The case against Trueshot

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Steakhouse
Posts: 27

The case against Trueshot

Post by Steakhouse » Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:05 pm

TLDR : Despite Trueshot greatly improving the viability of Hunters, it is harmful to the uniqueness of the class' gameplay in PvE, by making the rest of their kit obsolete, de-incentivizing melee weaving, and due to its similarity with Slam Warrior.

In Vanilla, Hunters have an issue of scaling, wherein in PvE, their damage is mostly limited to autoshots and the occasional Aimed Shot since Serpent Sting and Arcane Shot don't scale with ranged attack power, so in most cases, the damage of these spells will be the same for a fresh lvl 60 wearing greens and a full-tier 3 raider. This greatly affects their viability, as bringing a Hunter to your raid in Vanilla has the opportunity cost of not bringing a better DPS. Due to this, Hunters are usualy brought to a raid for their utility of pulling, tracking, and tranq shot.

Turtle WoW attempts to fix this by introducing Trueshot, a Steady Shot clone: 1.5 cast time, weapon damage + small boost (+10 at lvl 36 to +60 at lvl 60), for a very low mana cost compared to their other damaging shots (5% of base mana at all ranks). This synergizes with Hunter's strongest source of damage, their autoshots, and takes a bit of getting used to since you want to cast Trueshot as close as possible to your Autoshot, to minimize the Autoshot downtime that casting Trueshot may cause as Trueshot pauses your attack timer: it's an interesting tool that requires some mastering to properly use.

A few issues with Trueshot are as follows :

- In Vanilla, top hunters mitigated the worthlessness of Arcane Shot and Serpent Sting by weaving melee attacks between their Autoshots, since the cooldown of both are on separate timers. This was a great example of emergent, creative gameplay to circumvent an issue with class design, and created a cool dynamic feel to the class where Hunters had to make quick decisions to adapt to the situation in which they were: do you go for the high-risk, high-DPS strat of weaving, or do you stay back and shoot from a safe distance ? Unfortunately, Trueshot completely removes the need for weaving, as sitting back and spamming Trueshot synchronously with Autoshots creates much higher DPS with no risk of getting hit by melee-ranged spells like Cleaves or Tail Swipes compared to Melee Weaving.

- In addition to the previous point, gameplay centered around Trueshot is a bit redundant with Slam Warrior, who also want slow weapons and press the Slam button as close as possible to their auto-attack. In other words, Trueshot punishes hunters for opting to play their class uniquely, like no other class can, rather than being ranged Slam warriors. This is also true for itemization: a bow with higher DPS might be worst than a Hunter's current bow because Trueshot synergizes with slow weapons' high damage table ; currently, Hunter's synergy with fast weapons is limited to proccing Improved Aspect of the Hawk (1-5% per autoshot, depending on rank), which is generally inferior to Trueshot. Due to this, Trueshot is harmful to class identity by replacing unique class gameplay with one already found on another class.

- Trueshot is generally a bit overtuned from the moment it is obtained at level 36, making your 2 other main damaging shot spells somewhat obsolete. At level 36, Trueshot costs 50 mana and deals weapon damage (depending on gear, between 150 and 200 dmg), versus 83 damage for 105 mana for Arcane Shot and 210 damage over 15 seconds for 115 mana for Serpent Sting. Arcane Shot still has its use cases (eg kiting and PvP) but for most cases it's fine to simply take Arcane Shot off your Action Bars and stop learning new ranks of it as soon as you have access to Trueshot. This precipitates what happened anyways in vanilla for PvE hunters : removing tools from their kit due to their poor scaling, high mana-per-damage cost, and opportunity cost compared to Trueshot.

- This is just a personal gripe but I greatly enjoy that Turtle WoW's class changes are often unique to this server, and I think it's a shame that a BC spell has taken the reins of raiding Hunters, rather than something unique to TWoW.

Some proposed solutions, which could be tested individually or batched together :

- Give Trueshot a cooldown. This would reintroduce the opportunity for melee weaving while Trueshot is on cooldown. Optionally, Autoshots could reduce the remaining cooldown of Trueshot, which would give Hunters some incentive to use faster weapons: more shots = more instances of cooldown reduction on Trueshot in addition to more Imp Aspect of the Hawk procs : as such, fast weapons could be more definitive for Hunters who prefer ranged, while slow weapons (which already synergize with weaving in Vanilla by giving more time to go in and out of melee ranged before your autoshot timer is ready) would be preferred for weaving.

- Increase the incentive for Hunters to weave Melee attacks in between their ranged attacks. This could be done by nerfing Trueshot damage, buffing Melee Hunter damage, or making Trueshot and Melee Hunter synergize in some way (eg : Trueshot buffs your next Raptor Strike, Raptor Strike buffs your next Trueshot). This would reintroduce the reward to Hunters who go for the harder to pull off and riskier strat of weaving, while still giving them situations where Trueshot is the better option thanks to its safety.

- Replace Trueshot with a variety of other possibles changes to address Vanilla Hunter's issues, such as an attack that synergizes with Hunter pets, buffs to Arcane Shot and Serpent Sting and their associated talents (5 points for -1 cooldown on Arcane Shot whose damage is just terrible for a prohibitively high mana cost is just not worth it), or something else !

Thanks for taking the time to read me ! What do you think of Trueshot ? happy_turtle_head

Frantsel
Posts: 187
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Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Frantsel » Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:10 am

I agree. I stopped playing my hunter because it was boring.

The rotation bored me so much that I couldnt do it anymore.
I never got into meleeweaving, because it wasnt necessary. Hunter should be way more demanding than what it is right now.

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Harkus
Posts: 156

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Harkus » Tue Jan 02, 2024 1:18 pm

The previous rotation was AA -> AS -> AA -> AS etc. if you did not melee weave, this is hardly different.

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Tacticalnelf
Posts: 103

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Tacticalnelf » Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:44 pm

The solution to this is quite simple: when you remove the Trueshot, make the Arcane Shot deal 50% of your Auto Shot + the Skill's base damage as arcane damage. And make Aimed Shot not share CD with Arcane Shot.

Calli
Posts: 266

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Calli » Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:04 pm

You never played the hunter to it's full potential. Worst suggestions ever. Give trueshot a cd? Are you joking, right?

Calli
Posts: 266

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Calli » Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:06 pm

Frantsel wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:10 am
I agree. I stopped playing my hunter because it was boring.

The rotation bored me so much that I couldnt do it anymore.
I never got into meleeweaving, because it wasnt necessary. Hunter should be way more demanding than what it is right now.
Where did you play and what did you do? What was your rotation and what else did you do on raids?

Frantsel
Posts: 187
Likes: 1 time

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Frantsel » Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:25 pm

Calli wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 4:06 pm
Frantsel wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:10 am
I agree. I stopped playing my hunter because it was boring.

The rotation bored me so much that I couldnt do it anymore.
I never got into meleeweaving, because it wasnt necessary. Hunter should be way more demanding than what it is right now.
Where did you play and what did you do? What was your rotation and what else did you do on raids?
I raided the phase 1 raids and had a few bwl runs. Then I stopped playing the hunter and switched to a priest.

On longer fights I opened with aimed, auto, multi on cd, otherwise trueshot, auto.. sth like that. Its over half a year ago so I forgot the details. Serpent sting i used in longer fights.
But I remember I was very bored. Sometimes I could icetrap mobs which was great. Especially retrapping with feign death.

But I must say from all classes Ive played so far, hunter was the most boring. I only skipped Paladin so far (because of reasons).

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Borefficz
Posts: 169

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Borefficz » Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:12 pm

Good riddance to melee weaving in PvE, the only reason it was a thing in the first place was because of how awful Hunter's ranged DPS toolkit was. To me it's a terribly unfun concept.

What makes Hunter unique is that it's the only class in the game that deals physical ranged damage and IMO if there are any changes to be made they should embrace this aspect.

Aimed Shot should have less added physical damage and scale better with your weapon damage so it is worth using on cooldown over Trueshot. Or maybe have it apply some buff/debuff so while its raw DPS output would be worse than Trueshot's it'd still be worth using on CD.
Last edited by Borefficz on Tue Jan 02, 2024 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Snoodydood
Posts: 82

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Snoodydood » Tue Jan 02, 2024 5:37 pm

Melee weaving was definitely not an intention in hunters vanilla design and was done only by tryhards struggling to keep their raid spot in crappy anti-fun guilds. The idea of having to stay in melee range as a hunter goes AGAINST their entire class design and identity and trying to say that we should have to engage in such a shitty meta just to keep up dps is ridiculous. Try playing a warlock ans say hunters are boring in raids.

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Anadrol
Posts: 65

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Anadrol » Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:14 am

No, now Hunters are so good in PvE, never change something that works

Alfonso
Posts: 48

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Alfonso » Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:29 am

I agree 100%

Trueshot is too cheap in mana costs and too simple in usage. Part of the fun should be managing mana consumption.
A Hunter does not need T3 benefits from crits, any MP5 for raiding, or Mana Potions/Mana Oils on weapons. At least on alliance, the seal of wisdom from the Pala completely refills your mana.

To weave Melee attacks in between their ranged attack is ugly and nothing i would like to see again!

The best solution would be to make Aimed Shot scale instead of +600 dmg flat, since Aimed shot starts great when you do 200dmg with your bow and falls apart once you are able to do 600-800dmg with a white attack. So to make it more useful it should be at least +150% dmg instead of the +600 AND its cast time should be reduced by Haste as intended!!!

Now, giving Trueshot a CD like Aimed Shot might lead to an Auto >> Aimed Shot >> Auto >> Trueshot ... Rotation that might be even stronger...

To avoid that, I would rather remove Trueshot after improving Aimed shot and give Hunters something we have seen in SOD like +crit after you stand still for x Seconds.

Calli
Posts: 266

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Calli » Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:58 pm

Alfonso wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2024 11:29 am
I agree 100%

Trueshot is too cheap in mana costs and too simple in usage. Part of the fun should be managing mana consumption.
A Hunter does not need T3 benefits from crits, any MP5 for raiding, or Mana Potions/Mana Oils on weapons. At least on alliance, the seal of wisdom from the Pala completely refills your mana.

To weave Melee attacks in between their ranged attack is ugly and nothing i would like to see again!

The best solution would be to make Aimed Shot scale instead of +600 dmg flat, since Aimed shot starts great when you do 200dmg with your bow and falls apart once you are able to do 600-800dmg with a white attack. So to make it more useful it should be at least +150% dmg instead of the +600 AND its cast time should be reduced by Haste as intended!!!

Now, giving Trueshot a CD like Aimed Shot might lead to an Auto >> Aimed Shot >> Auto >> Trueshot ... Rotation that might be even stronger...

To avoid that, I would rather remove Trueshot after improving Aimed shot and give Hunters something we have seen in SOD like +crit after you stand still for x Seconds.
If you say no mana pots needed then you are playing a "lazy hunter's rotation" and I understand that it it boring for you, it would be boring for me as well. But when you are doing a max damage rotation then you will need manapots and tea too! The things you can do, man, trinket swapping with FD, traps with FD, sappers, dynamites, pulling a mob off to the healer to not let him die, pulling a mob off even from the tank when his health drop, then kite a bit then FD to give those valuable seconds to the healers...frost trapping the zombies on Gluth while watching when to tq shot... kiting jobs... Is hunter boring for you? Then you are not playing it to his full potential and as someone else said above, go and play a warlock.
Please stop suggesting cd on trueshot and get to know the class more first, before writing anything hopefully constructive in the future. Thank you.

Kord24
Posts: 26

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Kord24 » Fri Jan 05, 2024 8:32 pm

Frantsel wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:10 am
I agree. I stopped playing my hunter because it was boring.

The rotation bored me so much that I couldnt do it anymore.
I never got into meleeweaving, because it wasnt necessary. Hunter should be way more demanding than what it is right now.
I don't understand this statement? Don't like it fine, but boring? Hunter DPS rotation is among the hardest of any class in the game to get perfect. Mage? Warlock? Just get one of those drinking bird things to tap one button the entire fight.

Juzam
Posts: 6

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Juzam » Sun Jan 07, 2024 9:47 pm

Melee weaving is just bad. there's already several classes who can use melee physical damage as a pve spec, while only hunter can use ranged physical dps, forçing us to go melee to get the best dps would make no sense.

Scelus12
Posts: 44

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Scelus12 » Mon Jan 08, 2024 1:35 am

I appreciate the very thoughtful post.

I’m a life long wow nerd who is playing Hunter for the first time in 20 years. I’m finding the class to be extremely deep in many ways but I do agree with your analysis. Trueshot creates a less engaging rotation than vanilla Hunter.

I don’t love the melee weaving suggestion. It seems too clunky and situational to be the optimal strategy, when pets already create “a clunky thing to manage to squeeze out a few more dps” in raids.

The most obvious solution seems simple — scale arcane shot and serpent sting the way it always should’ve been. It’s fine for hunters to be the bottom of the “pure dps” tier, as long as they are close. Tune these abilities as wells as RAP to achieve this. Melee weaving would then be on the menu, and would create a opportunity for an extremely skilled hunter to actually compete for the top 5 in dps in a raid.

Calli
Posts: 266

Re: The case against Trueshot

Post by Calli » Mon Jan 08, 2024 9:11 pm

Don't you have anything else to do than writing nonsense about hunters? Ask for advice for experienced fellas if you are stuck, don't suggest crap please.

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