get me wrong I like mysteries, and I prefer the vague information of Vanilla that doesn't directly state the things. But how many years we do live with knowledge that it was confirmed and they didn't budge on this one or made any attempt to retract it?

We all know the answer to the question to the op, and it's positive.

[Calevarn]

I only recall if from WC3 Manual, do you have archivised version to check it for sure?

Sure, here it is.



Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20080108213 ... lves.shtml

As you can see in 2008, the official race description is still using the same wording it used in 2002 and every year up until 2010 when the website was overhauled in sight of Cataclysm's release.

Therefore, again, not outdated.

And you know that Warcraft developers later confirmed that.

Yes, but bear with me here and try to understand there's a distinction. It was only in Cata Blizzard unequivocally declared elves descend from trolls. Which is why World of Warcraft: The Magazine was such a big deal when it was released in 2011.

Elves descending from trolls was no longer a suggestion, a theory or an allusion, it was hard canon.

This isn't the case in vanilla.

And the early Nelf lore is a total mess that I cannot make sense out of.

Lucky you! I cannot make sense of the entire timeline, there's numbers all over the place.

So I fail to see where all these dynasties started, and all these 20 generations could be crammed in

Of course you don't, because it's impossible if you accept the timeline established by the in-game books.

Try and imagine that the elves could be older than those 16k years, and suddenly it makes sense.

Because you see, it's highly likely that the WotA novels had already been written before Metzen came up with the troll ancestry lore, hence it doesn't fit neatly. Numbers were thrown around without regard.

As for night elf age, the Warcraft encyclopaedia states:

Thus, all elves are now mortal and have comparable lifespans that can extend as long as several thousand years.

Source: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Warcr ... and_Trolls

Several means 'more than two'. Lowest number we can assume would therefore be three. 3 thousand years x 20 generations = 60k years, though the wc3 manual shows there were elves who lived 5k before the Sundering. Being generous we could lower that to 50k or even 40k and it would still be comfortably above 16k.

This is what you get wrong. 16k years ago Trolls were already fighting Aquir, that means that Trolls had to establish much sooner. So they're above 16k if we take Classic lore.

Again, bear with me, but the Twin Empires makes the assertion that 16k is 'long before the night elves' and uses that premise as a basis to claim the trolls could be the ancestors of the elves.

If the elves are older than 16k, that is an obvious impossibility.

Which goes back to the point that the whole timeline is a tangled, confusing mess. Despite the fact that the Sundering was released in 2005 and the Twin Empires book was part of the original vanilla in 2004. On top of this, if we accept that retcons operate by recency bias, meaning 'the latest source overtakes the older one', then the Sundering novel would also make the Twin Empires in-game book outdated by virtue of having been published later.

Only to then be retconned yet again by the Troll Compendium which roughly repeats the content of the Twin Empires.

Confusing? Very confusing! Blizzard and consistency are like water and oil.

The WotA novels also establish a shared blood link with the Demigod Cenarius, rather than any link with trolls (The Well of Eternity, p. 30). Honestly, this also makes the physical resemblance between Cenarius and the night elves much more understandable, rather than dark trolls evolving to look like him seemingly out of pure coincidence.

But I'm not arguing in favour of any of those points. I'd just like to show that the answer to the question at the title of the thread really isn't clear-cut, whether it is a yes or a no. It's messy, and if we agree that it's messy, how can we confidently say 'oh yeah, elves must descend from trolls and there can be no other interpretation'?

He admitted to Draenei fail, but there is nothing about trolls.

Selective reading?

In the quote I posted, he's equating the draenei retcons to his writing of night elf descent from trolls:

Sometimes you need to expand certain ideas or retcon whole sections of continuity to broaden the scope and accessibility of your setting. There are a good number of these types of situations already (like totally revising our timeline, suggesting trolls were the progenitors of all elven subspecies, etc. – there’s a hundred other examples). To make an omelet, ya need to break a few eggs, and WoW’s one big omelet.

Source: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Metzen_on_lore

We all know the answer to the question to the op, and it's positive.

It's interesting you're so adamant on this, while admitting "it's not confirmed". How can you say it's positive if none of the sources themselves are positive?

The sources we have are mostly trolls personally claiming ancestry and articles speculating that they might descend from trolls.

The Troll Compendium, the Warcraft Encyclopaedia, the Twin Empires, the Alterac Valley quests all go under the same tone.

So no, it's not positive, it's definitely unclear and Blizzard encourages it to be unclear back in vanilla.

Source 1, Troll Compendium:

Little is known about the night elves' precise origins, for their race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to prove or invalidate this theory. [...]

The trolls hated the night elves--a sentiment that persists to this day--and may have wished to marginalize the night elf race and its accomplishments. Also, attributing the night elf race with a troll heritage likely helped the trolls come to terms with their own shocking defeat.

Without additional data, there is little point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will remain a matter of contention for years to come.

From: https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Troll_ ... t_Elves%3F

Source 2, Warcraft Encyclopaedia:

Are night elves descended from trolls? The night elf race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to answer this question

From: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Warcr ... and_Trolls

Source 3, the Twin Empires:

There, these brave pioneers discovered the cosmic Well of Eternity which transformed them into beings of immense power. Some legends suggest that these adventurous trolls were the first Night Elves, though this theory has never been proven.

From: https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/The_Twin_Empires

If you're aware of a source that gives a positive answer, by all means please post it, but as far as I can find all the sources are intentionally written as ambiguous.

[Qualopec]

Sure, here it is.



Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20080108213 ... lves.shtml

As you can see in 2008, the official race description is still using the same wording it used in 2002 and every year up until 2010 when the website was overhauled in sight of Cataclysm's release.

Therefore, again, not outdated.

If you put entire line in context, then it was referencing their ability to call the magic. Not being the first race on Azeroth. First race to awaken - to the call of [Arcane] Magic. This is why I challenged you on your interpretation- have you considered that 'awaken' might mean something else?

Try and imagine that the elves could be older than those 16k years, and suddenly it makes sense.

Then when they appeared? Why they only made appearance After Trolls defeated Aquir Wars only to defeat the trolls? Aquir was World-wide threat to everyone.

And we later see nelves fighting merely a splinter group of the quiraji in Silithus and without aid of the Dragons they'd fail.

In case of nelves their origins are extremely muddy and the whole dynasties were never really established. Knaak's book isn't that good of a source because it has plenty of anomalies to begin with. First nelves were established as druidic, then thanks to WoE they expanded into empire and supposedly then established nobility caste. If we take the lifespan of Empire as a bracket where the dynasties could've appear then there is no chance that there were multiple dynasties. Becuase the Empire itself didn't really last long. It quickly rose to power and as quickly collapsed.

Because you see, it's highly likely that the WotA novels had already been written before Metzen came up with the troll ancestry lore, hence it doesn't fit neatly. Numbers were thrown around without regard.

It doesn't fit neatly with WC3 Lore either. On which I elaborated already.

Which goes back to the point that the whole timeline is a tangled, confusing mess. Despite the fact that the Sundering was released in 2005 and the Twin Empires book was part of the original vanilla in 2004. On top of this, if we accept that retcons operate by recency bias, meaning 'the latest source overtakes the older one', then the Sundering novel would also make the Twin Empires in-game book outdated by virtue of having been published later.

There were lots of retcons, like the one that trolls predate titan arrival.

But I'm not arguing in favour of any of those points. I'd just like to show that the answer to the question at the title of the thread really isn't clear-cut, whether it is a yes or a no. It's messy, and if we agree that it's messy, how can we confidently say 'oh yeah, elves must descend from trolls and there can be no other interpretation'?

Have you considered that both answers could be true? That Dark trolls became some twisted experiment in the hands of Elunee? First was the deer then were the trolls?

Selective reading?

Not at all, becuase I elaborated on that as well. Selective quoting AND reading?

It's interesting you're so adamant on this, while admitting "it's not confirmed". How can you say it's positive if none of the sources themselves are positive?

Because In the end it's not our creation. It's Blizzards. And Blizzard decided on that many many many years ago. Me admitting it was nice because it was vague doesn't change that it's one of these rare decisions where Blizzard stick to their choice. Blizzard was adamant, not me.

So no, it's not positive, it's definitely unclear and Blizzard encourages it to be unclear back in vanilla.

Because you know it's positive now. You got deffinite confirmation in Cataclysm. And Cataclysm was 14 years ago and in Vanilla it was already there for us to see. I just find it strange that after so many years some players try to supress this information.

I'd personally prefer if there was bigger attention to detail and keeping timeline clear. And I'd also like if it remained as strongly hinted rumor than super confirmed becuase Ilike mysteries. But not gonna lie, both players and in-game nelves going bonkers over it is rewarding enough.

[Tanasa]

My experience with trolls in turtle is that they live in huts and refuse to drop their quest items.

[Calevarn]

Because you know it's positive now. You got deffinite confirmation in Cataclysm. And Cataclysm was 14 years ago and in Vanilla it was already there for us to see. I just find it strange that after so many years some players try to supress this information.

Nobody is suppressing this information... I acknowledge that Cataclysm confirms the theory in the very first lines of my opening post.

I acknowledge that the theory exists in the second section of my opening post.

But we're not talking about Cataclysm here. We're talking about Classic, and Classic deliberately leaves it foggy.

And I'd also like if it remained as strongly hinted rumor than super confirmed becuase Ilike mysteries.

Well, there you go, welcome to Classic then

[Exelartz]

as someone that played the rts and much prefered the lore then compared to the retconning mess that is the mmo. i much prefer elves NOT being evolved trolls better for fantasy reasons, then adding evolution to a game that at one point was a more fantasy focused game. then to poorly explain every race on azeroth it was dumb

[Dingoman]

No, it was not "cata shit lore"

this is true because cata says so

lmao

[Shapeshifter]

the retconning mess that is the mmo

I mean there were retcons in wc3 as well like muh shamanistic horde bs that metzen pulled out of his behind to add his shitty self-insert and the entire story formula if you will started there

We fight each other
Oh no big evil appears
we must band together
yes don't worry my horde friends we will conveniently forget all the atrocities you have committed
A bunch of essentially inconsequential stuff happens between various characters
Rinse and repeat

Anyway on-topic, the entire elves coming from trolls thing is just bearded drunk manlet propaganda
simple as

[Exelartz]

I mean there were retcons in wc3 as well like muh shamanistic horde bs that metzen pulled out of his behind to add his shitty self-insert and the entire story formula if you will started there

We fight each other
Oh no big evil appears
we must band together
yes don't worry my horde friends we will conveniently forget all the atrocities you have committed
A bunch of essentially inconsequential stuff happens between various characters
Rinse and repeat

Anyway on-topic, the entire elves coming from trolls thing is just bearded drunk manlet propaganda
simple as

fair but its no were as bad as the mmo were he pissed off players and ignored there complaints. he created a trend of retcons that every writer after him abused.
I can't stand Metzen. He's basically the man who kicked the rock down the hill; that rock hits other rocks bigger than it, and they do the same to other rocks till it becomes an avalanche with massive boulders. 

The rocks are the retcons; the other rocks are the trend Metzen started and the many writers that did the same; the avalanche is wow-shit-lore; and the boulders are the poorly written characters. 

[Zahnfee]

new theory all azeroth races developed from the first few landcrabs that went ashore and multiplied with whatever they could find

[Tanasa]

The Makrura master race will reclaim their birthright.

[Zulnam]

If night elves don't descend from trolls then why are they so fugly?

[Tanasa]

The males have two decent faces and the women are stacked across the board. This outnumbers the options for pretty much the entire Horde put together.

I will concede most of the options for the dudes look like someone is squatting and shitting directly in their line of sight and they are not pleased.

[Zeran]

If night elves don't descend from trolls then why are they so fugly?

Implying that trolls are ugly, which is untrue.

So it's a unique Night Elf trait

[Zulnam]

If night elves don't descend from trolls then why are they so fugly?

Implying that trolls are ugly, which is untrue.

So it's a unique Night Elf trait

Original trolls from WC2 were awesome.

WC3 and beyond went with the super skinny budget troll model. You still see some of the old school troll models in the game, here and there as mobs. I wish we could use those. At least they gave us the original WC2 face paint from Berserkers.

[Zeran]

If night elves don't descend from trolls then why are they so fugly?

Implying that trolls are ugly, which is untrue.

So it's a unique Night Elf trait

Original trolls from WC2 were awesome.

WC3 and beyond went with the super skinny budget troll model. You still see some of the old school troll models in the game, here and there as mobs. I wish we could use those. At least they gave us the original WC2 face paint from Berserkers.

WC3 trolls were still badass, and they did backflips and shiet.