Horde vs Alliance Racials

[Xwolfi]

Everyone knows the horde racials are far superior to alliance racials in PVP....The alliance have 0 Offensive racials and even the defensive racials are questionable....

Horde racials offer insane offence and defensive (Orc being most prominent)

The massive imbalance means all serious PVPers roll horde while alliance is left with the trash RP'ers

It was a massive problem in Classic and I don't undersstand why twow devs made 0 adjustment here. Either remove racials completely or atleast balance alli racials.


Otherwise the Horde will continue to facerolll alliance and alliance players will just stop playing.

[Springboards]

Allaince does need some sort of offensive racial, I agree...maybe just give the old arcane torrent to high elves? Inb4 incoming qq from legions of UD casters...yea it was obnoxious in BC ,free 3 or 4 second insta aoe silence which u could chain with other BE

Otherwise I guess roll gnome or dwarf, human and elves are completely useless racial-wise

[Xwolfi]

Only Gnomes have a racial I would consider on paar with horde racials... Problem is everyone hates gnomes and they look like shit.

[Marty1980]

Well , it tend to give instant pvp queue for alliance. Yes horde have better racial , but we have paladin :P. So i think its kinda even out

[Ataika]

My horde racial surely heps me when artificially buffed paladin hits me to 2k while being bubbled

[Steelgrip]

Only Gnomes have a racial I would consider on paar with horde racials... Problem is everyone hates gnomes and they look like shit.

LOL? I love Gnomes :D I play Gnomes for 20y+ :D

Gnomes are the best!

Paladin + Priest need to be able to be Gnome!!

Shaman too!!

FOR GNOMEREGAN!!!

[Wilczan]

[Jammyxx]

No racial will matter when you can get 1 shot by trash ret palas.

[Drubarrymooer]

+5 weapon skill to like half the weapon types in the game is a pretty fair trade. You can't have the best pve racial for melee classes and a pvp cd on top of that. What do you think this is wotlk?!

[Anadrol]

Well, then Buff alliance racials and nerf paladins

[Vaikaris]

Well , it tend to give instant pvp queue for alliance. Yes horde have better racial , but we have paladin :P. So i think its kinda even out

Paladins are not OP in PvP. This is something horde repeatedly cry about to deflect nerfs.

Paladins are simply situational - yes, in arenas its annoying because its close quarters, quick matches. Yes, it's annoying if you're in WSG and you're disproportionately composed of melees and shamans, lets say.

But the reality of the fact is, you can still kite a palaidn to infinity and it doesn't matter if they one-shot you, because you really shound't be getting hit. And if they commit to hitting you, they shouldnt be able to heal/support, in which case what's the difference between a paladin and a pom pyro mage? Well, for starters, the pom pyro mage can always get his cast off and the cooldown is shorter than the bubble that allows paladins to safely dump their damage...

Yeh, paladins are badly tuned - but only because they are the equivalent of reckbombs in twow. One-shot in the right situation, a clear 0 if kited.

[Erhog]

Paladins are OP in PvP coz they aren't care about your damage or your CC - they could standing in pack of enemy team and keep healing their buddies with bubble of them. Others aren't matter much while your healers could be killed and you cannot kill or somehow control healers of other team. This is the most annoying on WSG and less impactful on AB. And this is what gives benefits to the team with paladins in prem vs prem. On random vs random this is even worse to the horde.

[Marty1980]

Well , it tend to give instant pvp queue for alliance. Yes horde have better racial , but we have paladin :P. So i think its kinda even out

Paladins are not OP in PvP. This is something horde repeatedly cry about to deflect nerfs.

Paladins are simply situational - yes, in arenas its annoying because its close quarters, quick matches. Yes, it's annoying if you're in WSG and you're disproportionately composed of melees and shamans, lets say.

But the reality of the fact is, you can still kite a palaidn to infinity and it doesn't matter if they one-shot you, because you really shound't be getting hit. And if they commit to hitting you, they shouldnt be able to heal/support, in which case what's the difference between a paladin and a pom pyro mage? Well, for starters, the pom pyro mage can always get his cast off and the cooldown is shorter than the bubble that allows paladins to safely dump their damage...

Yeh, paladins are badly tuned - but only because they are the equivalent of reckbombs in twow. One-shot in the right situation, a clear 0 if kited.

It was more about having an extra class that can dispel.

[Jongyi]

No need to nerf Horde racial. Just buff alliance pvp racial

[Manletow]

Well , it tend to give instant pvp queue for alliance. Yes horde have better racial , but we have paladin :P. So i think its kinda even out

Paladins are not OP in PvP. This is something horde repeatedly cry about to deflect nerfs.

Paladins are simply situational - yes, in arenas its annoying because its close quarters, quick matches. Yes, it's annoying if you're in WSG and you're disproportionately composed of melees and shamans, lets say.

But the reality of the fact is, you can still kite a palaidn to infinity
what's the difference between a paladin and a pom pyro mage?

Yeh, paladins are badly tuned - but only because they are the equivalent of reckbombs in twow. One-shot in the right situation, a clear 0 if kited.

Yes Ret/Holy paladins are overpowered. They are the only class in S-Tier imo.
If the broken ability 'Holy Strike' was nerfed heavily in power then they would fall to A-Tier. Still top tier.

They HARDcounter all melee classes so Rogues, Warriors, Feral Druids, Most Shamans (any that rely on Shield/Armor for survivability)

So they auto-win against 45% of classes. 4/9 classes in the game they can't lose (if both equally geared/skilled)

No they arent nearly as easy to kite as you claim. They have Blessing of Freedom + Cleanse spam.

They are only hardcountered by Warlock (which is the least played class in the game) and to a lesser extent Shadow Priest.
This is due to no Fear defense, no interrupt, no Curse Removal.

They are overpowered not just because Holy Strike is broken but because of their EXCELLENT survivability + utility + healing + buffs. They are essentially a Warrior except objectively better in every way imaginable and vastly more desirable/useful to have on any team.

The OP Horde Racials are the only thing keeping the battlegrouds "fair" against the server of 60% paladin players.

Also it helps that many Paladins are horrendously awful at the game/PVP.

P.S. PoM Pyroblast Mage is a meme spec that is not actually good. That is a common myth. Also it requires full talent / trinket dedication and is highly unreliable.
Holy Strike is obtained at level 4. LOL.

[Ataika]

Developers "confirmed" paladins are op like ehm... 1 year ago ?
Since then nothing has been changed, paladins still pop up bubble run into horde and 2shot people for the bubble duration.

Deal with it, developers are not able to fix pvp balance because do not care about pvp or play alliance only.

[Bigsmerf]

Sounds like someone forgot to roll horde. Can't complain about their racials being broken if they can't use 'em on ya. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?

[Vaikaris]

Well , it tend to give instant pvp queue for alliance. Yes horde have better racial , but we have paladin :P. So i think its kinda even out

Paladins are not OP in PvP. This is something horde repeatedly cry about to deflect nerfs.

Paladins are simply situational - yes, in arenas its annoying because its close quarters, quick matches. Yes, it's annoying if you're in WSG and you're disproportionately composed of melees and shamans, lets say.

But the reality of the fact is, you can still kite a palaidn to infinity
what's the difference between a paladin and a pom pyro mage?

Yeh, paladins are badly tuned - but only because they are the equivalent of reckbombs in twow. One-shot in the right situation, a clear 0 if kited.

Yes Ret/Holy paladins are overpowered. They are the only class in S-Tier imo.
If the broken ability 'Holy Strike' was nerfed heavily in power then they would fall to A-Tier. Still top tier.

They HARDcounter all melee classes so Rogues, Warriors, Feral Druids, Most Shamans (any that rely on Shield/Armor for survivability)

So they auto-win against 45% of classes. 4/9 classes in the game they can't lose (if both equally geared/skilled)

No they arent nearly as easy to kite as you claim. They have Blessing of Freedom + Cleanse spam.

They are only hardcountered by Warlock (which is the least played class in the game) and to a lesser extent Shadow Priest.
This is due to no Fear defense, no interrupt, no Curse Removal.

They are overpowered not just because Holy Strike is broken but because of their EXCELLENT survivability + utility + healing + buffs. They are essentially a Warrior except objectively better in every way imaginable and vastly more desirable/useful to have on any team.

The OP Horde Racials are the only thing keeping the battlegrouds "fair" against the server of 60% paladin players.

Also it helps that many Paladins are horrendously awful at the game/PVP.

P.S. PoM Pyroblast Mage is a meme spec that is not actually good. That is a common myth. Also it requires full talent / trinket dedication and is highly unreliable.
Holy Strike is obtained at level 4. LOL.

Load of bull. Sadly the best horde racial is "crying" so the whining is effective enough to negate reality.

First of all, a warrior in vanilla is countered by every single other class in the game, even a rogue, on a 1v1 basis. This is a non-argument. Second of all, rogues can sprint, ferals can travel form, shamans can ghost wolf. Palading have NO distance closer. So if they don't one-shot you to begin with, you effectively stunlock them forever, due to the fact they either have to just give up on killing you, or walk toward you and never catch you.

Second of all, by far the vast majority of shamans in pvp are elemental. This absolutely blows paladins out of the water - for starters, ele shamans can dump about the same burst, if not more, AND ele specc has nearly the same heals as a resto. Elemental shamans can also purge and kite, especially with ghost wolf, as well as use grounding totem to absorb the stun/repentance that allows paladins to open. Paladins have NO ranged attack so unable to take out totem before attacking and even clearing totems with attack is next to impossible.

Third of all, mages also hard counter paladins, hunter too. You can't cleanse your own trap or negate scatter shot - if a paladin even hits a hunter, the hunter was bad.

So even if we ignore the hideously overpowered state of elemental shamans with just a tiny bit of gear, a paladin relies on the enemy not having 4 of the 8 classes in the game in the enemy group of 10/15 in order to even be able to kill someone.

This is without even getting to the fact that a paladin, in order to do all this, needs to be a very good playre who is geared up to one-shot and have an intricate knowledge and awareness of CC and game mechanics to be able to do anything. An average paladin player will be nearly useless as a ret paladin was before holy strike.

For balance purposes, let's compare a paladin with, say, a warrior. A geared paladin can use blessing of freedom to close the distance, then dump a lot of damage on you. A warrior can use charge/intercept to close the distance and dump a bit less, but still more damage than you can do if you facetank them. Paladins can cleanse mage slows and avoid nova/roots if they're good. Warriors reduce healing and interrupt, allowing for significantly better long-term damage and utility.

Are warriors overpowered? They're noticeably better in a group setting. Paladins are better in small-scale, close quarters combat where you have less enemy CC to deal with and less distance to cover.

Such as, 2v2 arenas. Which no longer exist. Or very lucky team comps in BGs. And again, they even have to be very well geared and good, which isn't the case in the vast majority of cases.

Let's compare then with an elemental shaman, shall we? Elemental shamans at a gear level even below t2.5 are easily capable of one-shotting enemies in the same amount of gcds. From distance. With a totem that provides a shield from an instant cast you might use to prevent the one-shot. Without having to be in the frontlines where its harder to swap to healing. From larger distance than most classes can interrupt or disrupt it. With basically 0 ways to avoid it. Consistently.

Now explain how my absurdly overpowere shadowmeld and 1% dodge as a night elf helps me against 2.5k chain lightnings and 1.5k shocks, please?

[Kobiq]

+5 weapon skill to like half the weapon types in the game is a pretty fair trade. You can't have the best pve racial for melee classes and a pvp cd on top of that. What do you think this is wotlk?!

Not like there's no +5 Axe or gnome

[Frantsel]

No need to nerf Horde racial. Just buff alliance pvp racial

Yea right, give palas even more dmg. Such a good idea.

[Springboards]

Difference is shaman has to actually hardcast his spells(chain light)..paladins always got swift pots/boots/stopwatches not to mention their 10% movement speed talent...and leeway is funky here so you get hit from 20 yards away

1 silence or interrupt will shut down a shaman, not so much a paladin who can just get out of stuns or silences with both bubbles and a pvp trinket

mages dont hardcounter paladins due to all the hardcasting,maybe warlocks do due to their insta dots

[Jongyi]

No need to nerf Horde racial. Just buff alliance pvp racial

Yea right, give palas even more dmg. Such a good idea.

School didn't teach you how to read properly?
I said buff alliance racials to counter stun, fear effect like horde do.

[Krotux]

Human racial would be good if it actually worked well. Perception only reveals stealth when they're already close to you so with server lag they can open.

Humans don't need any other racial, just buff that one imo.

And you're all complaining about pallies for real? Shamans are better in almost every way. I absolutely hate seeing pallies in my solo queue teams unless they are geared. And paladin T3 is purely a healing set lol not ret.

[Manletow]

the best horde racial is "crying" so the whining is effective enough to negate reality.

First of all, a warrior in vanilla is countered by every single other class in the game, even a rogue, on a 1v1 basis.
Palading have NO distance closer.
if they don't one-shot you to begin with, they have to just give up on killing you

Second of all, by far the vast majority of shamans in pvp are elemental.
shamans can purge
use grounding totem to absorb the stun/repentance that allows paladins to open.
Paladins have NO ranged attack
even clearing totems with attack is next to impossible.

hunter counters paladin

a paladin, in order to do all this, needs to be a very good player

A warrior can use charge/intercept to close the distance and dump a bit less,
Warriors allow for significantly better long-term damage and utility

Such as, 2v2 arenas. Which no longer exist

Now explain how my absurdly overpowere shadowmeld and 1% dodge as a night elf helps me against 2.5k chain lightnings and 1.5k shocks, please?

OP horde racials like the 25% stun resist is REQUIRED to even attempt to survive the laughably overpowered nature of Hammer of Justice --> Holy Strike

Warriors are a terrible class in PVP its true. Its unfair that Paladin is better in every way.
Warriors do have a slightly favorable matchup against Rogues.

Yes Paladins have an incredibly effective distance closer/mobility tool: Its called a 108% movement speed mount.
And having 8% increased foot speed as well.. which also means they can enchant their boots with agility instead of 'minor speed' as a bonus.

Usually they easily 2 shot people every 60 seconds via stunning them and getting a free kill essentially.
But if they somehow fail to do so... YES they can run away or "give up" on that particular kill target.
They arent the terminator they are perfectly free to do other things like support their team in countless ways.

No, you liar, there are tons of Enhancement shamans in PVP as they want to pwn face with Windfury.
Enhancement is a meme spec in PVP but regardless, many play the spec.
"Elemental is overpowered therefore Paladins are not overpowered" lolfallacy

Elemental shaman is A-Tier in PVP no doubt but not overpowered per-se. It certainly has notable weaknesses.

Seal of Command isnt even purgable you clown. Lol
Grounding totem is unreliable it breaks to all sorts of stupid effects
Totems are easily destroyed by Crusader Strike spam. its basic common sense strategy bud. lol

Yes Paladins have ranged abilities such as Holy Shock & Judgement as just two examples.

Paladins have plate armor + shield and can take tons of hunter hits. Generally they should not try chasing a hunter on foot if they have any brains whatsoever however. Picking fights wisely is basic PVP gameplay strategy.

Press 'Hammer of Justice' --> Holy Strike Crit does not require any skill. Paladin is a braindead and overpowered class.

Warriors do AWFUL damage bud... Especially against mail/plate wearers (like Paladins). They require lots of rage to use attacks like Mortal Strike and no they dont have 'long term damage' as they die so quickly due to having AWFUL survivability (unlike paladins).

T-WoW staff have stated 2v2 Blood Ring will return. And yes Paladins were DOMINATING in 2v2. It was DISGUSTING how easily they won matches.

Hard Casts have obvious counter play options. Elemental shamans spamming spells run out of mana very fast btw.
Not the mention Nature Spells are often resisted entirely... doing ZERO damage. lol!
Holy Strikes/Shocks/etc are completely unresistable of course. Utterly broken bullshit.

Night Elves racials are fine. Nature Resistance ;)
and 1% dodge is fine. and Shadowmeld is a cute and sometimes useful lil trick.

Just cuz Horde Racials are OP in PVP doesnt mean Ally Racials are dogshit per-se.

[Krotux]

Just cuz Horde Racials are OP in PVP doesnt mean Ally Racials are dogshit per-se.

If one is OP then the other is dogshit, that's just how it is lol

You guys have massive horde bias. "Racials are balanced because horde ones are OP, it's ok. Paladins, though, BROKEN NERF NOW!!!"

[Gantulga]

Horde racials are largely fine, except hardiness and maybe plainsrunning.

Hardiness is just a pinnacle of retarded design.I'd rather it be changed into a stun removal on cooldown. At least then you'd be expecting it and it'd create counterplay scenarios instead of having 3 stuns resisted on a row.
Plainsrunning is very silly since it grants taurens higher mobility when used properly as they don't need to spend 3 seconds mounting.

On the alliance side, humans basically have no racial since perception doesn't really do anything on this server.

[Mac]

Delete racials.

[Ortogs]

Everyone knows the horde racials are far superior to alliance racials in PVP....The alliance have 0 Offensive racials and even the defensive racials are questionable....

Horde racials offer insane offence and defensive (Orc being most prominent)

The massive imbalance means all serious PVPers roll horde while alliance is left with the trash RP'ers

It was a massive problem in Classic and I don't undersstand why twow devs made 0 adjustment here. Either remove racials completely or atleast balance alli racials.


Otherwise the Horde will continue to facerolll alliance and alliance players will just stop playing.

I personally like the original racials and would not like to see them changed, but rather have more weaponskills added.

Even still, Orc and Human weapon skill should remain 5 of X, but some other races should get 3 of X, ie, good but not on par with the original races, keeping Human and Orc exceptional. [For example Dwarf +3 Axe, Tauren +3 Mace, Undead +3 Swords, Night Elf +3 Staff and Polearm]. Chose a couple of races to get those 3 of X weapon skills, but then for other classes give 1% hit, 1% crit, so that they may benefit some other non weapon playstyles but would contend with weapon skill. Or perhaps make this a learned General Skill that would be learned, but you only get one slot to add +3 weaponskill, and only get to do it once, no swapping, in keeping with RP and more in line with racials.

As far as Paladin issues, I think some of this could be resolved. I think Shaman needs to be looked at to give Salvation and other things that are missing. Additionally, some of Shamans raid totems cant be used because Air or other totems will this up. I'd suggest making these important raid buffs castable by the shaman Similar to Fortitude.

I'd start with this before doing more stuff... shaman needs to better mirror Paladin buffs, and they have said they want to work on the Shaman Resto Tree... which is beyond bloated...

[Mac]

Allow players to choose and change their racials at an NPC for a nominal fee. You could let them buy racials either piecemeal or as a set. If piecemeal you could categorize them by type so people don’t wind up trading out something like a profession racial for something like a weapon skill one or an activated ability. If as a set they choose such as Human racial set, Orc racial set, etc. It would be interesting to see which racials are the truly popular ones.

[Slashignore]

detecting a rogue in stealth (humans) is great
immune to poison/diseases (dwarf) is great
Shadowmeld (Night elf) is awesome
Get out of movement stuff (gnome free pvp trinket) great

they are fine
also you have paladins to make up for it!
also also become a better player instead of calling for better racials.

[Mac]

detecting a rogue in stealth (humans) is great
immune to poison/diseases (dwarf) is great
Shadowmeld (Night elf) is awesome
Get out of movement stuff (gnome free pvp trinket) great

they are fine
also you have paladins to make up for it!
also also become a better player instead of calling for better racials.

But but but the grass is so green on the other side. Look at how green other side’s grass is!

[Ortogs]

Allow players to choose and change their racials at an NPC for a nominal fee. You could let them buy racials either piecemeal or as a set. If piecemeal you could categorize them by type so people don’t wind up trading out something like a profession racial for something like a weapon skill one or an activated ability. If as a set they choose such as Human racial set, Orc racial set, etc. It would be interesting to see which racials are the truly popular ones.

I could only see this if you had to give up a racial... and the challenge is that some passive racials really suck, ie, expertise vs nature resist...

My suggestion is just let people pick up one weapons spec at 3 Expertise and just leave it at that. The other ones are good enough. Plus, the flavor is a big deal and would have to see active racials on any race...

[Mac]

Allow players to choose and change their racials at an NPC for a nominal fee. You could let them buy racials either piecemeal or as a set. If piecemeal you could categorize them by type so people don’t wind up trading out something like a profession racial for something like a weapon skill one or an activated ability. If as a set they choose such as Human racial set, Orc racial set, etc. It would be interesting to see which racials are the truly popular ones.

I could only see this if you had to give up a racial... and the challenge is that some passive racials really suck, ie, expertise vs nature resist...

My suggestion is just let people pick up one weapons spec at 3 Expertise and just leave it at that. The other ones are good enough. Plus, the flavor is a big deal and would have to see active racials on any race...

Yep, the idea is you lose your racial(s) and get another race’s racial(s) in exchange. Either as a set (so a Human could exchange all their racials for all Orc racials), or possibly one by one if you categorize them (so a Tauren could exchange their herbalism racial for a different profession racial like Gnome’s engineering one but not for say Will of the Forsaken). Just a thought.

And yeah I don’t see why there can’t be a quest at 60 or something to specialize in one weapon type.

[Lasershadow]

How about racials just get deactivated during PvP BGs and Arenas? Next fixing cheese tactics like Horde standing on roof in WSG or backdoors in AV.

It's the only way I could see anyway to end this thread besides locking it.

[Marty1980]

just play the game , stop crying