Lack of Tanks in LFT

[Thornmail]

In my eyes the biggest issue for tanks queueing up for dungeons is that the need to massively over level the dungeon to be able to tank it effectively. my idea would help even out the xp disadvantage and encourage more people to tank. i think adding a daily/weekly dungeon quest just for tanks, would help tank players feel a little better about the time they spend running a dungeon with mostly grey/green mobs

[Karrados]

You don't need to massively over level the dungeon. More often than not I tanked dungeons while the mobs were yellow and in the end even orange and it worked out just fine.

The lack of Tanks is caused by there being dozens of DPS, a few Healer and barely any tanks. You need 1 Tank, 1 Healer and 3 DPS for a Dungeon.

There are way too many DPS for the amount of Healer and Tanks in the tool and I am not sure if a bribe quest would change anything about it.

[Redmagejoe]

As has been said a dozen times: There is not a lack of people who can tank. There is a lack of people willing to tank, all due to sociological issues, not game design ones.

It's the role with the highest amount of responsibility and therefore stress, and knowing that people in online communities tend to be unnecessarily critical and completely lacking in any higher brain faculties (like correlation and reasoning), people are incredibly apprehensive to tank. Some people just don't have the mental energy to risk a group that is going to shit on them at every turn or, better yet, remain dead silent and then do stupid shit that makes the tank pull their hair out.

[Anubish]

People critique and complain to tanks so much most don’t wanna bother.

[Rat2156]

There are plenty of tanks out there. They just don't bother with pugs

[Gentlebenrawr]

Tanks can't win. They either go too slow or too fast for people in the group. There's always a dps in a pug that thinks they need to lead the way and pull when the tank isn't ready, then get mad when the group wipes.

Personally I don't mind DPS doing this because I feel it makes me a better tank, but impatient people are probably the biggest reason most tanks won't queue in LFT.

I like what they did in Wrath, where they gave special chests to tanks and healers that had potential to drop cool things likes mounts.

[Aleatorians]

I understand the OP's point since I have played as a tank, and many groups don't let you tank unless you are overleveled. It becomes frustrating that you can't level up just by doing dungeons because in order to be allowed to tank, you need to be below the maximum level allowed in the dungeons so that they don't complain about you. That's why I stopped playing as a tank and now only play as a healer to take advantage of the lack of healers.

[Elesion]

In my eyes the biggest issue for tanks queueing up for dungeons is that the need to massively over level the dungeon to be able to tank it effectively.

It's a lot more complicated than just "be overleveled". Individual skill, practice and experience, confidence, talents, gear, and - yes - character level all matter, but they all can compensate each other. Also having good healers and good dps on board also influences how well the run will be going.

Being overleveled is taking the sledgehammer approach to a complicated issue. I would know, because that's what I did when I started levelling my warrior and had zero confidence in my tanking ability. But with every dungeon it gets better - I get more confident, more experienced, I learn what the class can do (and it's a lot!).

I used to be a strong proponent of overleveled tanks but recently several things have begun changing my mind - my own experience on my warrior alt and also an LBRS run with a lvl 55 tank. It was a *breeze* like I never would have believed without seeing. And they hadn't been to LBRS in years! But they were well geared, had a good talent build and knew what they were doing mechanically while a good group supported them. I've had several lvl 60 tanks utterly fail in LBRS, but the lvl 55 managed perfectly. Let that sink in.

knowing that people in online communities tend to be unnecessarily critical and completely lacking in any higher brain faculties (like correlation and reasoning), people are incredibly apprehensive to tank. Some people just don't have the mental energy to risk a group that is going to shit on them at every turn

People critique and complain to tanks so much most don’t wanna bother.

I have never witnessed this. Even with terrible tanks and groups falling apart I've never seen anyone lash out against the tank publicly. I'm sure it happens, but it's quite rare in my opinion. The occasional snarky message in a whisper between non-tanks is the most I've witnessed.

It's the role with the highest amount of responsibility and therefore stress

It is undoubtedly *a* role with high amount of stress and responsibility, but it still takes the whole group both to survive and fail. Healing, decursing, sheeping/sapping/frost trapping, even just basic positioning so you don't body pull or fall off ledge - you can stress about pretty much everything in a dungeon run.

Tanks can't win. They either go too slow or too fast for people in the group. There's always a dps in a pug that thinks they need to lead the way and pull when the tank isn't ready, then get mad when the group wipes.

That I think is hitting closest to the heart of the issue, at least in my experience. Tanks feel like they should lead the group (after all - nobody else is doing it) and that is a sucky job. It's like management in business - you sometimes have to make ugly decisions and be harsh with people. That is something I still struggle with a lot when I tank. I still don't have the balls to just kick someone who makes the run dangerous and/or unenjoyable for me and won't listen to reasonable requests. It's a bad social encounter to begin with, and what if they start flaming me, and do we find a replacement within reasonable time or will the first LFT match be on the other side of the world, etc. So I grit my teeth and try to make the best of it while it would be responsible of me to crack down. Probably just another experience/confidence issue (bringing us back to the start of the post).

[Edouchan]

turtle wow elites damage is artificially overturned because they used private server numbers, not official numbers.
most people dont want to deal with tanking that (I know some dungeons are fine, others arnt, but having to learn which is also an obstacle)

[Keds]

As has been said a dozen times: There is not a lack of people who can tank. There is a lack of people willing to tank, all due to sociological issues, not game design ones.

It's the role with the highest amount of responsibility and therefore stress, and knowing that people in online communities tend to be unnecessarily critical and completely lacking in any higher brain faculties (like correlation and reasoning), people are incredibly apprehensive to tank. Some people just don't have the mental energy to risk a group that is going to shit on them at every turn or, better yet, remain dead silent and then do stupid shit that makes the tank pull their hair out.

This. So, much, this.

I leveled as an Enh shaman, willing to tank, early dungeons people wasn't caring too much, but by the end of the leveling. People was just entering the group, seeing me as a tank, and either leaving or quitting just at the beginning because people aren't willing to wait just a little for me to get AOE aggro or taking my time drinking after some pulls. This was actually the cause for me and my 2 friends quit level 60 as we were and started leveling as 2 hybrids and a dps so we can form our groups ourselves.

[Saurug]

The social aspects are true, but they are true for many other MMOs. Casual tanking can be challenging but boring at the same time in vanilla. It's too much focused on threat and not on defensive play. Gear and not skill. While dps got worse over time in retail wow, tanks got a bit better (normalized, as not as challenging but not as boring). Ofc this is my perspective and some people might love to tank in vanilla but it is a game design choice that pushes a portion of the tanks away I believe.

[Kremmen]

tanking too stressful
me queue as dps, tank do hard work just for me to roll need against him
me charge mob packs the tank is trying to range pull and aggro another group in the process
me make party wipe
me get kicked from the party for not reading chat
me dps warrior
unga bunga

[Trymv1]

me charge mob packs the tank is trying to range pull and aggro another group in the process
me make party wipe
me dps warrior
unga bunga

PTSD of Mists first raid boss that I verbally told a DPS Warrior over comms '[Warrior], you are chained to a healer, please do not chase the boss or you'll kill me and wipe us.'

He answered 'Oh, okay.'

Then immediately charged after the boss... which killed me and wiped us.

That Captain Grimm 'DPS in a Nutshell' is the most realistic mindset of DPS on the planet.

[Drubarrymooer]

As has been said a dozen times: There is not a lack of people who can tank. There is a lack of people willing to tank, all due to sociological issues, not game design ones.

It's the role with the highest amount of responsibility and therefore stress, and knowing that people in online communities tend to be unnecessarily critical and completely lacking in any higher brain faculties (like correlation and reasoning), people are incredibly apprehensive to tank. Some people just don't have the mental energy to risk a group that is going to shit on them at every turn or, better yet, remain dead silent and then do stupid shit that makes the tank pull their hair out.

That. 100%. I tank on my main and I don't pug often. My alt can tank but I don't feel like pugging most of the time.

Not sure if linking is allowed here but this Viva La Dirt League video summed it up nice.

[Kairion]

In my eyes the biggest issue for tanks queueing up for dungeons is that the need to massively over level the dungeon to be able to tank it effectively. my idea would help even out the xp disadvantage and encourage more people to tank. i think adding a daily/weekly dungeon quest just for tanks, would help tank players feel a little better about the time they spend running a dungeon with mostly grey/green mobs

Funnily enough you make the tank shortage worse by implementing this. The few players who tank via the absolute RNG of LFT would just get the exp bonus and be done with the levelrange for the dungeon that much quicker. I'm not opposed to the idea of adding a little something to entice players back into a dungeon even if they dont need any loot from the place would be nice, but EXP is the wrong thing. Especially considering there is no way for the game to check who actually tanks, and so plenty of people would just pick it up and try to dps with the quest.

[Elesion]

me queue as dps, tank do hard work just for me to roll need against him
me charge mob packs the tank is trying to range pull and aggro another group in the process
me make party wipe

How is this so common xD

*twang* goes my bow
I hide behind the corner to los-pull the casters.
*whoosh* goes the dps warrior charging in
now the mobs stay around the corner and we have to fight there
inevitably a runner pulls another pack and we get close to a wipe or actually wipe

Just absolutely *love* it when that happens...

[Bob022]

A group that wants a n overleveled or overgeared tank is a group looking to be carried.

Aside from social factors that have been discussed elsewhere, other factors contribute to the tank/healer shortage as well. For example, WoW's small group size contributes: Each tank/healer pair can only take three others with them. The 6-player group used in some other games means you only need 75% as many tanks/healers to carry a given number of other players. It's a complicated enough issue that no single change is going to serve as a wonder remedy and fix it overnight.

[Zulnam]

Tanks have always been in short supply, in all versions of WoW.

It's the most stressful role, compared to the other two at least, so it's understandable.

Good DPS, however, can really ease a tank's job; so if you are thinking of playing one i strongly suggest you add good DPS players to your friends list.

[Rat2156]

me queue as dps, tank do hard work just for me to roll need against him
me charge mob packs the tank is trying to range pull and aggro another group in the process
me make party wipe

How is this so common xD

*twang* goes my bow
I hide behind the corner to los-pull the casters.
*whoosh* goes the dps warrior charging in
now the mobs stay around the corner and we have to fight there
inevitably a runner pulls another pack and we get close to a wipe or actually wipe

Just absolutely *love* it when that happens...

Bonus points for when they get upset about getting Blessing of Salvation instead of Blessing of Might, and then also get upset because they got aggro after bursting mobs you're currently LOS pulling.
There might be a reason why Warrior is one of the two classes that don't use Intellect as a stat

[Getplucked]

There is a lack of tanks because most people don't want the pressure/responsibility of being the "leader" of the group.

Even in retail, with a whopping SIX different tanks, there's still a tank shortage.

[Chronoslicer]

I love tanking in turtle wow. I lead and go at my and the healers pace, if the dps do something dumb, oh well, not wasting apm on their stupidity, ill prioritise the healer above all else. if the dps complain, oh well, what are they going to do?? Find another tank? LOL

[Sylveria]

i really like to tank, but the reason why i rarely queue up on LFT anymore is just, that the random dps-players were a pain. Impatient as hell, pulling more mobs, rushing forward, givin' a crap on aggro.. As a Tank it is my responsibility to keep the mobs away from my group, especially from my healer. But with attitude like that the tanks patience is tested to the limit. I can absolutely understand why tanks don't queue up in LFT anymore or switch to dps.
So dear DPS players: Please adapt to the pace of the tanks. They have big responsibilities. So it is YOUR responsibility to make tanking a nice experience, so they'll return to the LFT-queue.

[Elesion]

the random dps-players were a pain. Impatient as hell, pulling more mobs, rushing forward, givin' a crap on aggro..

I've recently had my first dps that started pulling mobs and running them back to me, seamlessly chaining packs to "speed things up" until everyone was completely oom and close to a wipe. And then they did it again on the next section of the dungeon. It kind of made me speechless. Where does this even come from? Is this something that is common in retail (haven't played since 2007) or maybe in certain regions? I've never seen it before and I ran a lot of dungeons on non-tank characters. Also, it was supremely unfun because it took all the agency out of tanking, I constantly just had to collect newly arriving mobs and thunderclap on cooldown. What a weird experience...

[Zulnam]

the random dps-players were a pain. Impatient as hell, pulling more mobs, rushing forward, givin' a crap on aggro..

I've recently had my first dps that started pulling mobs and running them back to me, seamlessly chaining packs to "speed things up" until everyone was completely oom and close to a wipe. And then they did it again on the next section of the dungeon. It kind of made me speechless. Where does this even come from? Is this something that is common in retail (haven't played since 2007) or maybe in certain regions? I've never seen it before and I ran a lot of dungeons on non-tank characters. Also, it was supremely unfun because it took all the agency out of tanking, I constantly just had to collect newly arriving mobs and thunderclap on cooldown. What a weird experience...

It would be a non-issue if summoning stones worked. DPS is a dime a dozen, but kicking one mid-dungeon, finding a new one and then waiting for them to make their way is very disrupting.

[Karrados]

Doing dungeons with 2 DPS is still very much possible and might even be easier if the third (and kicked) DPS was disruptive.

[Bob022]

Where does this even come from? Is this something that is common in retail (haven't played since 2007) or maybe in certain regions?

I've asked the same thing myself. Like you, I was away from WoW a very long time before joining T-wow. Coming from other games, the average skill level of random pick-up group players on T-wow ranks among worst I've ever seen in an MMORPG. I don't know what's going on here; it's a head-scratcher. It's easier to do instances with three or four people (family and friends) than trying to add randoms who more often than not only get in the way and cause problems.

[Drubarrymooer]

the random dps-players were a pain. Impatient as hell, pulling more mobs, rushing forward, givin' a crap on aggro..

I've recently had my first dps that started pulling mobs and running them back to me, seamlessly chaining packs to "speed things up" until everyone was completely oom and close to a wipe. And then they did it again on the next section of the dungeon. It kind of made me speechless. Where does this even come from? Is this something that is common in retail (haven't played since 2007) or maybe in certain regions? I've never seen it before and I ran a lot of dungeons on non-tank characters. Also, it was supremely unfun because it took all the agency out of tanking, I constantly just had to collect newly arriving mobs and thunderclap on cooldown. What a weird experience...

This is from the classic chads where speed and efficiency is king. Rather than having a relaxing, fun time in a video game, they turned it into a min/maxing, speedrunning stress fest. The irony is most people leave classic for this, the bots/boosting, and the toxic behavior, only to come here and recreate it. People rarely view themselves as the problem.

[Rat2156]

the random dps-players were a pain. Impatient as hell, pulling more mobs, rushing forward, givin' a crap on aggro..

I've recently had my first dps that started pulling mobs and running them back to me, seamlessly chaining packs to "speed things up" until everyone was completely oom and close to a wipe. And then they did it again on the next section of the dungeon. It kind of made me speechless. Where does this even come from? Is this something that is common in retail (haven't played since 2007) or maybe in certain regions? I've never seen it before and I ran a lot of dungeons on non-tank characters. Also, it was supremely unfun because it took all the agency out of tanking, I constantly just had to collect newly arriving mobs and thunderclap on cooldown. What a weird experience...

It would be a non-issue if summoning stones worked. DPS is a dime a dozen, but kicking one mid-dungeon, finding a new one and then waiting for them to make their way is very disrupting.

Honestly it's often better to just go with 2 DPS than to deal with someone like that.

[Trymv1]

Even in retail, with a whopping SIX different tanks, there's still a tank shortage.

Retail has been a DPS spreadsheet simulation for years now, of course theres a tank shortage.

Im honestly surprised Blizz didnt break the holy trinity and just do pure movement/healing mechanics and get rid of tanks at this point like Guild Wars 2 mostly did.

[Thornmail]

maybe im alone on this one, when i level a tank i will only ever end up running a dungeon once.
from my experience the optimal level for a tank will be about 3 levels below the highest level boss. (this is mostly to not stress out ur poor healer)
if you are about 3 levels below the highest level mob in there, the first half or more of the dungeon will be green/grey mobs and on top of that because of the lack of tanks most of the dps in your group will out level you bringing down the xp gains even further.

maybe a quest is the wrong idea off rip, it could be a buff that is applied to you when you are assigned the tank role and once you zone in to the dungeon you had queued up for?

my thought is that if you give tanks a little something extra it will push more players to try it out, as a bunch of you said its less about the difficulty and more about the pressure put on you by other players.

[Lasershadow]

/Whole Post

QFT. Bonus Points for video!

Honestly, at this point if getting tanks and heals is hard then maybe TWoW needs to add special flasks that increases threat and another healing by 1000% so even the most casual person could do either role.

Not ideal, but I can't think of a better idea. /shrug

[Gladeshadow]

I play HC and have a warrior that sometimes tanks. The same issues with dps exist in HC at 40+. Even healers can be an issue.

Ran Uldaman today with a group that included a warlock who liked to dot everything I was trying to tank and a druid who opened with ravage immediately after I began hitting a mob. So I’d of course need to to use taunt right after, leaving it a problem when other mobs would go to the warlock or the healer.

The healer was playing like we weren’t in HC, trying to conserve mana. I was routinely at 50% or less hp, which isn’t an issue I’d encountered with other healers. I used a health stone 3 times in the dungeon and a health potion, something that is quite rare for me. Even when told to begin healing earlier, the healer didn’t change their gameplay.

Tanking is truly a pain only when other players make it so. If a person wants more tanks, I suggest they educate other players on how to perform their roles as well. Say something when you see it, not leaving it to just the tank to educate others. It’s not fun and not rewarding to tank for players who have no idea how to do dungeons, which seems to be a sizable portion of players.

[Boras]

I play HC and have a warrior that sometimes tanks. The same issues with dps exist in HC at 40+. Even healers can be an issue.

Ran Uldaman today with a group that included a warlock who liked to dot everything I was trying to tank and a druid who opened with ravage immediately after I began hitting a mob. So I’d of course need to to use taunt right after, leaving it a problem when other mobs would go to the warlock or the healer.

The healer was playing like we weren’t in HC, trying to conserve mana. I was routinely at 50% or less hp, which isn’t an issue I’d encountered with other healers. I used a health stone 3 times in the dungeon and a health potion, something that is quite rare for me. Even when told to begin healing earlier, the healer didn’t change their gameplay.

Tanking is truly a pain only when other players make it so. If a person wants more tanks, I suggest they educate other players on how to perform their roles as well. Say something when you see it, not leaving it to just the tank to educate others. It’s not fun and not rewarding to tank for players who have no idea how to do dungeons, which seems to be a sizable portion of players.

You can't fix stupid and by extension, you can't fix the morons on this server. The quickest learning experience is being kicked for being disruptive and not listening and ending up on the ignore list. Perhaps the reason why people are complaining lately that there are no tanks is because these are the shitters who ended up on everyone's ignore list lmao