Again, Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shaman

[Dracarusggotham]

I'm still against the PvP server but now, there's no fixing it.
But, I read something recent and TWoW Team, don't do it, don't break the lore like that.
Not Undead Paladins and Dwarven Shamans, nor does PvP justify such a thing.
The simplest solution I see is to buff the shaman instead of going the easy way and making up any cheap excuse to get the paladin into the horde.
That would be starting to make the same mistakes as Blizzard.
This way the only thing you will do is alienate players who for one reason or another give Tel'abim a chance, yes, I mean all those who value lore over PvP.

[Gnomoerectus]

"Yes, I could have posted In one of the dozen or so threads discussing this topic but my opinion is so important that I'd rather make a new one."

[Dracarusggotham]

"Yes, I could have posted In one of the dozen or so threads discussing this topic but my opinion is so important that I'd rather make a new one."

If you feel offended for this, don't read it.
It's very simple my friend.

[Gnomoerectus]

"Yes, I could have posted In one of the dozen or so threads discussing this topic but my opinion is so important that I'd rather make a new one."

If you feel offended for this, don't read it.

Don't worry, I didn't.

[Darktifa]

I think i have read about this before...
Wait a minute!!!

Instead of going the easy route and putting something as Anti-Vanilla as Paladins in the Horde and Shamans in the Alliance, which neither race fits to be.
They should just make the shaman OP, after all the Paladin no matter what they do will always be OP, so, give the Horde an OP class and everyone is happy, break the Shaman just as the Paladin is broken and everyone is happy.

But Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans...no, no please, stop asking for such stupidity.

PvP does not justify breaking the lore in such a way, otherwise, they would simply have made a server with each character that is created at Level 60 with the last tier equipped and all the available classes and matter fixed.

[Paw]

WHEN???

[Leyna]

Actually...(Nerdge lmao) Lorewise Dwarfs ARE shamans... UD paladins may be a thing after breaking from the chains of the lich king their faith may be reborn if they were paladins back in life even tho I'm personally more a fan of Sunwalkers (Taurens) as I feel they're thematically more attractive than UD and playwise there's already a shit ton of UD but not so many Taurens.

[Wormrider]

nope. keep horde clean of pallies.

[Turboman]

Actually...(Nerdge lmao) Lorewise Dwarfs ARE shamans... UD paladins may be a thing after breaking from the chains of the lich king their faith may be reborn if they were paladins back in life even tho I'm personally more a fan of Sunwalkers (Taurens) as I feel they're thematically more attractive than UD and playwise there's already a shit ton of UD but not so many Taurens.

My ass. Dwarves are diggers and crafters, just because some of them call themselves "Wild Hammer" doesnt mean that they commune with the spirits of their ancestors or elements. And idgaf about lightning hammers that dwarves were throwing in wc3, it was just a visual effect.
As for sunwalkers: Anshe. Elune and Holy Light are three completely different entities. Anshe and Elune are basically part of Azeroths natural trio with the third one being the Earth Mother, literally three big forces of Azeroths nature. Holy light on the other hand is a fundamental force of wc universe, the opposite of which is the void. So dont tell me that a tauren can become a paladin that wields the power of holy light by worshipping the sun, thats not how it works there.

[Leyna]

Actually...(Nerdge lmao) Lorewise Dwarfs ARE shamans... UD paladins may be a thing after breaking from the chains of the lich king their faith may be reborn if they were paladins back in life even tho I'm personally more a fan of Sunwalkers (Taurens) as I feel they're thematically more attractive than UD and playwise there's already a shit ton of UD but not so many Taurens.

My ass. Dwarves are diggers and crafters, just because some of them call themselves "Wild Hammer" doesnt mean that they commune with the spirits of their ancestors or elements. And idgaf about lightning hammers that dwarves were throwing in wc3, it was just a visual effect.
As for sunwalkers: Anshe. Elune and Holy Light are three completely different entities. Anshe and Elune are basically part of Azeroths natural trio with the third one being the Earth Mother, literally three big forces of Azeroths nature. Holy light on the other hand is a fundamental force of wc universe, the opposite of which is the void. So dont tell me that a tauren can become a paladin that wields the power of holy light by worshipping the sun, thats not how it works there.

Okay then... So your argument is that Sunwallkers are not paladins cause they extract their ''light'' from An'she? Okay then, I guess night elves are not Priests because they extract their light from Elune. Lfukinmao

Lorewise they're not the same type of Priest and they are not the same type of paladin, gameplawise they are for obvious reasons. I swear man this people believe they're so smart and asume others don't know what they're talking about, think again. Yes, I know about the f**** lore. I have all the damn books.

[Turboman]

Actually...(Nerdge lmao) Lorewise Dwarfs ARE shamans... UD paladins may be a thing after breaking from the chains of the lich king their faith may be reborn if they were paladins back in life even tho I'm personally more a fan of Sunwalkers (Taurens) as I feel they're thematically more attractive than UD and playwise there's already a shit ton of UD but not so many Taurens.

My ass. Dwarves are diggers and crafters, just because some of them call themselves "Wild Hammer" doesnt mean that they commune with the spirits of their ancestors or elements. And idgaf about lightning hammers that dwarves were throwing in wc3, it was just a visual effect.
As for sunwalkers: Anshe. Elune and Holy Light are three completely different entities. Anshe and Elune are basically part of Azeroths natural trio with the third one being the Earth Mother, literally three big forces of Azeroths nature. Holy light on the other hand is a fundamental force of wc universe, the opposite of which is the void. So dont tell me that a tauren can become a paladin that wields the power of holy light by worshipping the sun, thats not how it works there.

Okay then... So your argument is that Sunwallkers are not paladins cause they extract their ''light'' from An'she? Okay then, I guess night elves are not Priests because they extract their light from Elune. Lfukinmao

Lorewise they're not the same type of Priest and they are not the same type of paladin, gameplawise they are for obvious reasons. I swear man this people believe they're so smart and asume others don't know what they're talking about, think again. Yes, I know about the f**** lore. I have all the damn books.

They receive her blessings and powers, not the Lights blessings and powers. Why are you even telling me this if you prove my point in you second paragraph? Yes they are not the same, cause they draw their powers from different sources and they should've receive different visuals from blizz devs to point that out.
The horde already has priests and paladins, elemental and enhancement shamans they are called. All that sunwalking shit is a retail's abomination and it should stay there. Be grateful that you can play as an undead priest at all, a literal reanimated dead rotting body wielding holy power is a nonsense and a direct contradiction to the wc3 lore.
Keep shamanism in horde and paladinery in alliance!

[Dracarusggotham]

My ass. Dwarves are diggers and crafters, just because some of them call themselves "Wild Hammer" doesnt mean that they commune with the spirits of their ancestors or elements. And idgaf about lightning hammers that dwarves were throwing in wc3, it was just a visual effect.
As for sunwalkers: Anshe. Elune and Holy Light are three completely different entities. Anshe and Elune are basically part of Azeroths natural trio with the third one being the Earth Mother, literally three big forces of Azeroths nature. Holy light on the other hand is a fundamental force of wc universe, the opposite of which is the void. So dont tell me that a tauren can become a paladin that wields the power of holy light by worshipping the sun, thats not how it works there.

Okay then... So your argument is that Sunwallkers are not paladins cause they extract their ''light'' from An'she? Okay then, I guess night elves are not Priests because they extract their light from Elune. Lfukinmao

Lorewise they're not the same type of Priest and they are not the same type of paladin, gameplawise they are for obvious reasons. I swear man this people believe they're so smart and asume others don't know what they're talking about, think again. Yes, I know about the f**** lore. I have all the damn books.

They receive her blessings and powers, not the Lights blessings and powers. Why are you even telling me this if you prove my point in you second paragraph? Yes they are not the same, cause they draw their powers from different sources and they should've receive different visuals from blizz devs to point that out.
The horde already has priests and paladins, elemental and enhancement shamans they are called. All that sunwalking shit is a retail's abomination and it should stay there. Be grateful that you can play as an undead priest at all, a literal reanimated dead rotting body wielding holy power is a nonsense and a direct contradiction to the wc3 lore.
Keep shamanism in horde and paladinery in alliance!

Finally someone who uses the common sense here.
I said it in the main post, the best way is buff the shamans instead of adding the Paladins to the Horde, that's a contradiction to the main lore of WC3.
Paladins are a sacred class of the Alliance, literally only the humans are paladins in WC3, you don't a Dwarf or an Elf Paladin there.
Then, what class you will make Paladin in the Horde?
Tauren? All players hated it, it's totally stupid make a cow a paladin, the sunwalkers where a stupid and a cheap excuse for make that cows paladins, the class don't fits with them.
Undead? Man, I can't say all the things what are bad with this, main, the Holy Light only obeys the good beings, and Uther said it in Warcraft 3, "Arthas, we're paladins, the vengeance isn't part of our matters". And what's the main focus of the Forsaken race? kill Arthas! And they don't have good intentions, even the Horde doesn't trust in them. Then, where they will obtain their powers? and no, the Dark paladins don't exist, in that case only create a new class and put them the name "Dark Knights" and there make any race of the Horde be that.
The orcs, trolls and goblins don't fit with the Paladin class, and I don't need to explain why.
Now, shamans, I only need to explain one, Wildhammer Dwarfs, no, they're not shamans, they're more like hunters or beast masters, no shamans, in the entire WoW Classic they don't showed any shaman ability.
So, you want a Paladin? join the Alliance.
you want a Shaman? join the Horde.

[Kefke]

"Yes, I could have posted In one of the dozen or so threads discussing this topic but my opinion is so important that I'd rather make a new one."

If you feel offended for this, don't read it.
It's very simple my friend.

I've always hated this response. It's so stupid. How are people supposed to know something's going to offend them before they read it?

[Slashignore]

UD paladins and Dwarf Shamans WHEN?!

[Mativh]

There are two paths, none are wrong.

Dwarven Shamans and especially Forsaken Paladins make more sense lore-wise than Alliance Warlocks and Horde Druids. Either retcon all or none.

If Shamans should be Horde only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Warlocks.
If Paladins should be Alliance only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Druids.

[Paw]

Why be reasonable when you can just turn the world upside down?

[Shammylover67]

I'm still against the PvP server but now, there's no fixing it.
But, I read something recent and TWoW Team, don't do it, don't break the lore like that.
Not Undead Paladins and Dwarven Shamans, nor does PvP justify such a thing.
The simplest solution I see is to buff the shaman instead of going the easy way and making up any cheap excuse to get the paladin into the horde.
That would be starting to make the same mistakes as Blizzard.
This way the only thing you will do is alienate players who for one reason or another give Tel'abim a chance, yes, I mean all those who value lore over PvP.

Why are we valuing lore over PvP on the PvP server?

Alliance shaman with VANILLA talents, VANILLA values and VANILLA gameplay is nothing like what blizzard has done. Bad argument my friend. It is a major fix for the population and balance of the PVP server that will encourage people to play both factions for a long time to come.

[Jolikmc]

I like a little chaos. But, no. Forsaken Paladins don't "make more sense lore-wise than Alliance Warlocks and Horde Druids".

My thoughts on…
Forsaken Paladins

According to the (original) lore, working with the Holy Light really hurts the Frosaken because they were raised with dark magicks. Speculation says that Forsaken "Priests" are pretty much in constant agony as they heal others, and those they heal probably get kind of a "burn-heal" effect, too, where it heals them more than it hurts them, but it does hurt them.
Now, Priests have "big heals", rapid-fire Holy attack spells, and the like… but Paladins are pretty much constantly using Holy magic. If a Forsaken were to try and focus the Light into the powers of a Paladin, it would probably overwhelm them and destroy their bodies exponentially faster than they could heal themselves. But again, this is mostly – if not entirely – speculation.

Alliance Warlocks

On the topic of Alliance Warlocks, if you look around the Alliance cities, you'll notice that Warlock NPCs are generally stuck in some out-of-the-way place, like graveyards or underground. These NPCs also warn players that if they could easily be destroyed by the fel magicks that bind demons and cast hellfire. The first edition of the Warcraft RPG scenario guide even says that only characters with an "evil" alignment are allowed to be Warlocks. However… I have to strongly disagree with that aspect.
Good people can use "bad" magic for good purposes. Bad people can use "good" magic for bad purposes, too. Personally, I subscribe to the idea that as an Alliance Warlock, you should be shunned, somewhat, and if you're stupid enough to run around town with your Voidwalker or Imp following behind, they should ask you to leave. I'm not saying it should ever be a mechanic in-game. I'm just saying, if we're talking lore and story stuff… this should be the normal reaction.

Horde Druids

And lastly I see no problem with Horde Druids. The Tauren and Trolls are the most spiritual of all the Horde races, so it makes sense that they'd have a deep connection with nature. The Tauren, in particular, have an entire religion that focuses on nature, the planet, and the symbiotic connection between themselves and other living things. If any one race on the Horde side would be able to tap into Druidic powers, it would be the Tauren.
And since I mentioned it, Trolls are, indeed, spiritual. However, they're more focused on animal gods than nature. They could potentially tip-toe over to being more about the planet and could potentially figure out Druidism… Some of them can already shapeshift into animal forms which resemble their Lua gods. But, for the most part, they're pretty content just worshiping animals and leaving the greater whole of nature alone.

[Shammylover67]

Can someone please for the love of the light tell me how people keep talking about faction uniqueness when there is cross-faction grouping???

Really? You will have a full alliance group with one shaman but it’s all good cause it’s an Orc? It would ruin your world if that shaman was also a dwarf?

Get real lol.

[Jolikmc]

Can someone please for the love of the light tell me how people keep talking about faction uniqueness when there is cross-faction grouping???

Really? You will have a full alliance group with one shaman but it’s all good cause it’s an Orc? It would ruin your world if that shaman was also a dwarf?

Get real lol.

This was the argument that made me side with Shammylover67 on this matter in another topic.

On the ("RP-")PvE realm, you can have a Horde Shaman in your Alliance party, or an Alliance Paladin in your Horde party. This same courtesy should be extended to the PvP realm in some fashion or another. I still don't think Forsaken is a good fit for Paladins, and I'm not 100% sure that Dwarves are a good choice for Shamans… but I'm sure someone can figure out a way to make something work. Preferably without suggesting that Humans, who already have a whopping seven playable classes, also get the Shaman class.

(Gnome "witch doctors", maybe?)

[Shammylover67]

So take a deep breath but almost every single enemy dwarf in the game communes with the elemental gods. Works with fire elementals, serves the powers of ragnaros, the wind lord, etc.

They are the OG SHAMAN

[Shammylover67]

Can someone please for the love of the light tell me how people keep talking about faction uniqueness when there is cross-faction grouping???

Really? You will have a full alliance group with one shaman but it’s all good cause it’s an Orc? It would ruin your world if that shaman was also a dwarf?

Get real lol.

This was the argument that made me side with Shammylover67 on this matter in another topic.

On the ("RP-")PvE realm, you can have a Horde Shaman in your Alliance party, or an Alliance Paladin in your Horde party. This same courtesy should be extended to the PvP realm in some fashion or another. I still don't think Forsaken is a good fit for Paladins, and I'm not 100% sure that Dwarves are a good choice for Shamans… but I'm sure someone can figure out a way to make something work. Preferably without suggesting that Humans, who already have a whopping seven playable classes, also get the Shaman class.

(Gnome "witch doctors", maybe?)

Consider the amount of dwarves serving the Twilight’s Hammer. They are in essence, “Dark Shamans” , controlling the elements through the power of the elemental lords. This is a badass part of WC lore. Just as you stated above about alliance warlocks using bad magic for good… reformed dark shamans could be the exact same.

[Jolikmc]

You know… I forgot about that, entirely. You're absolutely right. I think I see why Blizzard did it the way they did, now.

Why are you so good at this "point-and-counterpoint" thing, my man?

[Shammylover67]

You know… I forgot about that, entirely. You're absolutely right. I think I see why Blizzard did it the way they did, now.

Why are you so good at this "point-and-counterpoint" thing, my man?

Haha I’m glad we can chat about such a great universe. It’s fun and like you, I’m passionate about the most complete vanilla WoW that we can make.

[Turboman]

There are two paths, none are wrong.

Dwarven Shamans and especially Forsaken Paladins make more sense lore-wise than Alliance Warlocks and Horde Druids. Either retcon all or none.

If Shamans should be Horde only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Warlocks.
If Paladins should be Alliance only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Druids.

It would be a dream come true, but blizzard decided to choose the easy way.

[Paw]

There are two paths, none are wrong.

Dwarven Shamans and especially Forsaken Paladins make more sense lore-wise than Alliance Warlocks and Horde Druids. Either retcon all or none.

If Shamans should be Horde only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Warlocks.
If Paladins should be Alliance only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Druids.

It would be a dream come true, but blizzard decided to choose the easy way.

There are still open spots in the realmlist to open a Vanilla-.

[Turboman]

There are two paths, none are wrong.

Dwarven Shamans and especially Forsaken Paladins make more sense lore-wise than Alliance Warlocks and Horde Druids. Either retcon all or none.

If Shamans should be Horde only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Warlocks.
If Paladins should be Alliance only for the sake of faction identity, then so should be Druids.

It would be a dream come true, but blizzard decided to choose the easy way.

There are still open spots in the realmlist to open a Vanilla-.

I wish i had a sufficient programming knowledge, i would definitely tried to do something like that.

[Jolikmc]

There are still open spots in the realmlist to open a Vanilla-.

Wait. Is there interest in a "Vanilla Minus" type realm / server? I know there's interest in Alpha servers and such… What would a "Vanilla Minus" realm entail, anyway? Strictly adhering to the old Warcraft RPG rules?

[Charanko]

Okay then... So your argument is that Sunwallkers are not paladins cause they extract their ''light'' from An'she? Okay then, I guess night elves are not Priests because they extract their light from Elune. Lfukinmao

Lorewise they're not the same type of Priest and they are not the same type of paladin, gameplawise they are for obvious reasons. I swear man this people believe they're so smart and asume others don't know what they're talking about, think again. Yes, I know about the f**** lore. I have all the damn books.

They receive her blessings and powers, not the Lights blessings and powers. Why are you even telling me this if you prove my point in you second paragraph? Yes they are not the same, cause they draw their powers from different sources and they should've receive different visuals from blizz devs to point that out.
The horde already has priests and paladins, elemental and enhancement shamans they are called. All that sunwalking shit is a retail's abomination and it should stay there. Be grateful that you can play as an undead priest at all, a literal reanimated dead rotting body wielding holy power is a nonsense and a direct contradiction to the wc3 lore.
Keep shamanism in horde and paladinery in alliance!

Finally someone who uses the common sense here.
I said it in the main post, the best way is buff the shamans instead of adding the Paladins to the Horde, that's a contradiction to the main lore of WC3.
Paladins are a sacred class of the Alliance, literally only the humans are paladins in WC3, you don't a Dwarf or an Elf Paladin there.
Then, what class you will make Paladin in the Horde?
Tauren? All players hated it, it's totally stupid make a cow a paladin, the sunwalkers where a stupid and a cheap excuse for make that cows paladins, the class don't fits with them.
Undead? Man, I can't say all the things what are bad with this, main, the Holy Light only obeys the good beings, and Uther said it in Warcraft 3, "Arthas, we're paladins, the vengeance isn't part of our matters". And what's the main focus of the Forsaken race? kill Arthas! And they don't have good intentions, even the Horde doesn't trust in them. Then, where they will obtain their powers? and no, the Dark paladins don't exist, in that case only create a new class and put them the name "Dark Knights" and there make any race of the Horde be that.
The orcs, trolls and goblins don't fit with the Paladin class, and I don't need to explain why.
Now, shamans, I only need to explain one, Wildhammer Dwarfs, no, they're not shamans, they're more like hunters or beast masters, no shamans, in the entire WoW Classic they don't showed any shaman ability.
So, you want a Paladin? join the Alliance.
you want a Shaman? join the Horde.

people take classess too literaly… each faction has their own unique priests in lore and what they worship …they do not all pray to the light or use shadow… they are just the same class for sake of gameplay… trolls are voodoo priest who dont use holy magic,but that use shadowmagic and voodoo spirit shit,kinda like shamen …and ud shadow...but in terms of gameplay they just use holy spells to heal like every other race …etc you know what i mean… they kinda point to that with their unique racials… redesigning the whole class for each race would just be too much work…

but yea i agree 100% with what u wrote

[Paw]

There are still open spots in the realmlist to open a Vanilla-.

Wait. Is there interest in a "Vanilla Minus" type realm / server? I know there's interest in Alpha servers and such… What would a "Vanilla Minus" realm entail, anyway? Strictly adhering to the old Warcraft RPG rules?

I can imagine something similar. To clean up the loose ends in the game and instead of creating more you take away and recreate.

[Allwynd01]

Actually...(Nerdge lmao) Lorewise Dwarfs ARE shamans... UD paladins may be a thing after breaking from the chains of the lich king their faith may be reborn if they were paladins back in life even tho I'm personally more a fan of Sunwalkers (Taurens) as I feel they're thematically more attractive than UD and playwise there's already a shit ton of UD but not so many Taurens.

Why do you want nonsensical crap added to the game? Just download your own Vanilla WoW server files, host your own servers and add Demon Hunters and Monks to it if you like.

[Elenar]

Haha, I was thinking about same thing while ago. Always wanted to play Undead paladin. Was thinking about what race alliance should get as shaman, dwarf will do. (or human?)

[Sinrek]

https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/we-dont-do ... f-16558003

[Fresharugula]

+1

Just do it already.