Manletow wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:39 pm
You speak very smugly and authoritatively on matters you are completely wrong about.
Jesus. I'm not the one starting my posts with "kek" or "funneh." And authoritatively? You're the one giving bare assertions about why you're right without even pretending to provide reasoning.
Unlike you, I actually went through the TBC changes and the reasoning of why it's melee DPS. I only provided a summary because you complained it was too long - now you're going to pretend that's speaking "authoritatively"? Come on man, surely you're better than that.
No, TBC changes were not "all solo DPS/melee focused". They were (objectively, factually, undeniably) designed to provide (yet even more) support to the Shamans teammates (and minorly boost the shamans own ability in some cases).
What the hell? I literally went over the TBC talent changes I was talking about.
Is giving shaman dual wield an ability which "objectively, factually, undeniably" is designed to "provide support to Shaman's teammates" and only "minorly boost the shaman's own abilities?" No, of course not, this is solo benefit for the shaman.
What about giving shaman +hit?
What about reducing shaman's threat from ONLY melee attacks?
What about halving the cooldown of, and more than halving the mana cost of, stormstrike?
What about giving shaman's a 60% reduction on their SHOCKS after a MELEE Crit?
What about giving them spellpower/healing based on their attack power, and reducing the cost of shocks?
What about giving them an ability that regenerates mana on melee hit with such amount based on attack power?
Just absurd that you could even claim these are designed to support others. And these are 7 of the 8 changes to enhance's talents! (or 6 of the 7 if you group dual wield and hit, even though they are two separate talents).
Yes, they do a shitty battleshout, though as I pointed out, it needs a melee crit, lasts no time, doesn't cost mana, and benefits from AP. But fine, let's give it to you. Of the 8 (or 7, if you want to count DW as one, when it's not), changes, ONLY 1 can even conceivably be called something "designed to support shaman's teammates" which only "minorly boosts the shaman's own abilities."
THAT'S 1 OF 8!
It's called "Enhancement" because it 'Enhances" the abilities/effectiveness of teammates as its primary function. It's really quite self-explanatory.
And there it is. An argument so nuts that it would be bad faith for me to even ascribe it to you, and yet somehow, you seize it willingly. I guess Arms warrior is all about giving weapons to other classes. I guess discipline priest is all about spanking you because you've been a bad boy. I guess balance druid is all about tightrope walking. Like wtf?
Also, even if we say the name is the ultimate arbiter (which, and I cannot stress this enough, lmao), we're talking about a tree in which 46 of the points only help enhance, 4 help both enhance and other party members, and 2 are only for the benefit of others. It's obvious what's being enhanced here are your own abilities, rather than others.
Note: In early Vanilla the Enhancement talent tree was even more Support/Totem based. It was revamped during late Vanilla.
What? No it wasn't. Grace of air and strength of the earth were split, so that's a straight up nerf to your ability to support others. Defensive totems was stoneskin only, it didn't improve windwall or (crucially) grounding totem. There was no improved weapon totem at all. There was an extra grounding totem talent, although it only situationally help (really only provides a benefit against polymorph).
So this is yet another false statement asserted by you with no evidence that crumbles when somebody actually looks at it.
No, it was not a "one man operation" lol. Just because he personally did the coding (or whatever) doesnt mean he was the 'ultimate authority'.
You seriously think that one guy was allowed absolute power over the (arguably most important aspect of the entire games design). Remarkably naive & foolish I must say.
Beyond simple common sense; take that '2005 WoW Class Panel' video I already mentioned (you could have easily found it via top Google search result in 5 seconds but whine for a link instead) wherein the class design choices were described as the result of "team brainstorming/discussion/debate".
There's only 6 people credited as "game designers" in Vanilla's credits. Considering all the design that goes into WoW - dungeon design, raid design, zone design, how items and relatedly stats will work, what the level progression and rate will be, professions, PvP, reputation, and so on, believing that 1 of 6 would be tasked with designing the classes is really not that far-fetched at all.
As for "whining," lol. I was happy to go off of your statements about the video, and responded assuming you were right.
In fact, I did try looking for it. In the video I found, they state they wanted to make shaman a "mage-fighter, with the emphasis mage first, fighter second" in order to differentiate it from the warrior. Mage, of course, being a pure DPS class, so the actual statement is about shaman being a DPS that does hybrid damage - which meshes perfectly with the changes they got in TBC (seriously - attack power to spell power, melee crit to free shot, regenerate mana based on attack power, lower CD stormstrike which sets them up for a bonus damage earthshock) and wrath (which I've gone over with you twice now).
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume there's some other video you were quoting, which is why I went off your statement. It seems like you're mad that I didn't assume you either intentionally or incompetently misquoted this video in a way that benefits you - that is, you incorrectly stated "caster," as you want some ambiguity over it being a support, rather than stating mage, which is DPS.
If you are merely playing petty "technicality games" then yes you are perhaps correct on the notion that Shaman was "originally intended to be a melee DPS class". This is because it was said Shaman was (at its most early, primitive, doodle-on-scrap-paper level conception) imagined to be simply a "savage fighter with a spear".
This half-baked idea was swiftly (and wisely) thrown straight into the trash as it would make Shaman too similar to the existing Warrior class.
They quickly switched gears to make Shaman into a caster/support/medicine man class instead. This is the version of Shaman that wound up getting placed into the beta/alpha/final game.
If you're going off the class panel, they are talking about the shaman class generally, rather than enhancement in particular. I agree that there's a caster/support/medicine man shaman spec, we call it resto. That's why it has a whole bunch of healing bonuses. That's why it has increased totem range (which is more important than every other totem talent shamans have combined). That's why its capstone talent is, in fact, a totem. I see nowhere in there that they intended enhance to be a support class. Again, the closest description we get is "mage-fighter" which reads unabashedly DPS.
Frankly I don't particularly concern myself with private-server, Discord-chatting, expert-filled Premade v Premade battles as this scenario is not representative of 99% of Turtle WoW PvP.
But yes I agree Mortal Strike can be useful in some niche scenarios.
However, one relatively minor gimmick does not make a class good overall.
(Also, not all Warriors have Mortal Strike. And it costs 30 rage. And you have to be within melee range to use it.)
It seems tho that you have enough sense to admit Warrior is a generally weak class in PVP. Thats good.
I specifically asked what context we were talking about here. Not sure where all this hostility is coming from.
And you're free to weigh things differently. The "niche scenario" you are talking about is any serious group PvP where you're pushing for gear. I give this more weight because you are simply locked out of this playstyle if you are playing a shit class (e.g. enhancement shaman) and not if you're playing a warrior. Meanwhile, anybody can get a friend or two and roam around in WPVP if that's what they're after, no such class restriction.
Also, if you ever tried queueing as horde side on Nostalrius, Elysium, or even Classic WoW, there was like an 80% chance that you would run into this sort of premade comp.
As for Enhancement in PVP: Yes they actually do have something(s) like that (reducing healing on an enemy/disrupting enemies abilities/free movement):
Its called Purge (a very cheap spell w/ 30 yard range that removes 2 HoTs/Absorb Shields/Buffs/etc), Earth Shock (to interrupt healing/spell casts + short silence), and Earthbind Totem is highly effective at impeding entire groups movement.
I agree that purge is a good ability, although it's certainly nowhere near mortal-strike level. But you can accomplish the same thing with a priest, who can also defensively dispel as well. Or you can accomplish the same thing with a 30/0/21 shaman, who will actually have the mana pool to support spamming it.
You're unironically pointing to shaman's CC, which is widely accepted to be the WORST out of any class as an example of it being good at PvP. They are literally the only class that doesn't have a hard cc. Their earthbind totem is easily removed with a wand or pet or instacast fireblast or...
Sorry man but you are not half as smart/knowledgeable as you think you are and it's quite tedious explaining the countless ways in which you're either: totally wrong or mostly-wrong. At least you have enough of a brain to make arguments tho. A rare trait!
Ok bud. I see a touched a nerve by actually pointing out the myriad ways you were wrong.
