AV Alliance bias still.

[Naonak1945]

Here is a short video recording of a AV bg start. Only goes for about 5 minutes.
It shows, alliance do not even get aggro or do not even go near a horde npc until IBgy area.

As horde players know to well, the death trap getting to SHgy area. Having to run that gauntlet past Balinda? building, either side.



Great that the alliance back door cheat was removed, but more needs to be done.

[Springboards]

not to mention half of the horde NPCs are in completely useless locations(like around those catapults or near korrak) ....while 95% of alliance npcs horde has to fight , which means they effectively have to DPS down like 50k more health(each has 1760 hp unupgraded )..which slows down horde ,we have to waste cooldowns on mobs instead of players, etc

solution would be to actually make the maps even(after removal of backdoor at least the lose chance is 95 % instead of 99%)...such as pulling back the mine layer into the frostwolf keep,adding some more elites to match the alliance ones in the base as well as more guards just like alliance base has

[Pyrahead]

Man, it would be very cool to actually have good AV battles, and this is coming from someone who plays on the Alliance side. Some matches go on for 15 minutes and it really kills the fun. I always loved the idea of grinding resources and upgrading troops to win that way, not to mention the summons. An update dedicated to AV or PvP in general would be awesome.

[Twinking]

I played for the alliance and for the horde and this is what I came to after many games of av: Horde players do not know how to play av, they are lazy, slow and do not want to try. They blame all the mistakes on the imbalance of the map and paladins. If you want to win av: stop crying on the forum and go learn how to win.
ps. I myself once believed that the alliance had an advantage, until I played on the other side...

[Insanefool]

The map is supposed to be unequal, everything from the style of bunkers/towers, the npc placement, the npc type, the terrain. The horde side of the map has some "advantages". The alliance side of the map has some "advantages". Both sides had back door entrances and really it was mainly used as horde tool until the the map was reverted to the "older" style it is now, where it became so that both sides used the back door.

Nonetheless, when a team wins it has more to do with the players on the team and less to do with the map differences.

I could get into a much longer discussion of why certain things should stay and certain things should change but saying alliance bias for AV is bad starting point for this discussion. I think when you say this you are ignoring the reality win statistics, history of the game, and the randomness of in-game occurrences such having Naxx geared players carry you etc.

[Springboards]

insanefool, you are an alliance player

come play horde to drop the bias with your 95% win rate
many of our archers do not work due to LoS(a single rogue can also cap our towers)
many of our horde are in whack spots being useless

horde has to barrage through roughly 200k health of junk npcs (also alliance had bugged respawn timers on their "stormpike guardsman" which caused them to respawn near instantly..thankfully that got fixed and backdoor)

multiple paladins can abuse bubble w/swiftness potion to draw npcs on them and clear a path for their team =something horde cannot do

[Insanefool]

insanefool, you are an alliance player

come play horde to drop the bias with your 95% win rate
many of our archers do not work due to LoS(a single rogue can also cap our towers)
many of our horde are in whack spots being useless

horde has to barrage through roughly 200k health of junk npcs (also alliance had bugged respawn timers on their "stormpike guardsman" which caused them to respawn near instantly..thankfully that got fixed and backdoor)

multiple paladins can abuse bubble w/swiftness potion to draw npcs on them and clear a path for their team =something horde cannot do

You do not realize that in your response you are demonstrating that you do not know how to play.

All towers and bunkers can actually be captured by single person from any class if you understand cc. Hunters, mages, rogues, priests, druids, warlocks can easily cc the commander and solo cap, it is harder for others. You can LoS archers in the bunker, and to say that archers dont work or are in useless spots is a crazy statement.

You know you can mount rush through npcs and they will hit a leash, right? Complaining about them is ridiculous because as you said they are junk fodder, hardly a threat. From the west side of Balindas bunker you will maybe hit 2 extra packs that the alliance will not hit would not hit if the map was equal, but alliance has extra packs in different spots that horde dont have to deal with either. The comparison does not work in both directions. 200k health worth of npcs is an insane exaggeration and further demonstrates your lack of credibility. You should maybe read my post again and come to realize that there are many things that are unequal about both sides. For example the wild frost wolves that alliance have to fight do not hit a leash.

You are citing a respawn bug which sounds like it was fixed nearly a year ago for your argument today?

You citing paladin class mechanics as "abuse" is also laughable. You do not need "multiple paladins", you do not need swiftness potions. You do not need paladins at all to clear a path. Just about any class can clear any path if played correctly. I play hunter and I have an alt paladin. The hunter is several leagues more useful for map objectives when compared to a paladin. I don't like playing the paladin at all actually, its toolset too limiting.

Alliance would have a very high win rate a year ago because there was a core of players carrying the games. Dedicated tanks/healers, specific players dedicated to quickly getting the objectives, organization and community. Meanwhile you would have. half the horde team AFK fishing every game. That is no longer the case today. Today it is more of a toss up of who has the most afk players.

[Springboards]

The alliance base itself also feels like a outdoor raid area due to all the npcs and elites(which inevitably get pulled by aoe )

but ok since you are so pro
Make a horde(shouldnt take you more than a month)
try to get above a 70%win rate in AV
as this cannot be explained it has to be executed...so you are going to show me how pro you are by making a horde and delivering your nonbias and "demonstrating to us how to play"..I can wager you gold that you cant hang..wow players love challenges so here is a challenge for you

[Jongyi]

Another Horde bitching and whining post

[Insanefool]

The alliance base itself also feels like a outdoor raid area due to all the npcs and elites(which inevitably get pulled by aoe )

but ok since you are so pro
Make a horde(shouldnt take you more than a month)
try to get above a 70%win rate in AV
as this cannot be explained it has to be executed...so you are going to show me how pro you are by making a horde and delivering your nonbias and "demonstrating to us how to play"..I can wager you gold that you cant hang..wow players love challenges so here is a challenge for you

This would be a massive pain in the ass and a waste of my time. I've played as horde in av before but yeah i didnt make a real horde toon on this particular server.

Maybe if you give me the keys to your account I would consider doing a few games of demonstrations. But really teaching people how to play is a big waste of time because people dont like to pay attention to a random claiming to know how to win.
And besides I've seen plenty of horde successfully navigate through the map with impressive moves. Just because a handful of loud people claim its a problem and that they cant do it doesnt make it true.

The real problem is the mentality of the players. Removing the back doors for example might have been a worse deal for the horde players. Even though the horde was loudly claiming the back door was the reason why alliance was so dominant. Really its because the horde believed that it was too difficult to win. During the era of overwhelming backdoor usage the win rate was actually lower for alliance than compared to the era when the core pvp community were engaged with the back door rarely being used.

As a side note in the current era of china dominance I doubt either side could really get a 70% win rate for a week least of all being single-carried by a fresh 60.

[Bigbearimpact]

Nah, i play horde. 90% of the time that we lose is because 50-60% of the players go afk.

[Springboards]

Bump

There is a new meta in town now, Alliance is using lvl 60 horde alts to force pops. Usually the game starts with 10-15 player shortage. Sure, eventually it fills up but the handicap already did its damage and by the time it does allaince is usually at the relief hut...and this compounds to the fact that the map is garbage

[Zokk]

It's hilarious seeing people defend the bias, I mean this sincerely, if you really think that the Horde base is as equally challenging to negotiate as the Alliance base then you are literally a moron.

It's very clear which base is full of holes and has fewer NPcs in the gauntlet, tower design, It's not even up for debate.

The Bridge/bottleneck at the alliance base alone is a significant advantage, regardless of other things, like the waterfall gaping hole horde have in their base.

I've played both factions, alot, so know how they play.

For the sake of making the BG interesting and fun I'd love to see them lock down the horde base so it's just as hard to break through/tuen over.

[Ataika]

Iam switched to alliance but really love to see av map rework, currently horde side fights under severe disadvantage and thats BPORING for alliance players outside of rep farm

[Saeleathe]

skill issue

[Zahnfee]

skill issue

^ Horde just bad at pvp sorry

[Springboards]

BUMP

FIX THIS MESS JUST MIRROR THE LAYOUTS

[Ataika]

Mirroring the layout would be the greatest AV change hands down.

[Deeno]

Anyone talking about that horde players should just learn how to play: how is that for arathi and wsg the winrate is 50/50 but av is like 5/95 ? The list is too long for me to go over everything.

Mirroring would be the fairest solution, but the most alien one for vanilla in my opinion.
A good example what could be done (what kind of solutions we need) to even out the design flaws, is how the land mines (in theory!) work. The mine layer npcs are placed and operate in a different part of the map. (ally one at their base => once the horde gets in, really hard to get rid of them, so this works as a deterrent, horde one is operating between the base and ib gy, slowing down the ally)

Although i promised not to do a list here, but for god sake, the ally base is so fortified (bridge + compact) , while ally just double jump to the horde boss.

[Ataika]

Daily reminder av still neeeds fixin

[Deeno]

skill issue

^ Horde just bad at pvp sorry

explain to me how wsg and ab have 50-50 win rate but av has 95-5

[Zahnfee]

skill issue

^ Horde just bad at pvp sorry

explain to me how wsg and ab have 50-50 win rate but av has 95-5

half your team afk because u expect the loose

[Deeno]

^ Horde just bad at pvp sorry

explain to me how wsg and ab have 50-50 win rate but av has 95-5

half your team afk because u expect the loose

but this is a paradox, we lose bc we expect to lose, but we expect to lose because we lose all the time
1. so the incentive that we lose all the time has to come from somewhere, so its not an explanation
2. its foolish to say that half the team afk in every av, it always starts with active players, so what happens every time that make ppl afk/leave?

[Zahnfee]

explain to me how wsg and ab have 50-50 win rate but av has 95-5

half your team afk because u expect the loose

but this is a paradox, we lose bc we expect to lose, but we expect to lose because we lose all the time
1. so the incentive that we lose all the time has to come from somewhere, so its not an explanation
2. its foolish to say that half the team afk in every av, it always starts with active players, so what happens every time that make ppl afk/leave?

well said

[Zvyrhol]

Daily reminder

[Deeno]

bump.

[Springboards]

can we fortify the horde base as much as alliance one please?The devs need to manually count out the guards each base has(hint hint the alliance has probably double if not triple the amount) and do the same for horde one?

Ex. the packs leading to Vanndar are 2x on each side with a set of 2 so thats 8 guards next to the aid station GY which help to reinforce it next to 6xstormpike defenders. There is also 4x random guards stationed around it as well which will possibly pull so thats (8+4 guardsmen+6x defenders=20 guards defending the aid station alone). Horde has 1 elite and 5 normal ones, with bridge and tree acting as massive LoS which causes other guards leading to Drek to not aggro

this is just not fair, horde has to barrage and use cooldowns on all these trash npcs while alliance can just leisurely save their oshit buttons; not to mention ALL npcs alliance has are in choke points and crucial roads while the majority of horde npcs are scattered save for Iceblood gy. We have no chokepoints and npcs to soak in damage FIX THIS MESS

another solution would be to swap the bases every month , e.g alliance gets horde side 1 month and horde gets their side, vice versa

[Valadorn]

Crossfaction would fix it aswell, if people would be assigned to teams randomly

[Ataika]

Crossfaction would fix it aswell, if people would be assigned to teams randomly

How corossfaction would fix the huge map bias are u drunk ?

[Zokk]

Crossfaction would fix it aswell, if people would be assigned to teams randomly

LOL, this has nothing to do with it... The game would still be biased because it's a fundamental map/base design bias.

I would love them to release the stats on the win/lose ratio of AV.

The compare to AB and WSG. But they won't obvs coz it would further prove the issue is to do with the specific map/base.

[Valadorn]

Crossfaction would fix it aswell, if people would be assigned to teams randomly

How corossfaction would fix the huge map bias are u drunk ?

Thats easy, since Both factions would play on Both bases, you would have no right to cry

[Majestik51]

NO CROSSFACTION ON PVP SERVER!!!

pls dont suggest this thing again is impossible.....

[Ataika]

Please make crossfaction my german friend will be happy.

[Majestik51]

Please make crossfaction my german friend will be happy.

lol im not german firs of all, my bad luck brought me here....
the only thing that i hate in turtle was crossfaction on pve server thats why i abandon it once and for all.
wats the purpose of having PVP server with crossfaction? doesnt make sense....

[Nitaya]

Love the cherry-picking here. Sure, let's fix the backdoor method and put more npc's for the horde. But also:
Put the horde starting cavern further back so the horde has the same traveling distance.

Relocate Balinda to a different spot, as Galvangar is off the road and you have to take a longer detour so it should be placed somewhere else. (Northeast of SH bunker).

Completely redesign SP graveyard, as horde can climb to the top and harass, while alliance has no way to do that and is forced on lower grounds without vision of the surrounding area. (Unlike in FW)
And also if the backdoor is fixed completely, that means there is an around 2-yard wide choke point, where the alliance must go through, which is a LOT closer to the Relief hut graveyard than to the Frostwolf GY, making it an easily defendable position.

So to counter that:
Make the bridge narrower, (Same wide as the entrance of the horde tower in the middle of their base).
Tower entrances and the bridge should be way closer to the aid station GY. So simply relocate SP further back. (Similar distance as for horde base tower/chokepoint from FW - ratio.
Fix the north bunker, so the only entrance is the entrance and it should not be possible to jump in. (So the same treatment as for the horde towers)
No more backdoor to the alliance base as well, you know the guards that you can charge on.

I hope you agree with all of my points since it would make a more balanced map.


I also hope you realize that during non-av days horde has fewer players than the alliance (due to Horde constantly winning on the given days BG, gives little incentive to join AV). Many times it is +4 or +5 for the alliance. And if there is a little struggle, Ally has greater manpower to replace the leavers, so in longer games, +10 can happen.

Tell me how crossfaction would not help on that. (I'm talking about the PvE server situation)