Inferno quest - plz make it short.

[Vliqta]

You're picking the easily debatable points to try to disprove them and otherwise stay away from the fundamentals.

I'm adressing the points as I see them and give my reason why I like or dislike them. I've been quoting so I actually answer them respectively. And i'll adress your points but i'm afraid i'll be repeating myself a lot.

Why is it good and okay that players that choose to play the hc game mode solo are forced to quit playing at 59 and cannot go to 60 without the necessity to do a lengthy quest chain first?

The inferno mode has come so that people who want to can give end game content on HC mode a shot. This because there was already a sizeable playerbase locked at 59 trying so. Also with the advent of retail hardcore classic it shows that people want this, especially the raiding part. This is also why that video of the guild that wiped on four horsemen due to a griefer is so popular atm. People dream of killing Kel'Thuzad without dying once.
From the rewards and titles Turtle WoW are giving it also seems to me the intake of catering to dungeons and raids. So yes solo players like yourself who don't want to partake in this have it against them with this questline. However you're a niche public and Turtle WoW cannot provide content to everyone dreams and desires.

If it is not good and okay, why argue against changing it?

I think the questline is good, maybe the mailbox could have had a different place but I'm not gonna cry over that. The reason why I find this good is as follow:

• It shows commitment for people who are willing to go the extra mile, which is not elitest, it prepares you for the ride to come.

• Needing help and helping other creates bonds that are essential for end game raiding in inferno mode.

• Officers and core members can asses how good and reliable the new recruits are during the dungeons.

• It also gears up people, maybe not for those who are long time inferno but newer players get there hands on loot and the guild on mats, new recipes

If all you want to do is hardcore raiding at 60, how is anything taken away from you if others that don't want to raid are allowed to play 60 hc as well?

I won't be doing raiding only, i'll get reputation rewards and other stuff too. And you don't take anything away from me if you quest or transmog or other stuff.

How is it good that you force a game mode and play style upon players that don't want to do this?

Like I said before, the reasons as to why they put the questline in there makes a lot of sense to me. And not to long ago we where all in the same boat, there wasn't a Inferno option. And to put it like you did before "The twow team has made an effort to add inferno mode into the game, they could just as well not have done that. Show some more gratitude and respect for the FREE labor that is provided to you. You are way too entitled here.".

By that logic, you'd be fine with a non-hc raid attunement being locked behind pvp content. You don't force pve players to pvp, as much as you shouldn't force solo players into group content. We don't demand rewards without putting up the effort, we request to keep up the challenge at 60.

This is the same statement as before just worded differently... and historically people have been locked out of self imposed desires in WoW all the time. Things change and maybe your wish will be granted.
Look perhaps down the line they will make a hard but soloable quest for people like you. For now they haven't and i'm all for something like that so you can be happy. I still think having the quest setup like this is a good fundamental for inferno end game content and whatever they plan beyond.

[Zulnam]

I thought the whole idea of HC is to have the world drag you through the mud and spit in your face, and Inferno is that on steroids.

It makes sense that just reaching Inferno mode is a challenge in itself where not everyone will make it.

It's the hardcore of hardcore. HC times 10.

And now you want it easier? Oh sweet irony.

Like OP said, people will do those dungeons anyway. So they can do them for inferno.

[Pristn]

I think plenty of people who get 60 through HC know how to play careful solo, that doesn't mean they know how to work in group or raids. Do they pull aggro from tanks, what do they do if they have? What if the healer gets aggro how does he react? What is the placement if this person? That you can assess in dungeons.
And to compare one persons mistake and generalise it to everyone is very disengenious. People who are long time HC players at 59 or 60 have a trackrecord. There might be mistakes and there will be some more down the line but the aim is to minimize it as much as possible.

Then the more I do not understand the meaning of the quest. You
wrong just like everyone else. Your group that died in Sholo along with the tank is a mistake that cost your guild weeks to level up for the dead tank. And then he will again have to be led through the quest. Instead of recruiting tanks and healers, you accompany 59 players for a month to complete the quest.

I don't think you understand the questline, it takes you through dungeons: Mara>LBRS>Scholo>DMW>HFQ,BRD>UBRS.
You literally get geared while doing the questline! And people are getting better pieces, rare drops or recipes. How do you think you get into UBRS ? By doing LBRS, given you do it group the drop chance is higher.

That's funny. Half of the players don't want to go help make the quest, because there are 7-10 people going there and this means a lot of competition. I myself witnessed when Hunter left the group, because there were 3 Hunters in the group, with the words: “I wanted to go for loot, but I won’t get anything there.
Take off your rose-colored glasses.

You don't have to run dungeons with me, the aim for inferno mode as the forum post shows is to raid and get the titles:

You first go through the UBRS for 59x. For MC you need 4+ equipped tanks and 8+ healers, not counting DPS.

Well i'm glad that they didn't and that's a strawman you make. I listed my points on why I think the questline is fine and how it benefits the titles and aim of inferno mode.

I don't even want to raid.

Even if I want to raid it's a long way to go. They think they're going to the Molten Core quickly. Just getting dressed will take a couple of months, given that there is no access to the auction.

I thought the whole idea of HC is to have the world drag you through the mud and spit in your face, and Inferno is that on steroids.
It makes sense that just reaching Inferno mode is a challenge in itself where not everyone will make it.
It's the hardcore of hardcore. HC times 10.
And now you want it easier? Oh sweet irony.
Like OP said, people will do those dungeons anyway. So they can do them for inferno.

Go through Molten Core or BWL and don't die it's already hardcore hardcore dude.

[Hctwowfan]

I thought the whole idea of HC is to have the world drag you through the mud and spit in your face, and Inferno is that on steroids.

It makes sense that just reaching Inferno mode is a challenge in itself where not everyone will make it.

It's the hardcore of hardcore. HC times 10.

And now you want it easier? Oh sweet irony.

Like OP said, people will do those dungeons anyway. So they can do them for inferno.

You obviously did not read anything beyond what op initially posted so I wont adress this.

Why is it good and okay that players that choose to play the hc game mode solo are forced to quit playing at 59 and cannot go to 60 without the necessity to do a lengthy quest chain first?

The inferno mode has come so that people who want to can give end game content on HC mode a shot. This because there was already a sizeable playerbase locked at 59 trying so. Also with the advent of retail hardcore classic it shows that people want this, especially the raiding part. This is also why that video of the guild that wiped on four horsemen due to a griefer is so popular atm. People dream of killing Kel'Thuzad without dying once.
From the rewards and titles Turtle WoW are giving it also seems to me the intake of catering to dungeons and raids. So yes solo players like yourself who don't want to partake in this have it against them with this questline. However you're a niche public and Turtle WoW cannot provide content to everyone dreams and desires.

This does not answer my question. We dont disagree on what inferno mode is. The announcement months ago was not that inferno mode for raiders will be added, it was that hc 60 mode would be added.

The reason why tinyviolin's fifth horseman video is blowing up is because the majority of wow players despise the hc community and their elitism, not because everyone is eagerly awaiting a world first KT hc kill. The hc community and mods have now decided it was okay to appeal those deaths, check the comments below that reddit post if you actually think the wow classic player base cares for a KT kill rather than despises the hc community.

EDIT:
I happen to know that we have a player on this very server that owns 9 toons out of the top 20 toons that are shown as still alive at 59.99 on the hardcore site. If you asked a random player what they thought about that, what do you think their reaction would be? Would they admire them? Would they care? Or would they simply assume that guy is a no-life?
No need to answer this part.
end edit

Again:
Why is it good and okay that players that choose to play the hc game mode solo are forced to quit playing at 59 and cannot go to 60 without the necessity to do a lengthy quest chain first?

Is it good? Is it bad? Simple question.
If you think it is good design to force players to do things they dont want to do (mind you, not for rewards, simply to keep playing the game mode they chose) let's just leave it at that.

If it is not good and okay, why argue against changing it?

I think the questline is good, maybe the mailbox could have had a different place but I'm not gonna cry over that. The reason why I find this good is as follow:

• It shows commitment for people who are willing to go the extra mile, which is not elitest, it prepares you for the ride to come.

• Needing help and helping other creates bonds that are essential for end game raiding in inferno mode.

• Officers and core members can asses how good and reliable the new recruits are during the dungeons.

• It also gears up people, maybe not for those who are long time inferno but newer players get there hands on loot and the guild on mats, new recipes

You fail to answer the question. I have NOT asked if the questline is good.

Again:
1. Why is it good and okay that players that choose to play the hc game mode solo are forced to quit playing at 59 and cannot go to 60 without the necessity to do a lengthy quest chain first?
2. If it is not good and okay, why argue against changing it?

You answered neither.

If all you want to do is hardcore raiding at 60, how is anything taken away from you if others that don't want to raid are allowed to play 60 hc as well?

I won't be doing raiding only, i'll get reputation rewards and other stuff too. And you don't take anything away from me if you quest or transmog or other stuff.

Then why argue against changing it? If nothing is taken away from you, why argue for a change that does in no way affect you?

How is it good that you force a game mode and play style upon players that don't want to do this?

Like I said before, the reasons as to why they put the questline in there makes a lot of sense to me. And not to long ago we where all in the same boat, there wasn't a Inferno option. And to put it like you did before "The twow team has made an effort to add inferno mode into the game, they could just as well not have done that. Show some more gratitude and respect for the FREE labor that is provided to you. You are way too entitled here.".

You did not answer the question!
3. How is it good that you force a game mode and play style upon players that don't want to do this?

As for the reasons as to why they put the questline in there I can only guess. The way it is now is not what was announced months ago. They wanted to introduce the option to remain hc at 60. It was never mentioned, that this change would only be applicable to people that want to do a 10h quest chain at 59.

By that logic, you'd be fine with a non-hc raid attunement being locked behind pvp content. You don't force pve players to pvp, as much as you shouldn't force solo players into group content. We don't demand rewards without putting up the effort, we request to keep up the challenge at 60.

This is the same statement as before just worded differently... and historically people have been locked out of self imposed desires in WoW all the time. Things change and maybe your wish will be granted.
Look perhaps down the line they will make a hard but soloable quest for people like you. For now they haven't and i'm all for something like that so you can be happy.

You're not adressing what I said.

I still think having the quest setup like this is a good fundamental for inferno end game content and whatever they plan beyond.

Nowhere have I asked if this was a good fundamental for people that want to raid in hc mode. I wholeheartedly agree that this quest has this purpose and sticks the landing. But you are making up questions in your mind and answer those rather than answering my questions.

So again:

• 1. Why is it good that players that choose to play the hc game mode solo are forced to quit playing at 59 and cannot go to 60 without the necessity to do a lengthy quest chain first?

Why is it good to force players?

• 2. If it is not good and okay, why argue against changing it?

Why argue against changing it?

• 3. How is it good that you force a game mode and play style upon players that don't want to do this?

How is that good?

• 4. Do you think it would be good design to force players that are only interested in pve to gain access to said pve content via mandatory pvp content?

Would you consider this good design?

• 5. If not, why defend it?

You have not answered a single one of these questions.

[Zulnam]

"Why is it good to force players?"


Dude you literally chose to play a game mode that forces you to essentially delete your character on death, in a game that was never designed for this.

You wanted force. This is it.

[Vliqta]

Your group that died in Sholo along with the tank is a mistake that cost your guild weeks to level up for the dead tank. And then he will again have to be led through the quest. Instead of recruiting tanks and healers, you accompany 59 players for a month to complete the quest.

Mistakes happen and only a fraction of HC playerbase go inferno, because they don't like the idea of one life only at 60. So its normal those things cost us time. And those 59 we accompany are the future tanks and healers.

That's funny. Half of the players don't want to go help make the quest, because there are 7-10 people going there and this means a lot of competition. I myself witnessed when Hunter left the group, because there were 3 Hunters in the group, with the words: “I wanted to go for loot, but I won’t get anything there.
Take off your rose-colored glasses.

I think I have a good idea of who you're ingame. And what you say is false, people escort others to the mailbox and get them through maraudon first. Then a group gets formed for LBRS and Core people tank and heal it while members and recruits come for the quest/loot. Next day Scholo's are formed and DMW. People run BRD for HoJ and other gear and you get help with HFQ cause you can 3 man it. Lastly a UBRS is planned and for people to complete there quest. It might not always be like this but its what I have experienced so far. But people come in and expect to get everything to thrown into there lap and not give anything back to the guild. And so what if a hunter drops out because he doesn't want to compete, you have 8 other people there to clear the content? What you on about?

[Pristn]

"Why is it good to force players?"
Dude you literally chose to play a game mode that forces you to essentially delete your character on death, in a game that was never designed for this.
You wanted force. This is it.

You can control the mouse with your feet, and press the buttons with your nose. You can try to kill Ragnaros in just your shorts. This is not a difficulty - these are crutches. It's enough that you can lose a character equipped at level 60 and you will have to level up again. Without auction and with 1 life you need to go through 4 huge and difficult raids. And We don't count 20ppl dungeons. Do you think it's easy and every 60th hardcore player can achieve it? Why invent stupid and unnecessary complications? And it will be so difficult!

[Vliqta]

You have not answered a single one of these questions.

I did answer your questions and i'm going to do it again. You repeating them doesn't invalidate the answers given.

1. Why is it good that players that choose to play the hc game mode solo are forced to quit playing at 59 and cannot go to 60 without the necessity to do a lengthy quest chain first?

It wasn't intended for solo players, it was intended for end game content raiding. So its neither good or bad, you are just not in the equation because its a very niche community.

2. If it is not good and okay, why argue against changing it?

I don't have to answer this since i don't think its either good or bad for solo players. As the reason why I argue is because i don't want it to be changed.

3. How is it good that you force a game mode and play style upon players that don't want to do this?

I answered the question already 5 times. I'm not gonna answer it again. Hint: it has to do with the answers to point 1 and point 2.

4. Do you think it would be good design to force players that are only interested in pve to gain access to said pve content via mandatory pvp content?

No, because you're talking about the majority here. You going to an extreme to make your point whilest i'm talking about a sizeable playerbase. Again Turtle WoW cannot cater to your self impose desires.

5. If not, why defend it?

I'm defending it because previous answer.


I hope this will satisfy you now.

[Vliqta]

"Why is it good to force players?"
Dude you literally chose to play a game mode that forces you to essentially delete your character on death, in a game that was never designed for this.
You wanted force. This is it.

You can control the mouse with your feet, and press the buttons with your nose. You can try to kill Ragnaros in just your shorts. This is not a difficulty - these are crutches. It's enough that you can lose a character equipped at level 60 and you will have to level up again. Without auction and with 1 life you need to go through 4 huge and difficult raids. And We don't count 20ppl dungeons. Do you think it's easy and every 60th hardcore player can achieve it? Why invent stupid and unnecessary complications? And it will be so difficult!

Because the questline is a basis to build upon.

[Pristn]

Because the questline is a basis to build upon.

Well, let this chain be at 60m and let it continue with the quest in ZG AK20 and other things. Who is against it?

[Baess]

By that logic, any would be raider should also be required to complete a massive attunement before being alllowed to get level 60. Getting to 60 and farming endgame preBiS is your basis to build on, not having the last level being gatekept by a long chain.

Dont misunderstand me here, I have always been a fan long quest lines and challenging content but in my honest, humble opinion I believe this current requirement is excluding alot of people from the extra challenge and thrill of level 60 HC on turtle. Which in fairness is the best version of HC around

[Dracosh]

- This is a "crutch" that prevents players from playing, and they will drop players at level 59, that's a fact
- This is a raid quest where players are needed not level 55, not level 56, but level 59 and 7+ players (the quest is raid), and dungeons that are not selected by level, more than half are level 60. Finding 7+ level 59 players is already a difficult quest.
Being a tank and having a healer friend, we were looking for 4 days in Sholomas for players. The "Hard chores" guild couldn't or didn't want to help, and there were people who could help, but they were busy farming Sholomans!!! Strange? They want to go to Molten Cor in August - good luck. With such an attitude towards the players, they will not go even in a year.
Therefore, I will quit the game and come back in 2-3 months (probably), maybe more players will appear, or maybe people will leave because of an unsuccessful (in my opinion) situation - to go to the 60th level of hardcore

[Vliqta]

- This is a "crutch" that prevents players from playing, and they will drop players at level 59, that's a fact
- This is a raid quest where players are needed not level 55, not level 56, but level 59 and 7+ players (the quest is raid), and dungeons that are not selected by level, more than half are level 60. Finding 7+ level 59 players is already a difficult quest.
Being a tank and having a healer friend, we were looking for 4 days in Sholomas for players. The "Hard chores" guild couldn't or didn't want to help, and there were people who could help, but they were busy farming Sholomans!!! Strange? They want to go to Molten Cor in August - good luck. With such an attitude towards the players, they will not go even in a year.
Therefore, I will quit the game and come back in 2-3 months (probably), maybe more players will appear, or maybe people will leave because of an unsuccessful (in my opinion) situation - to go to the 60th level of hardcore

Well this confirms it then, you and pristn can continue but its clear you don't have the patience needed to join an inferno guild. And fyi, the people who where doing scholo where helping out other people doing the inferno questline. So it invalidates everything you said about the guild. And an extra fyi I actually helped one of you guys getting to the mailbox and in the the first couple of instances. That of course you don't mention.

[Pristn]

Well this confirms it then, you and pristn can continue but its clear you don't have the patience needed to join an inferno guild. And fyi, the people who where doing scholo where helping out other people doing the inferno questline. So it invalidates everything you said about the guild. And an extra fyi I actually helped one of you guys getting to the mailbox and in the the first couple of instances. That of course you don't mention.

Listen why you don't understand I'm surprised. Here is a tank and heal. We played every evening and would now go dungeons together. And together with you. We have game experience - all vanilla content. But we can't, because the stupid quest doesn't allow anyone to play. Not only to us.
Patience has nothing to do with it. Patience is when 70 visits to the BRD does not drop the earring on the heal. But I would not call it patience to sit and wait for 4-6 hours online locking for a group to the dungeon that is needed for this quest (this step) at the moment. And the next evening we will again wait 4 hours to maybe go to another dungeon, but it's not 100% that there will be a group.

[Darktifa]

I loved the new inferno quest
But i agree with OP that if you have multiple HC chars at 59.9%, it gonna be boring
So my suggestions is to follow Blizzard's Wisdom
and charge 30$ for a free inferno ticket!

[Gladeshadow]

I play exclusively HC mode. What’s nice and inviting about HC is that players can do it however they want. Play exclusively solo, play a duo with a friend, do dungeons or not, etc. That’s part of what is great and *inclusive* about HC.

The long quest chain for 60 HC means anyone who wants to continue playing HC at 60 can’t be the kind of player that chooses to solo content, avoid dungeons, or be any other type of HC player who might for whatever reason not do the dungeons. So HC at 60 instead becomes *exclusive*, which isn’t a great thing. Not everyone who wants to continue HC at 60 wants to dungeon, much less raid. The quest chain seems completely out of spirit with the whole Turtle HC “play how you want” experience and instead, even as we see in many of the posts in this thread, a raider experience. Not everyone wants that, and I see a fair amount of the exclusive and frankly toxic “raider experience is the only experience” mentality on this thread.

Making the choice to stay mortal at 60 isn’t hurting anyone, but the long quest chain for it certainly is hurting a fair number of players. So I venture that it ought to be changed.

[Dracosh]

Well this confirms it then, you and pristn can continue but its clear you don't have the patience needed to join an inferno guild. And fyi, the people who where doing scholo where helping out other people doing the inferno questline. So it invalidates everything you said about the guild. And an extra fyi I actually helped one of you guys getting to the mailbox and in the the first couple of instances. That of course you don't mention.

This is YOU wrong. Guild " Hard chores"with players - does not want to help in this quest, because of the unwillingness to help. I repeat - we were looking for people for 4 days. There were people in the guild, but they didn't want to help. Given that I spammed the message in three different channels, I can assume 2 options. 1) there are very few people who have reached level 59. 2) those who managed to complete this quest - do not want to help, because they do not want or they do not trust other players, and they have already lost some of their players for various reasons.

And what about the help "to get to the mailbox", we helped many people to get there and more than once, like us (although we always played with two people and reached it ourselves more than once).
The very essence of the problem is the lack of people to go and do the quest. Therefore, I consider this quest to be superfluous, it simply does not allow you to play at level 60 until you complete it.
p.s. is there another hardcore guild with 10+ players online?

[Vliqta]

I play exclusively HC mode. What’s nice and inviting about HC is that players can do it however they want. Play exclusively solo, play a duo with a friend, do dungeons or not, etc. That’s part of what is great and *inclusive* about HC.

The long quest chain for 60 HC means anyone who wants to continue playing HC at 60 can’t be the kind of player that chooses to solo content, avoid dungeons, or be any other type of HC player who might for whatever reason not do the dungeons. So HC at 60 instead becomes *exclusive*, which isn’t a great thing. Not everyone who wants to continue HC at 60 wants to dungeon, much less raid. The quest chain seems completely out of spirit with the whole Turtle HC “play how you want” experience and instead, even as we see in many of the posts in this thread, a raider experience. Not everyone wants that, and I see a fair amount of the exclusive and frankly toxic “raider experience is the only experience” mentality on this thread.

Making the choice to stay mortal at 60 isn’t hurting anyone, but the long quest chain for it certainly is hurting a fair number of players. So I venture that it ought to be changed.

You're not locked out, you can still do the dungeons and go solo from there. Maybe it's best to setup your own vanilla private server and have a blast alone in the world cause that what it sounds like. HC isn't inclusive at all its restricting and you're restricting yourself from grouping. Self impsed law you do, Turtle WoW cannot cater to your own laws and desires.

[Vliqta]

Well this confirms it then, you and pristn can continue but its clear you don't have the patience needed to join an inferno guild. And fyi, the people who where doing scholo where helping out other people doing the inferno questline. So it invalidates everything you said about the guild. And an extra fyi I actually helped one of you guys getting to the mailbox and in the the first couple of instances. That of course you don't mention.

This is YOU wrong. Guild " Hard chores"with players - does not want to help in this quest, because of the unwillingness to help. I repeat - we were looking for people for 4 days. There were people in the guild, but they didn't want to help. Given that I spammed the message in three different channels, I can assume 2 options. 1) there are very few people who have reached level 59. 2) those who managed to complete this quest - do not want to help, because they do not want or they do not trust other players, and they have already lost some of their players for various reasons.

And what about the help "to get to the mailbox", we helped many people to get there and more than once, like us (although we always played with two people and reached it ourselves more than once).
The very essence of the problem is the lack of people to go and do the quest. Therefore, I consider this quest to be superfluous, it simply does not allow you to play at level 60 until you complete it.
p.s. is there another hardcore guild with 10+ players online?

You want me to show how many people want to help out in this endeavor? Its more of an attitude problem, recieve all, give nothing back kinda style.

[Gladeshadow]

I play exclusively HC mode. What’s nice and inviting about HC is that players can do it however they want. Play exclusively solo, play a duo with a friend, do dungeons or not, etc. That’s part of what is great and *inclusive* about HC.

The long quest chain for 60 HC means anyone who wants to continue playing HC at 60 can’t be the kind of player that chooses to solo content, avoid dungeons, or be any other type of HC player who might for whatever reason not do the dungeons. So HC at 60 instead becomes *exclusive*, which isn’t a great thing. Not everyone who wants to continue HC at 60 wants to dungeon, much less raid. The quest chain seems completely out of spirit with the whole Turtle HC “play how you want” experience and instead, even as we see in many of the posts in this thread, a raider experience. Not everyone wants that, and I see a fair amount of the exclusive and frankly toxic “raider experience is the only experience” mentality on this thread.

Making the choice to stay mortal at 60 isn’t hurting anyone, but the long quest chain for it certainly is hurting a fair number of players. So I venture that it ought to be changed.

You're not locked out, you can still do the dungeons and go solo from there. Maybe it's best to setup your own vanilla private server and have a blast alone in the world cause that what it sounds like. HC isn't inclusive at all its restricting and you're restricting yourself from grouping. Self impsed law you do, Turtle WoW cannot cater to your own laws and desires.

And you completely missed the point about inclusivity being a big thing turtle wow is about vs exclusivity. People who don’t want to do dungeons or raid or anything of the nature in staying mortal at 60 are indeed locked out. Telling me or anyone else to make our own private server really isn’t helping anyone. You need to up your trolling or perhaps just try to think of a better solution. A long version of saying “cope” isn’t cutting it.

Edit: So you know, I’m not even interested in staying mortal at 60 for several reasons, one including the kind of attitude you and some are displaying. I dungeon and group as well. But that aside, it’s completely obvious why the long quest chain is not ideal.

[Hctwowfan]

You have not answered a single one of these questions.

I did answer your questions and i'm going to do it again. You repeating them doesn't invalidate the answers given.

1. Why is it good that players that choose to play the hc game mode solo are forced to quit playing at 59 and cannot go to 60 without the necessity to do a lengthy quest chain first?

It wasn't intended for solo players, it was intended for end game content raiding. So its neither good or bad, you are just not in the equation because its a very niche community.

2. If it is not good and okay, why argue against changing it?

I don't have to answer this since i don't think its either good or bad for solo players. As the reason why I argue is because i don't want it to be changed.

3. How is it good that you force a game mode and play style upon players that don't want to do this?

I answered the question already 5 times. I'm not gonna answer it again. Hint: it has to do with the answers to point 1 and point 2.

4. Do you think it would be good design to force players that are only interested in pve to gain access to said pve content via mandatory pvp content?

No, because you're talking about the majority here. You going to an extreme to make your point whilest i'm talking about a sizeable playerbase. Again Turtle WoW cannot cater to your self impose desires.

5. If not, why defend it?

I'm defending it because previous answer.


I hope this will satisfy you now.

You did in fact not answer any of the questions. You keep beating around the bushes and make up questions on the fly to prove your point (whatever that is).

I really didnt think I'd have to dumb it down any further, but here we go (no offense intended). Answer the following questions to yourself:

1. Is there a way to play hc at 60? Yes
2. Does it need to complete a quest? Yes
3. Does that quest need a group of players? Yes
4. Are there hc players that dont want to group? Yes
5. Are said players therefore unable to play hc 60? Yes
6. Would it be beneficial to said players if there was a different option? Yes
7. Would introducing a different option have no effect on your game play and play style? Yes
8. Would the entire hc community benefit from more people being able to play at 60? Yes
9. Would the hc raiding community benefit from a healthy populated hc community? Yes
10. Is there zero negatives for hc raiding community? Yes
11. Would the inferno mode quest remain the same? Yes
12. Would you still get all your benefits from doing said quest? Yes
13. Would it be unwise to exclude players from hc 60? Yes
14. But you still want to exclude a part of the player base? Yes
15. Is this the hill you want to die on? Apparently yes

The website currently lists every immortal toon as lvl 60 so I cannot check how many people have actually completed the quest compared to the nearly 200 toons sitting at lvl 59. You, good sir, are living in a bubble if you assume that the hardcore raiding community is way bigger than the amount of people that just want to be left alone and play their game.

[Hctwowfan]

Well this confirms it then, you and pristn can continue but its clear you don't have the patience needed to join an inferno guild. And fyi, the people who where doing scholo where helping out other people doing the inferno questline. So it invalidates everything you said about the guild. And an extra fyi I actually helped one of you guys getting to the mailbox and in the the first couple of instances. That of course you don't mention.

This is YOU wrong. Guild " Hard chores"with players - does not want to help in this quest, because of the unwillingness to help. I repeat - we were looking for people for 4 days. There were people in the guild, but they didn't want to help. Given that I spammed the message in three different channels, I can assume 2 options. 1) there are very few people who have reached level 59. 2) those who managed to complete this quest - do not want to help, because they do not want or they do not trust other players, and they have already lost some of their players for various reasons.

And what about the help "to get to the mailbox", we helped many people to get there and more than once, like us (although we always played with two people and reached it ourselves more than once).
The very essence of the problem is the lack of people to go and do the quest. Therefore, I consider this quest to be superfluous, it simply does not allow you to play at level 60 until you complete it.
p.s. is there another hardcore guild with 10+ players online?

You want me to show how many people want to help out in this endeavor? Its more of an attitude problem, recieve all, give nothing back kinda style.

We dont want your help. We just want to play the game the way we want to. We dont need the almighty saviors of hc raiders to navigate us through content we dont want or need. Sorry for not being thankful for the offered help that NOBODY has asked for.

[Gladeshadow]

What’s completely ironic is defending something that was ADDED recently (Inferno Mode and the long quest chain) as perfect and telling anyone who disagrees to make their own private server. Why didn’t this person make their own private server before inferno mode was added in that case? Logic out the window.

In terms of a solution, just having HC players go back to the HC quest giver at 55-59 (or whatever) to accept inferno mode would work. It would indeed be appropriate since the quest giver alludes to seeing you again.

[Pristn]

8. Would the entire hc community benefit from more people being able to play at 60? Yes
9. Would the hc raiding community benefit from a healthy populated hc community? Yes
10. Is there zero negatives for hc raiding community? Yes

No! It is necessary that 2.5 cripples play on Inferno and feel their fat coolness.

[Vliqta]

I play exclusively HC mode. What’s nice and inviting about HC is that players can do it however they want. Play exclusively solo, play a duo with a friend, do dungeons or not, etc. That’s part of what is great and *inclusive* about HC.

The long quest chain for 60 HC means anyone who wants to continue playing HC at 60 can’t be the kind of player that chooses to solo content, avoid dungeons, or be any other type of HC player who might for whatever reason not do the dungeons. So HC at 60 instead becomes *exclusive*, which isn’t a great thing. Not everyone who wants to continue HC at 60 wants to dungeon, much less raid. The quest chain seems completely out of spirit with the whole Turtle HC “play how you want” experience and instead, even as we see in many of the posts in this thread, a raider experience. Not everyone wants that, and I see a fair amount of the exclusive and frankly toxic “raider experience is the only experience” mentality on this thread.

Making the choice to stay mortal at 60 isn’t hurting anyone, but the long quest chain for it certainly is hurting a fair number of players. So I venture that it ought to be changed.

You're not locked out, you can still do the dungeons and go solo from there. Maybe it's best to setup your own vanilla private server and have a blast alone in the world cause that what it sounds like. HC isn't inclusive at all its restricting and you're restricting yourself from grouping. Self impsed law you do, Turtle WoW cannot cater to your own laws and desires.

And you completely missed the point about inclusivity being a big thing turtle wow is about vs exclusivity. People who don’t want to do dungeons or raid or anything of the nature in staying mortal at 60 are indeed locked out. Telling me or anyone else to make our own private server really isn’t helping anyone. You need to up your trolling or perhaps just try to think of a better solution. A long version of saying “cope” isn’t cutting it.

Edit: So you know, I’m not even interested in staying mortal at 60 for several reasons, one including the kind of attitude you and some are displaying. I dungeon and group as well. But that aside, it’s completely obvious why the long quest chain is not ideal.

I'm not trolling, its a topic about the quest for inferno mode. I gave my points on why i think the quest is fine as it is.
Solo players have a hard time doing it which i said on multiple occasions. You just can't satisfy the people who wanne be mortal at 60 without doing end game content, world bosses, dungeons, raids,.. but rather do quest or explore is a minority which Turtle WoW didn't cater to at this point in time.

Tell me how inclusive is hardcore mode ? You can't interact for quest/items with 75 % of the player base. And of the 25% that does Hardcore only those who are 5 levels apart you can play with. The Turtle WoW team provided this option with the limitations and options and thats where it ends. And i'm grateful for that!

People like you would whine because your self imposed restriction isn't met, well though luck it isn't as of now. You can complain on here but don't be suprised to get pushback as to why people like me see the benefit of this quest.

[Vliqta]

What’s completely ironic is defending something that was ADDED recently (Inferno Mode and the long quest chain) as perfect and telling anyone who disagrees to make their own private server. Why didn’t this person make their own private server before inferno mode was added in that case? Logic out the window.

In terms of a solution, just having HC players go back to the HC quest giver at 55-59 (or whatever) to accept inferno mode would work. It would indeed be appropriate since the quest giver alludes to seeing you again.

I didn't say it was perfect, thank you for putting words in my mouth there. Maybe the questgiver can become the mailbox and but the quest remain the same. And I don't think you understand the concept of a forum, you just can't take any critique.

Why didn’t this person make their own private server before inferno mode was added in that case? Logic out the window.

People LOCKED THEMSELF AT 59 to do the endgame content, maybe take a note out of that book.

[Vliqta]

You did in fact not answer any of the questions. You keep beating around the bushes and make up questions on the fly to prove your point (whatever that is).

Adressed all your point. And your personal attacks won't help you at all.
Try to stay civil.

[Hctwowfan]

You did in fact not answer any of the questions. You keep beating around the bushes and make up questions on the fly to prove your point (whatever that is).

Adressed all your point. And your personal attacks won't help you at all.
Try to stay civil.

So now you're even making up personal attacks that never happened.

Did you answer any of the 15 questions on my last post with no? If so, which ones?

[Pristn]

to Vliqta
Quests like this split the turtle community, and you're a prime example.
1 I took Inferno and you are not, you are unworthy.
2 I got exclusive content, I'm special.
3 I am. I am. I am. I am.

[Baess]

How about revisit our stranger friend at 59 to accept mortality at 60. Then get the inferno quest for title and rewards if we are brave enough ..... also ...... have this as a HC exclusive raid attunement. So, you want to raid, fine, go inferno. That way raid groups can vet potential griefers if thats a concern.

Cant see any defense from people not wanting to do the chain if they complain about not being invited to raid. If you have time to commit to raiding, you certainly have time to complete this chain. If not then be happy at 60 playing how you want with maybe the occasional dungeon run. Play style or lifestyle changes awesome, go do inferno quest and then slap raggy

[Hctwowfan]

How about revisit our stranger friend at 59 to accept mortality at 60. Then get the inferno quest for title and rewards if we are brave enough ..... also ...... have this as a HC exclusive raid attunement. So, you want to raid, fine, go inferno. That way raid groups can vet potential griefers if thats a concern.

And that's all the solo players are asking for. But it is somehow bad for whatever reason.

[Vliqta]

How about revisit our stranger friend at 59 to accept mortality at 60. Then get the inferno quest for title and rewards if we are brave enough ..... also ...... have this as a HC exclusive raid attunement. So, you want to raid, fine, go inferno. That way raid groups can vet potential griefers if thats a concern.

And that's all the solo players are asking for. But it is somehow bad for whatever reason.

And all i am saying is that i like how it is and that it works for what it was designed.

How about this personal attack ?

I really didnt think I'd have to dumb it down any further, but here we go (no offense intended).

[Vliqta]

How about revisit our stranger friend at 59 to accept mortality at 60. Then get the inferno quest for title and rewards if we are brave enough ..... also ...... have this as a HC exclusive raid attunement. So, you want to raid, fine, go inferno. That way raid groups can vet potential griefers if thats a concern.

Cant see any defense from people not wanting to do the chain if they complain about not being invited to raid. If you have time to commit to raiding, you certainly have time to complete this chain. If not then be happy at 60 playing how you want with maybe the occasional dungeon run. Play style or lifestyle changes awesome, go do inferno quest and then slap raggy

Good solution! I'm all for that.

[Vliqta]

to Vliqta
Quests like this split the turtle community, and you're a prime example.
1 I took Inferno and you are not, you are unworthy.
2 I got exclusive content, I'm special.
3 I am. I am. I am. I am.

1. I did the rank 14 grind I get the weapons you don't
2. I have done the reputation grind for naxx, I can do the instance
3. I grinded to level 60 I'm able to quest high level zones

Want me to go on? This is a design philosophy, deal with it.

[Hctwowfan]

How about revisit our stranger friend at 59 to accept mortality at 60. Then get the inferno quest for title and rewards if we are brave enough ..... also ...... have this as a HC exclusive raid attunement. So, you want to raid, fine, go inferno. That way raid groups can vet potential griefers if thats a concern.

And that's all the solo players are asking for. But it is somehow bad for whatever reason.

And all i am saying is that i like how it is and that it works for what it was designed.

How about revisit our stranger friend at 59 to accept mortality at 60. Then get the inferno quest for title and rewards if we are brave enough ..... also ...... have this as a HC exclusive raid attunement. So, you want to raid, fine, go inferno. That way raid groups can vet potential griefers if thats a concern.

Cant see any defense from people not wanting to do the chain if they complain about not being invited to raid. If you have time to commit to raiding, you certainly have time to complete this chain. If not then be happy at 60 playing how you want with maybe the occasional dungeon run. Play style or lifestyle changes awesome, go do inferno quest and then slap raggy

Good solution! I'm all for that.

Why in the world do you keep disagreeing with everyone then when this is what we want and you somehow suddenly want it aswell? That's the 'you're not answering my questions, you're answering made up questions' part that is so annoying.

How about this personal attack ?

I really didnt think I'd have to dumb it down any further, but here we go (no offense intended).

Good lord, welcome to the interwebs. Which part of (no offense intended) did you not understand? You're taking yourself too serious if you think this was an offense that was directed at you.

Now that we apparently agree on everything: Good luck with raiding, take care.