Tackling pala balance is not that easy but doable. You need to lock at many things, especially burst in pvp and wf totem and procc synergy in pve.
A. Holy Strike and Seal Of Command double dip formula removed
SoC double dipping is blizzlike, the formula has always been
((70% weapon_dmg ) + spellpower bonus dmg ) *1.15, but the weapon dmg itlsef is already incrase by 15%, therefor benefitting twice from dmg multipliers on attackpower.
But this has become an issue with the addition of holy strike. The weapon_dmg in the fomula needs to be adjusted to be without dmg multipliers. This will be a MASSIVE nerf to paladin burst in pvp and, and full physical ret paladin dmg in pve and should not be done in a vacuum.
B. Soc rank 1 shouldnt be used over max rank. currently all seals give 70% adn only differcne is the judgement base dmg. We can increase the %dmg per rank slighly, rank 1 65%, rank 2 70%, rank 3 75%, rank 4 80%, rank 5 85%.
C. SoR changes
SoR is very good, especially with wf. We need to buff pala dps indepedant of wf and nerf how well we scale with proccs in general to be less lame
1. SoR talent bug fixed that the 3/6/9/13/15% dmg increase is not just baseline but also sp part
2. SoR does not double procc anymore. (still 2 jow proccs thought because every dmg source counts)
D. Crusuader strike changes:
Spamming crusader strikes for pvp pushback and proccs like frostoil and in pve to fish for wf proccs is carrying paladins. we are overreliant on it and i dont consdier hamstring fishing on warrior fun either. spammin on veery gcd needs to go
1. Give crusader strike 4.5s cd
2. Change the dmg to holy
3. Give it small scaling like Soc, thaz means 19% from holy spellpower 11% from normal sp.
4. allow crusader strike to crit (meele crit chance)
5. increase the mana cost by 30%
E. Help ret paladins always threat capped
unlike berserker stance or rogues inherent passive or all range classes, paladins have no way to reduce the threat they cause. this makes them always threat capped first. we could help a litte here
Add to the 2h weapon talent the additional affect, reduce all threat caues by 5/10/15% when righeouness furry is not active. this is the same value warrios enjoy from beserker stance
Tdlr A-E.
Less burst from Soc and holy strike prevent 3k+ mega burst
Less procc and wf dependant gameplay
More SoC and SoR dmg
Less threat for ret paladains, same as for warriors
Lets focus on protection paladins
F. Holy Shield changes
Change holy shield definiton form spell to ability, so that you can use it while being silenced just like holy strike already is and Warriors shield block is too. this will make tanking for paladins fairer. Note that warr sheild block is also of GCD while paladin holy shield requirres a GCD. that could be changed too
G. Vindication is bugged and does not work currently in pve
This talent reduces the targets strenght and agiltty when procced. the problem is, on cmangos npcs do not have strength or agllity unlike in classic where they do have it. he reuslt is the talent only works in pvp in twow but its not even worth using there.
--> Make it reduce the targets attackpower instead since npcs do have attackpower. 1 attack power per level and talent points, so at lvl 60 it would reduce the targets attackpower by 60/120/180 with 3 talent points.
H. New active abbility Argent defender 31 prot talent,
12 second CD active ability: strike your target with your shield dealing X base dmg + 200% block value + 33% sp as holy dmg. triggers redoubt on use.
This allows to keep redoubt up more reliable and with holy shield you can become crush immune, jsut like warriors allways could reliably with their 75% shield block. It also gives paladins anotheer holy trheat ability with sheild to make up for the above nerfs. currenly all prot palas are acutally ret talented isntead
I. Anticicaption talent made usefull, changed to reduced dmg by 1/2/3/4/5%
currently it gives 2/4/6/8/10 defesen with 5 points. its a total noob trap. it scales horribly into endgame too, noobody uses it in raids unless for very special cases to get crit immune.
New effect is to make up for paladins not having defesnive stance which reduces dmg by 10%. now its an intersting option for raid tanks to take instead of the shield specc talent that gives mana on the same line.
TLDR: F-I
Holy Shield made less punishing against silence
Vindication bug fixed (talent does not work currently)
Argent defnder turned into pala shield slam that also allows palads to become crush capped like warriors
Mini Defensive Stance added by changing tweaking useless anticipation talent
Bonus Suggestions:
J. Exocism
make it usable against all targets, half damage against non undead non demon.
Everytime I step into stratholme I feel like, this is it. This is how paladins should be. With a range Pull and extra holy dmg threat.
K. Seal of Crusader and Judgement of Crusader force procc nonsense rework
This seal has sooo many issues and the current force procc judgement effect that was custom twow added must die.
1. remove the dmg reductiton from the seal
2. change the judgmenet to casue an instant physical strike dealing weapon dmg + X bonus dmg dependant on rank to your target +1 other. like a mini whillwind. atleast the seal would have a niche in cleave sitatuions like this for full physical ret builds
3. alternatively just remove it from the game, thta would be better for the game than the current useless seal and sometimes op but most of the time useless force procc judgement.
L. Paladin bubble is nerfed thats the max rank version that makes you immune to dmg for 12s and reduces your dmg by 50% but you also lose aggro of npcs. there is also the low lvl version that gives 8 secund ommunity and does not allow doing any dmg while active. i suggest changing the low lvl one to a defensive cd.
On Use reduce all dmg received by 50%, and remove all debuffs on cast (doesnt make immune to new debuffs afterwards). allow attacking romaly maybe with 25% less dmg caused. this would also make bubble cancel macros obsolete
There are more issues like the taunt judgement removing seal of wisdom or generally padlin mana issues, but in my opinion these issues are not rly big enough to need changes, paladins doesnt have to be perfect and some flaws are fine, if you can work around them. i think paladins could be sonsidrerd compelte with these changes
Paladin classchanges 2.0
Re: Paladin classchanges 2.0
A, B, E: The double-dip should be removed, for sure, and yes agreed, we cant send Ret back to the Vanilla PvE abyss. I like the idea of SoC reducing threat generated while active, and let's make it one rank that does some % of AP + SP when Judged.
C: Similar to the above, I really like the idea of SoR increasing all threat generated while active, and yes, the IMP Talents need to be repaired, and perhaps even have that be your threat increase.
D, K: Remove current Crusader Strike. Bring in the TBC one as the Ret 31 pt talent. Have it replace Holy Strike and tune the AP/SP impact. Bring back normal Vanilla SotC and JotC. Buff SotC to increase proc rate of JoW/JoL and other swing based procs/weapons/etc.
F: I think the spell use weakness of Paladin gives it unique flavor. I didn't find it impactful in all too many places outside of DM.
G: Update Vindication to slow attack and casting speed by 10%. This gives Ret a unique flavored raid/group benefit and it's a VERY hard reach for Prot assuming we fix the bottom of the tree and IMP SoR.
H: Very neat idea. I've been toying in my head with an idea in the same sorta deal as this.
I: You're right, it's terrible, Anticipation is the 2nd worst talent in all of Vanilla. I would change it to provide SBV from some % of INT
J: This is a great idea but should be a talent where Sanc Aura currently sits. Make Sanc Aura available to all.
L: fine with this
M: Swap Benediction and Deflection places in tree
N: Have Reckoning proc off something other than being crit, off say block/dodge/parry/etc. I also like the idea of it resetting Holy Strike CD. Also make is 3/3 not 5/5. It's getting crowded.
O: 1H Spec should be ALL DMG and threat depending on SoR changes
P: I like the idea of Holy Shield proc resetting Consecration.
Q: Buff shield spec to 4% mana on proc
Lots of good ideas.
C: Similar to the above, I really like the idea of SoR increasing all threat generated while active, and yes, the IMP Talents need to be repaired, and perhaps even have that be your threat increase.
D, K: Remove current Crusader Strike. Bring in the TBC one as the Ret 31 pt talent. Have it replace Holy Strike and tune the AP/SP impact. Bring back normal Vanilla SotC and JotC. Buff SotC to increase proc rate of JoW/JoL and other swing based procs/weapons/etc.
F: I think the spell use weakness of Paladin gives it unique flavor. I didn't find it impactful in all too many places outside of DM.
G: Update Vindication to slow attack and casting speed by 10%. This gives Ret a unique flavored raid/group benefit and it's a VERY hard reach for Prot assuming we fix the bottom of the tree and IMP SoR.
H: Very neat idea. I've been toying in my head with an idea in the same sorta deal as this.
I: You're right, it's terrible, Anticipation is the 2nd worst talent in all of Vanilla. I would change it to provide SBV from some % of INT
J: This is a great idea but should be a talent where Sanc Aura currently sits. Make Sanc Aura available to all.
L: fine with this
M: Swap Benediction and Deflection places in tree
N: Have Reckoning proc off something other than being crit, off say block/dodge/parry/etc. I also like the idea of it resetting Holy Strike CD. Also make is 3/3 not 5/5. It's getting crowded.
O: 1H Spec should be ALL DMG and threat depending on SoR changes
P: I like the idea of Holy Shield proc resetting Consecration.
Q: Buff shield spec to 4% mana on proc
Lots of good ideas.
Re: Paladin classchanges 2.0
A thought on Ardent Defender:
Ardent Defender is pretty good for one point. If you're 30 points in Protection anyway, it's a no-brainer. Yes, there are a small handful of raid bosses that can leapfrog it, but in the other 99%+ of the game it's highly effective as a lifesaver, well worth its tiny cost, and I greatly appreciate that it's a passive ability. This game's busy enough. I remember the debates over the equivalent ability years ago during TBC (when it cost 5 points, if I recall) and the parses usually demonstrated that it did fair service but was probably overpriced as a 5-point talent. At 1 point it's fair value.
Problem with Ardent Defender is it's defacto not really a 1 point talent, it's more like a ~7 point talent because the deep Protection tree is fairly weak overall. Ardent Defender has its place, but ~7 points is a steep cost. Compounding that is the Paladin's problem with mediocre threat scaling. A lot of raiding Paladins go heavily into Ret not out of preference, but out of necessity--they have to if they want to have a ghost of a chance of keeping stuff focused on them, especially once their damage-dealers are wearing T2+ gearing. Perhaps threat scaling can be addressed somewhere in the bottom of the Protection tree?
I agree Anticipation is pretty sorry in its present state. Only problem I see is--make it good, where am I going to get the points for it? I feel spread thin already. An ideal talent tree structure should allow a player to get all his important stuff for about 42-47 points or so, leaving some freebies to play around with. Not everyone gets that, but that's the ideal.
Ardent Defender is pretty good for one point. If you're 30 points in Protection anyway, it's a no-brainer. Yes, there are a small handful of raid bosses that can leapfrog it, but in the other 99%+ of the game it's highly effective as a lifesaver, well worth its tiny cost, and I greatly appreciate that it's a passive ability. This game's busy enough. I remember the debates over the equivalent ability years ago during TBC (when it cost 5 points, if I recall) and the parses usually demonstrated that it did fair service but was probably overpriced as a 5-point talent. At 1 point it's fair value.
Problem with Ardent Defender is it's defacto not really a 1 point talent, it's more like a ~7 point talent because the deep Protection tree is fairly weak overall. Ardent Defender has its place, but ~7 points is a steep cost. Compounding that is the Paladin's problem with mediocre threat scaling. A lot of raiding Paladins go heavily into Ret not out of preference, but out of necessity--they have to if they want to have a ghost of a chance of keeping stuff focused on them, especially once their damage-dealers are wearing T2+ gearing. Perhaps threat scaling can be addressed somewhere in the bottom of the Protection tree?
I agree Anticipation is pretty sorry in its present state. Only problem I see is--make it good, where am I going to get the points for it? I feel spread thin already. An ideal talent tree structure should allow a player to get all his important stuff for about 42-47 points or so, leaving some freebies to play around with. Not everyone gets that, but that's the ideal.
Re: Paladin classchanges 2.0
I like the idea of reckoning be on parry and 3 ponts. We could also swap the parry talents to the position anticpation is at the moment to further Synergize the tree. Ret tree can habe something else instead at that position properly ret focusedJrobz wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:02 pmA, B, E: The double-dip should be removed, for sure, and yes agreed, we cant send Ret back to the Vanilla PvE abyss. I like the idea of SoC reducing threat generated while active, and let's make it one rank that does some % of AP + SP when Judged.
C: Similar to the above, I really like the idea of SoR increasing all threat generated while active, and yes, the IMP Talents need to be repaired, and perhaps even have that be your threat increase.
D, K: Remove current Crusader Strike. Bring in the TBC one as the Ret 31 pt talent. Have it replace Holy Strike and tune the AP/SP impact. Bring back normal Vanilla SotC and JotC. Buff SotC to increase proc rate of JoW/JoL and other swing based procs/weapons/etc.
F: I think the spell use weakness of Paladin gives it unique flavor. I didn't find it impactful in all too many places outside of DM.
G: Update Vindication to slow attack and casting speed by 10%. This gives Ret a unique flavored raid/group benefit and it's a VERY hard reach for Prot assuming we fix the bottom of the tree and IMP SoR.
H: Very neat idea. I've been toying in my head with an idea in the same sorta deal as this.
I: You're right, it's terrible, Anticipation is the 2nd worst talent in all of Vanilla. I would change it to provide SBV from some % of INT
J: This is a great idea but should be a talent where Sanc Aura currently sits. Make Sanc Aura available to all.
L: fine with this
M: Swap Benediction and Deflection places in tree
N: Have Reckoning proc off something other than being crit, off say block/dodge/parry/etc. I also like the idea of it resetting Holy Strike CD. Also make is 3/3 not 5/5. It's getting crowded.
O: 1H Spec should be ALL DMG and threat depending on SoR changes
P: I like the idea of Holy Shield proc resetting Consecration.
Q: Buff shield spec to 4% mana on proc
Lots of good ideas.
The only point I rly disagree with you is bringing in tbc crusader strike and removing holy strike. I think we should embrace crsuader strike as the jotc holy dmg debuff replacement here on twow and make it work. not just look to tbc/wrath.
Re: Paladin classchanges 2.0
Unpopular idea but a good one: Swap Precision with Deflection.
Rek on Parry is solid. It will result in almost a double-doink and really synergize well with..
I'm really warming to the idea of SoR adding some reliable DMG like normal but converting the whole swing to one Holy DMG hit (that CAN crit). This will half the 'procs' for JoW but if we can fix up the Mana issues elsewhere (Shield Spec to 4 or 5% and Holy Shield procs resetting Consecration), this will fix MANY things at once I think.
Rek on Parry is solid. It will result in almost a double-doink and really synergize well with..
I'm really warming to the idea of SoR adding some reliable DMG like normal but converting the whole swing to one Holy DMG hit (that CAN crit). This will half the 'procs' for JoW but if we can fix up the Mana issues elsewhere (Shield Spec to 4 or 5% and Holy Shield procs resetting Consecration), this will fix MANY things at once I think.