Thoughts on upcoming Paladin nerf

[Jstansberry]

My current opinion of the "nerf" for paladins is that it's not going in the right direction - Paladins are having more fun doing damage they couldn't do before. Vanilla Paladin pvp has always been somewhat of a meme - bubble, LoH, Flash of Light spam - it's an arduous and tiresome ordeal for both parties involved and the addition of Holy Strike offers a path of redemption for the class in terms of pvp. Because of this I think the defensive capability or cc of Paladins should be nerfed instead, maybe reducing bubble duration to 5/6s instead of 10/12s rather than the planned change of swapping the attack speed reduction with damage reduction - or just make it so that Paladins can be disabled/otherwise debuffed/purged in Divine Shield and give them full attack speed and damage.

The problem right now is that Paladins can run 8% faster than you at all times while having 12s of unpurgable immunity to damage and disables paired with their newly granted potential to hit you with a 1k (non crit) Holy Strike in preraid+AV Hammer gear. Then they have Repentance and Hammer of Justice to control you if you survive their bubble duration. So you can't kite them, run from them, or fight back in any way while they are easily able to kill you within this time frame unless you get lucky - and it's a struggle even when you survive those 12s because they have a CC potential nearly on par with rogues. They are unkitable unstoppable persistence-hunter JUGGERNAUTS that hit as hard as an arms Warrior - 12s of no counterplay with the burst potential to easily secure the fight if not outright kill you within those 12s. This is unfun and moreso frustrating for people who are fighting Paladins.

The current nerf they have slated for Paladins isn't fun for either Paladins OR their victims, IMO - it just undoes most of what adding Holy Strike and Crusader Strike did for them in pvp. I think nerfing their defensive capability or CC would be a better way to balance things rather than going after their newly-found ability to blow people up (without cheesing Reckoning procs). That said, for them to keep their current burst capability in bubble would call for a BIG nerf in other areas - thus the example of the drastic reduction in Divine Shield duration.

And no, Shamans are not comparable to Paladins. Shamans do not have 12s of invulnerability to all damage and CC, Shamans have no stuns or hard CC of any kind (barring the newly added Troll-exclusive racial spell which has a 6 minute CD), Shamans wear mail instead of plate, Shamans do not have BoF or Cleanse. Shamans have Purge and that's 99% of the reason why Paladins don't like Shamans and reflexively complain about Shaman burst whenever Paladin nerfs are discussed - but you can't purge a bubbled Paladin and now Paladins can easily kill someone within that 12s bubble. Vanilla PVP is a rock-paper-scissors scenario for most match-ups when it comes to pvp class balance, and Paladins no longer have a hard counter because they can just kill the classes that used to counter them within bubble duration - but we also don't need to return to form and make Paladins incredibly boring to both pvp as and against.

[Grinspoon]

bubble is just annoying to play against. it's not uncommon to face multiple palas in a group fight and having one pop bubble then switch to the next only to be confronted with another bubble. guess we wait then. maybe go grab a coffee.
I don't see that changing though. It's an iconic class ability and turtle wow is trying to keep the core of vanilla intact.
If we talk about burst it's a long ass list of broken classes in pvp right now. The difference between Pala running at you with bubble, shaman, mage, wl blasting you with a spell crit for more hp than you have from range or a rogue keeping you stunlocked until you're dead isn't that big.

[Borefficz]

They sure do have fun dealing damage.

[Infinus]

bubble is just annoying to play against. it's not uncommon to face multiple palas in a group fight and having one pop bubble then switch to the next only to be confronted with another bubble. guess we wait then. maybe go grab a coffee.
I don't see that changing though. It's an iconic class ability and turtle wow is trying to keep the core of vanilla intact.
If we talk about burst it's a long ass list of broken classes in pvp right now. The difference between Pala running at you with bubble, shaman, mage, wl blasting you with a spell crit for more hp than you have from range or a rogue keeping you stunlocked until you're dead isn't that big.

This. People aren't used to paladins being able to kill them and they want to roll mage, war, or rogue and kill everyone 100% of the time.

Bubble? It's a 5 minute cool down. Rogues can just vanish every couple of minutes or gouge and run/stealth every 20 seconds. That is FAR more OP than bubble.

Makes can Ice block and wait for all of their cds too.

[Qasd19970724]

众所周知，60级版本的骑士不适合防御，当然除了团队副本，只适合治疗，如果按你说的减少防御，那能不能把骑士这个职业改成无MP职业？如果改成无MP职业，减少防御我还是挺喜欢的，不要因为个人看点而去反驳一个职业

[Jstansberry]

This. People aren't used to paladins being able to kill them and they want to roll mage, war, or rogue and kill everyone 100% of the time.

Bubble? It's a 5 minute cool down. Rogues can just vanish every couple of minutes or gouge and run/stealth every 20 seconds. That is FAR more OP than bubble.

Makes can Ice block and wait for all of their cds too.

Paladins have too much of everything, is my point. They have high survivability, CC, utility, and now they have big burst damage as well. A preraid BiS ret paladin can kill most classes within a Hammer of Justice stun duration, let alone a bubble duration. Before paladins were granted the ability to do good damage they won by attrition - purges and mana drains/burns were the best way to play against paladins because of this. Now, that purge/drain counterplay is no longer relevant because you just die before you can use your spells. Does it really sound fair to give paladins the same burst potential as an arms warrior while keeping their utility, CC, and survivability?

It's true that ret and prot needed some help in pve, but paladins were already good in pvp and the addition of CS and Holy Strike pushed the class above all others in that regard.

I think it's disingenuous to compare Vanish to Divine Shield, Vanish doesn't dispel all debuffs and make you completely immune to everything while still allowing you to attack. Vanish is for giving the rogue another chance to use openers or to simply flee. Rogues have an actual weakness - if they don't get the opening they have a severe disadvantage. Mage's ice block is a double-edged sword because the enemy can also use it to bandage, get their own cds back, lay hunter traps et cetera. As it is right now, paladins just have "I win" buttons, and it's delusional to believe otherwise. I think you'd have a hard time comparing ANY class to what paladins are capable of in pvp right now - because all other classes have legitimate weaknesses/counters other than their cooldowns already being used...

[Jongyi]

At this point, I start to think people just to nerf paladin to the ground out of spite.
And I am not even pala main

[Borzy]

The problem right now is that Paladins can run 8% faster than you at all times while having 12s of unpurgable immunity to damage and disables paired with their newly granted potential to hit you with a 1k (non crit) Holy Strike in preraid+AV Hammer gear.

Yet more dumb suggestions by people who clearly have never played paladins, and just want to moan that paladins are OP.

If you have ever been killed by a Paladin in world PVP, you’re playing your class wrong. Stop asking for “balance” to PVP in contained area duels like arenas.

[Tacticalnelf]

This. People aren't used to paladins being able to kill them and they want to roll mage, war, or rogue and kill everyone 100% of the time.

Bubble? It's a 5 minute cool down. Rogues can just vanish every couple of minutes or gouge and run/stealth every 20 seconds. That is FAR more OP than bubble.

Makes can Ice block and wait for all of their cds too.

nah, mages cant hit you with a 4k pyroblast while under the effect of ice block, but a pally can bubble and still deal masive holy damage. Rogues cant vanish if they got any damage over time on them.

the only class that doesn't have any kind of weakness is the paladin with twow custom changes.

[Springboards]

6 second instant cast 20 yard range gouge
6 second ranged undodeable/unparryable stun 45sec cd
immunity from movement effects from freedom
total immunity with bubble
LoH
plate armor

and lots of damage..wow why play any other class

[Isvya]

6 second instant cast 20 yard range gouge
6 second ranged undodeable/unparryable stun 45sec cd
immunity from movement effects from freedom
total immunity with bubble
LoH
plate armor

and lots of damage..wow why play any other class

Are we listing abilities now?
5,5 seconda gouge with 10s cd
10yards range blind for 10s with the ability to reset cd.
Vanish to reset any encounter, remove slows with the ability to reset cd
5 sec interrupt with 10s cd
Great damage output as being a pure dps class.
Sprint to reset fights, or gapcloser

Nerf rogues pls, they are super overpowered as you can see above.
I can also ignore facts that i dont like and make up stuff lmao.

[Tacticalnelf]

6 second instant cast 20 yard range gouge
6 second ranged undodeable/unparryable stun 45sec cd
immunity from movement effects from freedom
total immunity with bubble
LoH
plate armor

and lots of damage..wow why play any other class

Are we listing abilities now?
5,5 seconda gouge with 10s cd
10yards range blind for 10s with the ability to reset cd.
Vanish to reset any encounter, remove slows with the ability to reset cd
5 sec interrupt with 10s cd
Great damage output as being a pure dps class.
Sprint to reset fights, or gapcloser

Nerf rogues pls, they are super overpowered as you can see above.
I can also ignore facts that i dont like and make up stuff lmao.

Rogue has damage and control, thats all, paladins can deal tons of damage (holy damage that ignore armor), they can heal, tank and control.

Basically they can do everything without any kind of drawback

[Isvya]

...

...

Rogue has damage and control, thats all, paladins can deal tons of damage (holy damage that ignore armor), they can heal, tank and control.

Basically they can do everything without any kind of drawback

12sec / 1 min is control? In that case warriors have control too via fear+intercept stun+ they have interrupt.
Paladins have 0 gapclosers and are eaten alive by any half decent caster that have some understanding of the game.

The issue here is that most people wanna beat up paladins in a fistfight, ofc u gonna die then come here. Do you fistfight a warrior as a rogue? No, you gonna die. Same shit, people are just too used to paladins hitting like a wet noodle in classic and wanna brute force them.
Bubble is the only valid arguement here and its gonna be changed next patch. Even tho its a 5 minute cd. Most anti abilities have less:
Death coil 2m fear?
Blink 30s poly?
Vanish sprint evasion blind.. lol just use any and u can prep them too
Disarm 1m. Well warriors have hard time yeah but they would lose to a pala in classic too.
Scatter, trap, deflection
Druids can literally just run away and kite.


I agree that holy strike double dipping is too much but most ppl crying is just simply bad at the game, they see a shillpost and join.

[Springboards]

casters/hunters cannot shoot through terrain anymore so any advantage of "kiting paladins" is nullified

You have to rely on instant casts(basically be a warlock with 3-4 instant dots)...how about come play a vurtne mage clone on hordeside and see for yourself? Cant get shatters with freedoms going off 24/7, infact cant hardcast anything due to people figuring out that you can LoS the hardcasts unlike retail

also on retail paladin was lowkey op once geared, 5 reckoning stacks would erase anyone, and you could abuse that against hunter pets since they already hit so low to begin with(a naked hunter pet has the same damage as a T3 one, and it hits for 12! damage at lvl 60

[Kobiq]

Your whining is just pathetic. As listed above, paladins have some powerful toolkit and other classes have their own powerful toolkit.

At this moment the main purpose of bubble is to recover from tons of CC that any warlock, hunter, mage, rogue can impose upon you. It's only thing that prevents you from being kited like a mob, and nuked 100-0 without touching the enemy (and sure, that's not broken at all).I think retri would be fine if the bubble was only CC protection (note Freedom can be freakin purged or dispelled and doesnt work against many CC types). Then balance this slightly in some other way (maybe interrupt?).

The spell itself being iconic is another topic, but maybe the way to go is to put classic bubble somewhere into protection talents and make it viable support-spec option in PVP with enhanced auras or smth?

[Tacticalnelf]

Your whining is just pathetic. As listed above, paladins have some powerful toolkit and other classes have their own powerful toolkit.

At this moment the main purpose of bubble is to recover from tons of CC that any warlock, hunter, mage, rogue can impose upon you. It's only thing that prevents you from being kited like a mob, and nuked 100-0 without touching the enemy (and sure, that's not broken at all).I think retri would be fine if the bubble was only CC protection (note Freedom can be freakin purged or dispelled and doesnt work against many CC types). Then balance this slightly in some other way (maybe interrupt?).

The spell itself being iconic is another topic, but maybe the way to go is to put classic bubble somewhere into protection talents and make it viable support-spec option in PVP with enhanced auras or smth?

thank you for recognizing that paladin is the only one able to ignore everything from all classes and still manage to deal a lot of damage and heal at the same time

[Tasman]

I just want to point one thing. In reality, paladin without consumables (frost oil and swiftness potion) will be kited and killed by ranged dps, so even buble wont help here. So question lies mainly on how much consumables each class have against another. Buble+Frost oil+Swiftness potion= in 80% cases will be win. But if oposing to paladin class will also have same consumables, he can counter paladin even with buble and potions. It is mainly the question of how much effort you put in pvp, to gain upperhand on your foe.
And one more thing, on BGs like WSG and AB, where is main objective is not kill enemy team, but capture flags and points, without consumables, paladin is worst class to play and horde has an advantage having +1 high mobility class per side.

[Kairion]

Paladins cant run 8% faster than anyone else. The speedbonus does not stack with boots enchant!

Similarly how do people keep being suprised that getting into melee with a two hand wielding melee hurts? Enhancement shaman, arms warrior, and reckoning paladin back in classic are all well known to oneshot people in pvp. Yet paladins oneshot was flat out removed for more consistent dmg output with holy strike.

Every time someone complains about getting oneshot by a paladin on turtle wow, it can be put into one of the following categories:
- Paladin has berserking (double dips dmg bonus on holy strike and is a legitemate big)
- Paladin is heavily overgeared (welcome to classic pvp, thats intentional)
- You are a clothie (why the hell are you in his melee range?)

There are definitely things in the game that make paladin strong (certain lifesteal weapons for instance) or the bug with berserking, but nerfing paladin is treating the symptom rather than the root problem.

In the mean time, if you need a sidewheel to learn how to fight paladins, grab some https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=43 ... ulator-ray

"It slows, dismounts and turns your target into an ugly green child"
-Nexius

Its a slow paladins and gets them off the mount before they reach you and best of all, since its a curse and a transformation, they have to bubble or cant get rid of it.

[Aeternusdoleo]

Paladins have too much of everything, is my point. They have high survivability, CC, utility, and now they have big burst damage as well. A preraid BiS ret paladin can kill most classes within a Hammer of Justice stun duration, let alone a bubble duration. Before paladins were granted the ability to do good damage they won by attrition - purges and mana drains/burns were the best way to play against paladins because of this. Now, that purge/drain counterplay is no longer relevant because you just die before you can use your spells. Does it really sound fair to give paladins the same burst potential as an arms warrior while keeping their utility, CC, and survivability?

Survivability strengths: Paladins get a "break out of root effects" and a "every 5 mins, 12 seconds of absolute immunity" - with a one minute cooldown on getting shielded again by another pally or your second shield ability. For Ret pallies with the appropriate talents, slightly faster movement speed.
Survivability weaknesses: Very limited ranged ability in general. Limited range on stun and seals. No quick ways to close distance with a target - no teleports, charge, anything. You always move at just the regular run speed.

That aside, keep in mind there's more then PvP to this server. Prot pallies have a hard enough time keeping aggro - combined with the fact that manaburn bosses are impossible for them as is, nerfing their damage isn't going to be helpful with that. PvE > PvP as far as I'm concerned.

[Dansch]

Paladins have too much of everything, is my point. They have high survivability, CC, utility, and now they have big burst damage as well. A preraid BiS ret paladin can kill most classes within a Hammer of Justice stun duration, let alone a bubble duration. Before paladins were granted the ability to do good damage they won by attrition - purges and mana drains/burns were the best way to play against paladins because of this. Now, that purge/drain counterplay is no longer relevant because you just die before you can use your spells. Does it really sound fair to give paladins the same burst potential as an arms warrior while keeping their utility, CC, and survivability?

Survivability strengths: Paladins get a "break out of root effects" and a "every 5 mins, 12 seconds of absolute immunity" - with a one minute cooldown on getting shielded again by another pally or your second shield ability. For Ret pallies with the appropriate talents, slightly faster movement speed.
Survivability weaknesses: Very limited ranged ability in general. Limited range on stun and seals. No quick ways to close distance with a target - no teleports, charge, anything. You always move at just the regular run speed.

That aside, keep in mind there's more then PvP to this server. Prot pallies have a hard enough time keeping aggro - combined with the fact that manaburn bosses are impossible for them as is, nerfing their damage isn't going to be helpful with that. PvE > PvP as far as I'm concerned.

what most of you seem to forget is that by just using engi paladin can counter most of their limitations:

• grenade: range stun/interrupt/gap closer
  rockethelm: gap closer
  net: gap closer (pally just freedoms backfire)
  rocketboots: gap closer
  reflectors: self-explanatory

in addition just get faps/swiftness potions/frost oil (yeah, they even can slow now forcing proccs with a seal) from AH and you can easily face and down every class currently on twow!

[Borzy]

nah, mages cant hit you with a 4k pyroblast while under the effect of ice block, but a pally can bubble and still deal masive holy damage.

Spoken like someone who doesn’t know how to play their class.

You ever heard of kiting? If a paladin bubbles, you either bandage if they’re using it to heal, or you kite them if they’re trying to chase you. A paladin wielding a 3.4sec 2hander has maximum 3 swings to deal their “maSSiVe hOlY daMAGE” lmao some of these comments are cancer.

[Springboards]

You cannot kite a paladin due to multiple factors

A)Ranged cannot shoot through LoS here (which brings you back to square 1, you are forced to used instant casts since paladins abuse terrain for LoS/to heal up)
B) Freedom makes them immune to all cc effects
C) They will just ride up to you on a mount
D) repentance

And of course their pvp trinket/bubble. Paladin pvp trinket is the best since freedom covers slow/roots while trinket covers stuns/fears/polys. Not to mention they will use their other bubble as a trinket as well

Sure you can ask to bring a friendly priest along to purge all the stuff off them(which they have multiple trash buffs on them like scrolls so its hard to get rid of freedom) but anyone can play with a pocket healer...

[Nameis2]

I agree bubble should get nerf, instead bubble should be 3 min CD with 3-6 sec duration.

[Chudman123]

Don't forget pallys get a 6 second stun on a 60 second cool down. Also when you are stunned you can't Dodge, parry, or block.

Maybe you could make holy strike able to be blocked, dodged, or parried while stunned? This would allow tanks to actually be tanker vrs pallys. Currently there is no real way to tank a pally in pvp except with massive stamina. I think pallys damage vrs casters is fine because casters should be able to kite them better and any melee that gets on top of a clothie should be able to kill the clothie.

Holy strike is like a melee and a spell but seems to benefit from the best parts of both (crits like a melee 2x opposed to 1.5x for non talented spell crits, costs almost no resources like a melee, doesn't trigger a gcd, is unaffected by armor like a spell, gets boosted by melee stats and spell power) and with hoj they don't have to worry about mitigation...

[Infinus]

Lots of QQ in here. Sorry you lost to a paladin in PvP. Get good. I could beat my paladin with literally every other class in the game in equal gear, easily.

You simply do not understand PvP mechanics and want to place blame on a class but the truth is, you'll just end up QQing about another class 1 week after any paladin nerfs. Nothing will change, you will still be bad. The same crying I've heard since 2004. Nerf this, nerf that, im bad.

"I lost a fight with the most easily kited class in the game" lmao.

[Chudman123]

lol shammy way easier to kite than pally, we don't have cleanse or BoF, also pallys were buffed on this server, that combined with the nerfs they have announced make pallys still way better than vanilla wow (only can't nuke as much in bubble and fixing items to work as intended).

That being said I hope they buff all specs to a level playing field opposed to nerfing strong and fun specs into the ground.

[Laso131]

Why nerf a paly? This is the most boring class in the game! In tanking, he is worse than a war, in healing he is worse than a priest, in DPS he is worse and more boring than rogue, hunter, etc. Have you leveled the paladin solo at all? It's just awful. In pvp, the paladin can do something, but 90% do not know how to play it and do not pose a danger. My main class is sham and I will laugh when he gets nerfed and all paladins delete the game)

[Bittermens]

If paladins did a lot of damage i would be top 1 on raid DPS full T2.5 and ashkandi

[Kobiq]

Your whining is just pathetic. As listed above, paladins have some powerful toolkit and other classes have their own powerful toolkit.

At this moment the main purpose of bubble is to recover from tons of CC that any warlock, hunter, mage, rogue can impose upon you. It's only thing that prevents you from being kited like a mob, and nuked 100-0 without touching the enemy (and sure, that's not broken at all).I think retri would be fine if the bubble was only CC protection (note Freedom can be freakin purged or dispelled and doesnt work against many CC types). Then balance this slightly in some other way (maybe interrupt?).

The spell itself being iconic is another topic, but maybe the way to go is to put classic bubble somewhere into protection talents and make it viable support-spec option in PVP with enhanced auras or smth?

thank you for recognizing that paladin is the only one able to ignore everything from all classes and still manage to deal a lot of damage and heal at the same time

Yea, but the problem is other classes have other sorts of overcoming CC, like iceblock, vanish, or some gap closers. Paladin can only bennyhill.mp4.

[Zokk]

This thread is hilarious. Seeing people trying to make a case that palas arent completely ridiculous. (in PVP i mean)
What amazes me the most is that people dont just get so bored playing with them and just play something else as they are so easy, so strong against everything, its almost embarrassing.

Boring, maybe for low esteem people though, its nice?

[Manletow]

Paladins are unduly excellent against melee classes. I'd say they are generally evenly matched against casters due to being somewhat easy to kite.

Paladins extremely popular and needed a nerf badly to reduce their current "Hero Class" status.
Shamans rightfully buffed as they are tied for "least played class". Probably because placing down totems is a tedious chore.

[Tasman]

So if shaman oneshots someone in melee or at distance - it is ok, but when paladin does same thing in melee - nerf him now!

[Charanko]

All these pala defenders make me laugh haha

[Bittermens]

All these pala defenders make me laugh haha

So say the larping inbred cow player
still mad that no one does WSG and AB because of your class spamming chain lightning?

[Charanko]

All these pala defenders make me laugh haha

So say the larping inbred cow player
still mad that no one does WSG and AB because of your class spamming chain lightning?

Nice insults… now go play your female elf paladin, you machoman