Alliance Sham/Horde Paladin is Essential for Tel’Abim

[Shammylover67]

The number one downfall of every pvp server is population imbalance. I know devs are proposing some kind of safeguard but people will just quit instead of switching factions. By allowing horde Paladin/alliance shaman, nobody has to be left out or forced out of the class they want.

This also allows for all arena team comps to be made on both sides. What if Paladin comps are unbeatable in arena? Who is going to want to play horde? 70% alliance, 30% horde will be the death of Tel’Abim. This is such an easy thing to avoid to keep the pvp realm going strong for a very long time.

I understand the faction separation on the RP realm for lore but this is ESSENTIAL for Tel’Abim. People need to stop being so stubborn about this.

[Jolikmc]

If you want Shaman on Alliance and Paladins on Horde, you can always find a Burning Crusade server. Otherwise, deal. This is a "Vanilla+" server.

Okay, now that the typical snark is out of the way… to paraphrase from a point I made elsewhere, there's no guarantee that all of the "essential" players will do PvP. Even if they added, say, Tauren Paladins and Dwarf Shaman, then everyone rolled one, they may not want to do Battlegrounds or even World PvP. Everyone seems to think that opening all classes to all races will magically fix everything… Blizzard eventually did (mostly) this and guess what?

It didn't change much.

People are going to do what they want and then whine about it later.
That's the nature of gamers on the Internet.

[Kefke]

Even if they added, say, Tauren Paladins and Dwarf Shaman, then everyone rolled one, they may not want to do Battlegrounds or even World PvP.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but this is the PVP server we're talking about, isn't it? That means people going over there will be doing it, ostensibly, for PVP. I think that has to be taken into consideration, since obviously the needs of a PVP-centric community will be different.

[Amani]

Normally, I'd agree with you, but this is the PVP server we're talking about, isn't it? That means people going over there will be doing it, ostensibly, for PVP. I think that has to be taken into consideration, since obviously the needs of a PVP-centric community will be different.

then ppl in the main server could say they need this too,
please don't make it come true

[Jolikmc]

It is kind of a slippery slope. Enabling Shaman for Alliance and Paladins for Horde on the PvP realm, even "for balance reasons", would likely cause a lot of unrest with the RP-PvE players with roleplayers arguing the lore factor and PvE'ers arguing how "unfair" it is that the PvP realm has them but the PvE realm doesn't.

That aside, given Turtle Team's track record of "doing the bare minimum" when it comes to PvP, it seems extremely unlikely that they would make changes that specifically affect one realm rather than the whole of the game. I'd argue that they'd have to maintain two entirely different game databases due to the differences in structure, but they're already doing that since Alterac Valley is the pre-v1.11 version. So, I dunno.

They've caved before. (Chinese servers, PvE servers, "fixed" Alterac Valley…) Maybe they'll cave again. Probably not.

[Charanko]

The number one downfall of every pvp server is population imbalance. I know devs are proposing some kind of safeguard but people will just quit instead of switching factions. By allowing horde Paladin/alliance shaman, nobody has to be left out or forced out of the class they want.

This also allows for all arena team comps to be made on both sides. What if Paladin comps are unbeatable in arena? Who is going to want to play horde? 70% alliance, 30% horde will be the death of Tel’Abim. This is such an easy thing to avoid to keep the pvp realm going strong for a very long time.

I understand the faction separation on the RP realm for lore but this is ESSENTIAL for Tel’Abim. People need to stop being so stubborn about this.

True horde will play horde no matter what… but horde paladins would make me rethink if i even wanna play… thats so anti vanilla almoat like flying mounts

[Shammylover67]

Even if they added, say, Tauren Paladins and Dwarf Shaman, then everyone rolled one, they may not want to do Battlegrounds or even World PvP.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but this is the PVP server we're talking about, isn't it? That means people going over there will be doing it, ostensibly, for PVP. I think that has to be taken into consideration, since obviously the needs of a PVP-centric community will be different.

This is exactly what I’m trying to get across. Because this is a pvp realm, it is going to have a completely different culture and different needs to stay healthy. It’s like any gaming or tournament league, the stakes have to be somewhat even.

[Shammylover67]

If you want Shaman on Alliance and Paladins on Horde, you can always find a Burning Crusade server. Otherwise, deal. This is a "Vanilla+" server.

Okay, now that the typical snark is out of the way… to paraphrase from a point I made elsewhere, there's no guarantee that all of the "essential" players will do PvP. Even if they added, say, Tauren Paladins and Dwarf Shaman, then everyone rolled one, they may not want to do Battlegrounds or even World PvP. Everyone seems to think that opening all classes to all races will magically fix everything… Blizzard eventually did (mostly) this and guess what?

It didn't change much.

People are going to do what they want and then whine about it later.
That's the nature of gamers on the Internet.

Love your well written post but I respectfully disagree. I want VANILLA gameplay, and vanilla talents. PVP is about skill. This change would remove any advantages and put everything down to skill. It also stops people from quitting if their faction starts to get wrecked or they get locked out of making a character with their friends. I have a great fear that broken ret pally is going to stomp the horde.

[Shammylover67]

Guys all I keep hearing is that “this is homogenization!” “It ruins the unique factions!”

I’m sorry but.. there’s already cross play??? Makes no sense.

[Shammylover67]

Allowing both classes on either faction does not change a thing! It is the opposite of homogenization. It adds even more comp options for everyone?

Imagine someone has their heart set on a human Paladin and they get locked out of alliance… if that’s all they can do, they quit. If they look over and they’re like you know what, I will give Tauren Paladin and the horde a try. That is a huge win for Tel’Abim. Instead of just losing people completely.

[Jolikmc]

I’m sorry but.. there’s already cross play??? Makes no sense.

• There will be no chat, grouping, AH, trades, mails, or guilds between factions [on Tel'Abim]

[Shammylover67]

I’m sorry but.. there’s already cross play??? Makes no sense.

• There will be no chat, grouping, AH, trades, mails, or guilds between factions [on Tel'Abim]

Yes I know Jolik but that’s my whole point. Without cross faction grouping, alliance will have a massive advantage with Paladin. Everyone keeps telling me that cross faction sham/Paladin homogenizes the game but they’re already grouping together?? That argument makes no sense on TWoW

[Jolikmc]

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Well, that's… that's actually a really damn good point.

Yeah, I sincerely doubt that people are really being so persnickety that they absolutely need to have one Alliance or Horde race that can be a Shaman or Paladin, respectively. They just want the option to be available in terms of dungeons / partying and, of course, player-vs-player interactions.

This is the part of my reply where I would argue against this mentality for PvP interactions, specifically. But, I… can't think of a good counter. Cross-faction has really kind of stabbed the whole "no Pallies on Horde, no Shammies on Alliance" argument in the foot and I didn't realize it until now. Even the whole "well, traditionally…" argument is kind of invalid as Turtle WoW is anything but traditional. So. As I see it, Turtle WoW has two logical options they could take without actually adding Shamans to the Alliance or Paladins to the Horde:

• Disable cross-faction functionality on all realms to maintain a sense of "fairness" and "tradition".
  Or…
• Enable cross-faction functionality on the PvP realm to maintain a unique Turtle WoW tradition.

As I see it, both of these would probably upset someone (probably not the second one), and it wouldn't "fix" the whole imbalance issue with Battlegrounds, but both of which would be completely fair and possibly easier than actually adding AllyShams or Hordedins.

But, that's how I sees it.

[Shammylover67]

…
…
…

Well, that's… that's actually a really damn good point.

Yeah, I sincerely doubt that people are really being so persnickety that they absolutely need to have one Alliance or Horde race that can be a Shaman or Paladin, respectively. They just want the option to be available in terms of dungeons / partying and, of course, player-vs-player interactions.

Yes to all of the above! I’m glad you see the light. Everyone keeps responding that I want to make the game bland or ruin the spirit of vanilla. I am a pvp Server veteran and I have seen the problems happen time and time again. TWoW has a chance to cure the disease. It’s not ideal or everything that I would want but I would be happy if cross faction PvP was atleast allowed for ARENAS :) if it is truly too hard to add the classes, this is an awesome compromise.

[Wafflecrusher]

It doesn't make sense lorewise for shamans to be on alliance and paladins to be on horde. Faction identity begins to wither away with changes like this, i'm surprised those who play PvP would want this.

if you want changes to mitigate paladins dominance in BGs, then focus on the bgs themselves. If your worried about raid comps don't, people will be playing on this server do so for pvp primarily. Indeed, the phasing requests were done so for this very reason. If you're worried that alliance will dominate in wpvp don't, huge encounters in wpvp make for less than 1% of all wpvp, and turtle is like going to enforce faction balance.

If you think there are too many paladins now wait and see what will happen if they add them to the horde side. It will be world of paladins here.

These are the kinds of balancing requests that made many of us so ardently against the PvP server in the first place. No paladins on horde ever, no shamans on alliance ever.

[Gnomoerectus]

Without cross faction grouping, alliance will have a massive advantage with Paladin.

Have you considered that if a faction having exclusive access to a specific class is considered a massive advantage then the problem might just be one of bad class balance?
Adding paladins to Horde is just a bandaid.

[Ashstache]

The number one downfall of every pvp server is population imbalance. I know devs are proposing some kind of safeguard but people will just quit instead of switching factions. By allowing horde Paladin/alliance shaman, nobody has to be left out or forced out of the class they want.

This also allows for all arena team comps to be made on both sides. What if Paladin comps are unbeatable in arena? Who is going to want to play horde? 70% alliance, 30% horde will be the death of Tel’Abim. This is such an easy thing to avoid to keep the pvp realm going strong for a very long time.

I understand the faction separation on the RP realm for lore but this is ESSENTIAL for Tel’Abim. People need to stop being so stubborn about this.

time to repost my favorite picture

[Jolikmc]

I don't think the problem is the number of Paladins so much the fact that they're utterly busted.

I've heard tale of Paladins, who are equipped and buffed for it, being able to so over 10,000 damage in one hard hit and the like. Compare that to the relatively calm and balanced damage that Shamans and other classes can do – I guess around 1,000 average or 2,000-ish, max? – and this leads to players instinctively wanting to roll a Paladin. Which is Alliance-only in Vanilla.

In regard to this problem, either Paladins need to be rebalanced for PvP… which would lead to them being severely nerfed for PvE… or to give the Horde Paladins in some form, be it "traitorous" Alliance members or actual Horde Paladins.

[Gnomoerectus]

Compare that to the relatively calm and balanced damage that Shamans and other classes can do – I guess around 1,000 average or 2,000-ish, max?

Elemental Shamans can asolutely global people from range, even better than a Paladin. The main difference is that elemental Shaman damage comes mostly from the initial burst, while Paladins can keep hitting you for absurd numbers consistently and can bubble and heal themselves to full if things go south. There's also the fact that Paladins are better at tanking, farming, soloing, are more durable and get free mounts.

[Siflisk1]

Pvp imbalance is because of racials, not paladin vs shaman.
All resist racials should reduce the duration of effects, not make them not work.

Shadow priest is objectively better as horde, two options on horde vs zero on alliance.

Warlock is objectively better on horde because no will of the forsaken to fight against.

Mages best option for a racial is will of the forsaken.

Rogues are objectively better because no stun racial to fight against and racials of orcs and forsaken help cover the classes weaknesses.

Orc racial also hurts paladins in the shaman vs paladin comparison.

As a druid you'd rather have 5% more hp and a stun than shadowmeld.

[Dracarusggotham]

Instead of going the easy route and putting something as Anti-Vanilla as Paladins in the Horde and Shamans in the Alliance, which neither race fits to be.
They should just make the shaman OP, after all the Paladin no matter what they do will always be OP, so, give the Horde an OP class and everyone is happy, break the Shaman just as the Paladin is broken and everyone is happy.

But Undead Paladins and Dwarf Shamans...no, no please, stop asking for such stupidity.

PvP does not justify breaking the lore in such a way, otherwise, they would simply have made a server with each character that is created at Level 60 with the last tier equipped and all the available classes and matter fixed.

[Brandwacht]

everything is fine with the balance of fractions. brutal men go to the pvp server. they are not afraid of any difficulties. what do little whiny pve girls care about pvp servers if they are not going to play there...

[Gladeshadow]

The distinction between the factions is why we're on a vanilla server. Play a TBC server if you want that.

[Roan1313]

Even if they added, say, Tauren Paladins and Dwarf Shaman, then everyone rolled one, they may not want to do Battlegrounds or even World PvP.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but this is the PVP server we're talking about, isn't it? That means people going over there will be doing it, ostensibly, for PVP. I think that has to be taken into consideration, since obviously the needs of a PVP-centric community will be different.

This is exactly what I’m trying to get across. Because this is a pvp realm, it is going to have a completely different culture and different needs to stay healthy. It’s like any gaming or tournament league, the stakes have to be somewhat even.

I feel like alot of people who talk about PvP servers like its just a giant battleground only and overwhelming battleground queueing has never actually grew up playing on a PvP server.

Alot of us don't roll on PvP servers for the glory of pvp being the focus. It's just a way to spice up the games open world experience. Most people had been raiding PvE more than pvping from what my experience had been.

Will there be the dedicated go hard PvPers? Sure. They exist in PvE servers aswell. But balance shouldn't be a consideration based on the type of realm the server is. the current PVE TWoW has pvp and battlegrounds. Why wouldn't it have been an issue for a big push then? Why now? Because this server is labeled as a PvP server? That doesn't make it primarily a PvP exclusive experience. Hell look at how the content is somewhat phased locked. Why would they even bother if the pve isnt supposed to be a focus?

With all that said. I am not saying people here are saying pve isnt relevant on the new PvP server. It just that eventually someone does make that claim and some posts here kinda give off that vibe that because server PvP, its only for PvPers. Maybe I should put this statement at the start of my message because most will give up halfway and accuse me of saying just this lol

[Ryo3000]

"This is essential!!!"

No it's not

It's literally like the original PvP realms from vanilla wow and also from classic, "pvp realm" just means the world PvP is mandatory in certain areas.

The rest of the game stays the same lol

[Shammylover67]

The distinction between the factions is why we're on a vanilla server. Play a TBC server if you want that.

It is shocking that this argument keeps being used. So everytime a shaman joins a dungeon group of humans on the RP realm? Is tha keeping the factions unique?

A troll shaman playing with and working for the Alliance, is the Alliance. Next Counter-Argument please. We’re not discussing lore.

[Shammylover67]

Normally, I'd agree with you, but this is the PVP server we're talking about, isn't it? That means people going over there will be doing it, ostensibly, for PVP. I think that has to be taken into consideration, since obviously the needs of a PVP-centric community will be different.

This is exactly what I’m trying to get across. Because this is a pvp realm, it is going to have a completely different culture and different needs to stay healthy. It’s like any gaming or tournament league, the stakes have to be somewhat even.

I feel like alot of people who talk about PvP servers like its just a giant battleground only and overwhelming battleground queueing has never actually grew up playing on a PvP server.

Alot of us don't roll on PvP servers for the glory of pvp being the focus. It's just a way to spice up the games open world experience. Most people had been raiding PvE more than pvping from what my experience had been.

Will there be the dedicated go hard PvPers? Sure. They exist in PvE servers aswell. But balance shouldn't be a consideration based on the type of realm the server is. the current PVE TWoW has pvp and battlegrounds. Why wouldn't it have been an issue for a big push then? Why now? Because this server is labeled as a PvP server? That doesn't make it primarily a PvP exclusive experience. Hell look at how the content is somewhat phased locked. Why would they even bother if the pve isnt supposed to be a focus?

With all that said. I am not saying people here are saying pve isnt relevant on the new PvP server. It just that eventually someone does make that claim and some posts here kinda give off that vibe that because server PvP, its only for PvPers. Maybe I should put this statement at the start of my message because most will give up halfway and accuse me of saying just this lol

The current TWoW has paladins and shamans in groups!!! What are you even talking about lol

[Shammylover67]

I don't think the problem is the number of Paladins so much the fact that they're utterly busted.

I've heard tale of Paladins, who are equipped and buffed for it, being able to so over 10,000 damage in one hard hit and the like. Compare that to the relatively calm and balanced damage that Shamans and other classes can do – I guess around 1,000 average or 2,000-ish, max? – and this leads to players instinctively wanting to roll a Paladin. Which is Alliance-only in Vanilla.

In regard to this problem, either Paladins need to be rebalanced for PvP… which would lead to them being severely nerfed for PvE… or to give the Horde Paladins in some form, be it "traitorous" Alliance members or actual Horde Paladins.

Thanks for being a voice of reason. Everyone here seems completely unable to decipher that this is about population balance. How players decide to interact with a PvP realm is completely different than PvE. There is nothing to balance if everyone can choose the class they want on either side.

[Gladeshadow]

Yeah, in PvE groups. Acting like we don't know this and this is somehow a point in your favor? Nope. Move on and find a TBC server.

[Leyna]

Pvp imbalance is because of racials, not paladin vs shaman.
All resist racials should reduce the duration of effects, not make them not work.

Shadow priest is objectively better as horde, two options on horde vs zero on alliance.

Warlock is objectively better on horde because no will of the forsaken to fight against.

Mages best option for a racial is will of the forsaken.

Rogues are objectively better because no stun racial to fight against and racials of orcs and forsaken help cover the classes weaknesses.

Orc racial also hurts paladins in the shaman vs paladin comparison.

As a druid you'd rather have 5% more hp and a stun than shadowmeld.

I was thinking myself it would be nice to have both classes in both sides but... I kinda agree with this post, the horde has so much better racials for PvP... Orc, Ud and the Shadow Priest UD extra dot is insane. Edit: Fear Ward in healers is insane tho.

Honestly I'm glad Alliance has OP paladins, the only issue with them is arenas, I feel like in a closed envoirment they're severly strong, maybe I would restrict the amount of paladins (and any class really) in an arena group to one cause if you start facing 2-3 pala groups... yikes.

In BG i honestly still think horde has advantage even with paladins in the Alliance, time will prove me right or wrong.

[Ashstache]

Pvp imbalance is because of racials, not paladin vs shaman.
All resist racials should reduce the duration of effects, not make them not work.

Shadow priest is objectively better as horde, two options on horde vs zero on alliance.

Warlock is objectively better on horde because no will of the forsaken to fight against.

Mages best option for a racial is will of the forsaken.

Rogues are objectively better because no stun racial to fight against and racials of orcs and forsaken help cover the classes weaknesses.

Orc racial also hurts paladins in the shaman vs paladin comparison.

As a druid you'd rather have 5% more hp and a stun than shadowmeld.

I was thinking myself it would be nice to have both classes in both sides but... I kinda agree with this post, the horde has so much better racials for PvP... Orc, Ud and the Shadow Priest UD extra dot is insane.

Honestly I'm glad Alliance has OP paladins, the only issue with them is arenas, I feel like in a closed envoirment they're severly strong, maybe I would restrict the amount of paladins (and any class really) in an arena group to one cause if you start facing 2-3 pala groups... yikes.

In BG i honestly still horde has advantage even with paladins in the Alliance, time will prove me right or wrong.

Arenas don't matter and should never be a cause for balance changes

[Skumbanana]

all races all classes WHEN? Perfect balance!

[Roan1313]

The current TWoW has paladins and shamans in groups!!! What are you even talking about lol

What are YOU talking about? you cant battleground cross faction together. horde still have their shaman and alliance paladins. My statement still stands. world pvp is not viable/competitive pvp. and if you are talking about a ganking situation. that could be with literally any class doing the ganking.

[Turboman]

I’m sorry but.. there’s already cross play??? Makes no sense.

• There will be no chat, grouping, AH, trades, mails, or guilds between factions [on Tel'Abim]

Yes I know Jolik but that’s my whole point. Without cross faction grouping, alliance will have a massive advantage with Paladin. Everyone keeps telling me that cross faction sham/Paladin homogenizes the game but they’re already grouping together?? That argument makes no sense on TWoW

Crossfaction does not homogenizes the game, it just allows players to form groups faster. Crossfaction interactions are pure gaming convention on this server specifically, and just because its there it doesnt mean that orcish shamans are welcome in Stormwind, they are still getting attacked on sight by the npc, thus maintaining the lore based hostility between factions. Having shammies in alliance will break the integrity.
You know what, on a second thought its pvp server, i'm not even planning playing on it so i don't even know why i'm arguing. Whatever, have at it, get wild hammer shamans, they at least would look organic, tauren paladins on the other hand are funny/ridiculous looking. A big cow in shiny plate armor infused with light magic, cosplaying a white knight, idk i think it looks weird, but undead would be even more stupid.

[Turboman]

The current TWoW has paladins and shamans in groups!!! What are you even talking about lol

What are YOU talking about? you cant battleground cross faction together. horde still have their shaman and alliance paladins. My statement still stands. world pvp is not viable/competitive pvp. and if you are talking about a ganking situation. that could be with literally any class doing the ganking.

Wait didn't devs announce something about crossfaction bgs not so long ago? Or am i tripping?