Can Paladin just get a normal taunt like the other tanks?

[Werefox]

Well, no class is super good at tanking below 20. But overall paladins are doing fine in Deadmines and above.

[Xeapor]

Just don't play Paladin if you don't like it??

[Bigsmerf]

I don't see what the issue is here.

Pally taunt is shit right now.

Getting a regular taunt similar to warriors and bears would improve the class.

The class performs better and is thus more desirable.

Who the huffin' hootin' heck is losing out in this situation?

[Getplucked]

Who the huffin' hootin' heck is losing out in this situation?

warriors who insist that giving paladin a normal taunt will somehow invalidate the entire warrior class

[Dzonatan]

- AoE-Aggro

Only if DPS has the mental bandwidth to wait 2 seconds before going in hot before you get your BoS/HS/RA procs. If they go unga bunga from the get go then all mobs are running around. The real on demand AoE aggro paladin has comes from grenades xD

- Bubble to get out of critical debuffs if noone's there to dispell

Bubble wipes your aggro on all targets. You dont want that as a tank.

- Lay on Hands as a last resort

Lay on Hands wipes your mana. Not really good unless you have JoW up and abuse it procs mechanic to quickly recover.

- LOTS of Blocking due to Redoubt and Holy Shield

If they are both up then it's nice. Redoubt can choose not to proc and then you have only 30% from HS which may not be enough to proc itself and BoS on 1v1.

- Blessing of Salvation to reduce Threat of Group/Raid-Members.

Assuming other classes wont piss and moan for not getting proper blessings.

- Blessing of Protection if Boss aggros someone else and Taunt(SoJ/Judgement) isn't ready yet..

Erases Salvation if you use it which at this point is a DPS issue

- Judgement of Wisdom to provide casters with additional mana (not just yourself)

Unless you have a melee group, even then mobs melt so fast you can barely get enough mana to reimbuse the mana cost for seal/judge

I have 3 Tank-Paladins (60, 40, 25) and - as said - though i agree, that the Taunt for Paladins is inconvenient, we shouldn't complain, since we have a broad toolkit of abilities to use.

You should complain because those other tools are poor substitute for what we lack.

[Redmagejoe]

Bubble wipes your aggro on all targets. You dont want that as a tank.

Wipe isn't the right word here. It doesn't affect your threat generation, it simply makes it so that you cannot have aggro unless you are the only target. You can bubble and then click it off and mobs will immediately return to you.

Everything else in your post is spot-on though.

[Reploidrocsa]

While i see different opinions about the topic, the idea of having a proper tanking seal (seal deals minor holy damage with autoattacks and increases threat generation and judgment taunts the target) is the one i find most appealing, keeping class uniqueness.

[Regaldandin]

Paladins already have a taunt, its more than enough

[Redmagejoe]

Paladins already have a taunt, its more than enough

Objectively wrong.

[Bigsmerf]

Paladins already have a taunt, its more than enough

What does that make warrior and bear taunts?


Too much?

[Eldirian]

Paladin will never receive a warrior style taunt. Period.
The more you cry, complain and whine about it will not change anything. This is not retail.

[Redmagejoe]

Paladin will never receive a warrior style taunt. Period.

(He doesn't know.)

[Tasman]

Paladins already have a taunt, its more than enough

What does that make warrior and bear taunts?


Too much?

Considering lack of baseline taunt, it is only one of 3 prots problems here, devs need to add/change, much more than just one ability.

[Sinrek]

Warrior's main source is Rage. Requires Taunt to be effective.
Druid's Bear form is using Rage. Requires Taunt to be effective.

Paladin's source is mana. Besides he's got healing spells, which is one of his core class abilities. Does not require taunt to be effective.

[Redmagejoe]

Does not require taunt to be effective.

Objectively wrong.

But in all seriousness, I feel that some people believe that Mana is somehow superior to Rage simply because of the fact that you (theoretically) start with a full bar. There's more nuance to this, such as costs in terms of percentage, how easily the resource is generated versus how easily it is lost, and a number of other factors that have to be taken into account. When all is said and done, it is easily observable that Mana as a resource for tanking is actually significantly more prohibitive than Rage.

[Sinrek]

Does not require taunt to be effective.

Objectively wrong.

But in all seriousness, I feel that some people believe that Mana is somehow superior to Rage simply because of the fact that you (theoretically) start with a full bar. There's more nuance to this, such as costs in terms of percentage, how easily the resource is generated versus how easily it is lost, and a number of other factors that have to be taken into account. When all is said and done, it is easily observable that Mana as a resource for tanking is actually significantly more prohibitive than Rage.

Exactly my point.

Rage can't go up above 100, unlike mana. Rage doesn't regenerate while you're out of combat and does not depend on your spirit. So by design, you need steadily get hit while you're in combat to generate rage, unlike mana, therefore you need some sort of a tool to mobs always hate you.

On the other hand, Paladins might benefit when mobs do not hit them and take those sweet moments to cast something like Holy Light or Flash of Light on their allies to never have their spell casting delayed by getting hit.

[Redmagejoe]

Rage can't go up above 100, unlike mana. Rage doesn't regenerate while you're out of combat and does not depend on your spirit. So by design, you need steadily get hit while you're in combat to generate rage, unlike mana, therefore you need some sort of a tool to mobs always hate you.

Rage isn't even remotely as hard to acquire as you seem to think, nor is threat to generate as a Warrior.

[Zynim]

As someone who has never played paladin, what do pally's want? Replace the talent Improved Seal of Justice 3/3 with a Taunt talent where 1/3 = Normal taunt 2/3 = -1 second, 3/3 = -2 seconds?

I'm not against a dedicated taunt if the current talent is broken or not working as intended. But, I also see the "nerf paladins" comment almost every other day on this forum. Would you all submit to nerfing some abilities in order to gain a dedicated taunt or is this one of those "I only want changes that benefit the class I currently play" scenarios.

Either way if the current taunt is ineffective might as well just swap out talent with the normal taunt spell, more people being comfortable tanking would benefit a lot of players.

[Redmagejoe]

People aren't asking Tankadins to be nerfed. They're asking for Shockadins and Retadins to be nerfed. As for what Tankadins want, we want the spell that was put into the game by Turtle and is clearly visible on the database and in-game when you use the really janky Improved Seal of Justice (Hand of Reckoning), to simply be trainable at the class trainer at level 10. It would require next to no work on the backend.

[Zynim]

People aren't asking Tankadins to be nerfed. They're asking for Shockadins and Retadins to be nerfed. As for what Tankadins want, we want the spell that was put into the game by Turtle and is clearly visible on the database and in-game when you use the really janky Improved Seal of Justice (Hand of Reckoning), to simply be trainable at the class trainer at level 10. It would require next to no work on the backend.

Ahh, so it's like Champion's Grace. Hopefully, it will at least be addressed in the next major patch.

[Getplucked]

As someone who has never played paladin, what do pally's want?

I want a normal taunt, not a janky "use your judgement to taunt" thing which is objectively worse than what Warrior/Druid has for taunts.

It's a cool idea on paper, but in practice it's just awful to use. Paladin is already the weakest tank, defensive-wise; there's no reason to give us this weird awful taunt instead of a normal one.

[Tasman]

As someone who has never played paladin, what do pally's want? Replace the talent Improved Seal of Justice 3/3 with a Taunt talent where 1/3 = Normal taunt 2/3 = -1 second, 3/3 = -2 seconds?

Not only addition of baseline taunt, paladin need reworked [Seal of Justice], that should decrease running speed to normal like it was during TBC. In vanilla it was useless in pve and pvp, devs tryed to fix it, turning in to taunt, that didnt go well, it is still useless in both ways.
As for its talent in prot tree, it can be turned in to 33/66/100% chance immobilizing enemy for 2 sec or something else. This will fix problem with countering high mobility targets like shamans, druids and hunters. I dont like this addiction to SoC and [Frost Oil] that devs put us through, but without it paladin, will be kited and it is pure hell to fight on BGs.

[Isvya]

Improved seal of justice:
While under effect of seal of justice your judgement spell has 10/15/20 yard increased range and will cause a high amount of threat. - ranged pull

Hand of reckoning - either a 1pt talent or trainable between level 10-20.

[Tasman]

Improved seal of justice:
While under effect of seal of justice your judgement spell has 10/15/20 yard increased range and will cause a high amount of threat. - ranged pull

Hand of reckoning - either a 1pt talent or trainable between level 10-20.

[Hand of reckoning] - original wotlk version already has 30 yard range.
So there is no need to make SoJ as a taunt. It should be reworked for pvp purposes, because it doesn't have useful effect for tanking, when it is on paladin. We already have SoR as main threat generation seal. Requirement to use third seal complicates tanking process, paladin already need to use SoW and SoR, to maintain mana and threat.

[Isvya]

Improved seal of justice:
While under effect of seal of justice your judgement spell has 10/15/20 yard increased range and will cause a high amount of threat. - ranged pull

Hand of reckoning - either a 1pt talent or trainable between level 10-20.

[Hand of reckoning] - original wotlk version already has 30 yard range.
So there is no need to make SoJ as a taunt. It should be reworked for pvp purposes, because it doesn't have useful effect for tanking, when it is on paladin. We already have SoR as main threat generation seal. Requirement to use third seal complicates tanking process, paladin already need to use SoW and SoR, to maintain mana and threat.

Ok. Not like i wrote anything like soj being a taunt but sure.

[Bigsmerf]

We could also just port hand of reckoning from TBC... Idk if we should keep the range on it but pally also doesn't have a ranged pull... Should we ask for a ranged pull too...? Even as a bear tank I think I'd like pally to have a ranged pull...

[Sinrek]

We could also just port hand of reckoning from TBC... Idk if we should keep the range on it but pally also doesn't have a ranged pull... Should we ask for a ranged pull too...? Even as a bear tank I think I'd like pally to have a ranged pull...

Two words.

Magic Candles.

[Getplucked]

Or just use dynamite since they're much easier to get and have the added bonus of giving you a good chunk of snap threat and sometimes even proccing Vengeance (which I find hilarious)

[Tasman]

We could also just port hand of reckoning from TBC... Idk if we should keep the range on it but pally also doesn't have a ranged pull... Should we ask for a ranged pull too...? Even as a bear tank I think I'd like pally to have a ranged pull...

There was no [Hand of Reckoning] in TBC, it was added in wotlk. In TBC paladin had [Righteous Defense] baseline skill that was trained at 14 lvl, with different taunting mechanic. Paladin used it on friendly target, that was attacked by multiple mobs (max enemies 3) and they would be taunted on paladin. So it was something like, a mass taunt. And it also made its way to wotlk expansion from TBC.
[Hand of Reckoning] would be superrior to warriors and druids taunts, but I consider it fair, because they have 3 and 2 taunts, when paladin will have only one.

[Getplucked]

Yeah, that too. Warrior has three taunts (taunt, mocking blow, challenging shout) and Druid has two (growl, challenging roar), so Paladin with only one taunt, should actually have a BETTER taunt than the others, not a worse one.

Certainly could kill two birds with one stone by giving it a 30 yard range and maybe deal some extra holy damage if the target is not targeting you.

[Dzonatan]

As someone who has never played paladin, what do pally's want?

Baseline taunt.
Scaling Crusader Strike for more 1v1 threat.
If not then 2 versions of Judge with Wisdom or Light built in so we can use SoR from the get go for building threat.
DPS CD, fine if it comes with Forbearance.
Def CD, fine if it comes with talents like Warrior's Last Stand.

Either way if the current taunt is ineffective might as well just swap out talent with the normal taunt spell, more people being comfortable tanking would benefit a lot of players.

I would not be against turning Seal of Justice into a Cleave Seal.

[Tasman]

Yeah, that too. Warrior has three taunts (taunt, mocking blow, challenging shout) and Druid has two (growl, challenging roar), so Paladin with only one taunt, should actually have a BETTER taunt than the others, not a worse one.

Certainly could kill two birds with one stone by giving it a 30 yard range and maybe deal some extra holy damage if the target is not targeting you.

Prot tree improvements should be wieved in 3 main directions (lack of baseline taunt is only one of many problems):

1.Threat maintenance:
1.1.Give baseline [Hand of Reckoning], that would be trained at 10 lvl, it's non changed wotlk version.
1.2.SoJ should reduce targets movement speed to normal, when discharged, like it was in TBC. As for its talent in prot tree, it can be turned in to 33/66/100% chance immobilizing enemy for 2 sec or something else. This also will fix problem with countering high mobility targets like shamans, druids and hunters.
1.3.[Reckoning] - make it grant an extra attack, after shield block, parry, dodge occured. It will fix current contradiction with defese skill and will benefit from this stat.
1.4.Addition wotlk version of [Avenger's Shield] as 31 point talent, with instant use (TBC version had 1 sec. cast), for burst aggro on multiple targets and easy mob packs pull.

2.Mana regeneration:
2.1. [Spiritual Attunement] - 2 point talent at row 6 of prot tree. That will provide paladin with 10% of mana from the amount healed hp. It will improve threat generation with spells, because prots mana drains very fast.

3.Surviability improvements:
3.1.[Improved Devotion Aura] - add extra 10 defese skill (at rank 5) to this talent and move it, from row 1 to 2. Talents [Precision] and [Guardian's Favour] they should be moved to row 1, to make them more accessible to ret an holy specs.
3.2.[Toughness] - add bonus that will provide +5 points of resistance to all schools of magic (at rank 5).
3.3.[Anticipation] - change it from granting 10 of defense (due to defense as bonus moved to [Improved Devotion Aura]), to 5% of dodge (at rank 5).
3.3.[Imroved Righteous Fury] - add all damage reduction by 6% (at rank 3).
3.4.[Blessing of Sanctuary] - add hp increase bonus rank 1 - 2%, rank 2 - 3%, rank 3 - 4%, rank 4 - 5%.
3.5.[Ardent Defender] - make it 3 point talent like it was in wotlk, but at row 6. It will give 7/13/20% damage reduction when below 35% of health and heals paladin for 10/20/30% of his hp when he recieves killing blow. Talent cooldown 2 - 3 min.
3.6.Change [Divine Protection] - to provide reduction of all incoming damage by 50%.

[Aletius]

Yeah, that too. Warrior has three taunts (taunt, mocking blow, challenging shout) and Druid has two (growl, challenging roar), so Paladin with only one taunt, should actually have a BETTER taunt than the others, not a worse one.

Certainly could kill two birds with one stone by giving it a 30 yard range and maybe deal some extra holy damage if the target is not targeting you.

Class Balance, Warrior and Druid doesn't have things that pally has. Your class already got new spells and mechanics to taunt and generate more aggro, stop asking for more...

[Calli]

I appreciate the devs to make SoR and SotC more viable than it was in vanilla. I think the fix for Judgement of Justice is a big improvement and good as it is.

Just add enough damage and threat to Seal of Justice instead of the stun effect, (even dot damage for example like blizz did it in BC with Seal of Vengeance), to be comparable to Seal of Righteousness without using the judgement and the taunt mechanic will be fine like that, no need to change the seal in combat that way, and you are ready to taunt effectively any time. So it will become the base tanking seal with its taunt judgement.

Comparable I mean if you do x damage while SoR is up and make y damage with its judgement, then make SoJ make x+y damage while it is up and taunt on that judgement like it is now.

We have exorcism already for ranged pull, it would be nice without the undead restriction.
We can generate mana and threat with shield block already.

Currently paladin tanks use Vengeance, that leads to an awkward talent composition. Top tier prot talents should be more beneficial to be worth to take and not go into the Ret tree that much.

[Calli]

Yeah, that too. Warrior has three taunts (taunt, mocking blow, challenging shout) and Druid has two (growl, challenging roar), so Paladin with only one taunt, should actually have a BETTER taunt than the others, not a worse one.

Certainly could kill two birds with one stone by giving it a 30 yard range and maybe deal some extra holy damage if the target is not targeting you.

Prot tree improvements should be wieved in 3 main directions (lack of baseline taunt is only one of many problems):

1.Threat maintenance:
1.1.Give baseline [Hand of Reckoning], that would be trained at 10 lvl, it's non changed wotlk version.
1.2.SoJ should reduce targets movement speed to normal, when discharged, like it was in TBC. As for its talent in prot tree, it can be turned in to 33/66/100% chance immobilizing enemy for 2 sec or something else. This also will fix problem with countering high mobility targets like shamans, druids and hunters.
1.3.[Reckoning] - make it grant an extra attack, after shield block, parry, dodge occured. It will fix current contradiction with defese skill and will benefit from this stat.
1.4.Addition wotlk version of [Avenger's Shield] as 31 point talent, with instant use (TBC version had 1 sec. cast), for burst aggro on multiple targets and easy mob packs pull.

2.Mana regeneration:
2.1. [Spiritual Attunement] - 2 point talent at row 6 of prot tree. That will provide paladin with 10% of mana from the amount healed hp. It will improve threat generation with spells, because prots mana drains very fast.

3.Surviability improvements:
3.1.[Improved Devotion Aura] - add extra 10 defese skill (at rank 5) to this talent and move it, from row 1 to 2. Talents [Precision] and [Guardian's Favour] they should be moved to row 1, to make them more accessible to ret an holy specs.
3.2.[Toughness] - add bonus that will provide +5 points of resistance to all schools of magic (at rank 5).
3.3.[Anticipation] - change it from granting 10 of defense (due to defense as bonus moved to [Improved Devotion Aura]), to 5% of dodge (at rank 5).
3.3.[Imroved Righteous Fury] - add all damage reduction by 6% (at rank 3).
3.4.[Blessing of Sanctuary] - add hp increase bonus rank 1 - 2%, rank 2 - 3%, rank 3 - 4%, rank 4 - 5%.
3.5.[Ardent Defender] - make it 3 point talent like it was in wotlk, but at row 6. It will give 7/13/20% damage reduction when below 35% of health and heals paladin for 10/20/30% of his hp when he recieves killing blow. Talent cooldown 2 - 3 min.
3.6.Change [Divine Protection] - to provide reduction of all incoming damage by 50%.

I think this is too much, with this attitude all classes should get a rework. Let's try to be realistic.