Five Year Anniversary & New European Realm!

[Lukzak]

Do not worry, I am not intending to be hostile, I am simply passionate about this because watching Blizzard slowly but surely destroy the lore of Warcraft was awful

In Warcraft III you could only heal living friendly units with Holy Light and only damage undead enemy units. Obviously you could not heal enemy living units because that is just bad game design in giant RTS battles where misclicking is easy. But the point is you cannot heal allied undead units and the only enemies you can damage with it are undead.

I agree that Turtle should do something new with the lore, but more in the sense that dumb WoW retcons like Horde blood elves/paladins and heroes like Kael, Vashj and Illidan just randomly going crazy and 100% evil should be avoided.

But if we are basing lore off of Warcraft and it doesn't make sense story-wise nor gameplay wise to heal your enemies, why would we expect Holy Light to have been used to heal undead in the game? Of course it would always have bee used offensively. I don't see anything else in the lore that says holy magic CANNOT be used to heal friendly undead. Only confirmation from wotlk era that it can be used. I know that we are ignoring lore from after vanilla, but we can still take elements from later lore if we are able to explain it in a reasonable way.

I'd also draw attention to High Inquisitor Fairbanks, the undead boss in SM Cath. He is undead, but he uses Power Word: Shield and also Heal. It is clearly possible in the game that this undead can still use holy spells. This is not for balance like making all players use the same holy spells. This is an NPC that uses holy spells when they could have given him a shadow heal like Dark Mending. Fairbanks is nowhere near as powerful as Sir Zeliek, but he still manages to channel the light offensivley against his enemies.

[Harkus]

Because you cannot heal friendly undead units in Warcraft III? You can only heal friendly living units? It is an important distinction.

As mentioned before, the interaction between the Holy Light and undead is always bad. Suddenly making it alright in Turtle would mean going against everything established in Warcraft III and Vanilla.

And Fairbanks only uses shadow and discipline spells. He also has ''heal'' but honestly that is the most basic heal spell in the game, it has no flavor at all and does not require the Holy Light, only a faith, as priests of all cults in Azeroth can use the spell. It is not the same as Holy Light. It is just a generic mending wounds spell, troll priests use it as well despite not channeling or following the Holy Light.

[Lukzak]

Because you cannot heal friendly undead units in Warcraft III? You can only heal friendly living units? It is an important distinction.

As mentioned before, the interaction between the Holy Light and undead is always bad. Suddenly making it alright in Turtle would mean going against everything established in Warcraft III and Vanilla.

And Fairbanks only uses shadow and discipline spells. He also has ''heal'' but honestly that is the most basic heal spell in the game, it has no flavor at all and does not require the Holy Light, only a faith, as priests of all cults in Azeroth can use the spell. It is not the same as Holy Light. It is just a generic mending wounds spell, troll priests use it as well despite not channeling or following the Holy Light.

When do paladins have the opportunity to play with undead as friendly units in warcraft? I admit it's been a super long time since I've played the game. How do we know that it is impossible to heal them if the paladin never had a lore reason for even trying to heal them?

Regarding Fairbanks, Dark Mending is also a basic heal spell that shadow users should use. Heal is indeed a holy spell, according to the flavor text. "Calls upon Holy magic to heal an ally". There must be a reason they chose to give the former Inquisitor a holy heal instead of a shadow heal.

https://classicdb.ch/?spell=12039

[Harkus]

When do paladins have the opportunity to play with undead as friendly units in warcraft? I admit it's been a super long time since I've played the game. How do we know that it is impossible to heal them if the paladin never had a lore reason for even trying to heal them?

Regarding Fairbanks, Dark Mending is also a basic heal spell that shadow users should use. Heal is indeed a holy spell, according to the flavor text. "Calls upon Holy magic to heal an ally". There must be a reason they chose to give the former Inquisitor a holy heal instead of a shadow heal.

https://classicdb.ch/?spell=12039

We know it is impossible because it is in the tooltip of Holy Light in Warcraft III: http://classic.battle.net/war3/human/un ... adin.shtml

Heal is only a holy spell as in it is in the holy school of magic. Because, again, player priests are heavily based on human/high elf (holy/disc) priests and undead priests (shadow). Night elves and troll do not use the Holy Light despite using holy spells like heal. 'Holy' in this case means 'divine magic' and not the Holy Light. It is simply a gameplay > lore scenario. Fairbanks uses almost exlusively player priest spells. I believe that is the reason why he has a heal instead of a dark mending. Can I prove this? No. Is it however consistent with all the other lore in Warcraft III and Vanilla? Yes. Should we allow all Forsaken to use the Holy Light because of Sir Zeliek and the dubious case of Fairbanks? I do not think so, but that is just me

[Lukzak]

When do paladins have the opportunity to play with undead as friendly units in warcraft? I admit it's been a super long time since I've played the game. How do we know that it is impossible to heal them if the paladin never had a lore reason for even trying to heal them?

Regarding Fairbanks, Dark Mending is also a basic heal spell that shadow users should use. Heal is indeed a holy spell, according to the flavor text. "Calls upon Holy magic to heal an ally". There must be a reason they chose to give the former Inquisitor a holy heal instead of a shadow heal.

https://classicdb.ch/?spell=12039

We know it is impossible because it is in the tooltip of Holy Light in Warcraft III: http://classic.battle.net/war3/human/un ... adin.shtml

Heal is only a holy spell as in it is in the holy school of magic. Because, again, player priests are heavily based on human/high elf (holy/disc) priests and undead priests (shadow). Night elves and troll do not use the Holy Light despite using holy spells like heal. 'Holy' in this case means 'divine magic' and not the Holy Light. It is simply a gameplay > lore scenario. Fairbanks uses almost exlusively player priest spells. I believe that is the reason why he has a heal instead of a dark mending. Can I prove this? No. Is it however consistent with all the other lore in Warcraft III and Vanilla? Yes. Should we allow all Forsaken to use the Holy Light because of Sir Zeliek and the dubious case of Fairbanks? I do not think so, but that is just me

In what other circumstance in lore is holy used to refer to something that is not the light? Even the word Holy is capitalized. That looks a lot like the English tendency to write god (a divine being) and God (the christian god).

Also, those are not player priest spells. They have the same name, but they are a different database ID with different values. The developers specifically gave him a holy spell when they could have given him a dark mending spell. It's not a gameplay > lore scenario because the developers could give him any spell they wanted, unlike giving players different spells.

Regarding the tooltip you linked me from warcraft, the ability seems ambiguous in its wording. It says it can heal a friendly living unit or harm an enemy undead unit.

That can be understood as that CAN heal a living unit or CAN harm an enemy undead unit. It sounds like it gives you the possibility, but it doesn't bind you. The fact that he chooses to only harm the undead makes sense in terms of the story because he wouldn't want to heal them.

That's if we just assume that the tooltip is officially how it works in lore and is not just another game mechanic

[Harkus]

In what other circumstance in lore is holy used to refer to something that is not the light? Even the word Holy is capitalized. That looks a lot like the English tendency to write god (a divine being) and God (the christian god).

Also, those are not player priest spells. They have the same name, but they are a different database ID with different values. The developers specifically gave him a holy spell when they could have given him a dark mending spell.

Holy is an actual English word, it is used many times without meaning 'Holy Light'. And if you look at WoW tooltips you can see that the devs capitalized many words that do not use capitalization normally, to emphasize gameplay purposes. In this case, to denote that the spell is part of the holy school.

Of course they are not going to give an NPC literal player spells... they have the same names, icons and effects. They are priest spells.

[Lukzak]

In what other circumstance in lore is holy used to refer to something that is not the light? Even the word Holy is capitalized. That looks a lot like the English tendency to write god (a divine being) and God (the christian god).

Also, those are not player priest spells. They have the same name, but they are a different database ID with different values. The developers specifically gave him a holy spell when they could have given him a dark mending spell.

Holy is an actual English word, it is used many times without meaning 'Holy Light'. And if you look at WoW tooltips you can see that the devs capitalized many words that do not use capitalization normally, to emphasize gameplay purposes. In this case, to denote that the spell is part of the holy school.

Of course they are not going to give an NPC literal player spells... they have the same names, icons and effects. They are priest spells.

Can you find any reference in the canon lore where holy is not used to refer to the light? My simple search of typing "holy wow lore" just provides links to articles about the light.

So if Fairbanks is using a spell from the holy school, which church is he following? According to the lore he was executed and locked in that room. Did he switch religions the moment he became undead and learn a shadow healing spell that just looks like a holy healing spell? Or simply channel the holy light that he had always known?

[Harkus]

Undead cannot channel the Light. Fairbanks is in my opinion the result of an 'careless' dev. He is just some random Scarlet priest, why would he be special? The entirety of Lordaeron's priests would not have stopped using the Light if it was that easy. Even so, none of the spells explicitly reference the Holy Light. 'Heal' is another generic English word, your skin heals after a cut. Heal being 'holy' in this case being nothing other than a gameplay mechanic. And again, many, many units use healing spells in the holy school despite not adhering to the Holy Light. Like I said, trolls, night elves

[Lukzak]

Undead cannot channel the Light. Fairbanks is in my opinion the result of an 'careless' dev. He is just some random Scarlet priest, why would he be special? The entirety of Lordaeron's priests would not have stopped using the Light if it was that easy. Even so, none of the spells explicitly reference the Holy Light. 'Heal' is another generic English word, your skin heals after a cut. Heal being 'holy' in this case being nothing other than a gameplay mechanic. And again, many, many units use healing spells in the holy school despite not adhering to the Holy Light. Like I said, trolls, night elves

I would say that he is a special case, but doesn't have to be a unique one. How many light wielders got the plague and reanimated isolated away from others? He had no way to learn the shadow magic from the other dark magic wielders. He used the abilities he still had access to.

The priests gave it up because they felt abandoned by the light and because it hurts them to use it. That doesn't mean it's impossible for them to use it.

We have already said that all player priests are using holy spells in order to make the game balanced. There is no reason to specifically give an undead priest NPC a holy spell when there are shadow spells they could have theoretically given him.

It's not just about a game mechanic. A game mechanic would be the heal being classified as a holy spell by the game, being modified by appropriate stats. That spell could have easily just said "Heals the target for X damage" without referencing Holy at all. The fact that they confirm that undead can used the light later on in the QnA shows that this was their original intention.

When I cast an corruption with my warlock, the text isn't "An affliction spell that...". Also what about his faith? You said that all priests can use holy spells, but they are different kinds of holy based on their religion. Troll holy, night elf holy, etc. So if Fairbanks was using a holy-shadow healing, how did he switch religions and learn their magic while locked in the wall ever since his execution?

[Sylveria]

When I cast an corruption with my warlock, the text isn't "An affliction spell that...". Also what about his faith? You said that all priests can use holy spells, but they are different kinds of holy based on their religion. Troll holy, night elf holy, etc. So if Fairbanks was using a holy-shadow healing, how did he switch religions and learn their magic while locked in the wall ever since his execution?

I do not pretend to know everything about the Religion of the Holy Light or the Cult of Forgotten Shadows. I can only assume, that some priests learned about the Cult of Forgotten Shadows in Secret. And when they became undead and the Light did not answer to 'em anymore (or was too dangerous to use) they turned to that forbidden knowledge they already knew, but never used. That would be one of the answers that would make sense the most.
The knowledge about the shadow and therefore the founding of the Cult of Forgotten Shadows goes back to the times of the First War, when a bishop from (Old) Stormwind explored the dark magic of the Orc Necrolytes and they asked 'emselved, why this dark magic existed in the first place. Therefore they found the balance between light and shadow. They catalogued the knowledge about it, so they would be prepared against such dark magics in the future (while same were preaching, that they had to maintain a balance between light and shadow.. Obviously the Shadow Arts were seen as heretical. But the knowledge has been discovered and cataloged. So it was there. I do not know if this knowledge was under lock or accesible for anyone, but the 'use' of it was definilty considered heretical.
At this point, again, I can only assume that this knowledge was accesible to everyone, so anyone could learn about it, but, again, the use of it was forbidden. So when Priests turned undead, i can only assume that they turned to that forbidden knowledge (which has been spread amongs the Forsaken a lot).
So it's not quite a "different Religion", but another part of it.

[Lukzak]

When I cast an corruption with my warlock, the text isn't "An affliction spell that...". Also what about his faith? You said that all priests can use holy spells, but they are different kinds of holy based on their religion. Troll holy, night elf holy, etc. So if Fairbanks was using a holy-shadow healing, how did he switch religions and learn their magic while locked in the wall ever since his execution?

I do not pretend to know everything about the Religion of the Holy Light or the Cult of Forgotten Shadows. I can only assume, that some priests learned about the Cult of Forgotten Shadows in Secret. And when they became undead and the Light did not answer to 'em anymore (or was too dangerous to use) they turned to that forbidden knowledge they already knew, but never used. That would be one of the answers that would make sense the most.
The knowledge about the shadow and therefore the founding of the Cult of Forgotten Shadows goes back to the times of the First War, when a bishop from (Old) Stormwind explored the dark magic of the Orc Necrolytes and they asked 'emselved, why this dark magic existed in the first place. Therefore they found the balance between light and shadow. They catalogued the knowledge about it, so they would be prepared against such dark magics in the future (while same were preaching, that they had to maintain a balance between light and shadow.. Obviously the Shadow Arts were seen as heretical. But the knowledge has been discovered and cataloged. So it was there. I do not know if this knowledge was under lock or accesible for anyone, but the 'use' of it was definilty considered heretical.
At this point, again, I can only assume that this knowledge was accesible to everyone, so anyone could learn about it, but, again, the use of it was forbidden. So when Priests turned undead, i can only assume that they turned to that forbidden knowledge (which has been spread amongs the Forsaken a lot).
So it's not quite a "different Religion", but another part of it.

An interesting idea. But I still don't think that solves the problem of giving him a holy spell when they had no reason to. Again, undead players use holy because it is easier as a game mechanic to have the same spells for all priest players. Such a necessity doesn't exist for NPCs, where each spell is given deliberately. He is a boss, not some random NPC generated from a template that shares the same name with multiple identical units.

He also has a shadow spell, Curse of Blood. They could have given him the shadow mend heal, but they didn't. I think they wanted to preserve the aesthetic of him being a fallen priest using the light for evil.

[Khuzomane]

I am new here. Kind of exploring the forums. Good to see updates coming! Excited for this

[Yrassso]

I am new here. Kind of exploring the forums. Good to see updates coming! Excited for this

i wish you good time here