Less talked retcon about thalassian elves

[Feebas233]

As the forum is currently talking about high elves being underdeveloped and several community members offering to volunteer with quests and possible future story, I would like to share my two cents with everyone.

One of the less talked retcon about Thalassian elves is that Blizzard writers try to damage previous thalassian elves and alliance relationship as much as possible by antagonizing alliance and completely retconing WC2 lore. My guess is that writers were trying to push 'blood elves joining Horde' narratives and trying to pull out artificial reasoning to make sense of their non-sensical lore decision to put blood elves into Horde.

Retail lore is pretty messy and it get worse overtime. Even in TBC, a large portion of lores were retconned, creating many inconsistencies and gaps. Many people remember Chris Metzen with rose-tinted lens, but he was one of the people responsible for many major lore mess up around TBC and WOTLK era.

Lets look at one of major retcon.
In retails, writers have said Thalassian elves never have good relationship with human and Alliance. King Anasterian Sunstrider don't give a single damn about helping the human in second war and stated many high elves repulse at sights of human, seeing them as inferiors. Retail lore said thalassian elves are grudgeful and don't forget wrongs humans have inflicted blood elves under Garithos's command.
So we are supposed to believe these grudgeful elves supposed to forgive orcs, trolls and undead easily after second and third war? Please don't say Horde is different from second war horde. Many orcs who participated in burning of Eversong and onslaught of high elven population there are still in the modern Horde. In retail, elves conveniently forget that.
Retail lore said blood elves accepted forsaken because they broke free from Scourge.
At the same time, retail lore said human initially rejected forsaken's attempt to reach out to them because human are fearful of undead so much that chance to talk was never possible.
Writers expected us to believe blood elves wouldn't be suspicious of forsaken who claimed themselves free? Even with Sylvanas being former hero, why would elves trust her after she participated in destruction of Silvermoon under Scourge control.

Before the retcon, in Warcraft II Tide of Darkness. High elves seem to have amicable relationship with alliance. They may or may not be as close as dwarves or gnomes to human, but i don't see any major indication that high elves are cold or hostile toward Alliance.
Let me copy some text from WC2

"Chapter 2: Ambush at Tarren Mill
The mysterious Elves of Silvermoon have sent a contingent of Archers south to survey the supposed Orcish threat for themselves. Our spies report that shortly after passing through the Alterac grasslands the Elves were ambushed by Horde troops. It is believed that these Elves are now being held in a small prison camp near the northwest region of Tarren Mill. Lord Terenas, fervently hoping to enlist the Elves into the Alliance, has asked that you search for the missing warriors and deliver them to safety. The Elves have sent a cadre of Archers to assist in your quest. You will also be provided with plans to construct an Elven Lumber Mill and the sylvan craftsman to operate it."

"Chapter 3 : Southshore
With the safe return of the Elves from the loathsome clutches of the Orcs, the Council of Silvermoon has resolved to combine the armies of Quel'thalas with those of the Alliance of Lordaeron. As a show of their support, a mighty fleet of Elven Destroyers have been sent to help safeguard the Lordaeron mainland"

it was pretty clear in Second War that high elves have been fully coordinating with Alliance even before the attack on Quel'thalas. Until Blizzard fully retconned that it was just Alleria and her rangers who went against their king's order and high elves basically did nothing before Horde attacked Quel'thalas.
It is a pretty major retcon that Blizzard conjured to make sense of their TBC dramatic lore decision.

I don't know whether Turtle devs take pre-TBC lore of '"high elves were always cold and look down on Alliance races" narrative or WC2 lore. I think it will have impacts on tone of the future high elf story.
I also feel sorry for devs that they have to handle lore mess of TBC errors and try to correct it. I also would like to hear your opinion about this. Please let me know what you think. Sorry for this long write and some grammar issue as english not being my first language.

It is true that the retconning of the Thalassian elves' relationship with the Alliance and the rewriting of Warcraft II lore have been a point of contention among Warcraft lore enthusiasts. The decision to have the blood elves join the Horde was a significant shift in the narrative, and some feel that the retcon was an attempt to justify this decision.

The retail lore can be messy and convoluted at times, with various inconsistencies and contradictions. The writers may have made certain decisions to serve the needs of the game's story or gameplay mechanics, which may have resulted in some inconsistencies or retcons.

Regarding the Thalassian elves' relationship with the Alliance, the Warcraft II lore suggests that the high elves had a cooperative and amicable relationship with the Alliance, as you mentioned. Still, the retcon in later expansions portrays them as being more aloof and distant towards the Alliance, primarily due to the events of the Second War.

The developers of Turtle WoW may choose to take either the pre-TBC or the WC2 lore as the basis for their interpretation of the Thalassian elves, depending on their creative direction and narrative goals. It is essential to note that any changes or adaptations they make to the lore should respect the existing Warcraft canon and be coherent with the game's overall story.

In conclusion, the retconning of Thalassian elves' lore and relationship with the Alliance has been a point of discussion among Warcraft fans. While the retail lore can be messy at times, it is up to the developers of Turtle WoW to decide which version of the lore they want to follow and how they will integrate it into their game's narrative.

As one of the comments pointed out, retcon pretty much started in WC3. Still very strange decision lore wise to 360 relationship of high elves to Alliance though seems like very much Metzen-thing as he tend to bend his own lore without setting up believable setup even in his golden age of WC3 and early WoW.
Then TBC happens, writers villain-batted Alliance for no setup, no reasons just for fan services. Turns out distorting your own lore and bending your principles have lasting damages upon WoW for years to come. Many TBC lore retcon still have serious impacts on retail lore

About Turtle, I like narratives of high elves so far. I guess Second War story will play very minor role here as story of high elves will be mainly about rebuilding and future. Whatever action they take, i will be fine with it i think.

[Jongyi]

In Metzen's defense, Todd have a complete control over TES lore and setting of openworld sandbox rpg allow more creativity to be used freely.
But for Metzen, it often indicate that he didn't have absolute control over lore direction of WoW and MMORPG setting limits its freedom.
Many of wow's lore major lore decisions (such as blood elves to horde) were often prioritized on 'printing money' than setting good foundation for world buildings, story telling and consistency.
One trickery thing is about lore for long-running story like WoW is once you fuck up one major lore/story points, you have to pull make ups/ bullshits from your asses just to justify your failures.
And these makeups/ retcons often mess up your story more than fixing it.
That is why we see whenever Blizzard tries to justify their lore failures (blood elves to Horde, burning of Tel'drassil in retail, lately shadowland, sylvanas etc, list goes on), it become messier, felt forced, fake and artificial.

WoW writers excuse of not being able to make good story in MMO setting fell flat when FFXIV manage to tell a good and coherent story without having to rely on external sources.
Even ESO does better job in story telling than wow writers

Like i said, WoW has been out for long. Unfortunately for WoW, it also has many 'shaky' foundation like decision to add blood elves to horde and retconing eredar into sassy goat people. Shaky foundations only make shaky structures and final product. Devs back in old WoW days prioritized printing money than solid world building. While it make WoW very successful in short terms, it creates irreversible damages upon lore and story telling. A lot of Retail lore suffered from these shaky foundations and poor world buildings.
You are not wrong about Metzen though. He was pretty good in nurturing warcraft world. But many of modern WoW lore problems come from his poor decisions, his ( and his team) choice to prioritize short-term profit over setting up foundations of world buildings.
From what i have heard from FFXIV, their story telling team already have principles, guidelines for story. Early expansions of FF are purely about world-buildings and setting up foundation. It made a slow, sluggish start in ARR but it later pay off as story and world building escalated in Heavnwards, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. They didn't make any glaring mistakes in early parts of story telling like WoW writing team did with TBC.

[Rukopashka]

In Metzen's defense, Todd have a complete control over TES lore and setting of openworld sandbox rpg allow more creativity to be used freely.
But for Metzen, it often indicate that he didn't have absolute control over lore direction of WoW and MMORPG setting limits its freedom.
Many of wow's lore major lore decisions (such as blood elves to horde) were often prioritized on 'printing money' than setting good foundation for world buildings, story telling and consistency.
One trickery thing is about lore for long-running story like WoW is once you fuck up one major lore/story points, you have to pull make ups/ bullshits from your asses just to justify your failures.
And these makeups/ retcons often mess up your story more than fixing it.
That is why we see whenever Blizzard tries to justify their lore failures (blood elves to Horde, burning of Tel'drassil in retail, lately shadowland, sylvanas etc, list goes on), it become messier, felt forced, fake and artificial.

WoW writers excuse of not being able to make good story in MMO setting fell flat when FFXIV manage to tell a good and coherent story without having to rely on external sources.
Even ESO does better job in story telling than wow writers

Like i said, WoW has been out for long. Unfortunately for WoW, it also has many 'shaky' foundation like decision to add blood elves to horde and retconing eredar into sassy goat people. Shaky foundations only make shaky structures and final product. Devs back in old WoW days prioritized printing money than solid world building. While it make WoW very successful in short terms, it creates irreversible damages upon lore and story telling. A lot of Retail lore suffered from these shaky foundations and poor world buildings.
You are not wrong about Metzen though. He was pretty good in nurturing warcraft world. But many of modern WoW lore problems come from his poor decisions, his ( and his team) choice to prioritize short-term profit over setting up foundations of world buildings.
From what i have heard from FFXIV, their story telling team already have principles, guidelines for story. Early expansions of FF are purely about world-buildings and setting up foundation. It made a slow, sluggish start in ARR but it later pay off as story and world building escalated in Heavnwards, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. They didn't make any glaring mistakes in early parts of story telling like WoW writing team did with TBC.

It's true that WoW has made some questionable decisions when it comes to lore and world-building, and these decisions have had lasting impacts on the game. However, it's also important to note that WoW has been around for a long time and has a vast amount of lore and history. While some decisions may not have been ideal, the overall story and world-building of WoW is still beloved by many players.

As for FFXIV, it's true that the game has a strong emphasis on story and world-building, and the development team has been praised for their attention to detail and consistency in storytelling. While FFXIV had a slow start, the game has steadily built up its lore and world-building over time, leading to some truly epic storytelling in later expansions.

Ultimately, both WoW and FFXIV have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to lore and world-building, and it's up to each individual player to decide which game resonates more with them.

[Jongyi]

WoW writers excuse of not being able to make good story in MMO setting fell flat when FFXIV manage to tell a good and coherent story without having to rely on external sources.
Even ESO does better job in story telling than wow writers

Like i said, WoW has been out for long. Unfortunately for WoW, it also has many 'shaky' foundation like decision to add blood elves to horde and retconing eredar into sassy goat people. Shaky foundations only make shaky structures and final product. Devs back in old WoW days prioritized printing money than solid world building. While it make WoW very successful in short terms, it creates irreversible damages upon lore and story telling. A lot of Retail lore suffered from these shaky foundations and poor world buildings.
You are not wrong about Metzen though. He was pretty good in nurturing warcraft world. But many of modern WoW lore problems come from his poor decisions, his ( and his team) choice to prioritize short-term profit over setting up foundations of world buildings.
From what i have heard from FFXIV, their story telling team already have principles, guidelines for story. Early expansions of FF are purely about world-buildings and setting up foundation. It made a slow, sluggish start in ARR but it later pay off as story and world building escalated in Heavnwards, Shadowbringers and Endwalker. They didn't make any glaring mistakes in early parts of story telling like WoW writing team did with TBC.

It's true that WoW has made some questionable decisions when it comes to lore and world-building, and these decisions have had lasting impacts on the game. However, it's also important to note that WoW has been around for a long time and has a vast amount of lore and history. While some decisions may not have been ideal, the overall story and world-building of WoW is still beloved by many players.

As for FFXIV, it's true that the game has a strong emphasis on story and world-building, and the development team has been praised for their attention to detail and consistency in storytelling. While FFXIV had a slow start, the game has steadily built up its lore and world-building over time, leading to some truly epic storytelling in later expansions.

Ultimately, both WoW and FFXIV have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to lore and world-building, and it's up to each individual player to decide which game resonates more with them.

I still love WoW, well most of WoW, lore and world building or else i wouldn't be looking back at them fondly
I basically grow up with WoW since i started playing WC3 to WoW in teenage years. As I grow older, i became disenchanted with many lore decisions they have made (TBC is worst), but i still love many of them
I am no longer impressed by WoW after SL and Dragonflight, but i am still interested in seeing how lore fans take care of things differently (such as Turtle)
To conclude, I still love wow but i am far more interested in seeing how dedicated fans do things with lore than putting my faith on modern Blizzard who became souless entity

[Talenne]

Funny enough I'd say Draenei aren't that weird of a fit, being largely blue with a strong focus on Light and Paladins and all that noble courageous stuff. They would have made an excellent Alliance race had they not relied on retcons to justify their existence or if they were strongly developed before being made into a playable race.

And that's honestly been the biggest problem with introducing new races into the Alliance, whether that's draenei, or worgen, or void elves, they all run way too much on rule of cool and nothing substantial.

[Bittermens]

That is interesting. I was never aware of that since i haven't play WC2

I must admit tone of their relationship is pretty different between WC2 and TBC.

You are right about Chris Metzen though. People tend to remember him fondly but they forget that even his story, characters were wildly inconsistent between each other. (except for Thrall green jesus).
Retail and Marvel lore shares a lot of parallel come to think of it. Both of them didn't make them much but still enjoyable, but both of them become still not making sense and no longer enjoyable.

Chris Metzen NEVER wrote anything for WoW after vanilla, same goes to the likes of Mike Morhaine or Samwize didier.
All were sidelined by Tom "tim willits clone" Chilton and the Everquest Hires like Dave Kosak, Furor Afrasabi and Tigole Bitties who didn't played or help with warcraft 3 development.

If anyone wants to take a look at how different wow was, Pre Alpha was sill the og blizzard's baby, Alpha was EQ hires an onwards.
John Staats made an entire book about the development, everything was rushed to meet the 2004 Christmas season.

[Feebas233]

That is interesting. I was never aware of that since i haven't play WC2

I must admit tone of their relationship is pretty different between WC2 and TBC.

You are right about Chris Metzen though. People tend to remember him fondly but they forget that even his story, characters were wildly inconsistent between each other. (except for Thrall green jesus).
Retail and Marvel lore shares a lot of parallel come to think of it. Both of them didn't make them much but still enjoyable, but both of them become still not making sense and no longer enjoyable.

Chris Metzen NEVER wrote anything for WoW after vanilla, same goes to the likes of Mike Morhaine or Samwize didier.
All were sidelined by Tom "tim willits clone" Chilton and the Everquest Hires like Dave Kosak, Furor Afrasabi and Tigole Bitties who didn't played or help with warcraft 3 development.

If anyone wants to take a look at how different wow was, Pre Alpha was sill the og blizzard's baby, Alpha was EQ hires an onwards.
John Staats made an entire book about the development, everything was rushed to meet the 2004 Christmas season.

A lot of people see Metzen responsible for a lot of wrong doings of lore. I sometimes feel Metzen was not willing with some of the controversial changes and retcon but he was powerless to stop it. But he still get a lot of hate bcos he was face of the team.