Racism and "Racism"

[Jolikmc]

Firstly, I'd like to share this post I made in another topic.

It's an indisputable fact that when Blizzard stupidly shut down operations in China, a lot of Chinese players still wanted to play World of Warcraft and flocked to Turtle WoW. It's also indisputable, as well as proven, that once Chinese players started playing here, the server started to see a lot more problems, such as resource nodes becoming almost impossible to find and communication breakdowns between players. These statements, in and of themselves, are not "racist". However, the problem isn't limited to any specific region.
Turtle WoW was simply not prepared for the influx of users and scrambled to find solutions – which included limiting traffic from China, for a bit, because that's where the most players were coming from. While that might sound "racist", I'd like to point out that it could have been players from China, or it could have been players from Venezuela, and the end result would have been the same – overpopulation and stretched resources leading to Turtle Team putting a (very poorly implemented) "traffic limiter" on that region.

Turtle Team has never been anti-Chinese. If anything, I'd like to think that Turtle Team has been extremely kind and generous to the Chinese players, in particular, even going as far as to strike up a deal with some people to try and get a Chinese server up. That server apparently sucks due to corruption and bootlegging of content, but the thought was there. Inversely, however, there actually is a lot of "anti-Chinese" sentiment on these forums, whether it be intentional (shame on you) or incidental (shame on you).
A lot of people are pretty stupid about how they phrase things. Instead of saying something well-thought, most people end up saying things like "remove China" or "I hate Chinese players". Some players may actually mean this exactly as stated. However, most people are just idiots who won't or can't use their words better. And, that's what I meant by "incidental anti-Chinese sentiment".

For those who are guilty of "anti-Chinese rhetoric": the next time you're about to say something against an entire region of players, do bear in mind that unquantified statements may make you appear ignorant and angry. Angry, you may be, but I'd like to think that at least some of you aren't as ignorant as you appear to be.

Choose your words more carefully.

To that, I'd like to add the following: this applies to you, too, moderators. You need better judgment when deciding to lock a topic. Not every topic that talks about racism goes against the forum rules and policies. Incidentally, you could stand to make the forum rules and policies a little easier to find. I spent five minutes trying to find them and came up empty. Whenever you close a topic, consider linking to the rules you keep referencing.

Thank you,
J

[Bigsmerf]

Another based post from the man himself. Love ya Jolik.

[Paw]

It is hard not to join a conversation revolving around similar issues. People step in for defense and it escalates.

The rules of the forum are the same you have in-game and discord.

The problem is that it is hard to moderate a complex thread with many different opinions and decide if you should call it off, interact or let it sit. In the best case scinario people end up in agreement. However every discussion might get out of hand before it reaches conclusion and in those cases involvement is neccessairy in order to keep the language flow in a civilised manner. Locking a thread at the right time is a very great tool ideally in similar cases.

Regarding the thread we are talking about. The title itself is a slur and it is offensive. I would have deleted it on spot and ban the person for a week.

[Jamey]

We close a topic for a number of reasons. The same that applies in public channels applies here too. Added to that, if a topic doesn't add any more useful information and goes off-topic or gets to personal insults then we close / lock it too. We can have a link here that links back to the main website rules but that's about it. Using any of our services holds you to those rules.

[Bigsmerf]

Regarding the thread we are talking about. The title itself is a slur and it is offensive.

Unless we're thinking of different titles of different topics, nothing about the word "Chinese" is either a slur or offensive. It's just an ethnicity. A race. A group of certain people from a certain place, with a certain background and certain culture.

[Paw]

Regarding the thread we are talking about. The title itself is a slur and it is offensive.

Unless we're thinking of different titles of different topics, nothing about the word "Chinese" is either a slur or offensive. It's just an ethnicity. A race. A group of certain people from a certain place, with a certain background and certain culture.

You failed to propose a question. I don't know how to proceed!

[Roan1313]

Regarding the thread we are talking about. The title itself is a slur and it is offensive.

Unless we're thinking of different titles of different topics, nothing about the word "Chinese" is either a slur or offensive. It's just an ethnicity. A race. A group of certain people from a certain place, with a certain background and certain culture.

You failed to propose a question. I don't know how to proceed!

No question needed. No need to proceed. He made a statement and you took and understood what it means.

[Bigsmerf]

Regarding the thread we are talking about. The title itself is a slur and it is offensive.

Unless we're thinking of different titles of different topics, nothing about the word "Chinese" is either a slur or offensive. It's just an ethnicity. A race. A group of certain people from a certain place, with a certain background and certain culture.

You failed to propose a question. I don't know how to proceed!

Basically what Roam said. I'm providing a counter argument for your claim that the title of the recently locked post regarding the Chinese population on Tel'abim was somehow "A slur" and "Offensive". I'm not sure where the need for my reply to be a question stems from.

[Paw]

Unless we're thinking of different titles of different topics, nothing about the word "Chinese" is either a slur or offensive. It's just an ethnicity. A race. A group of certain people from a certain place, with a certain background and certain culture.

You failed to propose a question. I don't know how to proceed!

No question needed. No need to proceed. He made a statement and you took and understood what it means.

This escalated quickly.

[Roan1313]

You failed to propose a question. I don't know how to proceed!

No question needed. No need to proceed. He made a statement and you took and understood what it means.

This escalated quickly.

Don't instigate.

[Paw]

No question needed. No need to proceed. He made a statement and you took and understood what it means.

This escalated quickly.

Don't instigate.

As you please, Sire!

[Sinrek]

To that, I'd like to add the following: this applies to you, too, moderators. You need better judgment when deciding to lock a topic. Not every topic that talks about racism goes against the forum rules and policies.
Thank you,
J

No, we just do not talk about racism. You found the rules, follow them. End of story.

[Jolikmc]

I apologize for the size of this reply. I felt my responses needed the correct context and I had stuff to say. ;v;

It is hard not to join a conversation revolving around similar issues. People step in for defense and it escalates.

The problem is that it is hard to moderate a complex thread with many different opinions and decide if you should call it off, interact or let it sit. In the best case scinario people end up in agreement. However every discussion might get out of hand before it reaches conclusion and in those cases involvement is neccessairy in order to keep the language flow in a civilised manner. Locking a thread at the right time is a very great tool ideally in similar cases.

We close a topic for a number of reasons. The same that applies in public channels applies here too. Added to that, if a topic doesn't add any more useful information and goes off-topic or gets to personal insults then we close / lock it too. We can have a link here that links back to the main website rules but that's about it. Using any of our services holds you to those rules.

While I definitely agree with this, I guess my frustration comes from the fact that when a thread is locked with an attached reason, as was the case today… the reason given is usually somewhat lacking.

I know that it's a nightmare to try and keep the peace in a place like this – especially when the topics turn controversial – and I know it just wouldn't be prudent for moderators or staff to read through every single post of a given topic before coming to a decision when, generally speaking, they can get the gist from the last few available posts… it still feels a little off-putting when they pop in, lock the topic, say "don't break this rule", then peace-out.

The problem also lies with the players, unfortunately. As I said in the quoted text, your average player usually swoowses in, tossed out a one-sentence post, then leaves… much… like… the moderators– hey, wait a min–!
No, but when people just do knee-jerk posts, they tend to also lack some context. Thus, there are a lot of posts which seem to give the impression that certain users actively dislikes certain groups of people for no reason other than the fact those people are who they happen to be. If people would word things a little more carefully, from time to time… then maybe topics wouldn't be closed for "breaking the rules" as often as they are.

Also.

Regarding the thread we are talking about. The title itself is a slur and it is offensive. I would have deleted it on spot and ban the person for a week.

For anyone confused by what Paw was talking about? I get it.

It's about 50% context, 50% interpretation. Given what's been going on, I can see how asking if the new server is going to be "predominantly populated by a certain group of people" might be considered offensive, if not just a little bit provoking.

Also…

The rules of the forum are the same you have in-game and discord.

We can have a link here that links back to the main website rules but that's about it. Using any of our services holds you to those rules.

I'm gonna out myself, here, and say something that I get on other people about.
… I wasn't aware the website rules applied to everything related to Turtle WoW as a whole. (,:

I probably forgot, to be honest; I refer to those the rules page constantly. But, uh, yeah… it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to link to the chat rules when referring to "the forum rules". Just a polite suggestion (and semi-polite criticism).

And lastly…

No, we just do not talk about racism. You found the rules, follow them. End of story.

That's not entirely right.

The rules forbid the discussion of politics, religion, or "other socially controversial topics" in any way, but the only mention of specifically "racism" is that the rules forbid encouraging or spreading it. The rules don't discourage talking about it in a civilized manner. But I mean… it's the Internet, sooo…

And yes, I know that racism is probably a "socially controversial topic" in any context. But, I dunno. Gm's discretion?

[Sinrek]

There are ample of other platforms you can do that at. This one's not of that count. That should be crystal clear. Right?

[Jolikmc]

There are a lot of alternative locations to do a lot of things in, on, or around. Some people want to talk about certain topics here, however. Also? In this case… it was relevant to the condition of the server.

[Bigsmerf]

Personally I think we should all embrace the anti-gnome culture and make gnome killing jokes.

[Slashignore]

people needs to be thin skinned and use ignore and move on with their life instead of constantly whining to the "adults"

[Drubarrymooer]

Idk. I feel like a lot of the anti Chinese rhetoric is racism. When one states a bunch of negative attributes to one group of people and follow it up with negative statements like "they" xyz, it seems pretty clear. Its like my buddy who says saying the n-word isn't racist because "they say it" and then goes on to list a bunch of negative stereotypes and tries to defend it as not racist.

I don't think its poor phrasing/choice of words. I think it's racism point blank 99% of the time. I don't think we should be apologists for shitty behavior. If no one says anything, it will never change. People can double down on the "I'm not racist but" if they want, but don't be surprised when ppl call it out.

[Sinrek]

There are a lot of alternative locations to do a lot of things in, on, or around. Some people want to talk about certain topics here, however. Also? In this case… it was relevant to the condition of the server.

You got the message. We got the tools to enforce it. Stay safe.

[Darktifa]

From my perspective, this forum is way too lenient and tolerant with its members
Turtles are name calling or being blatantly racist and nothing is done
There is actually NO moderation

[Paw]

Until the decision is made to change the forum site to benefit those who take interest in building the community instead of favouring everyone the community will be disconnected.

The problem lies with that we know little about each other. This is a face fact but for it to change we require a platform where we have the chance to become acquinted. However with the broadening number of participants in the forum it is extremely mantiring to find, maintain and develop ideas further since every day new people pop in and give their best to express their opinions without taking into account the already present threads about any topic. They waltz in and piss all over the place, I love dogs its not that and I have two in the rental appartment below me, they stink and we must bear with it. "I have" I am partially responsible for them, they are theirs most certainly... the point is that if you wish to deepen a connection then eventually you will share sensitive information. Given the amount of dogs, boars, brids... - I grew up next to a forest engineer I could go on listing all animals- coming and going in this place it is almost impossible to share since it is more like a military facility where you don't know when will they decide to call you out for your behaviour and unless you have energy to stand straight when the time comes someone who is not an ogre but will certainly sound like it say something and bury your entire conversation like it was your fault that at the end of the day you got tired. I am giving my best to interpret the feelings of my young self when I took part in community life and was the newby. I am most certain it is not the same for everyone. However we all had parents and decieve yourself not, a game is a game for all participants. Every role must be filled and everyone must play a different role and building a community is part of the game. You can maintain it by barking at the people when they are too loud. It will allow you to become a very good guard! The other method I prioritize is that you make a selection of the people who wish to join. This way you become a great host! In order to do that however you need to set a certain barricade so that the aimless undead won't breach the town. You put your police at the gates and on patrol in the city. You clean the city so that it will invite only those who are themselves are clean. You do favour the alliance which is allright in my opinion for the time being, but right now what we have is how a horde capital looked like that's maintained by elves. Even the forsaken take better care of their city in Brill regardless though they wouldn't have to. However they do it so because to maintain order and that is what is missing. I am a Forsaken player, I do like the alliance, gnomes and dwarves are really close to what I am, could mention the taurens as well. To sum it up, when you have 10000 different flavoured cokes at your repertoire you must pick your favourites!

The end

[Jolikmc]

… that has got to be the most roundabout way anyone has ever tried to make a point. And, honestly, I'm not even sure what the point was supposed to be, for sure. My best guess, though, is that the point was something like "Turtle Team is favoring the masses over the minorities or the individuals"?

Yeah. Of course, they would. That's just good business. It's always better to have a happy majority over a disgruntled minority. Ergo, if a lot of people are saying that something is breaking the rules or otherwise disrupting the community, the moderators are pretty likely to, as I said before, just summarize based on what they discerned and close the topic rather than try and seperate fact from fiction from opinion.

I apologize if that wasn't the point you were trying to make, but you have to admit… you kind of went on a journey with that reply, Paw.

[Paw]

I used underline to make the main point. However since I addressed more than one individual in the post I decided to provide further explanation into my reasoning. What makes the letter roundabout is that I expressed my emotions along the way and seeing now, allowed myself also to make typos. [facepalm]

[Sinrek]

adressed

explonation

What makes the letter roundabout is that I expressed my emotions along the way and seeing now, allowed myself also to make typos. [facepalm]

Yes, yes, you did.

[Marafado]

ehhhhh..."Racism"...Zzzz
i think im racist in a "gamer" perspective ;p , i dont have any problem with any color of skin or country... but these "classic wow" scrubs* that join turtle in the last months have cofirmed my "racism".

*english speaking scrubs :)

ps: if they all move to fresh pvp, ill be again a no racist player ;p
ps2: tbh about the countrys i prefer democratic ones (EU, USA) for example :)
ps3: tbh2 about skin;p red ladies are top ;)

[Paw]

Yes, yes. You did.

Thank you! :) If you don't mind I would like to call you Sire from here on out since I had a lot of time outside of game and I found myself thinking that it would be more befitting.

I wish to propose a new discussion that connects to the issue at hand. It also covers my roundabout letter from before. What is holding the leading council from shutting the gates closed?

I see three options. Two of them hardly befit the turtles I know so I am declined to believe it is out of greed nor stupidity. However it is more like it is out of kindness...

From my perspective, we have a nice plant but it is overflown. At times like these the best option is to wait until the water dries and then adjust the amount. However our plant right now is out in the open yard. It is overflown since people coming and going, water it all the time regardless its needs, the rain washes it over and the lawn water distributor also showers it.

I prefer growing a plant inside a house. Unless you wish to maintain a garden or a forest I suggest bringing the plant inside!

For a community to work you must build a strong core. For it to continue living you must nurish its connections. For it to develop you must open it for others to join. In order for it to flurish you must step out of its bounds and tend to its needs whenever it signals for it as long as you have the stamina. When you run out of stamina then you ask aid from the community. Last step, even if the community ran out of stamina you start from scratch and rebuild it.

I would like to point out that we are building on the legacy of other people and we harbor part of the warcraft community that wishes to carry their legacy forward. It is not neccessairy to shoulder the entire community. It is totally fine if we just allowed ourselves to sit in this temple and close it. Then whenever we open it we will be able to stand by their legacy and hold its banners until it is yet again time to close it and allow the next generation to start from scratch.

[Borefficz]

Racism/racist has become a convenient buzzword for people to use whenever they see something they dislike/disagree with and they don't have any arguments left (or none to begin with).

[Torta]

We are doing everything in our power to ensure that both communities can have a home on our projects. This includes opening an entire Asian game network and finding the right compromises for the EU region.

Please take this conversation elsewhere, as our forums are not a place for this kind of debate. Any future threads on this matter will be deleted, and users will be locked out from our platform.