Regarding the raid scaling changes

[Torta]

Hello, everyone!

I'm here to address the concerns that have been expressed regarding the sudden raid scaling change. While we initially believed it would be beneficial for the game, you have convinced us that presently it would not be in the best interest of the raiding playerbase.

Here are the key points to note:

• The change from 20 to 30 will be reverted in the next update.

• The general scaling rules will remain the same as before.

• The new raid, Emerald Sanctum will remain requiring 40-man as it's featuring mechanics made with 40 players in mind.

• If we decide to reopen this discussion at a later point, you will have the opportunity to participate in it.

It has been disheartening to read the feedback from some members of the playerbase who have suddenly started treating Turtle WoW as an AAA corporate game. I would like to remind you all that we are not one. We always strive to steer the game in a way that we believe is healthy for the server and its players. Occasionally, players may have different opinions, but we treat you with respect and expect the same attitude in return. Thank you!

[Riske922]

Thank you for reverting this change. However, I'm still curious to know why this wasn't listed somewhere more important or discussed beforehand. Stealth patching it in is what made most of the community come in uproar, and you can't expect the best out of people when they're caught off-guard.

[Nallkun]

Hey - Thanks - GG Gms

[Jessienyan]

+1

This would have been a good opportunity to make a community poll. Not gathering feedback is the bigger issue here.

[Krotux]

nooo it was so good to promote players to get 30 instead of 20

[Dated]

I LOVE TURTLEWOW

[Thejakemf]

• The change from 20 to 30 will be reverted in the next update.

• The general scaling rules will remain the same as before.

Thank you for reverting this change quickly, you've likely saved dozens of small raiding guilds like mine who were working hard to maintain rosters of around 25 members.

• If we decide to reopen this discussion at a later point, you will have the opportunity to participate in it.

This is what would have expected you to do in the first place; thank you for planning to do that in the future. However, what was the rationale behind releasing this change without putting it in any patch notes; was this accidentally released? I can't help but feel like a lot of the trust I had in the TWoW team is lost now that a change so large and so impactful to its community at large would be made without even announcing it ahead of time. That sort of trust is exactly why we, or at least I, don't think of or treat TWoW like a corporate developer, or expect them to behave as such.

[Fresharugula]

If you respect the community the way you claim to changes like this wouldn’t be made so suddenly and in secret. Dropping this in the laps of guilds with no time to alter plans and adjust to new rules is the egregious problem with the changes as they were.

[Williamson75]

I expect more from twow devs than AAA companies. You have the ability to actually get feed back but chose not to do so. This was honestly a jab that feels unwarranted.

[Summersolstice]

when did the 20 to 30 change happen? I did not even notice it.

[Ejav94]

I for one trust our twow dev overlords. Imagine trying to tell them what to do. You adapt to the changes and move on. What is this pandering entitlement of the twow playerbase?

[Angelsseiba]

Thank you for reverting this change. However, I'm still curious to know why this wasn't listed somewhere more important or discussed beforehand. Stealth patching it in is what made most of the community come in uproar, and you can't expect the best out of people when they're caught off-guard.

stealth patching... like they did with zg crocs.. didn't mention it anywhere, now its a paladin only solo farm

[Riske922]

when did the 20 to 30 change happen? I did not even notice it.

It happened over Sunday/Monday night (talking est night). No one knew until they responded to a question about ES and then this fiasco got revealed.

[Reignwizard]

wow I didn't even realize you change raid from 20 to 30 o.o

please be more honest next time. that's not small change imo

but I do agree with the change. the more the merrier

[Rowrow213]

Hello, everyone!

I'm here to address the concerns that have been expressed regarding the sudden raid scaling change. While we initially believed it would be beneficial for the game, you have convinced us that presently it would not be in the best interest of the raiding playerbase.

Here are the key points to note:

• The change from 20 to 30 will be reverted in the next update.

• The general scaling rules will remain the same as before.

• The new raid, Emerald Sanctum will remain requiring 40-man as it's featuring mechanics made with 40 players in mind.

• If we decide to reopen this discussion at a later point, you will have the opportunity to participate in it.

It has been disheartening to read the feedback from some members of the playerbase who have suddenly started treating Turtle WoW as an AAA corporate game. I would like to remind you all that we are not one. We always strive to steer the game in a way that we believe is healthy for the server and its players. Occasionally, players may have different opinions, but we treat you with respect and expect the same attitude in return. Thank you!

What part of the stealth change was respectful towards the player? And maybe people wouldn't liken you to blizzard if you got rid of clowns like Pepesmite or Shang, telling people to just suck it up if they don't like the changes.

[Blowme777]

Can we get a Fix for the Stormwind Vault entrance for horde?

[Isvya]

Thanks.

[Xerilin]

Thanks for listening, Torta!

However, I'm still curious to know why this wasn't listed somewhere more important or discussed beforehand. Stealth patching it in is what made most of the community come in uproar, and you can't expect the best out of people when they're caught off-guard.

Jamey said on discord that they just forgot to put it in the patch notes. There has been a lot going on, so we should cut the team some slack. Making mistakes is okay. Admitting to them is hard and they did so right away and took the change back. I respect that.

[Sylveria]

Hello, everyone!

I'm here to address the concerns that have been expressed regarding the sudden raid scaling change. While we initially believed it would be beneficial for the game, you have convinced us that presently it would not be in the best interest of the raiding playerbase.

Here are the key points to note:

• The change from 20 to 30 will be reverted in the next update.

• The general scaling rules will remain the same as before.

• The new raid, Emerald Sanctum will remain requiring 40-man as it's featuring mechanics made with 40 players in mind.

• If we decide to reopen this discussion at a later point, you will have the opportunity to participate in it.

It has been disheartening to read the feedback from some members of the playerbase who have suddenly started treating Turtle WoW as an AAA corporate game. I would like to remind you all that we are not one. We always strive to steer the game in a way that we believe is healthy for the server and its players. Occasionally, players may have different opinions, but we treat you with respect and expect the same attitude in return. Thank you!

First of all: Thank you a lot for reverting that change!
It really was a big deal for smaller guilds and we're very grateful, that you guys changed your mind on that. :)

I want to add on this, that i can kinda understand the outrage, because of the way we had to find out about the change. I understand, that mistakes can be made, since a lot was going on lately, the SEA Servers, the 1.17.0 patch, etc. so we can cut the team some slack. You guys are just humans like everyone else.
I also fully agree, that you shouldn't be confronted with insults, accusations and just bad faith arguments. I can feel you, that it's very disheartening. And since you did some amazing work here on the server, you shouldn't be compared to Triple-A companies like Blizzard who have a clear disconnect to their community.
On the other hand: Some statements that were made on discord gave some of us the impression, that (at least some of) you wouldn't care for the communities opinion and would punch through changes no matter of the consequences for the community.

Nonetheless: Thanks again for reverting this change! Keep up the great work! Love y'all!

[Naite]

The change from 20 to 30 will be reverted in the next update.

Hello there
What about Naxx scale? Because now I'm confused, even don't realize about any changes.

[Geojak]

Thank you torta. I am sorry if the feedback came of as harsh. I will try to be better

[Jantsy]

What's with the sudden uptick in stealth changing large game-encompassing systems lately? We're already seeing gold inflation accelerate rapidly since the stealth mage nerfs forced them to go do lashers instead of ZG.

You mentioned on Discord that the issue you guys were trying to "fix" was large guilds preferring to run 2x20 man splits to maximize gear. I guess I don't understand the fixation with trying to reign in the power gamers if what they're doing isn't having a harmful impact on those around them. A huge number of people derive their enjoyment from this game out of playing with the overarching systems to increase their power/efficiency. All you're doing is making the server more narrowly focused one type of playstyle.

[Grizb37]

Hello, everyone!

I'm here to address the concerns that have been expressed regarding the sudden raid scaling change. While we initially believed it would be beneficial for the game, you have convinced us that presently it would not be in the best interest of the raiding playerbase.

Here are the key points to note:

• The change from 20 to 30 will be reverted in the next update.

• The general scaling rules will remain the same as before.

• The new raid, Emerald Sanctum will remain requiring 40-man as it's featuring mechanics made with 40 players in mind.

• If we decide to reopen this discussion at a later point, you will have the opportunity to participate in it.

It has been disheartening to read the feedback from some members of the playerbase who have suddenly started treating Turtle WoW as an AAA corporate game. I would like to remind you all that we are not one. We always strive to steer the game in a way that we believe is healthy for the server and its players. Occasionally, players may have different opinions, but we treat you with respect and expect the same attitude in return. Thank you!

What part of the stealth change was respectful towards the player? And maybe people wouldn't liken you to blizzard if you got rid of clowns like Pepesmite or Shang, telling people to just suck it up if they don't like the changes.

Yep. Abit like the PvP server no one wanted apart from a few forum trolls and select few pvp sweat lords.

[Uatu]

I honestly didn't mind the change at all
I was personally annoyed that the change was made without any prior announcement, same with the croc changes, when those kind og changes are made that impact both economy and gameplay I think we should be in the loop.
And no, people shouldn't spend 30 minutes looking thru discord for the relevant information, i wanna play the game!
With that being said, I think you're all doing great work and I appreciate all that you do

[Riske922]

However, I'm still curious to know why this wasn't listed somewhere more important or discussed beforehand. Stealth patching it in is what made most of the community come in uproar, and you can't expect the best out of people when they're caught off-guard.

Jamey said on discord that they just forgot to put it in the patch notes. There has been a lot going on, so we should cut the team some slack. Making mistakes is okay. Admitting to them is hard and they did so right away and took the change back. I respect that.

Nah, its of quite a few raiders opinions in those same discord conversations and here in these forums afterwards that this should have been information given prior, not even in just a maintenence patch note. With how large of a change this idea was it was extremely scummy to think people would just be okay with it, as seen by all this backlash.

[Eversongwoods]

these crybabies should have just been happy that the server doesn't remove crossfaction raids, its sad to see them get what they want

[Liljon]

Our apologies for holding the TWoW team accountable for a significant mistake, and especially our apologies that we have shown good faith in communicating this issue to the TWoW team.

[Harkus]

You cannot blame people for being sceptical when you suddenly go back on your word a few times in the past few months despite years of promising the contrary. Then you announce a F R E S H PvP realm while the Chinese problem on the original server is not even solved yet. You follow this up by silently removing one of the cornerstone features of Turtle WoW. It should not surprise you that this turned a few people hostile...

[Edgarek]

Thank you for reverting raid scaling.

[Satirical]

these crybabies should have just been happy that the server doesn't remove crossfaction raids, its sad to see them get what they want

I know, the FRESH PVP screamers should have just been ignored.

Oh we're not talking about them?

[Torta]

It should not surprise you that this turned a few people hostile...

The change getting in unannounced was definitely an oversight on our part so we understand frustration can come out of that. However, within 24 hours, this mistake was promptly addressed. Unfortunately, during this short period, certain individuals took the opportunity to engage in bullying.

Civilized criticism is one things, but hostility and unfiltered insults are not something that has ever been or will ever be tolerated on our platform. Hate speech directed towards the team or other groups of players, regardless of the circumstances, is absolutely unacceptable.

Any future attacks towards the people working on this project, following this response, will be treated accordingly.