Suggestion: Seal of Crusader

[Shoc]

I want to make a suggestion for Paladins:

Make Crusader Strike stacks on the target bypass DMG reduction of Seal of Crusader.
Currently its 40% i believe, and 60% attack speed buff on max rank.For example, make it so, it bypasses SoCru dmg reduction about 5% per stack of Crusader Strike on the target.
With Seal of Crusader its useless to use Crusader Strike, as its only buffing spell dmg.
Also make it so, Seal of Crusader dmg reduction only applies to normal attacks, so it doesnt nerf Holy Strike dmg.
It feels punishing to use Holy Strike with Seal of Crusader up.

Currently Seal of Crusader is just used to proc stuff, and isnt as viable for dmg.

I believe this change would make PVE physical ret paladin more viable, while leaving Seal of Command alone for PVP.

Maybe you can build this effect into Heart of the Crusader talent, with a 1%/3%/6% scaling

[Geojak]

Seal and judgement of crusader sjoild be usefull, indepedant of weapon, from lvl 4 when you get it, while leveling.
I don't mind how but the current way it is, it can not stay

[Ravenstone]

Seal and judgement of crusader sjoild be usefull, indepedant of weapon, from lvl 4 when you get it, while leveling.
I don't mind how but the current way it is, it can not stay

Agreed, though I obviously favour returning the original JotC. The current JotC is awful on so many levels.

[Wrathweaver]

I know people, they will never go back on this.
It would suprise me a lot if they did.

A leader can only go forward and crush all resistance, a step back would be to admit fault and be self defeating for themselves and their reputation as strong.
Would be seen as a weakness from the wider community of players that seek strenght and stability.
I know a lost cause when i see one.

You cannot change human nature, the evolutionary neurological adaptations that has always worked since the beginning of time is perfect from a survival perspective.

[Shoc]

I know people, they will never go back on this.
It would suprise me a lot if they did.

A leader can only go forward and crush all resistance, a step back would be to admit fault and be self defeating for themselves and their reputation as strong.
Would be seen as a weakness from the wider community of players that seek strenght and stability.
I know a lost cause when i see one.

You cannot change human nature, the evolutionary neurological adaptations that has always worked since the beginning of time is perfect from a survival perspective.

My suggestion is a step foward, rather than back. We dont need old JotC, it was trash, and made no sense with Crusader Strike. This is what would make rets make sense, and would fix this nieche, dead skill.

[Ravenstone]

We dont need old JotC, it was trash, and made no sense with Crusader Strike.

It is hilarious to me that the defence in getting rid of the old JotC was because CS existed...

[Geojak]

So with 5x crusader strike on target, my, seal of crsuadee would have 40% - 5*5% = 15% reduced dmg per swing with 60% haste?
That could be good still worse, than SoR but workable.

Isn't it currently thought 60% haste and 60% lower dmg. Meaning no real, benefit? Of it was actually 40% that woild be news to many

Personally I would like something less percentage based and more directly involving the applied crusader strike rank and debuff height so rank 1 or 5 makes a difference . Not sure what

[Darg727]

We dont need old JotC, it was trash, and made no sense with Crusader Strike.

It is hilarious to me that the defence in getting rid of the old JotC was because CS existed...

kek. It's really funny because the only reason the old JotC sucked was A) debuff limit and B) paladins/holy priests aren't allowed to be dps by the greater meta meme gatekeepers. They got rid of A after the change and aren't motivated on any time scale relevant to a player to address B.

[Wrathweaver]

I know people, they will never go back on this.
It would suprise me a lot if they did.

A leader can only go forward and crush all resistance, a step back would be to admit fault and be self defeating for themselves and their reputation as strong.
Would be seen as a weakness from the wider community of players that seek strenght and stability.
I know a lost cause when i see one.

You cannot change human nature, the evolutionary neurological adaptations that has always worked since the beginning of time is perfect from a survival perspective.

My suggestion is a step foward, rather than back. We dont need old JotC, it was trash, and made no sense with Crusader Strike. This is what would make rets make sense, and would fix this nieche, dead skill.

The weapons proc thing was aimed primarily on lvl 60 raiding content.
If there are certain things that make it very hard for raiders, whatever it is, it must be lvl 60 content.
Now all ranks since rank 1 seal of the crusader has been changed to a very weird thing, on lvl 6.

Going further down this "dead skill" mindset is what blizzard did, vanilla paladin is gone.
Edit: would like to add that i dont have a huge issue with new abilities like proc, as long as baseline idea of paladin stays intact.
But proccing cannot be part of judgement of the crusader.

[Shoc]

But proccing cannot be part of judgement of the crusader.

Yeah, 100% aggree on the proccing thing. Why is "proccing your weapon" becoming paladin class identity? When was this a thing? If you ask me, This should be part of a shamans arsenal, they are the weapon enhancers after all.
This whole thing came off of paladins were "nightfall bots" and wasnt useful. I dont know why they embraced this.

But I'm just trying to roll with stuff, that TWOW already implemented, and im trying to bring this skill in a usable state.
My change would simply merge the use of crusader strike into Seal of the Crusader, make it not debuff Holy Strike, it would be intuitive, and would make sense to use.
And fits "Heart of the Crusader" "Crusader Strike" Seal of the Crusader". This would make the abilities work together.

I dont really mind the judgement itself, but the interaction between Crusader Strike and the Seal is non existent atm.

[Ravenstone]

But proccing cannot be part of judgement of the crusader.

Yeah, 100% aggree on the proccing thing. Why is "proccing your weapon" becoming paladin class identity? When was this a thing? If you ask me, This should be part of a shamans arsenal, they are the weapon enhancers after all.
This whole thing came off of paladins were "nightfall bots" and wasnt useful. I dont know why they embraced this.

In every thread I've been in and asked the question "how does this make any sense thematically for a Paladin to do this" I've never had a response. I agree it does make far more sense for a Shaman because at least you can argue they can tune in with the Spirit of the weapon, but mechanically it is just awful to relegate one class to the default Nightfall bot. You also can't add any new cool procs because you'll always have to consider how it can be abused by the current JotC.

make it not debuff Holy Strike

I wasn't aware it reduced Holy Strike damage, but if yes, they really missed an opportunity there...

The thing that really annoys me, is that rather than improving the old SotC/JotC, they just pulled a fast one and gave us two terribly implemented spells... and then had to do this whole exercise of 'fixing' the OP weapons that they overlooked when creating JotC. I've never said the old SotC/JotC was in a good place, but this current shit is just so badly done.

[Geojak]

How about this
1. Seal of crsuadee:
Increase your meele attackpowe by x (unchanged) and receive 5% bonus attackspeed per crusader strick stack on your current target.
The current base attackspeed bonus and dmg reduction is scrapped

2. Judgement of crusader
Instantly strikes the target plus one extra (cleave) causing holy dmg equal to 45% weapon dmg plus a sp coefficient + a base bonus dmg value like warrior cleave has that increases by rank to promote using max rank
(dmg calculated like Soc procc)
Custom Proccing shenagians are removed.

No this is not a pvp buff. Because SoR will do more dmg still

[Ravenstone]

2. Judgement of crusader
Instantly strikes the target plus one extra (cleave)

Why a cleave? I don't like giving classes new AoE/cleave stuff. I've yet to hear a compelling reason as to why any class needs more. Paladins already have Consecration.

Regarding the Seal, I like the idea as well as OP's idea. Though my preference would be to remove CS altogether. I still don't feel like Paladins really needed the old JotC Holy damage increase aspect removed from it. JotC was always used, SotC was just underwhelming and unsynergistic. Even just giving JotC some Holy damage would've made it worthwhile to continue using SotC. With the Holy Strike change OP suggested, there would be even more benefit to continuing to use SotC with its original debuff, whilst keeping the original Paladin toolkit intact.

[Shoc]

How about this
1. Seal of crsuadee:
Increase your meele attackpowe by x (unchanged) and receive 5% bonus attackspeed per crusader strick stack on your current target.
The current base attackspeed bonus and dmg reduction is scrapped

2. Judgement of crusader
Instantly strikes the target plus one extra (cleave) causing holy dmg equal to 45% weapon dmg plus a sp coefficient + a base bonus dmg value like warrior cleave has that increases by rank to promote using max rank
(dmg calculated like Soc procc)
Custom Proccing shenagians are removed.

No this is not a pvp buff. Because SoR will do more dmg still

This is very far from the original idea, pala also already doesnt need any cleave, whatsoever.
Also, i dont think attack speed against a target would be feasable. Dmg numbers are easier to tweak, than attackspeed depending on your target. feels clunky as heck.
I also cant imagine how would the judgement work as a strike. This is bleeding from many angles.
Lastly, we already have 2 holy dmg seals, and your idea wouldnt make SoCru its unique own thing.

[Wrathweaver]

Copy paste the original jotc and make it stack with crusader strike as before.
That is the simplest solution and i think that is the only realistic option since its alot of work to do all this.

Dont agree with crusader strike and at least think it should have a cooldown.
I think jotc should be buffed instead to replace crusader strike as debuff.
Holy strike is thematic and fine for me as a design, but if possible should refresh judgement like a normal attack.

Edit: forgot to mention that im fine with proc weapon stuff if players want it, i dont like it or think it fits with paladin, but its fine if its a new spell and nothing of the original spells is removed.
In general, new spells if changes are to be made, no removals.

[Geojak]

How about this
1. Seal of crsuadee:
Increase your meele attackpowe by x (unchanged) and receive 5% bonus attackspeed per crusader strick stack on your current target.
The current base attackspeed bonus and dmg reduction is scrapped

2. Judgement of crusader
Instantly strikes the target plus one extra (cleave) causing holy dmg equal to 45% weapon dmg plus a sp coefficient + a base bonus dmg value like warrior cleave has that increases by rank to promote using max rank
(dmg calculated like Soc procc)
Custom Proccing shenagians are removed.

No this is not a pvp buff. Because SoR will do more dmg still

This is very far from the original idea, pala also already doesnt need any cleave, whatsoever.
Also, i dont think attack speed against a target would be feasable. Dmg numbers are easier to tweak, than attackspeed depending on your target. feels clunky as heck.
I also cant imagine how would the judgement work as a strike. This is bleeding from many angles.
Lastly, we already have 2 holy dmg seals, and your idea wouldnt make SoCru its unique own thing.

You are right it's not perfect.
The reason I think jidgemt of crusader needs, to deal dmasge itself is otherwise it will never be feasible alternative to SoR and Soc. And the force proccsing, well I rly dislike that it's weapon dependant. I would prefer something indepedant that actually works while leveling

[Shoc]

How about this
1. Seal of crsuadee:
Increase your meele attackpowe by x (unchanged) and receive 5% bonus attackspeed per crusader strick stack on your current target.
The current base attackspeed bonus and dmg reduction is scrapped

2. Judgement of crusader
Instantly strikes the target plus one extra (cleave) causing holy dmg equal to 45% weapon dmg plus a sp coefficient + a base bonus dmg value like warrior cleave has that increases by rank to promote using max rank
(dmg calculated like Soc procc)
Custom Proccing shenagians are removed.

No this is not a pvp buff. Because SoR will do more dmg still

This is very far from the original idea, pala also already doesnt need any cleave, whatsoever.
Also, i dont think attack speed against a target would be feasable. Dmg numbers are easier to tweak, than attackspeed depending on your target. feels clunky as heck.
I also cant imagine how would the judgement work as a strike. This is bleeding from many angles.
Lastly, we already have 2 holy dmg seals, and your idea wouldnt make SoCru its unique own thing.

You are right it's not perfect.
The reason I think jidgemt of crusader needs, to deal dmasge itself is otherwise it will never be feasible alternative to SoR and Soc. And the force proccsing, well I rly dislike that it's weapon dependant. I would prefer something indepedant that actually works while leveling

If you would understand what am i saying in my original post, Seal of Crusader, the way i suggested it, would be more than feasable in raids. Do you know the weight of bypassing some of the DMG reduction on auto attacks, and bypassing it completely on Holy Strike means? Maybe my numbers are a bit overtuned, i dont know, some tweaking is required, but it would make physical paladin builds more viable. Right now the way is going spell power and Pummeler, wich is very wierd.

[Geojak]

Let's assume the seal is changed ecatly as you proposed.

Physical paladin uses seal of crusader. Now he wants to judge. His judgment does nothing with most weapons In the game like might of menethil as an example for best physical weapin.

If he used seal of rigehness, maybe his seal dmg would be lower than the changed seal of crusader. But atleast you get some 500+ judgement dmg every 8 seconds.

Your proposal is good. Maybe you also have an idea for a reworked judgmenrt?

[Ravenstone]

The only Seals that will ever be used multiple times in a row for DPS are the ones that their Judgements do damage (ignoring the current insane JotC). I'm in agreement with Geojak here that this needs to happen for SotC to be used. Otherwise you might as well just wait for SotC to expire, or use a completely different Seal to judge on cd.

I don't think it needs to be anything fancy like a cleave, just straight holy damage like JoR.

I'd prefer Judgement to do damage every time regardless of the Seal used. Allows you to use any of them more viably.

[Shoc]

Let's assume the seal is changed ecatly as you proposed.

Physical paladin uses seal of crusader. Now he wants to judge. His judgment does nothing with most weapons In the game like might of menethil as an example for best physical weapin.

If he used seal of rigehness, maybe his seal dmg would be lower than the changed seal of crusader. But atleast you get some 500+ judgement dmg every 8 seconds.

Your proposal is good. Maybe you also have an idea for a reworked judgmenrt?

I mean you already have buttons to press, and with not having to judge, will free up more crusader strikes for WF procs or something. I didnt plan to remove or rework the corrent judgement, you can judge if your weapon has some proc effect, like dmg, or a buff. This judgement is a reliable way to keep up Crusader from weapon all the time for example.
Also this would make it somewhat unique from other seals.
With command it deals more dmg to stunned targets, and stacks with SP, and AP.
Rightousness simply deals dmg, but only scales from SP.
Seal of Crusader judgement.. maybe not even judge the seal, or use it to keep up weapon enchantment.

[Ravenstone]

will free up more crusader strikes for WF procs or something.

It shouldn't even proc WF, that's what it said in the patch notes when introduced. Not that they've cared to fix it.

[Shoc]

will free up more crusader strikes for WF procs or something.

It shouldn't even proc WF, that's what it said in the patch notes when introduced. Not that they've cared to fix it.

Its a melee strike. Why shouldnt it proc WF? Then why does Sunder Armor and Hamstring proc WF for warriors too? They arent meant to deal dmg after all.
Paladins cant have their fun can they?

[Ravenstone]

will free up more crusader strikes for WF procs or something.

It shouldn't even proc WF, that's what it said in the patch notes when introduced. Not that they've cared to fix it.

Its a melee strike. Why shouldnt it proc WF? Then why does Sunder Armor and Hamstring proc WF for warriors too? They arent meant to deal dmg after all.
Paladins cant have their fun can they?

Are you asking me or questioning why the Devs said that?