What really protection paladin need.

[Invokersama]

Alot of you say that protection paladin miss new taunt to become prefect class but personally i don't really think paladin should get new taunt spell because if they get one they will become superior tank class then warriors.

what i really think paladin need is new range starting damage spell that act kinda like sappers bombs from engineering profession.

and the perfect spell for that is [Avenger's Shield] but not the woltk V more like new V of it, turtle V of it

here my vision of what the spell should be like:



Avenger's Shield
Talent
2 sec cast
range: 30 yd
cooldown: 20 sec
Requires Paladin
Hurls your shield at an enemy target, dealing holy damage ( based on Attack power and Spellpower ) to the target and all Enemies around the target within 5 yds.



with Righteous Fury that increase holy dmg threat, Avenger's Shield will act like taunt both for single target and AoE targets. and fix paladin issue with slow starting threat.

the Avenger's Shield damage will scale based on both Attack power ( 1 dmg = 4 AP ) and spell power ( 1 dmg = 1 SP).

Avenger's Shield can also crit.

Avenger's Shield will be only exclusive for Protection Paladin as talent in their talent tree, replacing Ardant Defender place in talent tree since no one use it XD.


what do you think ? should we get Avenger's Shield instead of taunt ? ( also sorry for my bad eng )

[Bigsmerf]

Yeah, no. Paladin is not going to be "superior tank class then warriors" just because of a taunt. There are multitudes of advantages that warriors have aside from taunting. Also, on top of that, the class has two sorts of pseudo taunts. Challenging shout (I think that's what it's called) and mocking blow. They both force the enemy to attack you for a set amount of time, but it doesn't work exactly like a taunt. Avenger's shield seems like a fun idea, but there's other problems (like a real taunt imagine that a taunt for a tanking class kinda wild innit) that paladin needs fixed before we just add another aoe threat ability.

[Calli]

Just give holy shock to them and get an aoe heal talent for hpals, for example 'consecration heals friendly targets'. Prot palas need a function similar to the mace Hand of Edward the Odd to cast instant holy light on crit which increases survivalability and threat and make them unique from other tank classes. Very easy to implement, everything is already exists, just need to fine tune the numbers.

[Bob022]

Where am I going to get the mana for all those Holy Lights? My mana bar's always stretched thin enough as it is.

The existing taunt is obviously designed to be able to do the job when necessary in specific encounters that require it, whilst being inferior to warrior/druid taunt otherwise. Since that's the intent, I don't ask for it to be put on an equal footing with theirs. The mana and opportunity cost of using it is steep and perhaps excessive, but might not be seen that way if mana income was better.

Serious ranged attacks are problematic from a pvp standpoint (and there's a PvP server now, so such concerns are going to be factored in whether we like it or not) and also go against a knightly class in terms of concept. One of the defining traits of knights is that they typically eschewed ranged attacked as cowardly and dishonorable. That's why they don't use bows. You might argue that engineering also works against the theme of the class--and it does--but that's no reason to abandon the idea entirely. Exorcism is reserved for uniquely evil creatures that have no honor in the first place therefore its fair game. Range should therefore remain a weak point for the class.

For my part, I'd like to see better justification for going to 31 Protection. The deep tree, not necessarily Ardent Defender itself, could use some enhancements. In particular it ought to offer sufficient threat so that folks don't feel like they have to go 30 ret for Vengeance. I'd be thrilled with better mana return from somewhere or less reliance on using large amounts of mana for building threat--one way or the other, threat generation that correlates better to the mana bar's performance.

I appreciate T-wow's efforts in this area. We've got to the point where relatively modest tuning changes can put the class where it ought to be--the big jobs are already done.

[Calli]

Yes, the deep prot should be attractive to overcome vengeance.

[Westron]

I mean Avenger Shield would be way better than the current 31 point talent that no one seems to take and solves the problem of not having a ranged pull. I mean they could just kind of reskin chain lighting and remove the cast timer possibly with a 20 second cd or something. ( since avenger shield didn't exists in this version. Not sure how hard it is to add/import spells from other versions.)

I think the Imp Seal of justice should be built in or just need one talent point and then introduce maybe shield bash with 50/100% interrupt spell casting and do a little dmg (block value of shield + spike or whatever ).

[Atreidon]

Avengers shield is equally pointless as ardent defender.

While useful in dungeons, it still is worse than the 31/20/0 holy shock spec that has a range pull. Since the former can actually use the spell mid combat. While avenger shield not holding a candle to 0/21/30 spec in raids. Trading consistent threat for some startup threat which you still cant use half of the time because it bounces (think 4 horsemen, Sartura, Strong Trashpacks that need one tank per mob)

It also fundamentally fails in the classic+ aspect of turtle..by tbc/wrath the game was very streamlined with every spec fulfilling every part of their roles expected functions. Making unique class strengths/weaknesses almost completely unnoticeable. (Giving a ranged pull without having to think outside the box to the clas famously lacking ranged options)

IF the prot tree for paladin is to be changed. All we need is a way to guarantee crit immunity like a warrior can with imp. Shieldblock. Having to farm very specific gear to smooth out massive physical dmg spikes that make paladin such a jarring choice as a raidtank is awful. More blockchance on holy shield or triggering redoubt on holy shield cast would completely solve prots biggest flaw and make speccing deep prot worthwile alternative to 0/21/30

But avengers shield is a change for changes sake and does not solve any problem pala currently cant deal with

[Jrobz]

Problems:
* Bottom of Prot Tree is meh *
Crush Immune to avoid wump WUMP dead
Mana Regen/Cost
Threat while a shield is equipped

Fixes:
Ardent Defender: Any single hit taking 25% (or more) of the Paladin's Health will immediately trigger (or refresh) Redoubt
1H Spec (3/3): 3/6/10% to all DMG while shield is equipped
Imp Holy Shield (2/2): Adds 1/2 charges and returns 50/100% of the damage done as mana

I'd also like to see Rek refresh Consecration on Dodge/Parry instead of the current, but the above changes are easy to implement and fixes the core issues. IMO keep the taunt expensive and clunky so used ONLY when needed.

[Dudeface]

Prot paladin was fixed in TBC.

I appreciate the devs are trying their hand at making Prot work in the context of Turtle and their own interpretation, but the fact is that the Blizzard team nailed it for Prot Paladin in TBC. Threat, mana, taunt, itemisation, all defensive caps, survivability etc etc.

They really should just come out and say, if you can't beat them, join them and give us the TBC Prot Paladin.

[Nallkun]

Yes, the deep prot should be attractive to overcome vengeance.

Agreed - Deep Prot is VERY lack luster.
Most of us are forced to go 30 Points into Retribution to get Vengence in order to hold threat.


Avengers shield would be most welcome...
Increasing "Improved Righteous Fury" another 30-50% threat (no dmg, just threat)
Increasing Ardent Defender to 35% Reduction @ 40% HP OR adding + X % of Maximum Hit points...
Implementing the 50% damage reduction dmg bubble back (Similar idea to Shield Wall)
Enchant to Add + 1 holy damage to Armor / Rings / Trinkets?

tons of little tweaks would make Prot pally more Viable for raiding and not a delicate dance of " part ineffective, part meme spec"

[Calli]

Unique changes here:
Redoubt:1/5
Increases your chance to block attacks with a shield by 4/8/12/16/20%.

This is instead randomness.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reckoning:1/5
Gives the paladin 20/40/60/80/10% chance to make your next Holy Light instant,
costs no mana and causes 20% additional threat
after being the victim of a critical strike.
Last for 3 seconds.

This gives a very narrow window to mitigate part of the damage to increase survivability thru self healing and causes more threat by it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ardent Defender:1/1
When under the effect of Seal of Justice
the paladin deals holy damage with every melee attack
and has a chance to cause 50 holy damage
over 15 sec stacking up 3 times.

This is to make the top tier prot talent comparable with Vengeance and prevent the silly seal change with the gcd if need to taunt a mob, making Seal of Justice the tanking seal as Twow intended.

[Tasman]

Prot tree improvements should be wieved in 3 main directions:

1.Threat maintenance:
1.1.Give baseline [Hand of Reckoning], that would be trained at 10 lvl, it's non changed wotlk version.
1.2.SoJ should reduce targets movement speed to normal, when discharged, like it was in TBC. As for its talent in prot tree, it can be turned in to 33/66/100% chance immobilizing enemy for 2 sec or something else. This also will fix problem with countering high mobility targets like shamans, druids and hunters. (If it will be implemented SoC proc mechanic should be removed).
1.3.[Reckoning] - make it grant an extra attack, after being hit or shield block, parry, dodge occured. It will fix current contradiction with defese skill and benefit from it.
1.4.Addition wotlk version of [Avenger's Shield] as 31 point talent, with instant use (TBC version had 1 sec. cast), for burst aggro on multiple targets and easy mob packs pull.

2.Mana regeneration:
2.1. [Spiritual Attunement] - 2 point talent at row 6 of prot tree. That will provide paladin with 10% of mana from the amount healed hp. It will improve threat generation with spells, because prots mana drains very fast.
2.2. Make blessings last 10 min for small and 30 min for big ones, in exchange increase their mana cost by 50%.

3.Surviability improvements:
3.1.[Improved Devotion Aura] - add extra 10 defese skill (at rank 5) to this talent and move it, from row 1 to 2. Talents [Precision] and [Guardian's Favour] they should be moved to row 1, to make them more accessible to ret an holy specs.
3.2.[Toughness] - add bonus that will provide +10 points of resistance to all schools of magic (at rank 5) and make it stack with resistance auras.
3.3.[Anticipation] - change it from granting 10 of defense (due to defense as a bonus moved to [Improved Devotion Aura]), to 5% of dodge (at rank 5).
3.3.[Imroved Righteous Fury] - add all damage reduction by 6% (at rank 3).
3.4.[Blessing of Sanctuary] - double damage reduction on all ranks of this spell and add hp increase bonus: rank 1 - 4%, rank 2 - 6%, rank 3 - 8%, rank 4 - 10% and allow hp bonus to stack with BoK.
3.5.[Ardent Defender] - make it 3 point talent like it was in wotlk, but at row 6. It will give 7/13/20% damage reduction when below 35% of health and heals paladin for 10/20/30% of his hp when he recieves killing blow. Talent cooldown 2 - 3 min.
3.6.Change [Divine Protection] - to provide reduction of all incoming damage by 50%.

[Calli]

Why are you suggesting all the time TBC and WOTLK things and all those complicated changes? The class is much better than it was just need a bit of polishing. Changes should be unique. Let paladins use the light to make them tankier and please don't copy warriors and do not take their duty.
By the way in WOTLK deathknights tanked with self healing and it was fine. Paladin here should do the same really.
What do we need?
1. A deep prot talent that is comparable to the Vengeance build
2. An ability to survive crits and crushing blows, mitigating damage
3. if our taunt is a seal's judgement, let it be, but make that seal worth to use for tanking. Changing the seal just to taunt is bad.
What we don't need
1.Copy warriors
2.Bring other things from later expansions
3.Make the prot pala overpowered and change all his talents for good. All classes have talents which not really attractive, but they still have their uses sometimes for some people

[Tasman]

Why are you suggesting all the time TBC and WOTLK things and all those complicated changes? The class is much better than it was just need a bit of polishing. Changes should be unique. Let paladins use the light to make them tankier and please don't copy warriors and do not take their duty.
By the way in WOTLK deathknights tanked with self healing and it was fine. Paladin here should do the same really.
What do we need?
1. A deep prot talent that is comparable to the Vengeance build
2. An ability to survive crits and crushing blows, mitigating damage
3. if our taunt is a seal's judgement, let it be, but make that seal worth to use for tanking. Changing the seal just to taunt is bad.
What we don't need
1.Copy warriors
2.Bring other things from later expansions
3.Make the prot pala overpowered and change all his talents for good. All classes have talents which not really attractive, but they still have their uses sometimes for some people

Because they will make paladin tanking more interesting and enterataining to play, with much more choices for builds. Yes, current state of paladin is better, than in Vanilla, but not that much as it should, due to poor implementation of changes.
Most of suggested changes in my list are unique or just an improvements of already existing ones. About copying warrior. If you mean [Hand of Reckoning] and [Divine Protection]. Those abilities are essential for tanking classes, which determines their ability officially tank dungeons and raids. There are not so much that can be done with them, because they are the core of tanking mechanic.
And in my opinion [Hand of Reckoning] is unique compared to warriors or druids taunts, because it allows ranged puls and does damage. It is far supperrior to any single target taunt, which warrior or druid has, but for me it is compeletely fair. Due to warrior have 3 taunts and druid 2. And don't tell me about [Rigteous Fury] it is not a taunt. This is an threat maintenance ability. If you can't taunt target with 100% chance, it is threat maintenance. If you can, then it is a taunt.
[Divine Protection] yes, literal warrior's [Shield Wall] in my sggestion list, but in current state it is completely useless ability due to presence if [Divine Shield]. So why not to make it useful for tanking and let paladin be proper tank? Keeping one class downgrated, to make other class look good is bad approach.
We already have exapmle of so called «vanilla stile creative approach» from devs, thet ended with worst implementation of paladins taunt. Which drawbacks I will explain later. So, better stick with blizz way of improvements.

Selfhealing - actually is present in suggested version of [Ardent Defender] which provides it when it is necessary to survive. If you want more of that, this would require to do some talent rework in holy tree Row 2 and 3 talents. Here is some ideas:
Talent [Holy Land] 1 point talent at Row 3, Requires 10 points in Holy Talents - Grants your consecration spell ability to heal you, members of your party and raid if they stand on the consecrated land. Healing occurs every time when damage supposed to be done to the enemies who enter the area (damage and healing effect scales separately from amount of healling and damage spell power).
Talent [Improved Holy Seals] 5 point talent at Row 2 Requires 5 points in Holy Talents - Icreases damage done by your [Seal of Righteousness], healing gained from [Seal of Light] and mana from [Seal of Wisdom] by 20% (at max rank).

What do we need?
1.You basically want to cram everithing in one or two talents and expect that it will work out. No it won't, look at how many changes blizz made to make paladins valuable at tanking.
2.Already suggested in «3.Surviability improvements».
3.No it should not be SoJ.
There is 6 reasons why it is a bad idea:
1.It requires 3 talent points to obtain.
2.You can't get it until you are 27 lvl, where warrior gets [Taunt] at 10 lvl and [Mocking Blow] at 16 lvl, [Challenging Shout] at 26 lvl, Druid gets [Growl] at 10 lvl and [Challenging Roar] at 28 lvl, learning them as baseline spells.
3.It removes SoW on target effect.
4.Don't have useful on paladin effect when tanking.
5.Requires usage of 2 separate abilities in order to taunt.
6.Overwhelms seal system when tanking. Because seal system effectively can support only 2 seals (which is at current moment SoR and SoW) at one time, third is too much for it.

What we don't need?
1.Except [Divine Protection], I consider, that all other paladins spells/talents, suggeted in my list are pretty unique and based on TBC and wotlk improvements. Other talents/skill that can be recognised as copypaste from warrior, is made by blizz or turtle devs. Portion of existing talents, that was improved, can't be viewed as copy past from warrior.
2.To late we already have TBC's version of [Ardent Defender] talent, that by itself was bad, but devs made it even worse, by downgrading damage reduction from 30% to 25%. Blame devs for starting this.
And «vanilla stile creative approach» just don't work and make things pretty complicated and even unusable. So I don't agree with you here.
3.Those suggestions, came in my mind, with expectation that they would be implemented in same patch with changes for other classes. So if someone consider that paladin will be OP with those changes, go to your class forum section and suggest your ideas.
I don't agree that there should be some useless talents. I suggest idea, to make all talents attractive, which will result in different builds. We don't have too many talents/ablities in each tree here, but we have a lot of problems with current ones being underpowered/useless. You can't improve tanking performance, by retaining them in their current state, with less effort.

And one more, look at SoD. Literal copy past of TBC, wotlk and even Cata abilities/talents thorugh rune mechanic. And a lot of people went there to play from turtle (just look how population decreased on PvP server and even on PVE). That means, people want more class changes.

[Calli]

Why are you suggesting all the time TBC and WOTLK things and all those complicated changes? The class is much better than it was just need a bit of polishing. Changes should be unique. Let paladins use the light to make them tankier and please don't copy warriors and do not take their duty.
By the way in WOTLK deathknights tanked with self healing and it was fine. Paladin here should do the same really.
What do we need?
1. A deep prot talent that is comparable to the Vengeance build
2. An ability to survive crits and crushing blows, mitigating damage
3. if our taunt is a seal's judgement, let it be, but make that seal worth to use for tanking. Changing the seal just to taunt is bad.
What we don't need
1.Copy warriors
2.Bring other things from later expansions
3.Make the prot pala overpowered and change all his talents for good. All classes have talents which not really attractive, but they still have their uses sometimes for some people

Because they will make paladin tanking more interesting and enterataining to play, with much more choices for builds. Yes, current state of paladin is better, than in Vanilla, but not that much as it should, due to poor implementation of changes.
Most of suggested changes in my list are unique or just an improvements of already existing ones. About copying warrior. If you mean [Hand of Reckoning] and [Divine Protection]. Those abilities are essential for tanking classes, which determines their ability officially tank dungeons and raids. There are not so much that can be done with them, because they are the core of tanking mechanic.
And in my opinion [Hand of Reckoning] is unique compared to warriors or druids taunts, because it allows ranged puls and does damage. It is far supperrior to any single target taunt, which warrior or druid has, but for me it is compeletely fair. Due to warrior have 3 taunts and druid 2. And don't tell me about [Rigteous Fury] it is not a taunt. This is an threat maintenance ability. If you can't taunt target with 100% chance, it is threat maintenance. If you can, then it is a taunt.
[Divine Protection] yes, literal warrior's [Shield Wall] in my sggestion list, but in current state it is completely useless ability due to presence if [Divine Shield]. So why not to make it useful for tanking and let paladin be proper tank? Keeping one class downgrated, to make other class look good is bad approach.
We already have exapmle of so called «vanilla stile creative approach» from devs, thet ended with worst implementation of paladins taunt. Which drawbacks I will explain later. So, better stick with blizz way of improvements.

Selfhealing - actually is present in suggested version of [Ardent Defender] which provides it when it is necessary to survive. If you want more of that, this would require to do some talent rework in holy tree Row 2 and 3 talents. Here is some ideas:
Talent [Holy Land] 1 point talent at Row 3, Requires 10 points in Holy Talents - Grants your consecration spell ability to heal you, members of your party and raid if they stand on the consecrated land. Healing occurs every time when damage supposed to be done to the enemies who enter the area (damage and healing effect scales separately from amount of healling and damage spell power).
Talent [Improved Holy Seals] 5 point talent at Row 2 Requires 5 points in Holy Talents - Icreases damage done by your [Seal of Righteousness], healing gained from [Seal of Light] and mana from [Seal of Wisdom] by 20% (at max rank).

What do we need?
1.You basically want to cram everithing in one or two talents and expect that it will work out. No it won't, look at how many changes blizz made to make paladins valuable at tanking.
2.Already suggested in «3.Surviability improvements».
3.No it should not be SoJ.
There is 6 reasons why it is a bad idea:
1.It requires 3 talent points to obtain.
2.You can't get it until you are 27 lvl, where warrior gets [Taunt] at 10 lvl and [Mocking Blow] at 16 lvl, [Challenging Shout] at 26 lvl, Druid gets [Growl] at 10 lvl and [Challenging Roar] at 28 lvl, learning them as baseline spells.
3.It removes SoW on target effect.
4.Don't have useful on paladin effect when tanking.
5.Requires usage of 2 separate abilities in order to taunt.
6.Overwhelms seal system when tanking. Because seal system effectively can support only 2 seals (which is at current moment SoR and SoW) at one time, third is too much for it.

What we don't need?
1.Except [Divine Protection], I consider, that all other paladins spells/talents, suggeted in my list are pretty unique and based on TBC and wotlk improvements. Other talents/skill that can be recognised as copypaste from warrior, is made by blizz or turtle devs. Portion of existing talents, that was improved, can't be viewed as copy past from warrior.
2.To late we already have TBC's version of [Ardent Defender] talent, that by itself was bad, but devs made it even worse, by downgrading damage reduction from 30% to 25%. Blame devs for starting this.
And «vanilla stile creative approach» just don't work and make things pretty complicated and even unusable. So I don't agree with you here.
3.Those suggestions, came in my mind, with expectation that they would be implemented in same patch with changes for other classes. So if someone consider that paladin will be OP with those changes, go to your class forum section and suggest your ideas.
I don't agree that there should be some useless talents. I suggest idea, to make all talents attractive, which will result in different builds. We don't have too many talents/ablities in each tree here, but we have a lot of problems with current ones being underpowered/useless. You can't improve tanking performance, by retaining them in their current state, with less effort.

And one more, look at SoD. Literal copy past of TBC, wotlk and even Cata abilities/talents thorugh rune mechanic. And a lot of people went there to play from turtle (just look how population decreased on PvP server and even on PVE). That means, people want more class changes.

Thank you for the input. I think your suggestion for self healing has nothing to do with tanking. Yes Hand of Reckoning would be most welcome. I mean the judgement thingy would be good but as you said, yes, it overwrites judgement effect and you have to deal with gcd. It would be optimal to have a seal for tanking, maybe two, one for cleave damage and one for single target, then you can judge to taunt without changing seals and not remove already existing judgement effect on target. Then it would work better. Baseline Hand of Reckoning would solve it and I agree with you on what you wrote about it.
What do you think about my Reckoning talent I suggested above?
Also end prot talents would be better for tanking than Vengeance.

[Bob022]

I'm not him, and I'm leery of heal-based tanks as a matter of concept, but I'll skip that reservation for now. A less subjective issue with your proposal for Reckoning is that it's still based on incoming crits, which represents a serious limitation. In effect it'd be useful only for leveling or PvP since tanks gear for crit immunity in max level PvE content. If that's the intent, then all's good.

Ardent Defender is a good talent for 1 point. Yes it can be leapfrogged by sufficiently high hits--it isn't perfect--but it's still a no-brainer at a one point cost if someone's 30 points in Prot anyway. The TBC version of the talent was a multiple-point talent and hence expensive for what it did. Turtle's version is good value, and I hugely appreciate that it's passive--combat is busy enough as it is. The main issue is at present not a lot of paladins want to go 30 points into Protection. Most of the deep Prot tree is mediocre to bad, and Vengeance over in Retribution is very strong.

Aside from mediocre single target threat, paladin won't be taken seriously as a tank at the high-end, especially not for progression, until the problem of crushing blows is addressed, either by making it realistically possible to reach consistent immunity, or by making Warriors vulnerable to them.

I don't mind the taunt being inferior to Warrior or Druid taunt, but I do mind it costing three points. That feels like adding insult to injury.

In general the class needs better baseline mana returns. This can be accomplished within existing mechanics--just the values need tweaking. The current system of gearing for add-on damage serves as a workaround for now, but it's unsatisfying, "secret" in the game unless another player teaches about it, and clunky besides.

[Calli]

Unique changes UPDATE:

Reckoning:1/5
Increases your block value by 100/150/200/250/300% of your spell power.

For mitigation. Easy to implement and unique to make paladins rely on block value.
Holy Shield and Redoubt also becomes more valuable.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One handed specialization changed to Holy Justice or whatever: 1/1
Gives the paladin a chance on a successful hit to make your next Holy Light instant,
reduces mana cost by 100% and causes 100% additional threat.
Last for 4 seconds.

See Hand of Edward the Odd mace proc, but as a talent and for Holy Light only. Or make the proc rate similar to Seal of Command's rate. It is good and unique improvevent for survivalability and already in the game.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ardent Defender: 1/5
When under the effect of Seal of Justice the paladin deals holy damage with every melee attack.
Increases Holy Shield's block chance by 1/2/3/4/5%.

For threat & damage & mitigation.

[Zulnam]

A 31 point talent that is not a passive would be nice.

Generally i never liked when you got a 1/1 talent unlocked and it's a passive. but to have the 31 point one a passive is lame-o.

[Calli]

A 31 point talent that is not a passive would be nice.

Generally i never liked when you got a 1/1 talent unlocked and it's a passive. but to have the 31 point one a passive is lame-o.

Because you all want to introduce WotLK and later expansion thingies, overpowered complicated changes, be-warrior type abilities and that will not happen, because I don't think the devs want to copy those abilities. These listed changes are already in the game, can be implemented in a few hours and can improve the class.